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Old 08-14-2008, 10:09 PM   #31
AdiX__Styxx__

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couldnt have said it better lodor
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:46 PM   #32
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You mention somethings I can change. I have given up lots of str for RC. Somewhere between 50-100str.So you say Str is much more important?Have noticed that when my str buffed is over 900 I do way better than when it's in it normal 750- 850 buffed Range. Self buffed str is 657 no potion.Havent been grouping much lately. Little burnt out on the game and raiding 2-3 times a week is about all I can handle so not much practising time or getting better equipment. That will increase though as weather cools. I always slack in the summer.As I explaned earlier, its hard for me to experiment because I'm always in a different group make up. One thing I have been trying out is saving all my big hitters for when Killing Instinct and focus r both up and running but I read somewhere that I should split them and not use them at the same time because of a cap. So am I better served hitting killing then focus then all the big MAs or focus Big MAs then killing big MAs repeat as avaible. Also not sure on this one, I noticed that I seemed to be doing better damage using Bodkins. I know the general idea is field points but many a fight I'm hitting 98.5% and up often a 100% with the fields. The last time I used the bodkin, the hit % wasn't all that lower and I seemed to be doing better damage over all. But that was awhile ago and it is impossible to check raid wide as I have stated. So whats your thoughts?The other 3 Assassins are in the 4.5k-4.8k range. Mind you I'm talking zone wide numbers not spikes. And as you probally know I tend to do much better on named mobs that we know how to kill. Still not near the top Assassin but sometimes the next dps on the parse if other Assassins arn't there. The other two Rangers rarely play any more and I easily out dps them but I have much better gear than them too. The one that played most recently was close to my gear and I usually beat him by around .5 k raid wide. But he hasn't showed since the arrow fix. just before or after. Forgot which.Thanx for your help guys I have no problem hearing ways to improve my character but if your spoken down too like a child I'm sure you see how it can make you defensive and unrecptive to advice. My whole argument was how much the Assassin was out dpsing us and the fact that they r doing it by such a wide margin. Some posters, once I got past my stuberness, made me see I can try some things to make it better but not wipe it out. Which is what I am complaing about that the dps difference is there at all. I can accept that your a better player than me. I can't accept the game not letting me play on an even field with my sister class.Adix, I came here to complain about what I percieved to be an unfair advantage Assassins have over Rangers. Some posters made me see that I had some misconceptions and I was maybe doing things wrong. Which in itself is a little hard to swallow at first.  I am still under the conclusion that we are less than Assassins and that is wrong but it probally isn't as much as I thought. No on has really answered me as far as this problem being greatly rectified by r Mythical bow. Is it possible that because I don't have my Mythical I am seeing a greater difference in dps than you guys?Then I read your first post to me. And though you may have not ment to do it, the way you worded things really got my back up. Instead of saying yes there is a dps difference but try doing this. You decided to jump on me for doing half the damage of our Assassin totaly disrearging that I said that was after I was put in the bad groups.You totaly came off as an elitest player coming down from his heavenly perch to chastise a mere human for not being as great as himself. Needless to say I found that very hard to swallow.
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:14 PM   #33
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sry if ya took it that way man didnt mean it like that at all as i explained earlier but yes after ya get yer mythical the disparity between the classes is smaller but is still there ZW the differences are a lot smaller tho also cause of the explanations i gave....yer right about the cap on killing and focus dont stack em best ya can do is spread em all out the only things ya can stack or slightly overlap is honed and focus but thats cause honed lasts so long so use focus use everything ya wanna use while its up then use honed when it runs out and b4 honed runs out focus should have popped back up i think twice or so use killing somewhere in between focus since honed is haste and killing is dps!I am in no means even close to an elitist btw im still improving every day and learning stuff myself every day again if ya want advice toss me a tell crushbone.styxxey if i aint raiding im willing to help!altough since ya dont have much practise time that might be a big reason for the big disparity too!
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:53 PM   #34
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When I say get your str up first, its more along the lines of me thinking about 800-850+, since that is normally a pretty big goal for the more casuel / lower tier raiding ranger. Yes not everyone can lots of time to run instances every day and try to farm the items that get them to the 800 - 900+ str marks that many full time raiders get pretty easy. What I tend to see is the "normal" type ranger running around with 600-700 str in there raids and have on gear that has 0 Str, and +2 rc. To me that is a mistake, when I used to try that my dps was always lower than when I would have 800-900 str and 50%crit over 650str and 58% crit, it was only realisticly probably in the 200-300 dps differance, but in the  big picture, thats alot of dps to lose, imo.

