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Old 02-12-2008, 08:21 AM   #91
Olinlore

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After the flood of comments from various illusionists that actually play the game, im just curious about why the dev that developed the weapon hasnt commented on why this is best weapon attainable at lvl 80 for the class for use in groups, throughout the whole game in its current state. (cant remember the exact PR promotional terms used to sell the epics)

Guess the silence speaks volumns here, with the exception the proc is group wide (which isnt referred to on the weapon anyways .. says on caster) and should help others i dont know, as power for others in any groups im in never seems to be a problem, even in the longer raid fights with mana flow, savant, percolate, mana shroud, extract mana, manatap, shards, hearts and all the power regen equipment rok brought in with it. (Illys have power coming out of their ears as it is for themselves and others). Presumably any weapon should assist in damaging to be effective not adding further to something that is already in abundant supply as it is ... lol half our spells seem to be battery related exaggeration i know but why on earth would any think from the above list we'd need even more.

Sadly this has taken me back to my Star wars galaxies days after playing this game in bliss for a year or so, there in that game the devs too completely failed to pay attention to their player base or communicate with their concerns leading to disasterious consequences. 

In that game the devs asked for their player base to put forward ideas and wish lists for their prospective professions and then after presumably reading all that was put forward went directly against the majority wishes put forward without feeling any need whatsoever to explain to there paying customers why. It cost them alot in the end and they promised they had learnt from it. Please do not make the same mistakes in this game, to me its brilliant and has been to this point.

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Old 02-12-2008, 09:57 AM   #92
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Olinlore wrote:

Sadly this has taken me back to my Star wars galaxies days after playing this game in bliss for a year or so, there in that game the devs too completely failed to pay attention to their player base or communicate with their concerns leading to disasterious consequences. 

That was horrid, but I feel the same way and commented it too in another post.  It is not quite to that extreme yet, but customer service and responses have been getting worse and worse.  I am scared for the direction that they are about to go.
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:50 PM   #93
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Has anyone seen or heard a responce from the derv about our overwheling disapointment with our epic?

 how had is it to say:

we read  your post and are taking things into consideration?

or we realize alot of you are disapointed

or anything at all?

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Old 02-12-2008, 06:00 PM   #94
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How about:

We realize you are all dissappointed with your epic. We hope that some of you will reroll as troubadours.

WARNING: This was satire. I actually am happy with EQ2, and with my illusionist. I just don't like the epic. SMILEY

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Old 02-12-2008, 06:53 PM   #95
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This epic is totally worthless and a real disapointement. Like all else stated before we don't need help to enchant groups power.

And even less do we need help to maintain power ourself. All serious illusionist can maintain power with FT/power proc items/savante/mana cloak etc etc. Not only for ourself but for our group.

 Give us a dmg proc please, this proc is about equal as good as t8 power drain adornment. What a joke.

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Old 02-12-2008, 07:44 PM   #96
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Have to add my tuppence to all the other illusionists disappointment.This really is poor and i truely hope it gets changed.
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:58 PM   #97
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I got my whacking stick today, Glad to announce its tucked away in the bank :/

Edit* There is so much in combat power regen armour since RoK this is the most useless weapon FACT.

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Old 02-12-2008, 09:12 PM   #98
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I think we flew by something that Blink of Nagafen mentioned.  SOE looks at the numbers and there just aren't that many Illusionists left.  Their rate of caring is directly proportional to the number of people that play that class.  Lets look real quick though at why so few people play Illusionists. 

 When we started the game it was great, TONS of people playing the class, having fun but we really hadn't hit raid content yet.  As soon as that happened we found out that we couldn't do any form of crowd control, stun, stifle or really effect a fight in any useful way other then buff haste and auto follow.  Back then power regen meant a little.

