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Old 10-20-2012, 09:56 AM   #31
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Filly67 wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Or only implement this change if its a player and their merc.

hmmmm, seems ironic coming from the source. 

LOL /agree

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Old 10-20-2012, 10:02 AM   #32
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Two boxers and players that enjoy helping newblets are the ones getting hurt here. Not to mention people just coming to EQ2 for the first time. We help them. Sometimes we help get them through a few tough levels (though we recognize too much PL is a bad thing for a new player).

In regards to all the two boxers alt-a-holics out there... this is a catastrophe! In one foul swoop, SOE will negate the entire purpose for paying for a second account. I'm not going to stop all combat and switch screens just so my non AOE class alt can hit every mob my zerker just pulled. That's nonsense and frankly it's stupid on the part of the devs if they value retention!!!!!

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Old 10-20-2012, 11:16 AM   #33
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1.  Group penalty removed - Good job.  

2.  Nerf on the powerleveling :

Good stuff actually because I have always been pro-merc and against afk-merc-botting or whatever you wish to call this little exploit.  Real botters are still going to bot so that will not change anything with that area.  SOE can now bring in powerful mercs that folks will buy up quicker due to this change (think about it.)  The two box folks can still do what they do just with alittle more...mmm thinking attached.  

3.  280aa with expansion would not suprise me and infact if this is true I am for it completely.  Grinding aa on alts is just boring and just not fun at all.  We pay for fun.  Add content not assembly lines.  

I like leveling in this game.  Fun lots of quests etc... I really dislike aa grinding.  Please do not feed us with "oh well you just do not like challenging content..."  that is as challenging as flipping hamburgers eight hours a day... easy but zzzzz.

4.  Assuming #3 is going in the argument with "folks will now learn how to play toons" is at best in limbo with the 280aa given etc.. 

5. AA grinding has been in error anyway as I have gotten all 320aa's numerous times at lv 10 on double weekends.  That being said I also have done it solo at level 10 (no pl.)  So you can see where the AA system is in need of an overhall.

6.  Powerful mercs as stated in #2 may come as a result because at least now you still have to participate in the battle so in theory you cannot  have Lucan as a merc just creating chaos on mobs while you eat your jumjum SMILEY

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Old 10-20-2012, 11:23 AM   #34
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A simple solution would be the requirement to physically send in pets and mercs by means of the pet window.

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Old 10-20-2012, 11:31 AM   #35
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For all the boxers complaining...

Would ISBoxer be a solution to this problem?  I've never actually used it but if I understand the program description it can send commands to other game windows.

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Old 10-20-2012, 12:19 PM   #36
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I will never understand the teams stance on xp and leveling. There is no consistency and seemingly little thought applied. I just can't draw the logical connections. It's getting to the point of how exactly are people supposed to level in this game? Are we really supposed to only quest from 1 to 92? The dungeons don't have enough mobs with a fast enough respawn, a problem that is only going to be amplified by this change which does nothing but make leveling take longer. Anything with respawning mobs is nerfed in to oblivion so people can't level there. Everyone likes to say the game is so big, but it really isn't. How exactly are people supposed to level? I've been playing this game for 8 years, if I want to level another character I don't want to do those quests again. If your goal is to make it so I never level another character again this will accomplish that. I can't see it accomplishing anything else.
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Old 10-20-2012, 12:20 PM   #37
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Hennyo wrote:

Any participating group member in any completely non trivial content will always end up on a mobs hate list just by playing normally.

Wrong.

I suspect we're playing the game at different levels.  If I take 5 of my guild mates thru a current teir SS dungeon with a 6th pickup player, I promise you many things are dieing before that person gets on the hate list.  Pull 2-5 encounters and they all die in 3 seconds.  Sometimes the healer wont get on the list if he didn't have pre-heals going.

Hate list is just the flat out wrong way to determine inactivity in a game where dps potential is so huge compaired to the mob's HP pools.

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Old 10-20-2012, 12:23 PM   #38
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

For all the boxers complaining...

Would ISBoxer be a solution to this problem?  I've never actually used it but if I understand the program description it can send commands to other game windows.

No.

Your tank is still going to kill things faster than whoever else is in the group can hit every mob, or perform some action to be hated by every mob.  Particularly when the tank fires an arrow to pull and 4 mobs fall down and die.  Then the zerker swings one melee round ae auto fires and 4 more mobs fall down and die.  If he's running ED proc, oh man, more mobs just fell down and died.

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Old 10-20-2012, 12:23 PM   #39
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Anybody remember that they tried this with the necroid and conjuror? It didn't work then, it wont work now!!!

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Old 10-20-2012, 12:26 PM   #40
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ZUES wrote:

Anybody remember that they tried this with the necroid and conjuror? It didn't work then, it wont work now!!!

I could care less about the afkers.  Its honestly so little xp for so little reward with so high likelyhood of being reported, its simply not worth it. 

However, 3 players with a mentored tank trying to level up fast and actively playing, should not lose out on xp just cause the mobs die too fast.

