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Old 12-27-2006, 01:00 PM   #1
The Dark Savant

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I've read on these forums a few times that Coercers can be parsing around 800-1k DPS. I'm not unfamiliar with maximising combat DPS - I parse well with my brigand - but on my coercer I don't parse anywhere near these figures; so I can only assume I'm doing something wrong. If I ignore CC and just attempt to DPS, I work hard to parse ~400DPS, with of course DPS spikes when Auspex or Spell Scourge do their thing.I'm specced down to Perpetuality in the AGI line, with the rest of my points spent in the Resistances EOF line and a little way into the Coercion EOF line (two extra triggers in Magus and extra dehate, that's it so far.) My damage spells are a mix of masters, adept3s and adept1s (VT and Stroke ad1, breakdown and sonic ad3, torrent m1, auspex M1, scourge ad1). I know I could see a definite DPS improvement by mastering my spells, that's a given.Leaving aside the reactives for a moment, our CA damage seems to be limiting. Our big hitters, the torrent and wail lines, are on longer timers - no consistent high DPS there. I use Stroke whenever it's up, squeezing it between spells. Breakdown's biggest benefit is the debuff, Vicious Torment the mana drain - their DOTs are fairly feeble, but I spam them anyway.Our biggest hitting attacks are of course the reactives, primarily Auspex and Spell Scourge. However, I can't seem to get steady DPS out of these in group situations - a tank's avoidance or a multitude of stuns thwarts Auspex, and Spell Scourge is as great or as a mediocre as the mob's spell casting ability. The despotic mind line is entirely unreliable thanks to the odd way NPCs use power.The final piece to the puzzle may be procs - I currently have Grizzlefazzle and the collection earring, but no other proc item. Is it a lack of proc gear that holds back my DPS?As for my attack chain - at the moment I start with ravaged psyche, chronosiphon, then stroke, breakdown, auspex, stroke, spell scourge, stroke - and when the timers align, tashiana, stroke, ego torrent, stroke, sonic boom, stroke; unless I'm saving those powers for their control uses. Then it's back to breakdown again (I spam the dots hoping to proc).There's also gaze, which seems to add an insubstantial amount to single target DPS at best, and despotic mind, which I throw onto the rare mob that I know takes some substantial mana damage.Any tips?
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Old 12-27-2006, 05:02 PM   #2
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Hey, next time ya ask could ya do 2 things:

1. go across the forums for info (havent looked myself this time) cause im sure there is a post about this from tanatus or someone else on which tanatus replied with valid answeres!

2. define yer DPS setting as in raid / group / solo! cause right now its kinda a flakey question!

Anyways lets assume yer talking about raids cause in the end game thats all that really matters. Lets say yer in the MT group consisting of 1 guardian 1 templar 1 defiler 1 dirge 1 assasin 1 Coercer!

Now look closer to that group are there any classes in there that add to YOUR dps?

The answere is no you are just supporting that group with extra hate for the MT and some harm links across the raid for wizzies etc so for that group dps with your AA spec is good around 200/600 ish very much dependant on yer gear and master spells ofc!

Now if ya wanna improve this to say 400/800 or even 600/1000 if ya really time everything perfectly then ya should swap the resist line AA for the extra spell crit line it gives so much more DPS but again this is very dependant on ....you know the answer!

But in the end yer not doing that badly tbh for raiding dps

Now for a non MT group:

lets say ya have the perfect setup consisting of 1 troubadour 1 fury 1 wizzard actually thats all ya need maybe toss an extra wizzy in there or something! and maybe a tank for some HP but thats not needed for DPS!

Anyways your dps with yer current spec would be around 600/900 if ya play it right ofc and why ? cause of procs from the troubadour forgot the name of it also they get an AA that allows even more procs! then the wizzies with frigid winds is amazing add that up and oh my ya god a boatload a DPS with yer perpentuality!

