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Old 02-11-2008, 06:25 AM   #31
Alienor

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At least with respect to this coercers get some love. They definitely do not have the "easy button", nor do they get some love or anything different than the nerf bat.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:50 AM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:
yomazaho wrote:
Our "epic" weapon is so horribly disappointing. I wouldn't wear it even w/ the fact it is a group proc.We get one effect to everyone else's two (conjuror's get three) and power regen is such a non-factor in groups. In raids I have had to ask our healer to take off their belt which procs power to group members as it was pushing me over the 30% mana for VM. Then you go ahead and give us an item that would do the same thing. To top it off we would have to give up the DPS from our current weapons.
um, every epic I'm looking at gets 1 effect. conjurer get 1 effect. it's called Inferno. it is a DoT that boost critical hits, that lasts for 12 seconds.Now let me get this straight. Illys and coercers got a power regen proc. you use your spells, you get a boost in power for you/your group. you don't like it, because you wanted a dps jump, and going above a certain point in your mana pool lowers your dps. you do realize that you are not a primary dps class. you are a support class. your function is to provide power regens/hate/haste/dps buffs to others, and crowd control. your DPS is supposed to be second to that. heaven forbid they actually took that into account making your epic weaponI'm not going to say that it's not messed up or a weak weapon or whatnot. I'm just saying that an enchanter isn't usually grabbed for thier dps. they are grabbed for thier buffs/mezzing ability.that's like me being a paladin expecting to get groups as a secondary/backup healer. sure I can do the job, and do it well. but I am a tank. that is my primary function, and that is what I expect my epic to help with. one of your major support roles is power regen. your epic procs a group power boost. I don't see the part where 'the devs must not know our class'. just because you choose to put DPS before support, doesn't mean the devs think that DPS should be the big thing for you.

Rainy, you are totaly off base and wrong in your assumptions. you must not know the illusiosnt class. A well played and smart illusionst that knows the class is T1 dps on par with Socr/summoners when it comes to dps Illusionst are Dps first suport second. granted we have good buffs but that doesnot make us a buff bot .. the ability to parse 3.5-4k zone wide and higher for the very top end illusionst makes us Dps. just because you dont know what an illusionst is realy capible of doesnt give you the right to belitle the class and say we are wrong for being disapointed in the power proc we are given.. if you did know about illusionst you would know that we want our power to stay below 30% and that alone makes this power poc a hinderance to our class not to mention we have tons of skills alreay built in to add power to ourself/group and that makes the proc redundent and useless

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Old 02-11-2008, 12:27 PM   #33
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Our Coercer was the first character on Venekor to get his Epic, two days ago. In the time since he got it we've been all over, had a raid, been to Chardok a bunch, been to Sebilis. Hours of gameplay. It's procced three times. Not only is the proc useless, it never ever goes off. I finished my Berserker epic on the same day as he finished his. Meanwhile our assassins are 20 plat down and are only about half way through theirs. It's really not fair. The only truly hard part of my quest (other than the ring event at the end) was finding things through the utterly opaque hints the quests gave me, but now we've done it and it's up on EQ2I this isn't going to be true of any future berserkers. Why does the assassin epic cost 20 plat, and mine is free?
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Old 02-11-2008, 12:31 PM   #34
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I've seen Illusionist's boasting that they are T1 dps first and utility second in half a dozen separate posts/ areas. Seriously, just because you can, doesn't mean you should be. As a ranger I'd give anything to claim to be T1 dps 'first' and a utility class 'second'. Good lord, best of all worlds right there! It gets funnier everytime I read another illusionist boasting to do 4k zonewides and good illusionists doing even better.

Keep boasting! Maybe SOE will hear you. Nerfs inc.. 

Don't you know never to boast about something that is absolutely fooked up. It's only been about a year since illusionists figured out they could use their AA with the 30% thing to skyrocket their dps. Now, all of a sudden, that is your primary role in the game? To dps?? They already hit the coercers pets and warlocks props. Are you guys just asking to get in line? What a silly thing to do.

Anyway, kudos for better dps than many true DPS classes and tons and tons of utility to go with it. All of that and you cry for *more* dps. On top of that you try to play off your job onto your groups.I've seen it said: Well, if they really need mana they can pick up some of the *bountiful* mana proc items in this expansion? Are you kidding me?

Here's the deal: the rest of the group (5 individuals besides the illy) should not have to give up their classes stats to pick up mana proc items. You can't seriously think that healers should give up + heal crits, or rangers + range crit in a slot or 3, so that you can do more dps for yourself?  Illusionists have actually said that group members should provide their own regen via item procs. Is this  so they can continue climbing that dps ladder? There are so many things wrong with that and apparantly everyone but the Illy's see it.  

Funny posts guys, keep em coming. SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

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Old 02-11-2008, 12:36 PM   #35
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I was originally in agreeance with the illies that said there fabled epic proc was crap - until I realized that it was a proc for the entire group and not just the illy.  I love illies.  One of my favorite things about them is their ability to keep a groups mana up in a long fight (isn't the only thing I like about em, but definately on up there).  To whoever asked if someone ever wiped because the illy ever ran out of power....well, no, but I have seen wipes because the rest of the group ran out of power.  This just helps that.  It's nice for grouping.  Very nice I think.