 When they finally did give us the ability to do our primary skills, they of course nerfed them to hell and back.  We got a 10sec mez followed by a minute and a half immunity, the stifle didnt't work at all and the stun for a WHOLE second and a half meant immunity for a minute.  More people leave the class for assassins, rangers, warlocks (amazing that their epic and assassin epics rock and a lot of devs play them, coincidence I am sure)

 KoS and EoF give us some AA abilities and we adapt to at best be bad wizards but we do have some buffs so guilds keep one of us around.  We still loose more and more players to the other power classes.  There was a bright shining moment when one of our spells had meaning on a fight - The Matron but as soon as the devs found out we had value.... NERF THAT!!!

Now it is RoK and we can be decent DPS with some buffs that help the raid but our numbers have gotten so low that SOE really doesn't care anymore.  The proof of that is that the haste cap isn't changed plus all the melee classes can self buff or with limited gear reach that cap.  Our Savante goes unchanged but we still hold back hope for the epic weapons. The Epics come out and we are dumped on once again.  This weapon screams, "we ran out of time so we put no thought into this at all."  Is SOE so scared that we might be useful that they can't throw us a bone at all.

 WE ALL KNOW THAT THE ENCHANTER WAS OVERPOWERED IN EVERQUEST ONE!!!!!!!!   But if I am seeing things correctly we just got our FOUR year veteren reward.  Get over it already, EQ1 is ancient history and I am tired of paying for your mistakes in a whole different game.  It is time to balance this class compared to others.  I know we may not play the characters the dev team has chosen to play but we still PAY the same amount a month as every other class. 

 I am offended that they continue to dump on the class I chose and that I love.  I am offended that they took all our feedback on two sets of forums, here and flames but gave us the one thing we clearly voiced we didn't want in our epic.  I am the most offended however that you one, seem to be more concerned with deleting posts and silencing those that are unhappy and two, choose to ignore us on these forums.  You can't tell me that in a weeks time the whole dev team was sooooo busy that you couldn't take a few minutes from your day to make a post. The only post we get is one to clarify a proc that you screwed up in the wording.  If your excuse was you were too busy fixxing broken quest mobs then my question is this, why you didn't you test it before you released it?  I mean, you promised us epic weapons when we PAID for RoK and here we are three months later so what is another week?  You have already failed in what you promised, get it right on release.

 I am sure this post will be erased too because I am not happy but I am really sick of being the Dev's punching bag.

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Old 02-13-2008, 05:12 AM   #99
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Well add me to the list.Just completed the quest, equiped it, took a look at my char with it... and two minutes later dropped it in the bank.Sigh, even the graphic is poor, no animation, no particule effect, not even good to show while afk in qeynos harbor.Only one effect on it while most epic have 2, no spell damage. And most of the time, if someone in my group is runing out of mana, it's mainly the healer, which won't have any use for this effect.Very disapointed ...And while i 'am only raiding protector atm , i have no problem to finish the fight without going oom starting at 30%.
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:51 AM   #100
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Just saw the mythical version (which I won't be getting prolly in years). It's nice that the personae pet doesn't take conc slots with it, at least some additional dps from that. But with the group rapidity it's all too clear what's being expected from us... I don't think illys with the mythical epic will be put in the mage group on raids any more.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:26 AM   #101
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   People love to complain...   I for a change will say i absolutely love the illy mythical item (fabled is decent too). Yes, it give more to the group and raid in general, but we are bloody enchanters, not sorcerors. It also means I will actually be able to use me group buffs, which I use like once a year (with one conc slot for group rapidity and none for personae - rest is tandem and maybe group buffs). The pet in pvp and heroic pve is quite a nice addon - more personal dps, more stuns, stifles and dazes on mobs, more encounter damage etc.   We can also use our melee line niceley now and dont have to use any other power gain items than the mythical, burning all spells at will, no time wasted to play the two power gain spells.Please do stop complaining about everything. Great job on the illy weapon devs.Hazimel
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:38 AM   #102
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Well now I've seen our mythical I don't really know what to say, except having run a few numbers the power proc is going to be on all the time =) Think I'll put that in a different thread.Don't know how effective having the pet up during raids is going to be. I imagine it will die a lot and add very marginal dps, anyone ever tried using our pet against a rok epic and have any numbers? Also its stun casting is going to activate stun immunities a lot I figure. Still its a nice bonus, maybe.Group haste + da for all the melee is nice if you are melee group thats all, and therefore only good for 1 illu on raid. No good for caster groups, so kiss all the caster buffs you normally have goodbye as you get moved to melee group. Those in a non melee group then 1 effect of the epic is no use at all. A very 2 edged sword.