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Old 10-20-2012, 12:36 PM   #41
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Filly67 wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Or only implement this change if its a player and their merc.

So punish thoses that don't want to group with the friendly folks of EQ2?  hmmmm, seems ironic coming from the source.  SOE has been trying to encourage people with promises that you can solo or two man with the help of mercs.  We are already losing status to them and you want to pile it on. 

I am sure you misunderstand me. If this change is being made to prevent people who AFK level with a merc, then how would only implementing a change that does not reward experience for not being on a hate list affect people who actually PLAY with their merc? Unless you're killing stuff far below your current level, playing with your merc shouldn't result in you not getting experience. And you can still ignore everyone else like you're so keen to do.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "seems ironic coming from the source." What do you mean by this? I am confused about your stance here, because on one hand you seem to want to play with your merc, and on the other hand, you seem to be begrudging people who want to duo/molo through content.

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Old 10-20-2012, 12:36 PM   #42
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It's pretty funny that they will be implementing this at the same time they give everyone who shells out $40 280 AA. You can't nerf grinding and then shortcut the biggest grind in the game on the same day, that's just idiotic and stupid. Grinding anything to any level these days is nothing more than a speedbump, there is no prestige in it, no accomplishment, stop doing stupid crap that ticks off half of your already small and ticked off playerbase to fix issues that do not exist or do not matter. Make the game more enjoyable (ie remove penalty for grouping PERIOD) and not unnecessarily tedious.

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Old 10-20-2012, 12:40 PM   #43
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Ulrichvon wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

For all the boxers complaining...

Would ISBoxer be a solution to this problem?  I've never actually used it but if I understand the program description it can send commands to other game windows.

No.

Your tank is still going to kill things faster than whoever else is in the group can hit every mob, or perform some action to be hated by every mob.  Particularly when the tank fires an arrow to pull and 4 mobs fall down and die.  Then the zerker swings one melee round ae auto fires and 4 more mobs fall down and die.  If he's running ED proc, oh man, more mobs just fell down and died.

Ok, we're talking two totally different things.  You are talking powerleveling, I'm talking boxing.

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Old 10-20-2012, 12:46 PM   #44
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

Your tank is still going to kill things faster than whoever else is in the group can hit every mob, or perform some action to be hated by every mob.  Particularly when the tank fires an arrow to pull and 4 mobs fall down and die.  Then the zerker swings one melee round ae auto fires and 4 more mobs fall down and die.  If he's running ED proc, oh man, more mobs just fell down and died.

Ok, we're talking two totally different things.  You are talking powerleveling, I'm talking boxing.

As long as your boxing things that can't be one shot killed (heroics not quest mobs) then yes isBoxer could be used to perform actions to get on hate list. 

But you get into some tough grey area here.  ISBoxer in itself is not a EULA violation.  The PnP and tiling, and quick swapping between screens is all legal.  However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation.  So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.

However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation.  So long as each action is attributed to a specific keypress or click, and one keypress or click does not cause more than one action to be performed (outside of an ingame macro), everything is kosher.

This is getting off topic, and honestly if you even follow these descriptions you understand just how convaluded SoE has made their EULA interpretation.  Other games like WoW, LoTRo and many others have no issue with key forwarding to other sessions and you can freely use all features of ISBoxer.  However in EQ2 you can only use a small subset and not be in violation.

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Old 10-20-2012, 12:52 PM   #45
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Ulrichvon wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

Your tank is still going to kill things faster than whoever else is in the group can hit every mob, or perform some action to be hated by every mob.  Particularly when the tank fires an arrow to pull and 4 mobs fall down and die.  Then the zerker swings one melee round ae auto fires and 4 more mobs fall down and die.  If he's running ED proc, oh man, more mobs just fell down and died.

Ok, we're talking two totally different things.  You are talking powerleveling, I'm talking boxing.

As long as your boxing things that can't be one shot killed (heroics not quest mobs) then yes isBoxer could be used to perform actions to get on hate list. 

But you get into some tough grey area here.  ISBoxer in itself is not a EULA violation.  The PnP and tiling, and quick swapping between screens is all legal.  However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation.  So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.

However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation.  So long as each action is attributed to a specific keypress or click, and one keypress or click does not cause more than one action to be performed (outside of an ingame macro), everything is kosher.

This is getting off topic, and honestly if you even follow these descriptions you understand just how convaluded SoE has made their EULA interpretation.  Other games like WoW, LoTRo and many others have no issue with key forwarding to other sessions and you can freely use all features of ISBoxer.  However in EQ2 you can only use a small subset and not be in violation.

Actually it's not against the EULA to broadcast the commands.  Per the rules you have to be at the computer.  Isboxer allows you to box multiple clients on the same computer.  So you are within the rules fully.  I remember a discussion about something similar to this a few years back that SOE responded on.

Copy and paste from post in 2009 by Kiara:

"

INC OFFICIAL RESPONSE!!! 

