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Old 10-23-2018, 01:20 AM   #151
Adoninilol

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If dps was just 2-3 buttons you cast on repeat and 4-5 buttons that are entirely situational, then sure.

But dps isn't designed the same way as healers are in this game.

If one moment solar flare hit harder than ice comet that would change a lot. But if I had five spells and the rest were power regen/group buffs/single target buffs I wouldn't really care because I would still be casting solar flare before comet due to the recast of it. I can obviously cast more solar flares if I solar flare then comet then solar flare versus comet then flare then wait for flare to come back up~.
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:34 AM   #152
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Wow.. you're waaaaaay behind the curve.
1) I main a warden and a mystic. The only reason I'm using wards for the numbers is they don't require damage to be done to see their full size
2) Wards DO NOT stack any more. Putting 1 ward or 50 wards doesn't change how much damage gets through
3) Healers are NOT just spam heal bots.

Please explain why you think healers should NOT want to optimize their play and be most effective (NOT most efficient) in playing their toons to their full potential? Good healers do NOT just hit the same 4 buttons all the time every time. Why cast a 10m heal when a 5m heal will do the job? Why cast any heal at all when you don't need to and can buff/debuff or dps instead? Without the heal numbers healers lack to tools to know if this or that heal is sufficient to bring sombody back up.... if the hot or reactives ticks are going to be more or less incoming damage. Those numbers are essential if a wants to be more then a spam heal bot.

Sure, some healers are content to be spam heal bots.. just like some dpsers are content to hit whatever button lights up next. But the later doesn't care what the numbers are the arts say either.. so if you're going to use the that kind of healer as your base for healers, you should use the dps who don't care as your base for dps too.. and hide all the numbers for everybodys arts in heroic and raid zones and nerf each art for each class differently.
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Old 10-23-2018, 03:37 AM   #153
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More irrelevant drivel with little to no relevance.

The entire point of a healer is to heal, then continue healing, then heal after that.

Wards stack, yes bleedthrough exists. I know that.

I already explained how to optimize your play and why the amount of the ward means nothing. If you want to ignore what I said and continue just talking for the sake of talking, go ahead.
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Old 10-23-2018, 04:14 AM   #154
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The only point I can see you trying to make is "don't let healers have any idea what their arts will actually do" and arguing that healers should just cast some wards/heals based on what used to work. Mermut's numbers (tested with several different wards because that is really the only reproducible healing-related data that can be collected) shows that the CD heal debuff is massive, AND that the effect is dramatically different for individual arts. With zero information provided about what the debuff is supposed to do, there isn't any way for us to actually test healing in Beta to see that it is working properly, or even as intended.

Ideally, every healing class should have roughly equivalent ability to keep a group up - shaman wards preventing most of the damage from hitting and some direct heals when wards are down or not enough; cleric reactives instantly healing hits and some direct heals when reactives are all used or not enough; druid HoTs healing constantly so that toons can handle the next hit; channeler intercepting hits and direct healing things that get through. If nobody has any idea how much a given ward, reactive, HoT, direct heal, or special will actually help the group, there's no way for healers to figure out what they need to do to keep the group alive, or even what mix of heal classes is most likely to be able to do so.

The current state of Beta makes it look like it will be no fun to play ANY class of healer (and flippant "oh, healers just need to do X" don't help that at all), and the apparent plan to require every group - heroic and raid - to have two healers to survive, strikes me as a bad combination for maintaining the playerbase, much less recruiting additional players.
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Old 10-23-2018, 04:40 AM   #155
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The entire point of a healer is to contribute to the group's success, just like any other character. Priority should be the things that only healers can do, or do much better than other classes - cure, and keep the group alive (wards/heals/etc) - but right behind that is to help the group's DPS with buffs, debuffs, and yes, doing actual damage themselves. Heck, several classes have abilities and AA that mean they can't even do peak healing without actively beating on the mobs, so a flippant "heal, then heal more" ignores a lot of what makes (or should make) the various healer classes play much differently.

If you want to just heal, and leave all the DPS to other classes, fine - but please don't suggest that is the only viable play style, or that any healer who wants to be a more effective group member is just spouting "irrelevant drivel".
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:33 AM   #156
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I picked the Fury class to heal and still do decent dps. I'm hopeful the class isn't turned into a spam healer.

We have just a few weeks before launch... we really need to know the vision of each class.
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Old 10-23-2018, 06:23 AM   #157
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Wow mindlessly pushing buttons as a strategy.Go you!!
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:47 AM   #158
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The data shown proves that the "old way" still works, what are you getting at here?


IN LIBRARY
"Umbral Barrier: 348,409,147
Ancestral Ward: 212,834,719
Oberon: 463,674,345

IN T1 HEROIC
Umbral Barrier: 144,794,017 (41% normal size)
Ancestral Ward: 55,574,322 (26% normal size)
Oberon: 73,373,182 (15% normal size)"
Oberon isn't up enough to matter, and single/group ward at the bread/butter.