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Old 02-13-2008, 08:49 AM   #103
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ok the fabled version was not that good (ill probably use it untill i have plamsa wand). So a had still my hopes up for the mythical version.

The mythical version is to stupid for words. Getting it is pretty much shooting yourself in the leg. The weapon is a nerf to the illu class by its self.

youll get back araound 1k power every 15sec. youll be my god if you can keep your power under 30% with that SMILEY

with the improvement of owr melee buff we will get put in to the melee group what will kill owr dps.

the only good thing is that we can use owr pet. the only bad thing about this is that owr pet sucks balls. the only good time to use your pet is when you are in a caster group because of all the buffs but with the new melee buff this is not goign to happen.

so to sum it up when you use the mythical:

spec str get some str gear and melee crit gear put on auto attack and go afk SMILEY

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Old 02-13-2008, 04:10 PM   #104
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Image:Eye of the Siren mythical.jpg

Soooo, Coercers now can help transfer hate and add damage to a tanks taunts.  They also get a reduction of ALL SPELL TIMERS by 10%.  Chance to reduce power cost of Entire group by 20%.  Mana Flow is group wide (which in case you are in a mage group equals to about 1k mana per person, 6k total) and duration is shorter, meaning you can cast it faster.  Pffft....they even get more INT and WIS then we do...sad sad sad ;(

Point #1 : Who in there right mind would want ANY ILLY over a coercer?  They can totally reset a mob (Vyemm anybody?), proc utter insane mana regen and less power cost AND help the tank keep aggro.  Illy get to do what? 

Point #2: Who in there right mind would pull the dirge/troubador out of the scout group and install a crappy Illy?  We would give them a haste buff.....OMG.......WOW.......A HASTE BUFF........We're uber.......NOT!  pulling the bard out would greatly lower DPS of that group, cause that group would LOSE all the other great stuff that bard has to offer them.

Point #3: Removes concentration cost of our pet.  Although this is a nice gesture, do you really think this will make up for your loss of DPS?  Do you really think having a pet makes you a viable raid member either for Support OR for DPS?  NOT IMPRESSED!

Point #4: So, so so many mana regen items in this game, WE DON"T NEED IT!  If we're hurting that bad for mana, we'll pull a bard, they have better support abilities anyway ;(  Screw the Illy.........AGAIN!

Point #5: Obvoiusly no Dev or anybody watches this post.  Almost all other classes (including Coercer) have their Epic info "Sticky" to the top of the forums.  We however are still fighting to get any smidgen of response to this useless weapon and why they didn't consider the fact that THEY THEMSEVLES HAVE FORCED US TO BE DPS!!!!  Through their own lack of better judgement or planning or understanding.....whatever the case......they have placed so many items and given OTHERS so many of our abilities, that we are useless if we cannot DPS now!