Now try to add the extra spell crits to it and yer masters and maybe some extra proc gear you know what ya would be able to reach? i have reached as much as 1800 dps with and average of 1200 zonewide!

Now how did i manage to reach this or figure this out ? with the help of all the coercers on this forum and on my server do some tests yerself if ya dont believe me i know ya wont so try it you will be amazed how much agroe yer able to pull!

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Old 12-27-2006, 05:13 PM   #3
The Dark Savant

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AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:

Hey, next time ya ask could ya do 2 things:

1. go across the forums for info (havent looked myself this time) cause im sure there is a post about this from tanatus or someone else on which tanatus replied with valid answeres!


I've often seen Tantatus and others mention the DPS a coercer should be parsing, and snippets about improving it here and there, but I've never seen to my memory a proper breakdown of how this DPS is obtained. I might've had to search harder to find it, though. There's no similar thread on the first few pages so hopefully it's not too much of a board crime SMILEY


2. define yer DPS setting as in raid / group / solo! cause right now its kinda a flakey question!


Group/raid primarily - my solo DPS is sufficient for the task.


Anyways lets assume yer talking about raids cause in the end game thats all that really matters. Lets say yer in the MT group consisting of 1 guardian 1 templar 1 defiler 1 dirge 1 assasin 1 Coercer!

Now look closer to that group are there any classes in there that add to YOUR dps?

The answere is no you are just supporting that group with extra hate for the MT and some harm links across the raid for wizzies etc so for that group dps with your AA spec is good around 200/600 ish very much dependant on yer gear and master spells ofc!

Now if ya wanna improve this to say 400/800 or even 600/1000 if ya really time everything perfectly then ya should swap the resist line AA for the extra spell crit line it gives so much more DPS but again this is very dependant on ....you know the answer!

But in the end yer not doing that badly tbh for raiding dps

Now for a non MT group:

lets say ya have the perfect setup consisting of 1 troubadour 1 fury 1 wizzard actually thats all ya need maybe toss an extra wizzy in there or something! and maybe a tank for some HP but thats not needed for DPS!

Anyways your dps with yer current spec would be around 600/900 if ya play it right ofc and why ? cause of procs from the troubadour forgot the name of it also they get an AA that allows even more procs! then the wizzies with frigid winds is amazing add that up and oh my ya god a boatload a DPS with yer perpentuality!

Now try to add the extra spell crits to it and yer masters and maybe some extra proc gear you know what ya would be able to reach? i have reached as much as 1800 dps with and average of 1200 zonewide!

Now how did i manage to reach this or figure this out ? with the help of all the coercers on this forum and on my server do some tests yerself if ya dont believe me i know ya wont so try it you will be amazed how much agroe yer able to pull!


That's pretty much what I wanted to know! So the source of the DPS is procs and support from other classes rather than the direct result of some special strategy on the coercer's behalf - makes sense. I'm interested to know if there are any ways I could improve my group DPS, as well, because raiding is an infrequent activity for me.Thanks a lot for the information, I'll see how things go in different group setups and work from there. I apologise if this question is a repeat, but you've presented some good advice so the thread won't go to waste.
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:18 PM   #4
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From a raid perspective I wouldn't worry about your DPS honestly. Some here can get those numbers as stated earlier if they are in the right group and are AA spec'd for it. I am usually around 400 DPS, and just about all my damage spells are mastered. Having more proc'ing items will help you alot regardless of what AA lines you go down. I Have my First 50 AA's in Sta and Wis for the critical heals and group de-hate. Obviously you want to do the best DPS you can but I wouldn't sacrafice my utility for it.
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Old 12-27-2006, 09:03 PM   #5
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/agree
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:17 AM   #6
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It also depends on what mob you fight. I'm Agi and Sta specced, mostly MT group on raids, and I average 600 with spikes up to 1200. If you're fighting a mob that's prone to AEs, cast Spell Scourge first, then Auspex, etc. If you're fighting a scout mob, pop Auspex first. Skarize centurions in Labs, I can pull 1k easily ... same with Infiltrators and ravagers in Freethinker's.
 