 All I can say is try it for yourself, I dont recall anyone telling me there dps didnt go up after doing so, most told me it helped.

Like Styx said tho, once you start getting up near the 850-900ish mark, I would lean more towards the +ranged crit while keeping my str near that number. RC is easier to achieve as well as affecting all your Ranged CAs so you get a better overall boost in dps than if you go more towards the double attack. If you can get the DA without sacrificing your Str goal and RC then hop all over it. In most raids with any type of decent group your Str should be around that 850+ number, so you should be all set (hopefully), its much easier once you start getting differant gear to swap in and out for those groups.

For arrows, I use the field points full time, maybe you can get away without the +to hit in the lower tier zones, but when you start shooting at those high orange mobs you most certainly want the +to hit from the field points. I dont switch from them ever simply because on extra miss from the bodkins can easily wipe out any +damage they might have had,since a miss can = up to 12k+, and to me thats just to much to chance.

You will notice a big differance in your auto attack timeing from self buffed haste, to 100%+ haste. below 100  you will more than likely get 3 CAs in between auto attacks, 100+ and you will be more near the 2 CAs depending on the casting speeds of which ones you use in what order. Try not to use your melee CAs when you have Focus Aim going, its just that much more time you could have had on a ranged CA.

Noone is addressing the mythical question becasue, yes its a upgrade and will get you closer, but the assassins mythical has a better damage rateing as well as a better damage proc, and is really a bigger  boost to them %wise than ours is to us. So they will pull a little further ahead after you both get them