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Old 02-11-2008, 12:44 PM   #36
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Stinky123 wrote:
I agree, in fact I am very close to canceling all of my accounts, sure I have other toons of other classes, but my illusy is my main and basically his epic is complete junk.  Like I said in another post, i figured the "heroic" version may not be as good as WoCP considering thats pretty hard to top, but i mean COME ON, grizzlefazzles is WAY better then this pos and I could get that in 30 mins over a year+ ago.
Wow, your considering canceling over a weapon...Maybe it is time you moved on?
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Old 02-11-2008, 05:02 PM   #37
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[email protected] wrote:

I've seen Illusionist's boasting that they are T1 dps first and utility second in half a dozen separate posts/ areas. Seriously, just because you can, doesn't mean you should be. As a ranger I'd give anything to claim to be T1 dps 'first' and a utility class 'second'. Good lord, best of all worlds right there! It gets funnier everytime I read another illusionist boasting to do 4k zonewides and good illusionists doing even better.

Keep boasting! Maybe SOE will hear you. Nerfs inc.. 

Don't you know never to boast about something that is absolutely fooked up. It's only been about a year since illusionists figured out they could use their AA with the 30% thing to skyrocket their dps. Now, all of a sudden, that is your primary role in the game? To dps?? They already hit the coercers pets and warlocks props. Are you guys just asking to get in line? What a silly thing to do.

Anyway, kudos for better dps than many true DPS classes and tons and tons of utility to go with it. All of that and you cry for *more* dps. On top of that you try to play off your job onto your groups.I've seen it said: Well, if they really need mana they can pick up some of the *bountiful* mana proc items in this expansion? Are you kidding me?

Here's the deal: the rest of the group (5 individuals besides the illy) should not have to give up their classes stats to pick up mana proc items. You can't seriously think that healers should give up + heal crits, or rangers + range crit in a slot or 3, so that you can do more dps for yourself?  Illusionists have actually said that group members should provide their own regen via item procs. Is this  so they can continue climbing that dps ladder? There are so many things wrong with that and apparantly everyone but the Illy's see it.  

Funny posts guys, keep em coming. SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15">

Once again another Non illusiont showing they no nothign about the class... Dps/suport means you use both, you totaly buff your group and keep mana flows /other feeds comeing whal doing very good dps at the same time. you assume the group has to loose buffs/suport for the illusiosnt to do good dps.. well thats totaly wrong. the good illusiosnt players i was talking about does both dps/suport to a high lvl.  I can under stand how people who play 1 dimentional character doesnt understand that so i wont bust your balls about it ... you do a good enough job at makeing your self look bad with your uninformed post and assumptions that are way off .... and as far as other classes having mana proc items.. come on how can you say thats a bad idea.. do they need to use them all the time no but there are situations that they will be usefull and should be used...bottem line is this and illusionst can only feed so much power there is a line where other classes need to take personal responsiblity for keeping there own power up

also where is this info that the proc works for the hole group..ive been testing mine and havnt seen anyone gain power other then myslef

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Old 02-11-2008, 06:18 PM   #38
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anyone got the monk epic? is it good?
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Old 02-11-2008, 06:23 PM   #39
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Slackerx wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

I've seen Illusionist's boasting that they are T1 dps first and utility second in half a dozen separate posts/ areas. Seriously, just because you can, doesn't mean you should be. As a ranger I'd give anything to claim to be T1 dps 'first' and a utility class 'second'. Good lord, best of all worlds right there! It gets funnier everytime I read another illusionist boasting to do 4k zonewides and good illusionists doing even better.

Keep boasting! Maybe SOE will hear you. Nerfs inc.. 

Don't you know never to boast about something that is absolutely fooked up. It's only been about a year since illusionists figured out they could use their AA with the 30% thing to skyrocket their dps. Now, all of a sudden, that is your primary role in the game? To dps?? They already hit the coercers pets and warlocks props. Are you guys just asking to get in line? What a silly thing to do.

Anyway, kudos for better dps than many true DPS classes and tons and tons of utility to go with it. All of that and you cry for *more* dps. On top of that you try to play off your job onto your groups.I've seen it said: Well, if they really need mana they can pick up some of the *bountiful* mana proc items in this expansion? Are you kidding me?

Here's the deal: the rest of the group (5 individuals besides the illy) should not have to give up their classes stats to pick up mana proc items. You can't seriously think that healers should give up + heal crits, or rangers + range crit in a slot or 3, so that you can do more dps for yourself?  Illusionists have actually said that group members should provide their own regen via item procs. Is this  so they can continue climbing that dps ladder? There are so many things wrong with that and apparantly everyone but the Illy's see it.  

Funny posts guys, keep em coming. SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15">

Once again another Non illusiont showing they no nothign about the class... Dps/suport means you use both, you totaly buff your group and keep mana flows /other feeds comeing whal doing very good dps at the same time. you assume the group has to loose buffs/suport for the illusiosnt to do good dps.. well thats totaly wrong. the good illusiosnt players i was talking about does both dps/suport to a high lvl.  I can under stand how people who play 1 dimentional character doesnt understand that so i wont bust your balls about it ... you do a good enough job at makeing your self look bad with your uninformed post and assumptions that are way off .... and as far as other classes having mana proc items.. come on how can you say thats a bad idea.. do they need to use them all the time no but there are situations that they will be usefull and should be used...bottem line is this and illusionst can only feed so much power there is a line where other classes need to take personal responsiblity for keeping there own power up

also where is this info that the proc works for the hole group..ive been testing mine and havnt seen anyone gain power other then myslef

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=406766

Aeralik wrote:

The wording on the proc is a bit confusing but that is a group power proc.  When you trigger the proc it puts a buff on each member of the group.  Each member then has their own temp buff with 2 triggers for power.  You guys might not have power issues but it will definitely help out your groupmates im sure which is a major role of the illusionist.
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Old 02-11-2008, 06:36 PM   #40
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[email protected] wrote:
I know that different devs made the different epics, considering groups of epics were around the same difficulty and length.Now why is it that the coercer epic, which has a power group proc, took 6 hours to finish apon release and the illusionist epic took 4 days, requires 2 of the biggest old world HQ camps, a trip to the very very bottom of Chardok, and spending over 3p on furniture (a step which is bugged and many have to do twice) get a lesser power proc.6 hours in comparison to a very very difficult 80+where does the symbol go <, >, =????Every class is happy with their epics aside from enchanters, maybe it's time to rethink what affects they get based on how difficult they are.  But I know no dev will read this because after patching something on friday that broke tons of mob respawn so most people can't do their epics, they just left it up and never even reset the server : However, I'm very glad many people are enjoying their epics

1) assassins fight an 85^^^ mob that requires a raid setup MT group on almost every step

2) we pay 20 plat for RoK faction items

3) our group epic is on par with t1 raid loot

4) it looks like a butterknife

5) we are not complaining

 enchanters are power management and crowd control. dps is optional and your epic reflects this.

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Old 02-11-2008, 06:47 PM   #41
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We only just found out it was a group buff.

Read the description and point to me where it says group, or casters group.

It doesn't.A developer had to clarify it for everyone.

And illusionists weren't the only ones saying it was garbage.Everyone in the dang 70's channel wouldn't shut up about how awful it was.Just ask for a link and get 20 messages about how you don't want to see it... and no link.I have never been invited to a group for DPS alone.I may have filled a DPS slot, but I have never been there for my amazing damage.That probably goes for most illusionists.If an illusionist out parsed you, you don't need to contribute an entire post about how upset you are SMILEYGood for him/her.

I'm happy that our Epic effect is a group buff.The wording on the item itself is not accurate/correct.

Now, get this conversation back to

Unbalance between different Epics.

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Old 02-11-2008, 06:52 PM   #42
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Xandis wrote:

We only just found out it was a group buff.

Read the description and point to me where it says group, or casters group.

It doesn't.A developer had to clarify it for everyone.

And illusionists weren't the only ones saying it was garbage.Everyone in the dang 70's channel wouldn't shut up about how awful it was.Just ask for a link and get 20 messages about how you don't want to see it... and no link.I have never been invited to a group for DPS alone.I may have filled a DPS slot, but I have never been there for my amazing damage.That probably goes for most illusionists.If an illusionist out parsed you, you don't need to contribute an entire post about how upset you are SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />Good for him/her.

I'm happy that our Epic effect is a group buff.The wording on the item itself is not accurate/correct.

Now, get this conversation back to

Unbalance between different Epics.

Hehe, I agree there - even without playing a high level illy I thought it was junk before I saw the dev clarification. 

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Old 02-11-2008, 06:57 PM   #43
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Illusionists are and have been dps classes for some time.  Ours have parsed atleast top 10 for a long, long while.There have been several nerfs that lowered them some, but generally they still do good dps.  In fact it is expected of them, just as its expected of every class in a raid to maximize dps.  Utility is just laughable, epics just aren't effected by anything other than dps in a manner that is very significant.   As such all classes spec to the pattern that makes the most impact.  This is of course the illusionist dps spec.Why some people have a hard time understand those motivations, I can't say, but thats just the way the game is...
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Old 02-11-2008, 07:06 PM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:
Illusionists are and have been dps classes for some time.  Ours have parsed atleast top 10 for a long, long while.There have been several nerfs that lowered them some, but generally they still do good dps.  In fact it is expected of them, just as its expected of every class in a raid to maximize dps.  Utility is just laughable, epics just aren't effected by anything other than dps in a manner that is very significant.   As such all classes spec to the pattern that makes the most impact.  This is of course the illusionist dps spec.Why some people have a hard time understand those motivations, I can't say, but thats just the way the game is...

I can agree that every class should be contrbuting some amount of DPS - some more than others.  As long as it isn't to the detriment of other duties of the class in question.  In a situation where a group is running into power issues, then additional power procs will in fact add quite a bit to DPS tho - something to bear in mind.  Hard instances where an add sneaks in, easier raid settings run with non-raid guilds, and other situations can quickly lead to a lack of power by most or all of the group.  And in any situation where a group might run out of power, extra power is going to be more important than an illy parsing an extra 1 or 200 DPS.

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Old 02-11-2008, 07:29 PM   #45
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

I can agree that every class should be contrbuting some amount of DPS - some more than others.  As long as it isn't to the detriment of other duties of the class in question.  In a situation where a group is running into power issues, then additional power procs will in fact add quite a bit to DPS tho - something to bear in mind.  Hard instances where an add sneaks in, easier raid settings run with non-raid guilds, and other situations can quickly lead to a lack of power by most or all of the group.  And in any situation where a group might run out of power, extra power is going to be more important than an illy parsing an extra 1 or 200 DPS.

Agreed, if the group is low on power, and the illusionist can remain under 50% using the epic, then conditionally its a good item for them.  I'm sure they wanted their reward not to be a conditional upgrade, I know I did.However, it doesn't appear to be an item developed or spec'd by someone that understands and respects how the class is played.  I think the respect part goes a long way to why they are unhappy with their reward.  But honestly, they get crapped on by SoE dev's more than any class I know of, so I feel for em.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:48 PM   #46
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[email protected] wrote:

Anyway, kudos for better dps than many true DPS classes and tons and tons of utility to go with it. All of that and you cry for *more* dps. On top of that you try to play off your job onto your groups.I've seen it said: Well, if they really need mana they can pick up some of the *bountiful* mana proc items in this expansion? Are you kidding me?