Normal grouping DPS isn't that hot for coercers. It's a lot different from raiding because you're not usually with people that are well-geared, so you'll be popping stuns to keep the tank alive and mezzing to keep the group alive because they wouldn't know how to pull. If you're worried about your DPS, then just charm a caster mob (in most situations) and let that do the work.
 
Most, if not all, of the parses you see posted will be in raiding situations.
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Old 12-28-2006, 05:04 PM   #7
The Dark Savant

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Thanks guys. I guess I'll be content with the DPS I'm doing (considering I add so much to a group with my other spells) and stop worrying about the parse. SMILEY
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Old 12-28-2006, 07:01 PM   #8
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In whatever group you are there is an other factor, how good/bad your raid is.
Proc's only proc if a mob succesfully hit a tank or succesfully cast a spell.
 
A good raid is consitantly in debuffing a mob very well, so if the mob dies fast, (due high dps and good debuffs) it means your raid is good, your tank is hit alot less, and mobs who alreadyhardly cast are casting even less.
 
This leads to a drop in dps from your reactive part, most orange mobs have the ability to give coercers a higher dps than yellow mobs.
 
If you are casting consitantly and not getting high dps, than your reactives aren't proccing much.
 
I try to do good dps on evry raid, however I don't worry much if it isn't that high.
 
 
In normal groups stunn's are the biggest devil (alongside stiffles and dazes), in raids it hardly lowers your dps, but can prevent some nice dps on the tank (healing).
 
 
ofcourse i you can kill as a raid a multi-encounter very fast (ea the 8mob encounter in lyc) you can get a nice spike dam.
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Old 12-29-2006, 04:37 AM   #9
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Get all your spells ad3 at least first, resistability and more damage from the upgrade = more damage.

INT line 4-4-4-5-8
AGI line 4-4-4-4-8

Need to get some proc gear (nice earring from collection quest in KoS, mystical orb's, then theres the bone clapsed gurdle (which
someone can now make for you with the new tradeskill system as long as you have the ingrediants and they have done it before).

30% more damage from below 30% power helps and if you use mana flow properly you can keep your power up fine (coupled with
manastone and consuming your hp for power).

But the absolute best way to keep your damage up is get Auspex and Spell Scourge in first, then Marred Psyche and Breakdown,
then you can cast whatever is up (sonic boom, ego torrent, vicious torment (great dot, mana free basically high dmg), stroke,
perilous gaze, etc) and get procs from your gear.  I'm to the point with gear that whenever I nuke one thing I usually get 1-3 procs
per DD.  It's pretty sweet to nuke for 750 and proc for 850, 700, and 1800 damage.

But yah, proc gear and fast casting, get Auspex and Spell Scourge in fast then debuffs...

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Old 12-29-2006, 04:40 AM   #10
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AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:

Anyways lets assume yer talking about raids cause in the end game thats all that really matters. Lets say yer in the MT group consisting of 1 guardian 1 templar 1 defiler 1 dirge 1 assasin 1 Coercer!

Now look closer to that group are there any classes in there that add to YOUR dps?

The answere is no ...


The answer is yes.  Both the Templar and the Dirge can add to your proc % and make you proc 4x more and add over 400 DPS to your total (that is...
depending on how they set up their AA)
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Old 12-29-2006, 04:44 AM   #11
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I still fail to see why people are going for (well I can see if theres no dirge in your group)  these so called "utility AA".

Doesnt make sense...the extra heal crit % doesnt do jack from all the tests I've done, in the end, if your healers are
good enough then you dont need the heal crit % added.  And the deaggro line...thats a waste of AA...what is it -8% hate
or something? Thats so minute, if your tank has a dirge and coercer, hate is the last thing they are worried about.

...or should be

Anywho...why not go DPS?  I hardly ever use channel even now because with the dirge and myself we can keep power
up just fine as long as I rotate out mana flow properly.  I went down full AGI and INT and see no difference in my groups
healing capability but I see a near 600-800 DPS boost for myself...which is a little better.