End of debate   Thank you very much everyone

Our terms of service state: (http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...p?p_faqid=12248)

6. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our sole discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game; (v) upon any violation of the Station Terms of Service and/or the Game Rules of Conduct and/or (vi) upon any violation of the Exchange Agreement. If we terminate this Agreement or suspend your Account under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the duration of the suspension and/or the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this Agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the Game, in which case we may provide you with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts.

So, multiboxing if you control all 6 characters signally and you have to type a command for all 6 characters separately is ok. Multi-boxing with the use of hardware OR software which allows you to control 6 characters with 1 command is not ok and considered in violation of the spirit of the game as it gives the player(s) an advantage over other players."

So let's recap how it works:

  1. You must be at the computer.
  2. Your must actively send unique commands to each, individual character/client either via hardware (wireless keyboards for example) or software.

As I described it earlier, it seems like all one has to do is use Isboxer to send the individual commands to those they are grouping with to ensure they hit the hate list.  Thus, multi-boxers are fine.  Powerlevelers?  There are other ways to get on the hate list.  As an example, a warden just has to place their spores spell on the tank and let the tank run up to stuff to be smacked once before the tank attacks.  A very large number of classes have some sort of reactive buff or other means (like a ward) to get that hate.  Still, I'm personally not concerned with the loss of powerlevelers.  Too many who don't know how to play their class due to it.  Worse, those bringing their friends into the game, powerleveling them up, and then dumping them at cap.  Those players get frustrated and leave in short order more often than not.  Combine that with the decimation of entire zones during double XP which affects new players...  yeah, more than glad to see the change.

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Old 10-20-2012, 01:19 PM   #46
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Old 10-20-2012, 01:30 PM   #47
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[email protected] wrote:

Brigh wrote:

I really don't know why people have such a problem with the already old thread issue with mercs here while over at EQ 1 it is expressly allowed.

People still sitting in eq1 after all these years obviously have no issue taking their time to complete whatever they need to, hell, some of the nameds have week long spawn times. (most)People in eq2 have much lower patience and do not wish to take 4-8 months to lvl a single toon to 92. Power leveling has been a part of this game for years now, to remove it(at this point) would do far more harm than good. You can't force people that have grown so accustomed to solo play to start stringing together groups of lvl 20s to lvl again like we were back in jolly old 2006. There simply isnt enough people lvling toons from scratch these days, PLing is required to keep people's interest in leveling new toons at all, and if they removed that element of the game or made it a total pain to do so, I for one would quit leveling new toons and probably eventually stop playing alltogether(no new toons, no new interest, period.

Quoting me and then talking about something that has nothing to do with the quote makes no sense.

[email protected] wrote:

I am also curious, exactly what does SOE mean when they say that the grouping XP penalty is being removed?Considering this is the same SOE who thought that we were already getting a "bonus" when grouping, I desire actual details, over vague one-liners. I am likely to view things differently (as a player of EQ2), compared to a member of the SOE team that is looking at a "spreadsheet", because I factor things like mob density, kill rates, respawn rates, transport speeds, etc.

In EQ 1 there is a group exp bonus after a certain amount of people are in the group with an increasing % for each person up to a certain number of people.

EQ II doesn't have this bonus, so the more you add, the less xp people get.

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Old 10-20-2012, 07:15 PM   #48
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Brigh wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I am also curious, exactly what does SOE mean when they say that the grouping XP penalty is being removed?Considering this is the same SOE who thought that we were already getting a "bonus" when grouping, I desire actual details, over vague one-liners. I am likely to view things differently (as a player of EQ2), compared to a member of the SOE team that is looking at a "spreadsheet", because I factor things like mob density, kill rates, respawn rates, transport speeds, etc.

In EQ 1 there is a group exp bonus after a certain amount of people are in the group with an increasing % for each person up to a certain number of people.

EQ II doesn't have this bonus, so the more you add, the less xp people get.

According to Lyndro (his post on another EXP related thread), we were already getting a "bonus" for adding additional group members. So you may want to check your facts.Quoting Lyndro : "In all cases, adding another person to the group (up to 6, this breaks once you form a raid)  increases the amount of experience that the game awards per kill."Link to post: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=521958#5790592So with all due respect, your reply does absolutely nothing to answer the question I put forth. Based on the statement from Lyndro, your assumption is incorrect. I am actually hoping for numerical details to be given from SOE, based on reasons I provided in my quoted post above.

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Old 10-20-2012, 07:19 PM   #49
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

Your tank is still going to kill things faster than whoever else is in the group can hit every mob, or perform some action to be hated by every mob.  Particularly when the tank fires an arrow to pull and 4 mobs fall down and die.  Then the zerker swings one melee round ae auto fires and 4 more mobs fall down and die.  If he's running ED proc, oh man, more mobs just fell down and died.

Ok, we're talking two totally different things.  You are talking powerleveling, I'm talking boxing.

As long as your boxing things that can't be one shot killed (heroics not quest mobs) then yes isBoxer could be used to perform actions to get on hate list. 