Did I magically decide as a shaman to stop casting wards and switch to single target heals?

Did I magically get reactives, heal over times? Did my ward hit for such small numbers that its better to just spam single target heals? No. Coupled with the fact tanks have so many temps and for most heroics in years you really only need to press group ward and an occasional Ancestral to keep the group alive.

"Ideally, every healing class should have roughly equivalent ability to keep a group up - shaman wards preventing most of the damage from hitting and some direct heals when wards are down or not enough; cleric reactives instantly healing hits and some direct heals when reactives are all used or not enough; druid HoTs healing constantly so that toons can handle the next hit; channeler intercepting hits and direct healing things that get through. If nobody has any idea how much a given ward, reactive, HoT, direct heal, or special will actually help the group, there's no way for healers to figure out what they need to do to keep the group alive, or even what mix of heal classes is most likely to be able to do so."

I don't get what it changes, you still press what your class is designed to do. I'm not gonna magically not cast wards, reactives, hots, divine guidance, soul shackle etc. Unless those abilities do absolutely 0 which they don't.

" there's no way for healers to figure out what they need to do to keep the group alive"

Then that is a issue with the content, the healer, or the design of the class.

If you can't press heals and keep the group alive through temps like spirit tap, divine guidance, howling of the pack etc, then that isn't the healers fault. But still, at base, when those are down you revert back down to bread and butter buttons like simple wards/reactives/hots.

Yes the debuff is ridiculous, and instead of limiting stats players have they are instead adding mob "avoidances" to stats is crazy.

But to imply its completely shifting classes is just wrong, and arrogant.

Sorry shamans/clerics and everyone else on heal intensive fights are just casting heal after heal between temp buffs, and I guess casting a ascensions when bored, this isn't debatable, it's a fact.

Debuffs on shaman sans Echoes/Abomination and Bane of warding haven't been relevant in a long time, the butons are just wastes of casts/hotbar spaces. Templars, sure you still cast theirs for bonus heals/damage inc multipliers.

The defiler endline is cool but that is only one more debuff.

The rest of the time you cast wards, press heals when the group spikes below 100% and press ascensions and feel cool.



Obviously single target buffs like Bolster, Sanctuary and what not are still a factor, but the argument here isn't utility of classes, its the heals they put out, and the fact that the heals they have are still the same abilities just with different numbers.

Same goes for clerics but insert reactives where wards is.

Nothing changes.

This is a bit old, but still holds true in this game and really any game with healing.
"Healing is really simple and I don't understand why people suck so much at it, so here is how to not suck at healing. You cast heals. Yes, it really is that simple. You just cast heals, and you keep casting heals. You keep casting heals even if the tank doesn't need heals. You are just always casting heals, especially the group heal and group reactive. You don't wait for people to need those heals, you just cast them as soon as they are up. Half of what you are casting for is proc's, and this is why you also keep reverence up, because it proc's stuff. Don't wait for reactives to run out before casting them again, just cast them as soon as they are up for the proc's. If the tank is really getting his **** pushed in after you have casted repent, both reactives, and the group heal, you start casting your direct heals while the other **** is down. I don't care if the tank is at full life, you cast the direct heals anways because he might not be at full life when the heal lands, and after the heal lands you'll have a reactive or group heal up again to cast. Precasting cures. Go into options, particle effects, put the particle quality on something other than low, the min and max distance to the max, and the max particle size to 0, and the number per character to 1 (you may also want to increase your shader distance for some mobs under performance). This lets you see casting animations. Learn casting animations that mobs do and start to time cures to hit right after the animation finishes. It makes life easy. If your gear choices don't suck, and you follow these simple instructions, you won't suck either. Disclaimer: This applies to all healing classes, not just Templars. You should be casting your heals regardless and not waiting for **** to happen before doing it."
Fury is obviously the outlier in this situation, as is any other healer, if you're not required to heal, you dps. That much should be obvious, but you're still at root following the same mechanics of the class in regards as to which heals to prioritize if needed be.


Also shout to Zamofir, Revvv, and Aldarid for your nice words in vigilance discord.
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:40 PM   #159
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no, actually no

In PG for exemple you tried to know which heals to cast. As a warden most heals were doing nothing (I could heal as much as I wanted, I would never see health go up except for a few)

then when you know that, you know you won't spam the only good heals you have to keep them for the OH CRAP moments.


the big problem with EQ2 tooltips right now is that theory and reality are too different.

you want to know in advance on which heal you can rely, what does what and when to use your big recast heals and if needed to cast them at all.

when you see the numbers, youo see no ward scales the same way, so you again need to relearn the numbers with ACT and not with the tooltips.