Here's the deal: the rest of the group (5 individuals besides the illy) should not have to give up their classes stats to pick up mana proc items. You can't seriously think that healers should give up + heal crits, or rangers + range crit in a slot or 3, so that you can do more dps for yourself?  Illusionists have actually said that group members should provide their own regen via item procs. Is this  so they can continue climbing that dps ladder? There are so many things wrong with that and apparantly everyone but the Illy's see it.  

Funny posts guys, keep em coming. SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15">

Yay Meerah i ran into a im not support im dps type the other night, when he joined i thought woot  only to realise we were in a ring event and my power was going down the toilet because he seemed to thing mana buffs cut down on his dps, deserves to be flaied and hung alongside furies that dont heal.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:59 PM   #47
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Seriously those of you who dont play illusionists and knocking us for wanting something other than a power proc. Please go read the illusionist forums about this.

We can and do already provide power for a group with no problem whilst also bringing some nice dps.

The reason we are all so upset is that for the majority of illusionist power is a non issue to provide. For example, yesterday by the red gate in Chardok my group not knowing the zone well, started a fight against a 3mob. We got two social single mob adds, we then got 4 roaming adds, I started with 30% power and was still in power going strong as were my group when the last mob went down. Power no issue. My dps was fine, not uber, I was mezzing a lot. This included the tank going splat at the start, being res'd, whilst I maintained mezzes. I.e. the tank had minimal power.

As to this "Epic" weapon the proc on it will lower my dps and provide no extra dps for the groups I am in cos they dont run out of power anyway. Ending up at the end of a figt with 50% as opposed to 40% makes no difference.

Secondly we are mages, and therefore a dps class, be it primary or secondary function makes no difference we are epected to be able to dps. Equipping this lowers our dps and makes one of our most useful aa abilites worthless.

Thirdy they already nerfed that dps aa ability once (from a 30% increase to a 25% increase under 30% power). They also nerfed perpetuality before lowering our dps. We have had a lot of dps nerfs already and now if we equip this epic we get another.

Back on topic...

I also agree that there is some major imbalance between both the difficulty in obtaining these epics and the epics themselves.

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Old 02-12-2008, 12:46 AM   #48
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Livelyhound, I believe you, I do. But, I think that TC, IA, haste, power regen and crowd control is why raids ask illy's; not for their dps as so many claim. I have been in plenty of raids where groups literally FIGHT over an illusionist or two. Of course, most illy's get their way because they provide so much dps and utility and no-one wants to argue with them, and get 'mage' group set-ups.

So, what's this mean? Illy's pick mage set-ups; with troubs for de-aggro, furies/ inquis for more buffs, locks for props, etc, etc: leaving melee groups to bite the bullet. I've been in too many raids lately that stack 4 scouts, a zerker and inquis and say, "there, you have buffs". Why? Because stacking illy's, troubs and mages creates such bountiful dps for the illy's they FIGHT not to be in melee dps groups.

In the past I have joined raids mid-way and been put in with an illusionist who absolutely would not stop to buff me. Ask in group 5x , may I get haste and IA pls? No response and no buffs. Why? Because the Illy's dps might go down if they stop to buff a melee! Six pulls later, I wound up asking the raid leader to please ask the illusionist to stop and buff me. (This was in a past guild and not in BS btw).

I did go check illy's forums; as you asked. Found some even more interesting idealisms. Illusionists telling one another that they should be number 1 on mage parses and that if a summoner, wizard, etc are out parsing them, they are doing something wrong. See, the thing is, I don't think it was intentionally set-up to be that way. Yes, other mages have group buffs and utility too; but not nearly as much as an illusionist offers.

 I don't know. I guess I am just hopeful that gameplay will get back to the ways of old; where healers healed and tanks tanked and buffers/ crowd control worried about just that. Not every other post coming from a fury, or illus, or fighter screaming they don't do enough dps. True DPSr's have lost so much ground to the 'dps' healers, 'dps' fighters and 'dps' utility classes that I don't think it will ever be made back up. This, to me, is sad.

You have your perspective and I have mine. As a ranger, I'd like to be able to outparse healers and utility. In the EQ2 world that has become an opposing point of view. Maybe if they gave me the ability to haste/ IA myself, a power regen buff, and a mez I'd be happier being less than true dps. Until that happens, you won't find me on here consoling utility classes that have convinced themselves they were never meant to be more than dps.

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Old 02-12-2008, 02:12 AM   #49
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[email protected] wrote:

Livelyhound, I believe you, I do. But, I think that TC, IA, haste, power regen and crowd control is why raids ask illy's; not for their dps as so many claim. I have been in plenty of raids where groups literally FIGHT over an illusionist or two. Of course, most illy's get their way because they provide so much dps and utility and no-one wants to argue with them, and get 'mage' group set-ups.

So, what's this mean? Illy's pick mage set-ups; with troubs for de-aggro, furies/ inquis for more buffs, locks for props, etc, etc: leaving melee groups to bite the bullet. I've been in too many raids lately that stack 4 scouts, a zerker and inquis and say, "there, you have buffs". Why? Because stacking illy's, troubs and mages creates such bountiful dps for the illy's they FIGHT not to be in melee dps groups.

In the past I have joined raids mid-way and been put in with an illusionist who absolutely would not stop to buff me. Ask in group 5x , may I get haste and IA pls? No response and no buffs. Why? Because the Illy's dps might go down if they stop to buff a melee! Wound up asking the raid leader to please ask the illusionist to stop and buff me. (This was in a past guild and not in BS btw).