But you get into some tough grey area here.  ISBoxer in itself is not a EULA violation.  The PnP and tiling, and quick swapping between screens is all legal.  However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation.  So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.

However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation.  So long as each action is attributed to a specific keypress or click, and one keypress or click does not cause more than one action to be performed (outside of an ingame macro), everything is kosher.

This is getting off topic, and honestly if you even follow these descriptions you understand just how convaluded SoE has made their EULA interpretation.  Other games like WoW, LoTRo and many others have no issue with key forwarding to other sessions and you can freely use all features of ISBoxer.  However in EQ2 you can only use a small subset and not be in violation.

Actually it's not against the EULA to broadcast the commands.  Per the rules you have to be at the computer.  Isboxer allows you to box multiple clients on the same computer.  So you are within the rules fully.  I remember a discussion about something similar to this a few years back that SOE responded on.

Copy and paste from post in 2009 by Kiara:

"

INC OFFICIAL RESPONSE!!! 

End of debate   Thank you very much everyone

Our terms of service state: (http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...p?p_faqid=12248)

6. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our sole discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game; (v) upon any violation of the Station Terms of Service and/or the Game Rules of Conduct and/or (vi) upon any violation of the Exchange Agreement. If we terminate this Agreement or suspend your Account under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the duration of the suspension and/or the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this Agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the Game, in which case we may provide you with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts.

So, multiboxing if you control all 6 characters signally and you have to type a command for all 6 characters separately is ok. Multi-boxing with the use of hardware OR software which allows you to control 6 characters with 1 command is not ok and considered in violation of the spirit of the game as it gives the player(s) an advantage over other players."

So let's recap how it works:

  1. You must be at the computer.
  2. Your must actively send unique commands to each, individual character/client either via hardware (wireless keyboards for example) or software.

As I described it earlier, it seems like all one has to do is use Isboxer to send the individual commands to those they are grouping with to ensure they hit the hate list.  Thus, multi-boxers are fine.  Powerlevelers?  There are other ways to get on the hate list.  As an example, a warden just has to place their spores spell on the tank and let the tank run up to stuff to be smacked once before the tank attacks.  A very large number of classes have some sort of reactive buff or other means (like a ward) to get that hate.  Still, I'm personally not concerned with the loss of powerlevelers.  Too many who don't know how to play their class due to it.  Worse, those bringing their friends into the game, powerleveling them up, and then dumping them at cap.  Those players get frustrated and leave in short order more often than not.  Combine that with the decimation of entire zones during double XP which affects new players...  yeah, more than glad to see the change.

Deadcrickets2... Did you actually read Ulrichvon's post?I suggest you do. You tried to say he is wrong, only to turn around and post the same info he did, albeit in an epic wall of text.But grats on "ending the debate"?

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Old 10-20-2012, 07:24 PM   #50
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[email protected] wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

Your tank is still going to kill things faster than whoever else is in the group can hit every mob, or perform some action to be hated by every mob.  Particularly when the tank fires an arrow to pull and 4 mobs fall down and die.  Then the zerker swings one melee round ae auto fires and 4 more mobs fall down and die.  If he's running ED proc, oh man, more mobs just fell down and died.

Ok, we're talking two totally different things.  You are talking powerleveling, I'm talking boxing.

As long as your boxing things that can't be one shot killed (heroics not quest mobs) then yes isBoxer could be used to perform actions to get on hate list. 

But you get into some tough grey area here.  ISBoxer in itself is not a EULA violation.  The PnP and tiling, and quick swapping between screens is all legal.  However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation.  So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.

However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation.  So long as each action is attributed to a specific keypress or click, and one keypress or click does not cause more than one action to be performed (outside of an ingame macro), everything is kosher.

This is getting off topic, and honestly if you even follow these descriptions you understand just how convaluded SoE has made their EULA interpretation.  Other games like WoW, LoTRo and many others have no issue with key forwarding to other sessions and you can freely use all features of ISBoxer.  However in EQ2 you can only use a small subset and not be in violation.

Actually it's not against the EULA to broadcast the commands.  Per the rules you have to be at the computer.  Isboxer allows you to box multiple clients on the same computer.  So you are within the rules fully.  I remember a discussion about something similar to this a few years back that SOE responded on.

Copy and paste from post in 2009 by Kiara:

"

INC OFFICIAL RESPONSE!!! 

End of debate   Thank you very much everyone

Our terms of service state: (http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...p?p_faqid=12248)

6. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our sole discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game; (v) upon any violation of the Station Terms of Service and/or the Game Rules of Conduct and/or (vi) upon any violation of the Exchange Agreement. If we terminate this Agreement or suspend your Account under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the duration of the suspension and/or the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this Agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the Game, in which case we may provide you with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts.

So, multiboxing if you control all 6 characters signally and you have to type a command for all 6 characters separately is ok. Multi-boxing with the use of hardware OR software which allows you to control 6 characters with 1 command is not ok and considered in violation of the spirit of the game as it gives the player(s) an advantage over other players."