I just want to know what my spells do before I have to use them and not learn in the heat of battle some previously good spells are now crap. I also don't want to have to rely on ACT to understand all that.

ACT is good for optimisation, to minmax, to get better at the class and better rotation but you first need a clear tooltip

and THAT, we don't have.
(especially when heal parse is harder to read than dps parse coz u never know the full numbers)
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:50 PM   #160
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Well yes, if your primary heals are defunct then you proactively press the good ones you have. But once again, your heals were doing something period and the reason you didn't spam them was because temps are too strong/ they weren't needed.

See key word, Heal Intensive, you're trying to respond to a post about heal intensive fights and come with a example from a PQ..... which have bonkers mechanics applied to them all over the place.
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:52 PM   #161
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I fully agree with your assessment of your posts.
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Old 10-23-2018, 03:04 PM   #162
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PG - Not PQ !

here we're talking about the real values of heals/wards. if you actually want to dps between heals, u want to choose them carefully. That's where having clear tooltip is important.

That's where if oberon is the biggest ward in library, should also be the biggest in heroics
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Old 10-23-2018, 03:21 PM   #163
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Apply same thing said about PQ apply to PG, because those also had silly mechanics all over the place.
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:00 PM   #164
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At last, something we agree on. The percent-based heals in group PG and current PoP PQ, are the main reason I never run them any more - run around and spam heals, hoping it will be enough to keep people alive, no time for anything else.
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:12 PM   #165
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it looks like u havent played a shaman on beta........the wards DOESENT stack!!!!!! yeah u can cast both wards ( umbral barrier and soul shackle for example) but not both wards will be used. When u cast Soul Shacle before Barrier than Soul would be used first till they ends and then would Barrier used.

Healer are NOT only Healers. Just my 2 cent. We have a tons of debuffs/buffs ect. Should we stopp casting them? yeah i know the most debuffs will bring nothing but we cast them.


most players expect hps and dps from a healer, let's stop making dps and just press our healing buttons and then we will not do any more.
With ascension we can do dps.

I agree with Mermut. I would like to know wich heal i must use at the moment when my grp is dropping hp. The most time Transcendence is enough but Sometimes i need Spirit Tap Totemic Protection or Ancestral Channeling to hold my group alive. So why should i Press some of these Things with long reuse when Transcendence is enough or maybe Ancestral Savior with Healproc skilled.

For now it look like i must use the most of my heal to get my grp alive without doing anything other.

And then we have our "suicide" dd´s with Fiery Tyrann.......yeah i can use Torpor on ONE single target to keep him alive but what will i do when i have three of them in grp......thats not really funny ladies.

That debuff in grp innis will affect all healers. So no one will heal alone or when we will heal alone we can/must spam healing without touching our ascensions debuffs or anything else.

And that is really sad but hey we will see and lets testing it when it goes live.

We can cry here two weeks more and they wouldnt change anything.