I did go check illy's forums; as you asked. Found some even more interesting idealisms. Illusionists telling one another that they should be number 1 on mage parses and that if a summoner, wizard, etc are out parsing them, they are doing something wrong. See, the thing is, I don't think it was intentionally set-up to be that way. Yes, other mages have group buffs and utility too; but not nearly as much as an illusionist offers.

 I don't know. I guess I am just hopeful that gameplay will get back to the ways of old; where healers healed and tanks tanked and buffers/ crowd control worried about just that. Not every other post coming from a fury, or illus, or fighter screaming they don't do enough dps. True DPSr's have lost so much ground to the 'dps' healers, 'dps' fighters and 'dps' utility classes that I don't think it will ever be made back up. This, to me, is sad.

You have your perspective and I have mine. As a ranger, I'd like to be able to outparse healers and utility. In the EQ2 world that has become an opposing point of view. Maybe if they gave me the ability to haste/ IA myself, a power regen buff, and a mez I'd be happier being less than true dps. Until that happens, you won't find me on here consoling utility classes that have convinced themselves they were never meant to be more than dps.

If you want us to be a utility class, then why do you have a problem with us getting something that provides actual utility.  Power proc != no more utility than we already have.  The issue isn't that it doesn't raise our damage.  The issue is that it quite literally does nothing for us that we can't already do without problems.  We have absolutely no need for any more power than we have because it does absolutely nothing when you don't run out to begin with.And to tell the truth, no I will not use the weapon if it does not at least match WoCP/Soulfire/Whatever in damage output.  I don't care how much "utility" it provides, I already have enough of that.
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Old 02-12-2008, 03:22 AM   #50
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Livelyhound, I believe you, I do. But, I think that TC, IA, haste, power regen and crowd control is why raids ask illy's; not for their dps as so many claim. I have been in plenty of raids where groups literally FIGHT over an illusionist or two. Of course, most illy's get their way because they provide so much dps and utility and no-one wants to argue with them, and get 'mage' group set-ups.

Totally agree, thats why we get spots but we also do dps as opposed to sitting there afk. Being a buff bot is not fun.

In the past I have joined raids mid-way and been put in with an illusionist who absolutely would not stop to buff me. Ask in group 5x , may I get haste and IA pls? No response and no buffs. Why? Because the Illy's dps might go down if they stop to buff a melee! Wound up asking the raid leader to please ask the illusionist to stop and buff me. (This was in a past guild and not in BS btw).

I always stop to buff it takes like no time at all, if they didnt that sucks and I'm sorry. The drop in dps for one fight to do that is nothing.

I did go check illy's forums; as you asked. Found some even more interesting idealisms. Illusionists telling one another that they should be number 1 on mage parses and that if a summoner, wizard, etc are out parsing them, they are doing something wrong. See, the thing is, I don't think it was intentionally set-up to be that way. Yes, other mages have group buffs and utility too; but not nearly as much as an illusionist offers.

Yeah I don't agree with their sentiments about top dps and couldnt believe it when I read it. Don't think we should have low dps all utlity because its just plain dull to play.

 I don't know. I guess I am just hopeful that gameplay will get back to the ways of old; where healers healed and tanks tanked and buffers/ crowd control worried about just that. Not every other post coming from a fury, or illus, or fighter screaming they don't do enough dps. True DPSr's have lost so much ground to the 'dps' healers, 'dps' fighters and 'dps' utility classes that I don't think it will ever be made back up. This, to me, is sad.

I would love to crowd control more, its what I love about this class and why I rolled an illusionist. Unfortunately most epics are immune for so long you can control them reliably. My longest of each on epics being 17.5 (2min30cooldown) adn 2.8 (25sec cooldown)secs respectively, giving 20sec control. In groups most groups dont like over messing and only want occasional multiple adds messed, 1 add and most groups dont want it messed, often the case with a 2nd add too. So CC wise the majority of what I do is stun, stifle, daze and COA is the only place thats really noticable, due to stoppign the curse.

You have your perspective and I have mine. As a ranger, I'd like to be able to outparse healers and utility. In the EQ2 world that has become an opposing point of view. Maybe if they gave me the ability to haste/ IA myself, a power regen buff, and a mez I'd be happier being less than true dps. Until that happens, you won't find me on here consoling utility classes that have convinced themselves they were never meant to be more than dps.

For rangers I totally agree, you should be able to outparse most other classes. I wish they would fix arrows for you (for example) and allow you to achieve the dps you deserve.

Anyways way off topic now =) I'd just like anythign other than a power proc. I'd be fine with more utility instead of a DD damage proc, but the added powerdoes no good at all. 