And yes, did a 18 minute fight without using channel...it is possible :smileytongue:

 

IMO

Message Edited by Lleinen on 12-28-2006 03:45 PM

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Old 12-29-2006, 04:55 AM   #12
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I don't like the agi line, its a personal thing. But I do like the spell crits. I LIKE being utility. I like having 10+ minute fights where the MT group is never below 50% power. I like doing the stuns and dazes on the mobs to help the healers out. I enjoy finding that person low on power and doing a Mana Flow before they run out of power. I know my healers notice the difference between me and the other coercer in my guild, who is spec'd for dps. They tell me they notice the difference.
 
I do agree the hate redux on Sta line sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] (8% is nothing) so I didn't waste my AA there. But I do like the heal crits (they work for power taps too!) and I love spell procs. I might opt to respec and pour more points into the int line, but I don't like the agi line. I just found that I was running out of spells to cast or going OOP way too fast, which is pointless when i wasn't max'ed on Int. I didn't notice any noticible dps increase, but that might be noticed if fully agi/int.
 
I've personally spec'd myself to the MT group. I max'd all power regen that doesn't count against cap, I got Mana Ward (which is annoying but does help), I will be getting Coercive healing. None of the other EOF AA's appeal to me. Sure, Thought Snap looks cool, but the AA's leading up to it are a waste in my eyes.

Message Edited by badmnky on 01-03-2007 03:12 PM

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Old 01-01-2007, 02:51 AM   #13
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Personal DPS is proportional to RAID dps.  In a raid where our dps is around 22k, I am usually at 800.  My spec is agility/wisdom for the haste, and then also for the +resists and +subjugation.  I took away crits and didn't notice much of a difference in my personal dps.  Proc gear helps a bit, it makes up about 15% of my dps withFitzpitzlesRing of SupremacyBand of ThuleInvoker OrbI don't have a Cheldrak dagger or use wand of second life anymore, and don't have synergism or dissonant note.  Imbues and other procs will get your dps higher, and if you want a workout, go full agility/int for perpetuatlity and volatile magic...you'll do 30% more dps but your power has to stay under 30%.  I didn't like the headache of that so I specc'd out of intelligence completely.
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Old 01-01-2007, 09:29 PM   #14
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Lleinen wrote:


AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:

Anyways lets assume yer talking about raids cause in the end game thats all that really matters. Lets say yer in the MT group consisting of 1 guardian 1 templar 1 defiler 1 dirge 1 assasin 1 Coercer!

Now look closer to that group are there any classes in there that add to YOUR dps?

The answere is no ...


The answer is yes.  Both the Templar and the Dirge can add to your proc % and make you proc 4x more and add over 400 DPS to your total (that is...
depending on how they set up their AA)



yer right but as ya stated they need to9 fix their AA for this! the templar has a faster recast for the group meaning refresh taunts faster and ofc yer nukes and dots etc but i am not familiar with their AA since i dont play a dirge nor a templar other then what ive seen macroed in groups!

So i left it out of the equation, anyways feel free to explain their AA setup exactly for the coercers benefit... i just rolled with 1. the stuff i knew about 2. the stuff that isnt too dependant on other peoples choices on AA 3. yer group setups and spell lvls

but well i guess yer right in the end

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Old 01-02-2007, 04:48 AM   #15
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ScamprinSlippy wrote:
Personal DPS is proportional to RAID dps.  In a raid where our dps is around 22k, I am usually at 800.  My spec is agility/wisdom for the haste, and then also for the +resists and +subjugation.  I took away crits and didn't notice much of a difference in my personal dps.  Proc gear helps a bit, it makes up about 15% of my dps with

Fitzpitzles
Ring of Supremacy
Band of Thule
Invoker Orb

I don't have a Cheldrak dagger or use wand of second life anymore, and don't have synergism or dissonant note.  Imbues and other procs will get your dps higher, and if you want a workout, go full agility/int for perpetuatlity and volatile magic...you'll do 30% more dps but your power has to stay under 30%.  I didn't like the headache of that so I specc'd out of intelligence completely.