We all have to live with it and should do the best of it.
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Old 10-23-2018, 08:06 PM   #166
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This seams all a bit odd, as a Mystic playing since Release, i ask me what my Role is. With the Healdebuff and the new wardnerv, what should i do now? To cast Debuffs don't make sense, aside Echos of the Ancients. Damage Spells contribute around 1% each to my dps, even procs do more. Wendigo, Stampede, Slothfull Spirit, Velium Winds, Glacial Flames, Plaque, Wrath of the Ancients, Lunar Attendant, Ancestral Sentry, Premonition, lethargy, deteriorate,haze, lamenting Soul fornExample are all Spells are beneath notice. I would Appreciate it if Debuff the Mobs would get more Weight. Also the Groupbuffs
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Old 10-24-2018, 07:09 AM   #167
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Is it intended that on Ancestral Support the skill point Whispers of the past ( mystic prestige first tre left side middle skill point)
is removed? i have skilled it but i havent any effects on the Skill?? when it is intended.....why?? when not....can we have it back pls
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Old 10-24-2018, 08:01 AM   #168
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especially with the no-bypasseable stiffles
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:14 AM   #169
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thats possible but i cant test it because the effect is gone.....i skilled it but have no effect on that spell....normally would stand inside the spell....make immune to....... but this effect is completely removed
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:31 PM   #170
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With the changes to heal mechanics it would be nice if reactives changed from "When any damage is " to "When at least X damage is" (where X is some reasonable amount, or a percent of the heal value) so that they don't vanish in a flash from a flurry of tiny hits. Stacks of reactives like malevolent diatribe are gone instantly in the new heroics and accomplish very little. I think this sort of changeup would do more to level the balance between heal types than excessive use of bleedthrough does.
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Old 10-24-2018, 05:45 PM   #171
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o_O I hadn't notice that. Yeah, that's a HUGE problem. The prestige points are taken to give the control effects immunity/breaker to the ability, but it's not appearing IN the ability.
If it's a bug, it should be fixed, if it's 'intended', they need change the prestige to actually do something..
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Old 10-24-2018, 08:18 PM   #172
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Many of the zones seem to be following the Guk pattern of making it so abilities that prevent or break control effects don't work. For reasons why they're making such abilities useless....., you'd have to ask the devs.
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Old 10-26-2018, 06:03 AM   #173
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I find it somewhat disturbing the level of hostility here directed at healers trying to raise considerable important issues with regards to how healers will have to "deal" with the new changes after all the dev staff with all due respect has never gone back on global mechanics change that healers have had to deal with regardless if poorly thought out and/or concerns ignored or delayed. Players high fiving and patting themselves on their backs cause 'them damm shaman had it coming" seem to miss the fact the nerf is for all healers and all types of heals. As for the dps players posting suggest you take your class and apply the same sort of debuff to yourself and consider the ramifications...its not a pretty picture. Healers may be able to adjust in due time albeit with some changes but hiding the mechanics info is quite frankly bad form. As for the anti shaman ramblings might wanna stop with the cutting ones nose off to spite your face mentality it doesn't suit you.
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Old 10-26-2018, 05:06 PM   #174
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Go look at past posts by the people doing this. It isn't surprising much.
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Old 10-27-2018, 12:07 AM   #175
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Considering globally healers that is all healers are looking at a double whammy nerf of changes to bleed-through damage NO LONGER will be mitigated by the stacking of wards coupled with the hidden heal debuff dropping heals to garbage essentially forcing healers to spam heal whatever in hopes of keeping players alive...this is a complete slap in the face of the one part of the playing community that in all honesty matters period. We are the ones constantly asked to heal mechanics which should have never been brought into the game without serious community feedback. We are the ones asked to heal tanks from one shots years after we were officially promised NO MORE ONE SHOTS... we are the ones keeping the dps alive through those same mechanics...we are the ones constantly asked to contribute dps and debuffs all the while trying to keep everyone alive and yet the arrogance of some to assume we want to tag along and be nothing more than what equated to pocket healers. You think I'm pissed your damm right and from what I heard in Discord and the direct chat i am not the only one. Either change is a kick in the nether region taken together it is going to be a nightmare to field the heals needed to run a raid as healers stop playing healers.
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Old 10-27-2018, 05:39 PM   #176
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I am currently on beta as an Inq but haven't had the time or chance to do any heroics yet. I am currently wondering a few things as I am torn between 2 different types of feedback; I read here on forums how healing is a struggle and I have friends who have said they have done heroics just fine in regards to [solo healer] healing.
The few things that I am wondering:
1) With the current state of changes, what healer do you feel is struggling the least?
2) Do you think this change in healing is sort of meant (not primarily) for healers and tanks to coordinate temps?
3) What kind of gear/stats are healers here testing with?
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Old 10-27-2018, 06:18 PM   #177
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Healing CAN be done in heroics, but it is significantly more work and is much... spammier... when it comes to heals. The lack of information on the size of the debuff and how it works means that tooltip information on heals is almost entirely useless in heroic/raid zones as even the comparative size of heals/wards is not necessarily consistent.
1) I'm guessing templars and wardens will probably have it 'easiest' as they have a group ward (provided warden has the eth adorn) and lots of other heals.
2) The devs haven't told us why the double-whammy of BT changes and massive hidden debuff (tests show even t1 has ~60-75%+ debuff to all heals though it varies, even on the same toon, between different heals). My guess is that one reason is to slow down how fast we go through the zones. It would be less objectionable if we had in game information about exactly what the debuff is doing... or at the very least the SIZE of the debuff.
3) I've tested with the beta scaling gear as I don't have the time to grind through solos to get a full set of CD gear to meet the resolve requirements otherwise (PoP raid gear is not sufficient to meant t1 heroic requirements). The mastercrafted gear has the resolve, but the potency, cb and other values on it are abysmal.
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Old 10-28-2018, 06:22 AM   #178
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The simple answer to your second question seems to be the belief that healers are the easiest to anger....can't very well try and slow down progression by applying the same sort of mechanics to tanks/scouts/mages (applying a 50-70%) debuff to them would have the devs running for the hills) but since the healer community rarely puts enough pressure on the forums to get changes made and after all as some dps players said we're only healbots there to spam well than nerf healers and still slow down progress through the xpac.
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Old 10-28-2018, 11:55 PM   #179
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It's going to be interesting to see how the developers try to un-break healers that they began to break around AoM, then progressively continued to break in every subsequent expansion.
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:09 AM   #180
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Just to make things more... interesting... they've also added mob AoE abilities that completely ignore wards...
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