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Old 02-12-2008, 06:23 AM   #51
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Seems that there are a lot of non-illus who think we should have this proc. As it's been already said, they don't know the game mechanics of illus, and besides, does it really matter, if the illus themselves don't like the proc and won't use it, it will do no one any good!As for the people who flame here illus only trying to dps and forgetting all about utility, I found that horrible to read. First of all, I don't outparse wizards and other high dps mages (except ocaasionally on groups, not raids). I think there's something more wrong if I did, probably those other mages playing badly. I love to be in a mage group, since I buff mages very nicely, they're at least as happy to have me as a melee group and our buffs complement each other. But if the raid leader puts me in a melee group, I'll haste them (and illu arm one of them) and do my best there, but that's my only melee buff. Anyway, I'm trying to say I do my buffs for whoever is grouped with me. Horrible to hear that there might be illus that go pure dps and refuse to buff their group! I also take care of my groups' power needs (and I use VM myself), and guess what, if the raid for some reason starts to run out of power, the illu's group most likely will have the most power and not running out easily.We don't need this epic proc, nor do our groups. It's just sad if people think otherwise just because there's dps-mad illus who neglect their utility duty completely. Let me also say that I still aim to parse on top5 or near that on raids. If I parsed like a healer, I doubt I'd be asked to raid any more. My buffs aren't that precious and they don't increase the raid dps quite that much that I can forget dpsing. Also, a huge part of our damage comes from damage proccing items. Illus always look for these. We cast fast, but our spell damage is so small, our nukes do like 1K damage, so we wants procs on those and lots of spell crits too. The epic has 4% +spell crit. About the only good thing on it, but then again all the other classes have the same or equivalent. Staff of the Impaler has 1K DD proc, 4% crits, plus spell damage, huge amount of int, disruption... It's two handed but still beats 10 of these epic sticks, and from a quest you can do in an hour. You'd make everyone happy if you added some sort of damage proc...So there, major unbalance compared to other classes. I believe all other classes think their epic is better than some T6-7 legendary.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:14 AM   #52
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I've seen Illusionist's boasting that they are T1 dps first and utility second in half a dozen separate posts/ areas. Seriously, just because you can, doesn't mean you should be. As a ranger I'd give anything to claim to be T1 dps 'first' and a utility class 'second'. Good lord, best of all worlds right there! It gets funnier everytime I read another illusionist boasting to do 4k zonewides and good illusionists doing even better.

Keep boasting! Maybe SOE will hear you. Nerfs inc.. 

Don't you know never to boast about something that is absolutely fooked up. It's only been about a year since illusionists figured out they could use their AA with the 30% thing to skyrocket their dps. Now, all of a sudden, that is your primary role in the game? To dps?? They already hit the coercers pets and warlocks props. Are you guys just asking to get in line? What a silly thing to do.

Anyway, kudos for better dps than many true DPS classes and tons and tons of utility to go with it. All of that and you cry for *more* dps. On top of that you try to play off your job onto your groups.I've seen it said: Well, if they really need mana they can pick up some of the *bountiful* mana proc items in this expansion? Are you kidding me?

Here's the deal: the rest of the group (5 individuals besides the illy) should not have to give up their classes stats to pick up mana proc items. You can't seriously think that healers should give up + heal crits, or rangers + range crit in a slot or 3, so that you can do more dps for yourself?  Illusionists have actually said that group members should provide their own regen via item procs. Is this  so they can continue climbing that dps ladder? There are so many things wrong with that and apparantly everyone but the Illy's see it.  

Funny posts guys, keep em coming. SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />

This is really easy to say as a "pure dps" class - yes, pigeonhole enchanters into the support/utility position again and we'll get how many groups?  How often is CC really needed, or mana regen for that matter?  I can think of one instance in RoK where an enchanter is really needed for the utility (arguable since a good root class can accomplish the same thing).  The fact that we can put up decent numbers for dps allows us to fill a role in group even when we aren't needed for our utility.Just because illusionists want something that benefits them (rather than interfere with one of their primary AA skills) doesn't make them bad enchanters.  This is the EPIC and it should benefit the class wielding it first and foremost.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:25 AM   #53
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Livelyhound, I believe you, I do. But, I think that TC, IA, haste, power regen and crowd control is why raids ask illy's; not for their dps as so many claim. I have been in plenty of raids where groups literally FIGHT over an illusionist or two. Of course, most illy's get their way because they provide so much dps and utility and no-one wants to argue with them, and get 'mage' group set-ups.

So, what's this mean? Illy's pick mage set-ups; with troubs for de-aggro, furies/ inquis for more buffs, locks for props, etc, etc: leaving melee groups to bite the bullet. I've been in too many raids lately that stack 4 scouts, a zerker and inquis and say, "there, you have buffs". Why? Because stacking illy's, troubs and mages creates such bountiful dps for the illy's they FIGHT not to be in melee dps groups.

In the past I have joined raids mid-way and been put in with an illusionist who absolutely would not stop to buff me. Ask in group 5x , may I get haste and IA pls? No response and no buffs. Why? Because the Illy's dps might go down if they stop to buff a melee! Six pulls later, I wound up asking the raid leader to please ask the illusionist to stop and buff me. (This was in a past guild and not in BS btw).

I did go check illy's forums; as you asked. Found some even more interesting idealisms. Illusionists telling one another that they should be number 1 on mage parses and that if a summoner, wizard, etc are out parsing them, they are doing something wrong. See, the thing is, I don't think it was intentionally set-up to be that way. Yes, other mages have group buffs and utility too; but not nearly as much as an illusionist offers.

 I don't know. I guess I am just hopeful that gameplay will get back to the ways of old; where healers healed and tanks tanked and buffers/ crowd control worried about just that. Not every other post coming from a fury, or illus, or fighter screaming they don't do enough dps. True DPSr's have lost so much ground to the 'dps' healers, 'dps' fighters and 'dps' utility classes that I don't think it will ever be made back up. This, to me, is sad.

You have your perspective and I have mine. As a ranger, I'd like to be able to outparse healers and utility. In the EQ2 world that has become an opposing point of view. Maybe if they gave me the ability to haste/ IA myself, a power regen buff, and a mez I'd be happier being less than true dps. Until that happens, you won't find me on here consoling utility classes that have convinced themselves they were never meant to be more than dps.

