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Old 06-21-2012, 08:48 PM   #1
Twyxx

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Definitely some good stuff coming for bg's from today's webcast:  http://www.twitch.tv/soe/b/322239118

But...level agnostic bgs, at first glance, seems like a horrible idea.  Taking the popular 30-39 tier and making them compete in "level agnostic" bgs will destroy what's left of that community.  They said they're going to balance the damage so a 39 hit would do the same as a 89 hit. 

SW:TOR did the same thing and you're going to have the same problem, but likely to a larger extent here.  Even if you figure out a way to perfectly blend the levels and their gear for damage there's no way to compensate for the 89's having all the extra aa's and skills that 39's don't have.  Current 39's that want to compete will have to level up to 89 to be able to be the best they can be.  With this strategy in SW:TOR the lower levels could go in there and have a little fun, wouldn't get one-shot, but would still get abused overall.  They could never compete on the parse and would often get ridiculed by the higher levels for making their team worse, often being told not to queue.

Many people in the 39s community have a number of alts they play in there.  Alts keep things fresh for you when you're running the same (now 3) maps over and over.  Getting to 39/100 can be done in an hour.  Going to 89 will take much longer and you may see a lot of players finally give up on bgs instead of taking the time to level all the way up. 

So basically, you're going to have an 89 bg queue and a 92 queue.  This is not a "fun" solution.  The people in the 39s love the 39s.  They just want you to fix the gear/reward/class balance and add another map or two that are fun.  Don't destroy the tier.

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Old 06-21-2012, 09:01 PM   #2
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Level Up.

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Old 06-22-2012, 12:01 AM   #3
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Twyxx wrote:

Definitely some good stuff coming for bg's from today's webcast:  http://www.twitch.tv/soe/b/322239118

But... there's no way to compensate for the 89's having all the extra aa's and skills that 39's don't have....

Ah, like there's no way for newbies in the 30s on Nagafen to compensate for the locked 39s having all the extra aa's and twinked gear/spells that newbies don't have? 

But...it's okay when you're the longstanding twink on the winning end, even if it has practically killed off Nagafen's population, and practically no one on the blue servers plays BGs because of the twinks?

I agree with Tal here:  Level up.    It's about time SOE started, in the tiniest way, recognizing that twinks kill off PvP in every form.

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Old 06-22-2012, 12:04 AM   #4
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I agree it's a bad idea as is.  If they remove AA tab restrictions it would vastly improve the chances at balancing 30 vs 89. 

On the other hand, they did mention it's a calculation based on what you would do to a same level opponent and that is why in the scenario the guy talked about his level 85 was almost lowest dmg on the BG parse against a bunch of 30s.

I know as a 39 I can solo run DFC and RE with ease nearly one shotting many mobs.  Can an 89 do that percentage of dmg to yellow/orange mobs?  I think it will need to be tested out before people jump to conclusions.  And you KNOW they will be adjusting those formulas they are using to do it.  My best guess is that 89 is not the level to be for peak performance and it will depend on your class what level that is (the lowest level you have your best class defining abilities & have access to a significant number of AA abilities ... possibly 70 or 80 for many classes at this point, maybe lower if they remove restrictions).

So play on test and feedback as much as you can.

If I can only have one wish for this release it is that AA tab restrictions are removed.

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Old 06-22-2012, 09:01 AM   #5
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The way level agnostic is supposed to work is that it boosts up your damage/heals if you're lower level so has to reach the level of a max level player. You'll make more single hit damage to be able to stay on par for a multy-attacking and flurrying level 90.

It's currently not working very well for dungeons and needs a lot of adjusting so I highly recommand you to come to Test Server and test it for yourself and feedback what doesn't work well (only for DM currently but soon for BG, and I suppose we'll get Test_Copy switched to PVP to test the massive PVP changes).

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Old 06-23-2012, 12:44 AM   #6
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Level Up.

thesiren wrote:

Twyxx wrote:

Definitely some good stuff coming for bg's from today's webcast:  http://www.twitch.tv/soe/b/322239118

But... there's no way to compensate for the 89's having all the extra aa's and skills that 39's don't have....

Ah, like there's no way for newbies in the 30s on Nagafen to compensate for the locked 39s having all the extra aa's and twinked gear/spells that newbies don't have?  

But...it's okay when you're the longstanding twink on the winning end, even if it has practically killed off Nagafen's population, and practically no one on the blue servers plays BGs because of the twinks?

I agree with Tal here:  Level up.    It's about time SOE started, in the tiniest way, recognizing that twinks kill off PvP in every form.

