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Old 06-26-2012, 04:18 PM   #1
Talathion
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Fighters will take 50% more Damage.

They are effectively Wizards with the stance on.

Anyways, You need to lower hate gain by 200%, and remove hate positions, There is no way the fighters are going to keep aggro off me if this change stays in this stance.

You could also add -50% hate gain as well.

The Damage Profile is a little too much, but also the benefits, I say lower the damage taken increase to 25% instead of 50%, but also decrease the potency to 0% and just double it instead.

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Old 06-26-2012, 04:22 PM   #2
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Doubling potency, and adding 50 more on top of it?!

So...  240 potency is pretty easy to get with SS gear....with Reckless, fighters will be sitting at 530 potency?

Thats moronic.+50 potency is fine... doubling potency AND adding 50 is a joke and should never happen.

Fighter with Reckless stance should not be able to surpass any Pred/Sorc/Summoner/Rogue in DPS, gear and skill being equal.

500+ potency.... ridiculous.

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Old 06-26-2012, 04:29 PM   #3
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kalaria wrote:

Doubling potency, and adding 50 more on top of it?!

So...  240 potency is pretty easy to get with SS gear....with Reckless, fighters will be sitting at 530 potency?

Thats moronic.+50 potency is fine... doubling potency AND adding 50 is a joke and should never happen.

Fighter with Reckless stance should not be able to surpass any Pred/Sorc/Summoner/Rogue in DPS, gear and skill being equal.

500+ potency.... ridiculous.

We're also squishier then wizards atm.

We also can't be held aggro off of.

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Old 06-26-2012, 04:31 PM   #4
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

They are effectively Wizards with the stance on.

Wizard's in plate. With a click of your stance you are going from wizard back to full fledged tank.. Not sure how you talked Sony into this, but good for you. You just made a lot of classes in raids useless.

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Old 06-26-2012, 04:33 PM   #5
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Jeepned2 wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

They are effectively Wizards with the stance on.

Wizard's in plate. With a click of your stance you are going from wizard back to full fledged tank.. Not sure how you talked Sony into this, but good for you. You just made a lot of classes in raids useless.

Read the Stance.

When you EXIT the stance, it brings your HP to 5%.

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Old 06-26-2012, 04:40 PM   #6
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Seriously, stop posting Tala, you really have a fundamental lack of understanding of mechanics to be proliferating so much bad information.

We're not squishier than dps classes, even with this buff.

Now, in regards to 500 potency.  Fighters have very few CA's that hit hard, so 500 potency may sound like an excessive amount to someone playing a true dps class that could really have the opportunity to really take advantage of it.

Wish I could log in to get some real numbers of my unmodified CA amounts to give you a good example.  But even with 500 potency my CA's aren't going to be hitting that much harder than my autos.

I do have some concerns with a few of the abilities that modify CA values by %'s rather than potency and if those percent modifiers are cumulative and applied after potency we might have some specific scaling issues.  That will have to be tested.

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Old 06-26-2012, 04:41 PM   #7
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Read the Stance.

When you EXIT the stance, it brings your HP to 5%.

You don't have a death save or say a 3 trigger stoneskin to allow you to survive that swapping?

Oh right, you do, so its not really a huge issue.

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Old 06-26-2012, 04:46 PM   #8
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[email protected] wrote:

Ta[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Read the Stance.

When you EXIT the stance, it brings your HP to 5%.

You don't have a death save or say a 3 trigger stoneskin to allow you to survive that swapping?

Oh right, you do, so its not really a huge issue.

No I don't.

I have 1 Death Save.

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Old 06-26-2012, 04:54 PM   #9
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

No I don't.

I have 1 Death Save.

Thats only cause you've spec'ed poorly.

But realistically tanks have plenty of options to swap out of this buff in combat and survive.  All they have to do is look at the abilities given to them and execute.

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:33 PM   #10
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

No I don't.

I have 1 Death Save.

Thats only cause you've spec'ed poorly.

But realistically tanks have plenty of options to swap out of this buff in combat and survive.  All they have to do is look at the abilities given to them and execute.

So I go into a "Reckless Stance" but drop my biggest and best attack for a stoneskin?

I think I would rather just go normal Offensive Stance and take partisan cleave instead.

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:34 PM   #11
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This Reckless Stance stuff is a bad idea and just not needed IMO.  Rest of the tank changes seem ok so far but will wait and see....just don't care for the Reckless Stance stuff.

Tanks already have reserved slots on raids and get their gear quicker and cheaper than anyone else.

I rolled my Guardian knowing full and well what its purpose in the game was or should be.

When I decided I wanted to play some DPS.....I rolled a DPS class.

If they go too far with this Reckless Stance stuff (which frankly they would have too to make it accomplish what they say they are trying to do) then it could very well sideline several other classes.