Nice thoughts but I still have very bad memories of EQ with an enchanter that was turned into essentially a KEI bot.  No one wants to play a class that does nothing except buff - try it yourself, roll up an enchanter and just buff folks all day in every group, throw a couple of debuffs and a crappy nuke or two.  IF crowd control was more of an issue in the game, that would be different.  My early EQ enchanter days were awesome - I LOVE crowd control.  It was challenging and engaging and lots of fun.  There is little to NO crowd control needed in this game.  Our challenge and fun comes from trying to manage both our utility/support roles with the DPS role that is required if we're going to be more than mana batteries.There aren't enough enchanters in the game already, at least not on my server.  The reason is it wasn't a fun class to play for a long time and even thought we have more dimension now, it's still pulling teeth until you're raid level because no one wants you before that.  Nerf us back to utility (buff bot) without serious revamping to allow for more and useful crowd control and many will just jump ship.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:43 AM   #54
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You Illy's need to calm down. You want major unbalance...check out what theyve done to coercers since the time you all started realizing you could do "top teir" dps. You say you couldnt be just a utility buff bot? Well thats exactly what coercers are now. Even the coercer trademark skill, charming, has been nerfed to laughable levels now...and yet, you illy's want to moan about your epic proc? Okay...being used to your great buffs and top flite dps, come play a coercer for a day or two...then tell me you've been, "unfairly treated".

 You illusionists dont know just how good you have it...leave well enough alone...trust me, it could all be far worse for you...you could be a Coercer.

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Old 02-12-2008, 07:48 AM   #55
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Just wanted to say I do play a coercer aswell (not very high level yet), well I used to not a lot of point now with this latest patch. And I would still take the coercer epic over the illu epic everytime.
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:11 AM   #56
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I have an idea! Illusionists believe that if they did not do T1 dps they would not be chosen for raids based on their utility alone. Rangers believe that they are not chosen for raids because they lack utility, even tho they can produce decent dps if they are supported by an 'ideal' group. Let's merge the classes and everyone will be happy! We can all buff each other and dps till our hearts are content SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />.

Oh, wait, they are already doing that.. it's called PVP. Where everyone complains because they cannot fight each other one on one based on their tanking; dps and utility abilities. What's the answer? Give rogues the ability to tank. Give fighters dps. Woops, we forgot something! Give healers and utility classes more dps too; they can't beat each other up with just utility buffs can they?? After a while every class in PVP is merely a blend of every other class.

These imbalance problems did not exist until pvp hit the boards. Now, we see everyone complaining someone else can do 'more' of something they can't do. The answer? Blend the classes; give em all dps, tanking abilities, and utility and make it fair! Slowly but surely the 'making it fair for pvp classes' has made it's way into PVE and here we are.. arguing about whether or not utility classes would be asked to raids if they did not also do T1 dps.

What a crazy world.

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Old 02-12-2008, 08:19 AM   #57
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Somehow this turned into a "nerf illys damage" (again) discussion. It's about epics. I think it's a travesty to try to nerf our dps with our epic weapon and force us to go more into that mana battery direction, if that's the intention. With this as our epic, we're simply going to use another weapon that gives us a proc that we want. I don't want believe that that's how it's intended to work. "Something that everyone of that class will want to get" I remember reading... And please don't ask me to wait till I get the mythical one. Though I love raiding, I'm not in a hardcore uber raiding guild, so it might be I won't see VP before the next expansion with level cap raise. The vast majority of us simply can't expect to upgrade to the mythical one just like that.

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Old 02-12-2008, 09:01 AM   #58
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This is why I would pick an illy with the epic over and illy without the epic anyday. I'm a paladin. 2/3 of my abilities are based on spells. and guess what, my spells eat through mana like lava eats through butter. it's literally that fast. my ward alone can eat almost 20% of my mana per cast. and don't get me started on group healing while trying to dps and taunt/ae adds.On battles like Mayong, I'm out of power, even using hearts/shards/potions/manastone as I can in about 2 minutes. and I got a near 9k manapool, which is pretty good for a paladin. So forgive me for saying that anything an illy can do to keep myself and my group with power, and any boost to that, is a good thing in my opinion.Now the imbalance between epics? well...my epic is pretty nice I think. the proc adds to my spell damage and heals based off my wisdom. but you wanna talk about it's damage? it's about equal to the Nathsar Shortsword. I can get an item in an instance run that does damage equal if not better to my epic.But I'm not complaining. this is NOT my final epic. this is not it's 'true' version. this is the halfway mark. I think, many illy and coercers and such will find that once they get to look at their raid version, they'll be quite pleased with it.My epic was a PAIN to get. required at least 2 deep seb runs, that can take anywhere from one to four plus hours per. (depending on how lucky you are with drop rates) clearing the shard of fear. and that doesn't count the group only faction questing to get the 40k you need to even start the Seb parts. now granted, the final little event was...well...was nothing for a group(but judging from the mobs it was intended for solo). but if you did fail it, you couldn't even try to redo it for at least 18 hours, as you have to go back into SoF to kill Terror again, because the drop we need off him goes poof. So far, paladins are the only epic that has that kind of setback for a failure that I know of.
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:42 AM   #59
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[email protected] wrote:
Now why is it that the coercer epic, which has a power group proc, took 6 hours to finish apon release and the illusionist epic took 4 days, requires 2 of the biggest old world HQ camps, a trip to the very very bottom of Chardok, and spending over 3p on furniture (a step which is bugged and many have to do twice) get a lesser power proc.

 Actually, knowing now it is group based proc, the illusionist proc is probably better then the coercer one for a dps group.  338 power back from one proc, vs 10% save buff for 12 seconds.  They would have to burn through 3380 power in that 12 seconds to be equal.  That is doable, but the illusionist epic could proc again in that 12 second time and each dps could get 676 back vs saving 10% on what ever they burned.

Coercer one is better for healers, ours should be better for dps groups.

amazing how that worked out

But what really makes it unbalanced is the 5% recast haste on the coercer one that ours is lacking, and the difficulty of the quests. 