Again, I've seen too many other classes that can regen mana just fine without us, mez mobs (even a bruiser with an INT of 68 can do this.....Shocked? NOT!).....and have absolutely no need for crowd control OR (now) our DPS SMILEY

This illy is going to the back burner YET AGAIN......and moving to the 80 Assassin in order to still attend raids and be "Needed" in almost any circumstance.  Useless little Illy is now on the back burner where the Devs can finish frying him up and serving him to the nearest grey con SMILEY

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Old 02-13-2008, 04:56 PM   #105
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Hmm, the Mythical weapon is fine.  One of the better epics... Useful buff (which applies to us and our pet), frees up Conc Slots (more Tandem to be passed out), added DPS with pet (/pet range is great... Wizard proc buffs, Raid Wide PotM / Aria)... and people picking Coercers over us? lol.   Post like the last are the reason WHY Devs ignore many threads like this...  If you're going to complain at least know your stuff. 
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:41 PM   #106
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Mythical is just fine. wel the power regen proc on mythical is still worthless but still.

fabled is terrible still and i hope u swap out that lame drain and replace with a dmg proc. Like EVERY OTHER NON HEALER got apart from .... enchanters. Even troubas got dmg procs and they are support class last time i looked.

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Old 02-14-2008, 12:03 AM   #107
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Well, The Mythical version is far more worthwhile than the Fabled version (but then that's not saying much).

Switching the current Fabled effect with either of the Mythical effects might even make the Fabled version useful for people not in raiding guilds.  That might be the simplest way to 'fix' the Fabled version.

The mana proc is still going to be a pain with VM, dunno what to do.  Drop Percolate?  I guess there's always the sprint key.

But as previously stated, this epic is something of a class nerf for raiding Illusionists.

Lots of guilds currently would like 2 Illusionists, and a typical setup has a mage DPS group and a scout DPS group, one in each.

Guilds with one Illusionist are going to love this.  Stick the Illy with the scouts and they can still buff the mages. Win/win (except for the Illusionist, who will never get grouped with a Troub again).

Guilds with 2 Illusionists are going to start wondering why they need the 2nd Illy at all.  If your personal DPS doesn't make the grade, you'll be out on the street.  And this epic still doesn't help our personal DPS all that much.

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Old 02-14-2008, 04:00 AM   #108
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I do like the mythical version of our weapon,the sad news is I will never get it,which means I am stuck with fabled which is really not impressive at all-i do wish they would fix the fabled one to be a bit more useful for so many illys who willnever get the mythical one.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:33 AM   #109
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Belizarius wrote:

Well, The Mythical version is far more worthwhile than the Fabled version (but then that's not saying much).

Switching the current Fabled effect with either of the Mythical effects might even make the Fabled version useful for people not in raiding guilds.  That might be the simplest way to 'fix' the Fabled version.

The mana proc is still going to be a pain with VM, dunno what to do.  Drop Percolate?  I guess there's always the sprint key.

But as previously stated, this epic is something of a class nerf for raiding Illusionists.

Lots of guilds currently would like 2 Illusionists, and a typical setup has a mage DPS group and a scout DPS group, one in each.

Guilds with one Illusionist are going to love this.  Stick the Illy with the scouts and they can still buff the mages. Win/win (except for the Illusionist, who will never get grouped with a Troub again).

Guilds with 2 Illusionists are going to start wondering why they need the 2nd Illy at all.  If your personal DPS doesn't make the grade, you'll be out on the street.  And this epic still doesn't help our personal DPS all that much.

I have to say the pessimist in my agrees with this analysis. We'll just end up a scout buff bot with dps which will be a complete pain to maintain with the power proc and the agi 30% aa. Add this to the only way to maintain our dps is to spam spells endlessly to keep the cast speed buff running and i am wondering why anyone will raid anymore. Do Soe even thing these through?
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:47 AM   #110
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I am cool with the epic.... not everything is about you.  Think about how much DPS the raid will gain and not your own numbers.

 You also need to look at how all the epics interplay with each other.  PoM is raid wide now with troub epics, and they will have theirs before you since we need silverwing.  If you are a lucky guild that has two troubs alternating... awsomeness no matter what group you are in.  Buffing a whole group of scouts with not only the haste but more double attack and still being able to buff a few mages out of group is awsome too.

The two things they need to look at if they are going this route is... the range on the group buff is WAY too short (like 20 meters) and the power proc should give power to the whole group.  I never have personal power problems.