Level locking is a valid means for content with longevity, that of which is available to players who don't have the vast swathes of time required (comparatively) for T9-T10 competency.

Ignoring this fact showcases a strong inability to contribute as a quality respondent.

And, merging & scaling outside tiers is not an intelligent compromise that can be made.

If activity boosts are desired in other tiers, implementing some form of seasonal leaderboards & rewards is the appropriate route.

For instance, give TRULY novel, in-demand rewards for 50-59, 60-69, & 70-79 level ranges.

These rewards could be conditional on (reasonable amounts of) PvP activity in that SPECIFIC level range.

Consider that having a leaderboard champion in one tier could allow for THE BEST PvP ITEM ON ALL OF YOUR CHARACTERS, but FOR ONLY ONE TO TWO SLOTS.

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Old 06-23-2012, 11:32 AM   #7
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Just level up to 89/retwink yourself.

Or level past 89 and play with the big boys.

People shouldn't be awarded as many points as people who play 90+.

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Old 06-23-2012, 04:19 PM   #8
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what is the difference between lvl 39 twinks and lvlo 89 or 92 twinks? i love how the high lvl twinks tell low lvls to lvl up and play with the big boys, when end game has the worst record for one shots and outlandish damage? the lower tiers used to be the most balanced tiers, untill pvp gear made a huge imbalance. same can besaid in higher tiers. new players in any tier will always be destroyed in a second by those that are well pvp geared, and that discourages people from playing.

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Old 06-23-2012, 07:35 PM   #9
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karnath wrote:

what is the difference between lvl 39 twinks and lvlo 89 or 92 twinks? i love how the high lvl twinks tell low lvls to lvl up and play with the big boys, when end game has the worst record for one shots and outlandish damage? the lower tiers used to be the most balanced tiers, untill pvp gear made a huge imbalance. same can besaid in higher tiers. new players in any tier will always be destroyed in a second by those that are well pvp geared, and that discourages people from playing.

I know you're like 99% likely to support twinking, but you should also know the prime, important, & valuable difference between T2-T10 twinks.

Time invested.

It's easier to become a lower level twink, & thus, competitive PvP becomes more realistic for those of the "casual" demographic. =]

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Old 06-25-2012, 04:48 AM   #10
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This is a bad idea.

The reason T4 BGS (were, I speak in past-tense because I haven't played in nearly 2 years) sucessful because of how easy it is to twink out a level 39 and get a decent amount of AA.

I'd estimate it would take more than 10 times the amount of time to do the same to a level 89. 

Yes, it's a bigger timesink, but there goes the most (by what I've read) popular tier of BG.

Changing gear to be usable in PvE is a good step in the direction of fixing this, but as far as I can tell there's easy ways to exploit a system like this.

Top of my head, play a scout and take your weapons off before you zone into the bg. You now put your weapons on, and the game has already calculated with your fists you do x dmg and is boosting your damage by (random guess) 5000% to compensate. You put your weapons back on, and now do 5000% more damage than you should.

It just doesn't seem like a good idea.

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Old 06-25-2012, 09:55 AM   #11
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It's just more than obvious to anyone reviewing the issue with common sense that YOU CANNOT MAKE UP for lost spells/CAs gained from leveling, the extra AAs, or the affects of mythicals & the obvious disparity in survivability that there will be with more potent equipment available at T10.

Stimulating lower tier battlegrounds should be *PURSUED* in a way that WILL NOT absolutely eradicate the viability of CASUAL COMPETENCY (see: my suggestion above).

If this goes forward, level lockers will ABSOLUTELY be ONLY useless pawns in a herd with zero to little impact that their time commitments deserve.

"More active" battlegrounds, imo, isn't an acceptable trade-off for eliminating the possibility of level lockers ever achieving maximal potency under casual time constraints.

*Note* - If your attention span is terrible & you don't want to find my suggestion again, it was "unlock 1-2 of THE BEST PvP pieces for specific slots (for all of that accounts' characters, in every tier) from having a leaderboard champion in open world PvP or battlegrounds within tiers two to nine (10-89)"

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Old 07-05-2012, 04:42 AM   #12
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Level up. MMOs are built to require time commitments to your character(s). If you do not want to or have enough time to invest in your toons then play a game designed as such. You should perform better at higher levels, the idea is to level up, advance your character, experience the game... not lock at low levels and kill newbies until the pvp population is what it is now...

I am very happy for this change & definitely applaud SoE for doing it.

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Old 07-05-2012, 04:05 PM   #13
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Seijin wrote:

Level up. MMOs are built to require time commitments to your character(s). If you do not want to or have enough time to invest in your toons then play a game designed as such. You should perform better at higher levels, the idea is to level up, advance your character, experience the game... not lock at low levels and kill newbies until the pvp population is what it is now...