So let's recap how it works:

  1. You must be at the computer.
  2. Your must actively send unique commands to each, individual character/client either via hardware (wireless keyboards for example) or software.

As I described it earlier, it seems like all one has to do is use Isboxer to send the individual commands to those they are grouping with to ensure they hit the hate list.  Thus, multi-boxers are fine.  Powerlevelers?  There are other ways to get on the hate list.  As an example, a warden just has to place their spores spell on the tank and let the tank run up to stuff to be smacked once before the tank attacks.  A very large number of classes have some sort of reactive buff or other means (like a ward) to get that hate.  Still, I'm personally not concerned with the loss of powerlevelers.  Too many who don't know how to play their class due to it.  Worse, those bringing their friends into the game, powerleveling them up, and then dumping them at cap.  Those players get frustrated and leave in short order more often than not.  Combine that with the decimation of entire zones during double XP which affects new players...  yeah, more than glad to see the change.

Deadcrickets2... Did you actually read Ulrichvon's post?I suggest you do. You tried to say he is wrong, only to turn around and post the same info he did, albeit in an epic wall of text.But grats on "ending the debate"?

He stated that broadcasting was against the EULA.  I responded as to why it is not.  Could you care to explain how I "post the same info he did"?

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Old 10-20-2012, 07:30 PM   #51
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

Your tank is still going to kill things faster than whoever else is in the group can hit every mob, or perform some action to be hated by every mob.  Particularly when the tank fires an arrow to pull and 4 mobs fall down and die.  Then the zerker swings one melee round ae auto fires and 4 more mobs fall down and die.  If he's running ED proc, oh man, more mobs just fell down and died.

Ok, we're talking two totally different things.  You are talking powerleveling, I'm talking boxing.

As long as your boxing things that can't be one shot killed (heroics not quest mobs) then yes isBoxer could be used to perform actions to get on hate list. 

But you get into some tough grey area here.  ISBoxer in itself is not a EULA violation.  The PnP and tiling, and quick swapping between screens is all legal.  However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation.  So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.

However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation.  So long as each action is attributed to a specific keypress or click, and one keypress or click does not cause more than one action to be performed (outside of an ingame macro), everything is kosher.

This is getting off topic, and honestly if you even follow these descriptions you understand just how convaluded SoE has made their EULA interpretation.  Other games like WoW, LoTRo and many others have no issue with key forwarding to other sessions and you can freely use all features of ISBoxer.  However in EQ2 you can only use a small subset and not be in violation.

Actually it's not against the EULA to broadcast the commands.  Per the rules you have to be at the computer.  Isboxer allows you to box multiple clients on the same computer.  So you are within the rules fully.  I remember a discussion about something similar to this a few years back that SOE responded on.

Copy and paste from post in 2009 by Kiara:

"

INC OFFICIAL RESPONSE!!! 

End of debate   Thank you very much everyone

Our terms of service state: (http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...p?p_faqid=12248)

6. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our sole discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game; (v) upon any violation of the Station Terms of Service and/or the Game Rules of Conduct and/or (vi) upon any violation of the Exchange Agreement. If we terminate this Agreement or suspend your Account under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the duration of the suspension and/or the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this Agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the Game, in which case we may provide you with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts.

So, multiboxing if you control all 6 characters signally and you have to type a command for all 6 characters separately is ok. Multi-boxing with the use of hardware OR software which allows you to control 6 characters with 1 command is not ok and considered in violation of the spirit of the game as it gives the player(s) an advantage over other players."

So let's recap how it works:

  1. You must be at the computer.
  2. Your must actively send unique commands to each, individual character/client either via hardware (wireless keyboards for example) or software.

As I described it earlier, it seems like all one has to do is use Isboxer to send the individual commands to those they are grouping with to ensure they hit the hate list.  Thus, multi-boxers are fine.  Powerlevelers?  There are other ways to get on the hate list.  As an example, a warden just has to place their spores spell on the tank and let the tank run up to stuff to be smacked once before the tank attacks.  A very large number of classes have some sort of reactive buff or other means (like a ward) to get that hate.  Still, I'm personally not concerned with the loss of powerlevelers.  Too many who don't know how to play their class due to it.  Worse, those bringing their friends into the game, powerleveling them up, and then dumping them at cap.  Those players get frustrated and leave in short order more often than not.  Combine that with the decimation of entire zones during double XP which affects new players...  yeah, more than glad to see the change.

Deadcrickets2... Did you actually read Ulrichvon's post?I suggest you do. You tried to say he is wrong, only to turn around and post the same info he did, albeit in an epic wall of text.But grats on "ending the debate"?

He stated that broadcasting was against the EULA.  I responded as to why it is not.  Could you care to explain how I "post the same info he did"?

He said:"So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.""However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation."You said:"Your must actively send unique commands to each, individual character/client either via hardware (wireless keyboards for example) or software."Which, is the same thing.You are disagreeing with him about what, exactly? You're both saying that broadcasting a single action to make multiple characters perform a function, is against the EULA, but an individual command for an individual client is OK.