I bet if the extra damage from the buffs got attributed to your own personal numbers on ACT, most of the complaing would disappear.  At the same time, take all that bard buff damage and attribute it to the bard.

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Old 02-14-2008, 12:17 PM   #111
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Both the Fabled and Mythical procs are group... and pretty sure they work on all spells, CAs, etc.  The range definately should be the same as the single target Rapidity, probably an oversight, but most Illusionists with this would be spec'd Str due to the weapon ratio and the fact that the rapidity buff will also affect the Illusionist so I don't think it'll be a huge issue. 

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Old 02-14-2008, 12:32 PM   #112
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Oh cool then, the text had me confused. 

I thought about the strength line a little also since dirge CoB is also raid wide now and I will have the the haste and double attack buff too.  I am still one kill away from the mythical, so I have some time. 

I am curious on how the pet will do in a raid with all the buffs, I am sure it will be dead allot, but its still a no loss situation by having it up while it last. 

They do need to do something with the heroic version.  I could see being a little dissapointed if I wasn't in a VP flagged guild.  But as a raid weapon to be used on raids, it isn't bad.  Just because it doesn't put a  big arrow over yoru head and demands people look at you and burns your screen name into their monitor... doesn't mean its a bad weapon.

BTW, I have absolutaly no problem at all staying under 30% with the proc up.

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Old 02-14-2008, 01:25 PM   #113
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just to clarify i do not have the mythical version of the epic yet our guild is just now moving to T3 so it could be some time befor i get it.

now that that's clear from looking at the effects on the mythical i view this item as a nerf to the illusionst class it is going to force us into mele group and even with raid wide pom we are going to loose out on alot of buffs. basicly we are going for the mage group where we gave and recieved buffs perty evenly to the scout group where we will reciever no buffs at all.  also i believe the power proc buff is going to hurt us when trying to keep our power below 30% we are going to spend less time spaming spells and more time hitting the sprint button. i know mihos said he was not having problems keeping his power below 30% but he also said he was not useing the mythical yet. can someone who is using the epic varify how it impacts VM.

There is no denying that the haste buff on the epic is a great buff but it screws over the illusionst.. every other class has effects that are Good if not great binifit for there class.

the power proc is crap... replace it with DD proc that adds an amout of mana to the group kind of like the necro orb from forsaken city but group wide mana proc

The no con slot for the pet is ok but does not even come close to returning what we will loose by being forced into mele groups.

Over all the absolute best part of our epic is the quest itself and soe finaly giving us the new illusions we have been screaming about for YEARS.  Hopefuly it will not take that long for changes to be made to our epic weap (group and raid version)  If those changes do not come soon (by the time i get my raid version) i think it will be time for me to put my Illy on the shelf and make my assassin alt my new main.  to be honest as time goes on i have a harder time understanding why there is even an illusionst class in this game.  60% of our spells only work on Trash mobs in rok and those same spells that do not work on named in rok are basicly worthless in raids with the reduced effect and long imunity timers. like someone else said soe turned us into weak sorc that can buff now with this epic forcing us into mele group our dps is going to drop below dirges and bisicly turn is into afk buff bots Woot WTG. at leaste i wont have to feel bad about puting my illy on the shelf my guild can just box and illusionst to get basicly the same effect

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Old 02-14-2008, 09:41 PM   #114
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Mihos wrote:

I am cool with the epic.... not everything is about you.  Think about how much DPS the raid will gain and not your own numbers.

 You also need to look at how all the epics interplay with each other.  PoM is raid wide now with troub epics, and they will have theirs before you since we need silverwing.  If you are a lucky guild that has two troubs alternating... awsomeness no matter what group you are in.  Buffing a whole group of scouts with not only the haste but more double attack and still being able to buff a few mages out of group is awsome too.

The two things they need to look at if they are going this route is... the range on the group buff is WAY too short (like 20 meters) and the power proc should give power to the whole group.  I never have personal power problems.