I am very happy for this change & definitely applaud SoE for doing it.

You're clearly very inexperienced as a gamer to support such myopia...

Not only is catering to casuals required, but so too is it an obligation to ensure enjoyable content longevity/replay value.

It's obvious that any MMO can profit, & has profited, from those whose time schedules & recreational budgets are limited.

Fated to always, absolutely being 23rd fiddle when your prior time commitments allotted you competitive competency for a shorter investment of capital is unacceptable when there truly are other, sound options for incentivizing other tiers' PvP populations.

The problem is that SOE has is, is arrogant bureaucracy impeding the populations of the other 2 most popular level locking tiers, T2 & T3, LVLs 10-29.

To notion that low levels engage with only "newbies" is utterly naive & oblivious to the allure & attraction from having an introductory, active PvP populace, WITH WHICH TO INTERFACE & ACCLIMATE, without the higher demands of later tiers.

Acting as though elitism & disclusion is preferable to circumspect inclusion is truly wrong.

Players enjoy being able to reach max potency, & within a reasonable timeframe.

Multiple tiers allow this.

Forcing mythicals & capped AAs at LVL 83-89 (depending upon their cares for fame or not, probably none considering the poor line-up slated) or so is a grave insult to varying player preferences & both firm or lax time schedules.

Not everyone wants to, or can afford to, dump so much time into the pursuit of relatively fair jockeying, neither does everyone like the power shift that comes with mythicals & capped AAs.

Players are far more liable to take an indefinite leave if forced to do what they don't want to.

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Old 07-05-2012, 04:37 PM   #14
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GW2 has an interesting take on Battlegrounds.   Everyone who zones in is immediately raised to max level and has access to max level armor and weapons regardless of the current world status.   Though in that game, there are multiple combos with regards to buffs/ dispels/weapons/armor.  So its as much a challenge to figure out what combo works best for your group or you

But... the thing is that in those scenarios it really does come down to pure skill and teamwork.  Not one players gear over another.  Its a lot of fun too.

SOE ought take page or 2 from that system as far as battlegrounds anyway as there is no open world pvp.

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Old 07-05-2012, 04:54 PM   #15
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I think that would suck... I don't want 4 hotbars of abilities I don't know what they do to pop up in my UI, and have to figure out how I want to spec 220 AAs when I zone into BG. Also, I think everyone having the same gear would blow balls. Even in FPS, not everyone has the same gear.

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Old 07-05-2012, 05:15 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

I think that would suck... I don't want 4 hotbars of abilities I don't know what they do to pop up in my UI, and have to figure out how I want to spec 220 AAs when I zone into BG. Also, I think everyone having the same gear would blow balls. Even in FPS, not everyone has the same gear.

There is no AA Tree.  And everyone doesn't have the same gear.  What they have is access to all the gear to spec their character out to the combo that works best for them.  And there there are a ton of combos. Yes...there is a learning curve, but its skill based, not gear based.

But since you haven't played it...how can it suck? 

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Old 07-05-2012, 09:32 PM   #17
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Raffir wrote:

GW2 has an interesting take on Battlegrounds.   Everyone who zones in is immediately raised to max level and has access to max level armor and weapons regardless of the current world status.   Though in that game, there are multiple combos with regards to buffs/ dispels/weapons/armor.  So its as much a challenge to figure out what combo works best for your group or you

But... the thing is that in those scenarios it really does come down to pure skill and teamwork.  Not one players gear over another.  Its a lot of fun too.

SOE ought take page or 2 from that system as far as battlegrounds anyway as there is no open world pvp.

Raf

No.

SOE CAN NOT pull off yet ANOTHER half-baked attempt at copy-catting another game's feature.

Gear conversion disparity, AAs, myths, & LVL-based extra combat arts & spells ABSOLUTELY MAKE THIS IMPOSSIBLE for fair & enjoyable progression.

And supposedly, from what you're saying, success in GW2 is more about finesse/skill/twitch action than class/gear balance.

That, & GW2 doesn't seem to have a solid scheme of game design items established for strong replay value.

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:41 PM   #18
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Raffir wrote:

But since you haven't played it...how can it suck?

Because I have been playing this game for 7+ years which is long enough to know assigning 220 AAs and organizing 50 abilities on my hot bar sucks.

Also, you don't have to eat a turdd to know it tastes bad.