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:37 PM   #12
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If you think this will side line classes you are dreaming.

Also, beastlords/assassins/rangers/warlocks/wizards will still outparse us.

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:41 PM   #13
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following SOE's propensities for changes that break things rather than fix things im not sure we are getting that much of a choice

as far as improving non tank output ... AA lines, better weapons (that has always been a bit of a contention for me, monk weapons -  at least - have never been to the standards of other melee classes), tweak existing offensive and balanced stances ...

instead they destroy DP's for brawlers ... instead of fixing the other tank classes ... they remove mit bonuses from char dev ... removing strikethrough immunity ...

i looked at the changes ... the losses out weigh the gains ... mit down, dp/heals down (% based, shortened duration)... even with all the potency and -hate, avg monks wont really be able to take a whole lot of advantage because they are going to be spending a lot of time face down waiting for a res

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:42 PM   #14
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this is starting to take on the air and flavor of the infamous EQ1 monk nurf that pretty much wasted all but the elite monks in the game and saw a huge exodus of the class from play for a long time ... and even after they finally admitted that they were wrong, 6 months later, it was still months after that monks were returned to any semblance of their former ability.

these changes are verging on their namesake ... "reckless"

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:42 PM   #15
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Also, beastlords/assassins/rangers/warlocks/wizards will still outparse us.

And Rogues/Summoners should easily as well.

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:51 PM   #16
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Recklessness seems alright, although I think it greatly impacts crusaders more than the other fighter classes.  Adding some crit bonus instead of potency would benefit all fighters equally, but that could also be extremely unbalancing.

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:57 PM   #17
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if fighters are suddenly doing the 1mil single target dps assasins and beast lords are, yeah, this stance is gonna be OPm but more then likely,  we'll be in the 450-600k range, which no real t1 dps should even remotly be worried about. This just makes tank 3 usefull when you only need 2 and dont want to swamp out on fights.

SK's and zerkers might get alittle nuts on AoE fights,but i'm having wet dreams over the thought of time warped wreckless grave sacs.

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Old 06-26-2012, 05:59 PM   #18
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Xaxtionlorex wrote:

if fighters are suddenly doing the 1mil single target dps assasins and beast lords are, yeah, this stance is gonna be OPm but more then likely,  we'll be in the 450-600k range, which no real t1 dps should even remotly be worried about. This just makes tank 3 usefull when you only need 2 and dont want to swamp out on fights.

SK's and zerkers might get alittle nuts on AoE fights,but i'm having wet dreams over the thought of time warped wreckless grave sacs.

Yeah, but problem is, with damage increase, we will pull aoe aggro/die LOL.

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Old 06-26-2012, 06:15 PM   #19
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If you don't like the stance you can turn it off/refuse to invite anyone in your raid that uses it, but please don't drag everyone else down with you.

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Old 06-26-2012, 06:18 PM   #20
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I find it nice and its and i'm thankfull about it!

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Old 06-26-2012, 06:24 PM   #21
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if wer're doing that kind of dps, take a PL from one of the bad dps.

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Old 06-26-2012, 06:44 PM   #22
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Read the Stance.

When you EXIT the stance, it brings your HP to 5%.

You don't have a death save or say a 3 trigger stoneskin to allow you to survive that swapping?

Oh right, you do, so its not really a huge issue.

No I don't.

I have 1 Death Save.

You really don't know your class. do you....

Unyielding will

Vision of madness

Thats 2 just off the top...

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Old 06-26-2012, 06:49 PM   #23
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Hirofortis wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Read the Stance.

When you EXIT the stance, it brings your HP to 5%.

You don't have a death save or say a 3 trigger stoneskin to allow you to survive that swapping?

Oh right, you do, so its not really a huge issue.

No I don't.

I have 1 Death Save.

You really don't know your class. do you....

Unyielding will

Vision of madness

Thats 2 just off the top...

If you use them both at once they cancel eachother out, Unyielding will Also has a high chance of killing the berserker off regardless of what hes doing or if hes berserk.

Look at our Bug List.

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Old 06-26-2012, 07:28 PM   #24
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tbh cant remember the last time i died to UW deaths door...  as to the stance id like to see how the damage turns out but with my current pot and my abilities only hitting for 4-6k (tooltip) on avg doubling that doesnt seem excessive.  i would like to see an effect added that inverses our threat effects. IE taunts do detaunt. positionals included. that would eliminate threat problems tuor is whining about, and allow zerkers to use stuff like gibe and jeering more easily.

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Old 06-26-2012, 07:37 PM   #25
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Definitely not a Main Tank stance,  (Would have to shift to Defensive sine I've lost Balanced) sounds more like a Support tank stance, switching them to damage output at the cost of protection and aggro.

I'm not sure how it will work for a Monk.