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Old 10-20-2012, 08:25 PM   #52
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[email protected] wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

Your tank is still going to kill things faster than whoever else is in the group can hit every mob, or perform some action to be hated by every mob.  Particularly when the tank fires an arrow to pull and 4 mobs fall down and die.  Then the zerker swings one melee round ae auto fires and 4 more mobs fall down and die.  If he's running ED proc, oh man, more mobs just fell down and died.

Ok, we're talking two totally different things.  You are talking powerleveling, I'm talking boxing.

As long as your boxing things that can't be one shot killed (heroics not quest mobs) then yes isBoxer could be used to perform actions to get on hate list. 

But you get into some tough grey area here.  ISBoxer in itself is not a EULA violation.  The PnP and tiling, and quick swapping between screens is all legal.  However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation.  So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.

However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation.  So long as each action is attributed to a specific keypress or click, and one keypress or click does not cause more than one action to be performed (outside of an ingame macro), everything is kosher.

This is getting off topic, and honestly if you even follow these descriptions you understand just how convaluded SoE has made their EULA interpretation.  Other games like WoW, LoTRo and many others have no issue with key forwarding to other sessions and you can freely use all features of ISBoxer.  However in EQ2 you can only use a small subset and not be in violation.

C Per the rules you have to be at the computer.  Isboxer allows you to box multiple clients on the same computer.  So you are within the rules fully.  I remember a discussion about something similar to this a few years back that SOE responded on.

Copy and paste from post in 2009 by Kiara:

"

INC OFFICIAL RESPONSE!!! 

End of debate   Thank you very much everyone

Our terms of service state: (http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...p?p_faqid=12248)

6. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our sole discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game; (v) upon any violation of the Station Terms of Service and/or the Game Rules of Conduct and/or (vi) upon any violation of the Exchange Agreement. If we terminate this Agreement or suspend your Account under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the duration of the suspension and/or the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this Agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the Game, in which case we may provide you with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts.

So, multiboxing if you control all 6 characters signally and you have to type a command for all 6 characters separately is ok. Multi-boxing with the use of hardware OR software which allows you to control 6 characters with 1 command is not ok and considered in violation of the spirit of the game as it gives the player(s) an advantage over other players."

So let's recap how it works:

  1. You must be at the computer.
  2. Your must actively send unique commands to each, individual character/client either via hardware (wireless keyboards for example) or software.

As I described it earlier, it seems like all one has to do is use Isboxer to send the individual commands to those they are grouping with to ensure they hit the hate list.  Thus, multi-boxers are fine.  Powerlevelers?  There are other ways to get on the hate list.  As an example, a warden just has to place their spores spell on the tank and let the tank run up to stuff to be smacked once before the tank attacks.  A very large number of classes have some sort of reactive buff or other means (like a ward) to get that hate.  Still, I'm personally not concerned with the loss of powerlevelers.  Too many who don't know how to play their class due to it.  Worse, those bringing their friends into the game, powerleveling them up, and then dumping them at cap.  Those players get frustrated and leave in short order more often than not.  Combine that with the decimation of entire zones during double XP which affects new players...  yeah, more than glad to see the change.

Deadcrickets2... Did you actually read Ulrichvon's post?I suggest you do. You tried to say he is wrong, only to turn around and post the same info he did, albeit in an epic wall of text.But grats on "ending the debate"?

He stated that broadcasting was against the EULA.  I responded as to why it is not.  Could you care to explain how I "post the same info he did"?

He said:"So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.""However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation."You said:"Your must actively send unique commands to each, individual character/client either via hardware (wireless keyboards for example) or software."Which, is the same thing.You are disagreeing with him about what, exactly? You're both saying that broadcasting a single action to make multiple characters perform a function, is against the EULA, but an individual command for an individual client is OK.

His comment:  "However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation."  

My response:  "Actually it's not against the EULA to broadcast the commands."

This is what I was arguing against and explained.  Questions?

// I think what is going on here is a confusion over what the word broadcast means and what specifically is being talked about.  The definition of broadcast is to transmit.  This can either be by unicasting or multicasting (networking terms).  So if you look at what I posted and what the other guy posted we both agreed and disagreed.  We disagreed as to whether broadcasting (general definition) is against the EULA (it's not) but agreed that unicasting was legal (it is) while multicasting is not (it's not).

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Old 10-20-2012, 08:57 PM   #53
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

Your tank is still going to kill things faster than whoever else is in the group can hit every mob, or perform some action to be hated by every mob.  Particularly when the tank fires an arrow to pull and 4 mobs fall down and die.  Then the zerker swings one melee round ae auto fires and 4 more mobs fall down and die.  If he's running ED proc, oh man, more mobs just fell down and died.

Ok, we're talking two totally different things.  You are talking powerleveling, I'm talking boxing.

As long as your boxing things that can't be one shot killed (heroics not quest mobs) then yes isBoxer could be used to perform actions to get on hate list. 