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Old 07-06-2012, 11:17 AM   #19
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Seliri wrote:

Raffir wrote:

GW2 has an interesting take on Battlegrounds.   Everyone who zones in is immediately raised to max level and has access to max level armor and weapons regardless of the current world status.   Though in that game, there are multiple combos with regards to buffs/ dispels/weapons/armor.  So its as much a challenge to figure out what combo works best for your group or you

But... the thing is that in those scenarios it really does come down to pure skill and teamwork.  Not one players gear over another.  Its a lot of fun too.

SOE ought take page or 2 from that system as far as battlegrounds anyway as there is no open world pvp.

Raf

No.

SOE CAN NOT pull off yet ANOTHER half-baked attempt at copy-catting another game's feature.

Gear conversion disparity, AAs, myths, & LVL-based extra combat arts & spells ABSOLUTELY MAKE THIS IMPOSSIBLE for fair & enjoyable progression.

And supposedly, from what you're saying, success in GW2 is more about finesse/skill/twitch action than class/gear balance.

That, & GW2 doesn't seem to have a solid scheme of game design items established for strong replay value.

For once Seliri,

I agree with you.  SOE is probably too deeply enmeshed in the current system to change that drastically.  It was just a passing thought.

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Old 07-06-2012, 11:19 AM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:

Raffir wrote:

But since you haven't played it...how can it suck?

Because I have been playing this game for 7+ years which is long enough to know assigning 220 AAs and organizing 50 abilities on my hot bar sucks.

Also, you don't have to eat a turdd to know it tastes bad.

Yeah...its real hard to learn anything new. 

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Old 07-06-2012, 03:26 PM   #21
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good luck getting them to completely revamp pvp mechanics to whatever you are envisioning, I'm sure they would totally save pvp and bgs along with everyone else's far out never gonna happen ideas to fix pvp; my bet is 18+ months before another small pvp update.

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Old 07-15-2012, 10:24 AM   #22
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Level Agnostic Battlegrounds will be as big a failure as The Frozen Tundra was. I will not level my 39's up just to compete with 40's-89's. Its bad enough that I have had to go to another game to get any quality pvp because every change (or lack thereof) they have made to pvp/Bg's over the past couple of years has done nothing but diminish what made pvp/BG's fun. I have a strong feeling that the developers who came up with this idea have never played any BG's and most likely never will.

There are just to many things that would need to be rebalanced to make it work that it would essentially impossible for the current team to get it right.

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Old 07-17-2012, 08:38 AM   #23
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Brook wrote:

Level Agnostic Battlegrounds will be as big a failure as The Frozen Tundra was. I will not level my 39's up just to compete with 40's-89's. Its bad enough that I have had to go to another game to get any quality pvp because every change (or lack thereof) they have made to pvp/Bg's over the past couple of years has done nothing but diminish what made pvp/BG's fun. I have a strong feeling that the developers who came up with this idea have never played any BG's and most likely never will.

There are just to many things that would need to be rebalanced to make it work that it would essentially impossible for the current team to get it right.

I hope it gets people like Seliri to stop screwing around at lower levels and level up so the player base isn't spread out so much.

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Old 07-17-2012, 02:58 PM   #24
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Brook wrote:

I have a strong feeling that the developers who came up with this idea have never played any BG's and most likely never will.

well the dev talking about the BG changes in that last webcast thinks BGs reward 3-5 tokens so...

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Old 07-17-2012, 09:00 PM   #25
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Seijin wrote:

Brook wrote:

Level Agnostic Battlegrounds will be as big a failure as The Frozen Tundra was. I will not level my 39's up just to compete with 40's-89's. Its bad enough that I have had to go to another game to get any quality pvp because every change (or lack thereof) they have made to pvp/Bg's over the past couple of years has done nothing but diminish what made pvp/BG's fun. I have a strong feeling that the developers who came up with this idea have never played any BG's and most likely never will.

There are just to many things that would need to be rebalanced to make it work that it would essentially impossible for the current team to get it right.

I hope it gets people like Seliri to stop screwing around at lower levels and level up so the player base isn't spread out so much.

what...? i dont even have any level locked toons because low tier PvP gear is so ridiculously, incompetently itemized...

i, for some reason, only enjoy fame whoring in the classic PvP rank scheme...

continued nerfs to crowd control, clerics/shamans, & nothing done about: global travel simplicity, global flier/leaper usage, heirloom/grandfathered tokens, restoring the classic fame system, properly itemizing low tier pvp gear, limiting PvP server battlegrounds entry on a weekly basis, & no incentive to farm a variety of contested version of instances for the best PvP gear ... ... ... discourage me from seeking to return to EQ2 on an active basis... ;o heh. ;p

& honestly, going forward with level agnostic battlegrounds is fairly insulting to the avid base of level lockers who enjoy competing with less time sinks & less overpowered imbalances of higher levels.

oh well, bureaucrats gonna bureaucrat.