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Old 06-26-2012, 07:51 PM   #26
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atleast the de-postions I agree on, g-sacing is still gonna be hard on the threat.

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Old 06-26-2012, 09:09 PM   #27
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if a tank - even in reckless stance can beat you then a beastlord, assassin, wizard, ect....

you should simply stop complaining about whats in this post and start playing your class better, cause I can assure you, even if they trippled tank DPS, your not gonna be out doing a equally skilled player who knows thier DPS class just as well as you know your tank.

I've seen a few warlocks able to do 2 million + DPS, I am simply not gonna be able to do that as a berserker or shadowknight, stance or timewarp, or buffs, wont matter... theres beastlords out there parsing 1 to 1.5 million DPS on fights with little to no AE damage...

theres DPS classes that simply arent very good at thier class, and theres tanks who are simply great at both aspects of what they do, DPS or tanking, this stance will give them even more DPS for sure.

but will the top DPS people who actually know thier class well really care?

doubtful.

if this means we can occassionally bring a 4th tank into a raid, without severe drawbacks in the raids DPS, and have someone able to swap stances quickly and pick up the adds, a memwipe, or the name when some other tank gets 1 shot.... then by all means, its a good thing.

as a person who tanks a great deal for the last few years, I see another use for this at the heroic level.

I can finally bring another tank with me in a instance if I wanted to, and not have be annoyed at them constantly taking aggro. 2 tanks fighting for aggro is not a fun thing to do, if this means I can bring a friend along to fill a spot and they can simply DPS the best they can, and I dont have to be annoyed to death that they constantly swap aggro with me... then this is fine.

its not ideal to have a second tank in a heroic zone, but if the zone is easy, and he fills the spot - why not, its bettter then a merc or asking them to play a toon they dont really want to play.

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Old 06-26-2012, 09:26 PM   #28
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Its not so much about matching or beating T1 DPS, but the idea that you can take either

A. T1-T2 DPS

or

B. T2-T3 DPS that can also main tank by switching stances

Our Sk can already do QUITE well on Ae fights, taking over half their DPS then more than doubling it in this stance would basically make them a decent warlock.

I wouldn't care if the DPS classes had something in contrast. Such as a way to sacrifice DPS for utility. This sweeping change of only one column of classes is short sighted to say the least.

And I do love the out of context DPS quotes of other classes. FYI trash burns and farm status named mean exactly squat when talking about balance. Show me someone who did 1.5 mill on a progression mob, or a difficult fight in general, and I'll show you a liar.

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Old 06-27-2012, 12:10 AM   #29
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Kunaak wrote:

if a tank - even in reckless stance can beat you then a beastlord, assassin, wizard, ect....

you should simply stop complaining about whats in this post and start playing your class better, cause I can assure you, even if they trippled tank DPS, your not gonna be out doing a equally skilled player who knows thier DPS class just as well as you know your tank.

I've seen a few warlocks able to do 2 million + DPS, I am simply not gonna be able to do that as a berserker or shadowknight, stance or timewarp, or buffs, wont matter... theres beastlords out there parsing 1 to 1.5 million DPS on fights with little to no AE damage...

theres DPS classes that simply arent very good at thier class, and theres tanks who are simply great at both aspects of what they do, DPS or tanking, this stance will give them even more DPS for sure.

but will the top DPS people who actually know thier class well really care?

doubtful.

if this means we can occassionally bring a 4th tank into a raid, without severe drawbacks in the raids DPS, and have someone able to swap stances quickly and pick up the adds, a memwipe, or the name when some other tank gets 1 shot.... then by all means, its a good thing.

as a person who tanks a great deal for the last few years, I see another use for this at the heroic level.

I can finally bring another tank with me in a instance if I wanted to, and not have be annoyed at them constantly taking aggro. 2 tanks fighting for aggro is not a fun thing to do, if this means I can bring a friend along to fill a spot and they can simply DPS the best they can, and I dont have to be annoyed to death that they constantly swap aggro with me... then this is fine.

its not ideal to have a second tank in a heroic zone, but if the zone is easy, and he fills the spot - why not, its bettter then a merc or asking them to play a toon they dont really want to play.

This guy gets the point of reckless and why its not going to dethrone skilled dps players.

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Old 06-27-2012, 12:37 AM   #30
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Ok -30% hate gain is nothing, you will pull agro with 600 potency and such a tiny dehate and die

50% increase of all inc damage is to steep should be 50% of any inc melee or direct damage so AE's arnt face planting you for 200k, once again unless you block every AE you better joust and ask for wards or pop a ds or die

All in all as it sits this stance sucks

Its a hey look at my dummy parse and my worthless trash 30mob ae ability and thats about it if that exites you I guess your happy with this stance.

Go back to the drawing board this is a bad idea

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