But you get into some tough grey area here.  ISBoxer in itself is not a EULA violation.  The PnP and tiling, and quick swapping between screens is all legal.  However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation.  So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.

However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation.  So long as each action is attributed to a specific keypress or click, and one keypress or click does not cause more than one action to be performed (outside of an ingame macro), everything is kosher.

This is getting off topic, and honestly if you even follow these descriptions you understand just how convaluded SoE has made their EULA interpretation.  Other games like WoW, LoTRo and many others have no issue with key forwarding to other sessions and you can freely use all features of ISBoxer.  However in EQ2 you can only use a small subset and not be in violation.

C Per the rules you have to be at the computer.  Isboxer allows you to box multiple clients on the same computer.  So you are within the rules fully.  I remember a discussion about something similar to this a few years back that SOE responded on.

Copy and paste from post in 2009 by Kiara:

"

INC OFFICIAL RESPONSE!!! 

End of debate   Thank you very much everyone

Our terms of service state: (http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...p?p_faqid=12248)

6. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our sole discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game; (v) upon any violation of the Station Terms of Service and/or the Game Rules of Conduct and/or (vi) upon any violation of the Exchange Agreement. If we terminate this Agreement or suspend your Account under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the duration of the suspension and/or the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this Agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the Game, in which case we may provide you with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts.

So, multiboxing if you control all 6 characters signally and you have to type a command for all 6 characters separately is ok. Multi-boxing with the use of hardware OR software which allows you to control 6 characters with 1 command is not ok and considered in violation of the spirit of the game as it gives the player(s) an advantage over other players."

So let's recap how it works:

  1. You must be at the computer.
  2. Your must actively send unique commands to each, individual character/client either via hardware (wireless keyboards for example) or software.

As I described it earlier, it seems like all one has to do is use Isboxer to send the individual commands to those they are grouping with to ensure they hit the hate list.  Thus, multi-boxers are fine.  Powerlevelers?  There are other ways to get on the hate list.  As an example, a warden just has to place their spores spell on the tank and let the tank run up to stuff to be smacked once before the tank attacks.  A very large number of classes have some sort of reactive buff or other means (like a ward) to get that hate.  Still, I'm personally not concerned with the loss of powerlevelers.  Too many who don't know how to play their class due to it.  Worse, those bringing their friends into the game, powerleveling them up, and then dumping them at cap.  Those players get frustrated and leave in short order more often than not.  Combine that with the decimation of entire zones during double XP which affects new players...  yeah, more than glad to see the change.

Deadcrickets2... Did you actually read Ulrichvon's post?I suggest you do. You tried to say he is wrong, only to turn around and post the same info he did, albeit in an epic wall of text.But grats on "ending the debate"?

He stated that broadcasting was against the EULA.  I responded as to why it is not.  Could you care to explain how I "post the same info he did"?

He said:"So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.""However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation."You said:"Your must actively send unique commands to each, individual character/client either via hardware (wireless keyboards for example) or software."Which, is the same thing.You are disagreeing with him about what, exactly? You're both saying that broadcasting a single action to make multiple characters perform a function, is against the EULA, but an individual command for an individual client is OK.

His comment:  "However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation."  

My response:  "Actually it's not against the EULA to broadcast the commands."

This is what I was arguing against and explained.  Questions?

// I think what is going on here is a confusion over what the word broadcast means and what specifically is being talked about.  The definition of broadcast is to transmit.  This can either be by unicasting or multicasting (networking terms).  So if you look at what I posted and what the other guy posted we both agreed and disagreed.  We disagreed as to whether broadcasting (general definition) is against the EULA (it's not) but agreed that unicasting was legal (it is) while multicasting is not (it's not).

Quoting UlrichvonBut you get into some tough grey area here.  ISBoxer in itself is not a EULA violation.  The PnP and tiling, and quick swapping between screens is all legal.  However using broadcasting with ISBoxer is a violation.  So making it that when you press '1' on your main session and it presses one on all others is a violation.  Making it so when you click on a specific location it clicks on all others, is a violation.However, configuring it so that when you hit a specific key combination it presses '1' on session 2 is not a violation.Ulrichvon made it clear that it is a EULA violation, to have a single user input make multiple EQ2-sessions perform an action.Ulrichvon made it clear that it is within the EULA, to have a single user input apply a command to a single EQ2 session.It seems you got stuck on the word "broadcasting". With such, you taken a small snippet of one paragraph, way out of context (by neglecting the comments made in the rest of his post). The reality is, you both said the same thing regarding what is against the EULA, and "broadcast" is still a word with multiple avenues of interpretation. So if your agenda is to argue semantics over the word "broadcasting", all power to you. The general nature of broadcasting involves sending a signal, capable of being received by all available recipients within range. But there is always exceptions. Ulrichvon clarified himself beyond doubt, so replying to his post in the manner you did, seems odd. If you two actually agree with each other, that is good!Regardless, use of third party programs is drifting off course. A full group of 6 decently geared lowbies, will cause a lot of mobs to die prior to everyone getting on the hate list. Low level content melts, unless you're undergeared and using apprentice grade abilities. The plan SOE has presented, will be detrimental to non-AE class types, and I do not see it being long before SOE changes it again.