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Old 07-17-2012, 09:16 PM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

good luck getting them to completely revamp pvp mechanics to whatever you are envisioning, I'm sure they would totally save pvp and bgs along with everyone else's far out never gonna happen ideas to fix pvp; my bet is 18+ months before another small pvp update.

At least.  I definitely get the feeling that this is going to be a fix-it-and-forget-it release.  Wouldn't expect a new map, a fixed tundra or, most importantly, a working matching system anytime soon.

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Old 07-21-2012, 03:11 AM   #27
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I don't know how you are going to make this work but I hope you know what you are doing because T4 BG's is one of the only reasons I keep my subscription going. It has made the game enjoyable for me as a more casual gamer. It seems to me that this change is really going to suck.

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Old 07-21-2012, 12:32 PM   #28
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[email protected] wrote:

I don't know how you are going to make this work but I hope you know what you are doing because T4 BG's is one of the only reasons I keep my subscription going. It has made the game enjoyable for me as a more casual gamer. It seems to me that this change is really going to suck.

Yeah, it's definitely a disappointment to lose the 39's tier.  I don't see any value in the 30-89 tier.  There's a group of pvp'ers on Nagafen that are locking at 80-85 to load up on TSO procs and beat up on the people trying bgs on their way up. 

This revamp is largely a copy of SWTOR's warzone system, but their lower tier 10-49 warzones didn't let you lock.  You gain exp from the pvp and at some point it will push you over to 50 so you have to play with the big kids.  And they had the same way of "balancing" the stats between low levels and high levels.  It still didn't matter though, the higher levels with more/better skills had a huge advantage.

I am just going to bg on my 92 ranger and am looking forward to that, but I really enjoyed the playstyle and the community in the 39s.  Wish more of them had spoken up about this change.

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Old 07-21-2012, 04:38 PM   #29
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I think the idea of generalizing every tier is terrible. At this moment the game retains playability at the tiers (though not as much as it used to). Making everyone on a even playing field that cant be affected by a players effort really dries up the flavor for pvp in this game in my opinion. They need to make every tier unique, when you go to the next tier you should be able to experience something new, and something simple/priceless should be left behind. I bet something like that will liven up tier based pvp alot. I think this whole agnostic thing sounds like a cop out to just put a be all end all fix to BG mentored pvp. Instead of filling a giant void with one bucket of water, why dont you work on making each tier a niche for each kind of player mentality!

EQ2 has had some amazing traits in pvp, one involved consequence, the other involved time investment with friends, the people who put time dedication into the research of how their toon operates in pvp is the clear winner, as it should be in any tier. generalizing stats and removing the unique abilities that are attainable so that some one that plays 10 hours a week can content against someone who plays 40 hours a week is a total slap in the face to the dedicated gamers that truly keep this game going. Stop thinking there is a win win situation, all you guys tend to do is make flighty decisions based on mainstream MMO consensus. who cares about the rest of the industry, you dont even advertise mainstream. Feed us, enrich our ideas that are sound. Stop trying to give us what everyone else has ( generic everybody can compete pvp). We wouldn't still be playing this game if it offered us the same things as WoW/GW2/SWToR.

The most frustrating thing is that you guys broke the mold when you made this game, but instead of being confident with it you got insecure and tried to please the people by giving them the traits that all other "mass appeal" games had. This game has always had some awesome ideas that are always implemented and touted with wavering certainty. Start listening, communicate with us and make smart decisions based on the information that your fans and customers give you. Or atleast give us people here stating opinions on your games a more consistent response. It seems you guys really pick and choose what you respond to on here, you guys need to talk to us about things more often, we are here to help you too. If you guys continue to ignore and not acknowledge things as people have problems with them, this game will certainly diminish.

I hope you dont allow that, because this game is your current livelyhood. I wouldnt do that to my job. Just sayin.

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Old 07-21-2012, 05:40 PM   #30
Twyxx

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japanfour wrote:

 I think this whole agnostic thing sounds like a cop out to just put a be all end all fix to BG mentored pvp. Instead of filling a giant void with one bucket of water, why dont you work on making each tier a niche for each kind of player mentality!

Problem is there isn't enough population to fill each tier anymore.  You can really only go two tiers with bgs and have them pop consistently.  Since the t4 was the healthiest bg community I would've kept that one and then done a 40-92 lvl agnostic if you were gonna just go with two tiers.

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