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Old 02-12-2008, 03:50 PM   #60
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Well,  a lot of unbalance are there and it's not only for the illusionist.For more than 2 years, a DPS war have been occurs between summoners and sorcerer.  The summoners do a lot of damage with pet and that mitigate their hate.  The main problem of a sorcerer is the hate.  More than often, even with swashy/assassin and coercer/trouby/illusionit,  I can't do more damage than the tank can taunt.  Concrete example:Deathtoll raid -  Each time I was going over 2.5k DPS on an encounter, I was peeling aggro.  While a monk (yes a uber monk) was doing 3.5k constantly without peeling aggro.  So, for me to do 3.5k, I need to push and hope healers burned their mana on me to heal me.Well...  here we goes:Conjurer DPS can go on the roof...  hate tech for them.Now on the epic weapon, we get almost the same base stat but the proc...  Wizard proc :When Equipped:
  • On a successful spell attack this spell has a 9% chance to cast Fire of Intellect on target of spell. Lasts for 15.0 seconds.
    • Adds normalized spell damage based on 15% of the wizard's intelligence
    • Inflicts 374-562 heat damage on target
  • This spell can not be modified except by direct means
Conjurer epic weapon proc : On a successful hostile spell this spell has a 9% chance to cast Inferno on target of spell. Lasts for 12.0 seconds.
  • Applies Inferno. Lasts for 12.0 seconds.
    • Increases Damage Spell Crit Chance of pet by 10.0%
  • Inflicts 383-574 heat damage on target
  • Inflicts 68-101 heat damage on target every 3 seconds
The base stats are the same from one and the other.  But on the other hand,  the procs on the conjy seems to give more than the wizard procs. (explaining more:  10% crits on pet cannot be capped with itemization actually... so, no diminishing curves, pure boost of DPS. The DoT on the epic give more DPS than the DD proc of the wizard)Now for the quest design, at part 3 Wizard need to go the Chardok Palace, pass the red gate.  I had run 3 pickup groups there, each was a failure.  That place is one of the most hardest group content of the game.  I am blocked there.  I hope to get the MT of my guild for it, but he will always maximize guild members event.  So, I will wait for chardok ( to start my quest ) when the other will need this for their last step.  And what is the last step for wizard?  Killing an heroic 86 3 up just in front of VS' Lair zone in.Look at that conjuror post on eq2flames:
Quote:
Default Re: Epic Walkthrough

Quote:
Just SOLOed all the wounded elementals. Thay are group 80 ^^^ but with planeshift you should be able to take them. I have AA mirrror so did have my solo setup on. Chelsith - after you get to the part you need the chelsith update, you can solo this too. It drops from the level 83 lurkers in the water. seems to drop everytime you kill one so very easy and fast to get it.
They can solo their firsts part, I can't get a group strong enough to pass the red gate.  Worked 5 hours on one, 3 on another and 2 on the last.I love challenge, I would love all epics start in the hardest zone of the game.... but we are not treated equals.  I don't have pet pull in raid, I don't send shard, I need a trouby to DPS for the hate reduction and even that is not enough (because the conjy get him tooSMILEY).  So, with class unbalance and epics unbalance,  I am greatly happy to play the hardest class of the game. SMILEY  Well at least for that epic story.Now let's look at the other mage procs:NEcro:
  • When Equiped:
    • On a successful spell attack this spell has a 9% chance to cast Poisonous Blast to target of spell. Lasts for 10.0 seconds
      • Inflicts 473-709 poison damage on target
      • Inflicts 45-68 poison damage on target every 3.3 seconds
      • Applies Poisonous Blast. Lasts for 10.0 seconds.
        • Increases Damage Spell Crit Chances of pet by 10.0%
How necro can get better DPS on their epics proc compare to the conjy?  WHY????So,  if the conjy epics > wiz epics... then necro epics > wiz epics.Coercer: When Equipped:
  • On a successful spell attack this spell has a 9% chance to cast Siren's Gift on caster. Lasts for 10.0 seconds.
    • Reduces the power cost of the group members' spells by 10%
  • Reduces the reuse timers of all spells by 5%
  • This spell can not be modified except by direct
HMMMM...  while it didn't have a mere 500 DD procs (that will generate 2% or less DPS) they get a freaking 5% on reuse timers...  wow,  my bolt of ice with just that reuse would give me more than 30 DPS.Power cost... power cost... hmmm...  Can I get that item?  Each time I died because the hate mecanics punish the sorcerer the most, that 10% more power means direct 10% more dps when I am rez or on long fight. You will say, wait but 150 spell damage worth it!  Well...  with the itemization so far, its not hard to cap the spell damage effect so on a diminishing curves, the best wizard (or the better geared one) will get a pretty nice epic on their bags.  It's harder to cap reuse or casting speed.  But no love there.  And the main problem for a wizzy is his aggro.  I would like a proc for DD and a proc for Dehate (like the yellow rose of the trouby!).  To resume:  Wizard get chaft in quest design (hardest place first part not soloable, not even for small group, not even for a full group average or below average, get a reward subpar to the summoner reward (that can be solo at first, so not stuck in there) and are by mechanics like 1 pt of damage = 2 hate while all the other are on 1 on 1 ratio or 1 = .5 hate ratio (pet). SMILEY.So, I will cry like every ILLU IN THERE!!MAKE the TROUBY more FUN to PLAY or I will cancel my account (joking SMILEY).Marie-Ange who love the challenge but stare alone in the dark while all the other get it easy CoA, Chelsith, Vaults rides or even soloing JW place.
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