Yah if you wanna do any decent DPS if you can get that 30% INT line thing, god i love it
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:49 AM   #16
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> lets say ya have the perfect setup consisting of 1 troubadour 1 fury 1 wizzard actually thats all ya need maybe toss an extra wizzy in there or > something! and maybe a tank for some HP but thats not needed for DPS!
while this setup might max out the coercers DPS there remains the question wether a meelee DPS group like monk, coercer, inquisitor plus any three scouts with 4 times DPS buff plus inqui debuffs might be better for the raid as a whole...
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Old 01-06-2007, 01:23 PM   #17
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Just hook another group up with berserker, dirge, inquis, bruiser, and 2 more DPS...yummy yummy fun time
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Old 01-06-2007, 03:53 PM   #18
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On Raids, no one expects of you to be in the highend of DPS - We provide CC, Power, Hate Gain/decrease and DPS increase, and have the ability to stun/mez (interupt) those EPICs...
 
I have all Tier 7 Mastered and my DPS is approx 400-600 DPS with my guild, BUT please note that we usally only RAID with 3 groups with a total of 7.000-9.000 DPS (in Lab)
 
This means that what ever I do (add proc gear - whatever possible to increase DPS) I cannot be compered with a raiding coercer who's guild has a Total RAID DPS of 20.000....
 
I.e. The last fight with Corsolander took 14 minutes, I had a DPS of 350, ( Wizard and Warlock about 450 DPS...)
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Old 01-15-2007, 12:02 PM   #19
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You know what's really fun though... If an Illus or another mage DPS makes fun of your raid DPS (or something of the sort) play with thier aggro and get them killed a few times. They'll shut up really quickly. DPS isn't the hugest thing for a Coercer unless that's what you are shooting for. Oh yeah we could make the parse easily, if we are spec-ed for it, but we lose a lot of utility options if we do. Although, just because you are utility doesn't mean you don't hit the parse. Learn the timing on yoru spells, which mobs on raids cast, which ones melee hard, then you'll know which combos to do to get up there on DPS. I'm full utility (minus the group deaggro, swapped for INT) and I make 500 ~ 800 constantly. Break 1k from time time. Few tips;- Timing timing timing! Learn your spells durations AND cast times. - Stroke Stroke Stroke! Cast one or two spells and hit this sucker every single time it pops. - Tash is a wonderful spell down your resist line that can help land debuffs at first and help your damage later!- Auspex is your friend! Find out which mobs cast and which melee like crazy. The 2 extra ticks in Auspex will help tones, plus there's an awsome healer buff down the bottem!- Don't knock the little damage, you'ed be surprised what a little proc or damage increase here and there can do to your overall DPS.- AEs FTW! We have some HUGE AE damage if the fight is fast. Check out who's on the raid, if you have no AE damage start with the DoT and work to SB, if you have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] loads, start with SB and ET. You'll break 2k, trust me, just try not ot die in the proccess. ^_^Enjoy!
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Old 01-16-2007, 01:44 AM   #20
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So what about for solo?  Int and Agi AA?
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Old 01-16-2007, 05:15 AM   #21
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da5idblacksun wrote:
So what about for solo?  Int and Agi AA?



INT/AGI is the line-up I use for non-MT role.

I've got my FT gear and Procs on hotkey, ie swap between my grizsfazzle and Second life ect... depending on PR vs Proc damage I need.  Out of all my multiple respec's (2 x 10p respec club) this gets me the highest dps.  Proc over any stat and ft over INT keeps the under 30% ngledgable for me. INT at raids is between 620-780 depending on the group and spike INT buffs (SK ect...).  I keep a nice balance at 10% power for most of the raid to keep the 30% bonus up. 

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