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Old 10-20-2012, 10:33 PM   #54
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To bring back grouping of all levels...

1: Make available all dungeons, at all levels, with cross server Dungeon Finder grouping.

2: Fix mentoring. It is currently broken. You should not be as powerful as people become when mentoring. You aren't a god that 1 shots everything at lvl 92, you shouldn't be when you're mentored to 30.

3: Fix mentoring to allow for a challenge in all the zones still!!!

4: Scaling rewards. So even a 90-92 person can get a good rewards for their level!

Wow! Its amazing how something so simple could encourage grouping! The 1-89 folks and new players would have someone to actually group with! Instead of having to solo from 1-92 (which isn't fun for new players seeking an MMO to group and socialize!)

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Old 10-20-2012, 11:25 PM   #55
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ZUES wrote:

A simple solution would be the requirement to physically send in pets and mercs by means of the pet window.

As a conj/necro it concerns me quite a bit.

I don't always land a spell on a mob before it dies. By the time I've sent in the merc (tank) and then my pet (mage) and paused to allow them to keep agro before casting, many mobs are dead. Does this mean I get no AA or XP from the kills?

Very often there are adds too, which the merc dispatches before I realise they have added. Or they are out of sight and the merc and pet are in prtection mode and slaughter them while I deal to other mobs in the room.

Does the conj/necro get XP if the pet or merc makes the kill?

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Old 10-21-2012, 12:01 AM   #56
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retro_guy wrote:

ZUES wrote:

A simple solution would be the requirement to physically send in pets and mercs by means of the pet window.

As a conj/necro it cocerns me quite a bit.

I don;t always land a spell on a mob before it dies. Byt the time I'v sent in the merc (tank) and then my pet (mage) and paused to allow them to keep agro before casting, many mobs are dead. Does this mena I get no AA or XP from the kills?

Veru often there are ads too, which the merc dispatches before I realise they have added. Or they are out of sight and the merc and pet are in prtection mode and slaughter them while I deal to other mobs in the room.

Does the conj/necro get XP if the pet or merc makes the kill?

Yeah this concerns me as well. Not just where mercs and pets are concerned, but groups period. So if my AOE spells don't cast fast enough, I'll lose XP for all the mobs if groupmates' abilities get out faster? That hardly seems fair.Note I'm not saying if I'm too slow casting them... its about the casting speed of spells themselves. Some mages' AOE spells just cast that much slower than AOE abilities of fighters and scouts. I ran into that problem a lot while someone was helping me level: They'd pull a group, I'd cast a few spells, but there was no way I'd even come close to hitting the whole lot before they all poofed.While I can see why the change is made, this could potentially have some untintended and awful side-effects when this gets put into play.

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Old 10-21-2012, 12:07 AM   #57
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Mohee wrote:

To bring back grouping of all levels...

1: Make available all dungeons, at all levels, with cross server Dungeon Finder grouping.

2: Fix mentoring. It is currently broken. You should not be as powerful as people become when mentoring. You aren't a god that 1 shots everything at lvl 92, you shouldn't be when you're mentored to 30.

3: Fix mentoring to allow for a challenge in all the zones still!!!

4: Scaling rewards. So even a 90-92 person can get a good rewards for their level!

Wow! Its amazing how something so simple could encourage grouping! The 1-89 folks and new players would have someone to actually group with! Instead of having to solo from 1-92 (which isn't fun for new players seeking an MMO to group and socialize!)

Wouldn't a better option be, providing two forms of mentoring, and allowing players to choose?Option 1) Mentoring as it exists today.Option 2) Mentoring to simulate the stats of the mentored character, or an equivalent version of.That way, we don't lose options, we gain them. This is because different situations make different options more desirable. If I am playing with a friend who is new to the game, I don't want to be a "demi-god" when mentored down. If I am levelling a guildie's 10th alt, I want to be a demi-god...Adding options > Replacing options.

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Old 10-21-2012, 12:22 AM   #58
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I've run into problems like this already, without this change in: cases where someone I'm grouping with misses quest updates because I one-shotted the mob I was pulling too far away. It's worse when I'm mentoring down to someone, but even a level-appropriate character in quested gear can hit mobs hard enough to trigger the glitch. If this is implemented exactly as described, it'll play hob with normal grouping.

It could be tweaked to work, though. Simply make it so that if you're in combat range of the mob, or within say 25m of someone who is on the mob's hate list, when it dies you still get credit. That prevents the above problem while still making it so people can't park safely out of harm's way and soak up XP while the rest of the group kills. It still leaves openings, but it's just plain hard to distinguish a character that isn't doing anything from a character that didn't get a chance to do anything before the mob died.

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Old 10-21-2012, 05:46 AM   #59
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Closing this as the majority of recent posts are non-constructive trolling and personal attacks.

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