I bet if the extra damage from the buffs got attributed to your own personal numbers on ACT, most of the complaing would disappear.  At the same time, take all that bard buff damage and attribute it to the bard.

/shrug

My guild currently raids with two Illusionists.  With the epics,  if you have a scout group and a mage group, the 2nd Illusionist will now contribute relatively little in terms of DPS buffs.   In the mage group, all you would really add is power, I guess it depends how badly your mages do on power (and never mind Percolate, if they have a Troub in group anyway their regen is easily capped with gear).  I guess it comes down to how badly your mage group will need that group power proc.

Otherwise I don't see how they could justify having two epic Illusionists on the raid unless we are parsing up there with the other DPS classes.  The 2nd Illusionist spot will be competing for a DPS spot.  In fact you will be competing directly with sorcerors and summoners for a spot in the mage group.  In that scenario, it is about me and there isn't much here that is helping my DPS.  Okay, I can now run my pet, assuming I can keep keep it alive, as we don't get pet heals.

Oh, and as for overlapping PotM, I doubt that many raiding guilds can justify a 2nd Troub either unless they have 2 mage groups.  But that's okay, the scout group Illusionist spot is pretty well guaranteed.

In fact, that's the irony of this.  The only way a 2nd Illusionist is easily justified in terms of raid DPS is if you have two mage groups, in which case the group haste is irrelevant!

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Old 02-14-2008, 11:19 PM   #115
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Group Tandem on the Fabled version and Group Haste on the mythical should prove very very usefull, id be happy to loose the power proc for this.
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Old 02-15-2008, 12:22 AM   #116
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Got my fabled version yesterday, tried it out in group (what its designed for), only change I noticed in play was dps drop. Power issues as always, none for the group, and keeping to 30% power is so ingrained anyway that the power proc just means directing power a bit more every so often through mana flow or sprint. It's now siting in my inv and I'm back to the normal weapon I use, because group dps increses and we do stuff quicker. Guess I'll hotbar it to quick swap it in, for those once in a blue moon, arghhh add number 7, 8, 9 moments. Disappointed my be-all-and-end all weapon for t8 grouping is relegated to my inventory and hotbar.
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Old 02-15-2008, 12:44 AM   #117
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My preferences/thoughts

at least swap the Fabled power proc effect with either of the other Mythical effects.  Given a choice I'd vote for the pet effect to be on the Fabled version, could be nice for groups.  Don't mind keeping the power proc as one of the Mythical effects, just not on the fabled version.

at very least, have the pet effect also remove epic control spell immunity timers from spells cast by the pet so our own epic control spells don't become even more useless..

Add something to the power proc that makes it just a little more valuable to the Mage DPS group. Perhaps based on Fleeting thoughts, time compression or tandem.

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Old 02-15-2008, 11:45 AM   #118
Latpow

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Many guilds run with 2 Troubs / 2 Dirges... Having a Scout / Pred, Illu, 2 Sorc / Summoners, Fury / Inq (Devotion w AA)... works great.  Not to mention more Jester's Cap and Countersong.  It's rare that we have a "pure" mage group... there's always at least a Ranger, Brigand, or Assassin in there with us for melee buffs + Proc buffs.
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Old 02-15-2008, 08:05 PM   #119
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Just got my fable version - sorely underwhelmed... very poor compared to other classes epics. Can tell what the devs play..
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:42 PM   #120
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The fabled version is nto very good at all..what chanter needs a power proc?

The Mythical version, which you have to raid to obtain, is not very beneficial to a raiding chanter. Unless of course you don't mind the raid mobs being immune to stuns, stifles, root snd dazes almost non-stop. Granted some fights this is not an issue..and certainly on trash mobs it's not an issue..but on many named it IS an issue, and stunning/stifling must be done at certain times. It just seems silly to me to give us a raid obtained weapon, that won't really benefit us on raids. The only aspect of the mythical version that's of any real benefit to a raiding chanter is the change to rapidity.

All in all, very disappointed

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