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Old 08-15-2008, 12:54 AM   #35
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I just checked the broker sun. and when I checked now I bought 5 new items,4 of which wern't on there Sun. Thanx again guys and sorry for the misunderstanding. I just did a little shopping and managed to get my str up to 719 without the str potion while keeping my RC at 42%. Also another 27 str when str ring goes off. Also was able to add another 105 CA damage. Ranged double is a lame 14% but thats up 4 from what it was. I could get Str another 10 higher but it would cost me 2 RC thought that probly wasn't worth it. I should be around the 900 level str wise most raids if I get any buffs at all when I use the str potion.One more question, after the change in conservastion, is it worth dumping it and picking up perfectionist instead? I tried that build out a month or so ago but my dps went down but that was before the conservastion change.Bah one more even though I think I know the answer I just hate giving it up. I have the coiled steel shoulder gaurds with no str and +5 ranged crit. should I use the Incarnadine melodic mantle with 30 st and +45 CA damage over it? All the time,never or when my str is a little low in the raid? When i don't use it it drops my RC to 37%Just added another 30 str and 135 CA damge at the cost of 5 RC and 2 fabeled and one legendary peices of armour.Thanx again.
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Old 08-15-2008, 05:23 AM   #36
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Arm slot is a bit tricky for rangers since all the ones with good mods seemingly have 0 str on them.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:55 AM   #37
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look at it this way if ya can get a strenght item in there that gives ya 10 str per 1 rcrit then go for strenght as long as yer lower then 900 solo the 900 solo means that when yer raiding yer ussually like 1000 or so which means crits become more important if ya have a shoulder item that gives 50 strenght to compensate for the 5 crit then go for it if not i would stick to the coiled steel shoulders till ya get something better and the only things i can think of tbh that are better are avatar shoulders whihc not a lotta rangers have acces too or the ones that drop from dominus rile in rillis!i dont really understand the other question why would it matter how conservation changed to pick it over perfectionist arent they two seperate trees yer kinda confusing me with that so plz clarify what yer trying to ask plz, maybe its just me!
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:54 PM   #38
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Ok will try to clerify. Before conservation changed we were getting +16 RC from Tactics potion. Or so I've been told. Mine only said +8 when I used it but whatever. Now we r getting +4.8% RC from potion after change. I have all 70 used in Ranger AA trees. 60 AA in preditor trees. But if I respec both trees I can munipulate it so I can get perfectionist in the preditor tree along with everything I have now at the cost of losing conservation and 1 or 2 points in assorted non critical areas. So basically is it worth getting the 50% reuse timer reduction of shower of arrows and sniper shot along with 15% damge boost to those two MAs at the cost of losing the .8 critical boost and the other stuff conservation gives. potion triggers is not a giant deal for me as I have a alchey to make them.
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:56 PM   #39
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I only read the first couple of words. If you know you need to be in a certain range when casting coverage ... why aren't you in that range ? dont cry, when it's you who don't know how the CA works to be honest.
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Old 08-15-2008, 04:50 PM   #40
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blackdog1 wrote:
As I explaned earlier, its hard for me to experiment because I'm always in a different group make up. One thing I have been trying out is saving all my big hitters for when Killing Instinct and focus r both up and running but I read somewhere that I should split them and not use them at the same time because of a cap. So am I better served hitting killing then focus then all the big MAs or focus Big MAs then killing big MAs repeat as avaible. Also not sure on this one, I noticed that I seemed to be doing better damage using Bodkins. I know the general idea is field points but many a fight I'm hitting 98.5% and up often a 100% with the fields. The last time I used the bodkin, the hit % wasn't all that lower and I seemed to be doing better damage over all. But that was awhile ago and it is impossible to check raid wide as I have stated. So whats your thoughts?The other 3 Assassins are in the 4.5k-4.8k range. Mind you I'm talking zone wide numbers not spikes. And as you probally know I tend to do much better on named mobs that we know how to kill. Still not near the top Assassin but sometimes the next dps on the parse if other Assassins arn't there. The other two Rangers rarely play any more and I easily out dps them but I have much better gear than them too. The one that played most recently was close to my gear and I usually beat him by around .5 k raid wide. But he hasn't showed since the arrow fix. just before or after. Forgot which.My whole argument was how much the Assassin was out dpsing us and the fact that they r doing it by such a wide margin. Some posters, once I got past my stuberness, made me see I can try some things to make it better but not wipe it out. Which is what I am complaing about that the dps difference is there at all. I can accept that your a better player than me. I can't accept the game not letting me play on an even field with my sister class.
While I agree it is hard to experiment with raid groups that keep changing, you can determine what casting order and gear choices work best in general simply by killing "the wall" in KJ. This is a "fixed" target that will let you try different things to see what works best. While not everything will transfer to fighting all raid mobs, you can get a good idea what works and what doesn't. Instead of comparing yourself with the single best player in your guild (by your own admission) perhaps you should compare yourself with one of the other "regular" assassins. If you worked on your gear a little, refined your game play a little and got back into a "good group" you should come close to the 4.5K the "other" assassins are doing. And if you are doing "much better on the named mobs" and at worse #4 on the parse, you should not have a problem getting a spot in a raid. Yes the assassins will beat you on the parse vs the majority of the mobs, the "trash" mobs in a zone. That is the kind of fight an assassin does best on. However on a long 2+ min named fight where you must stay at range for at least part of it rangers do their best. We are not equal, we are similar. We both do very very good melee DPS. We just do it better vs different kinds of mobs. That is why we are BOTH needed in a raid. So don't worry about being outparsed by an assassin on the type of fight they are designed to work best on, short, up close and personal. Worry if you cannot outparse an assassin on the type of fight YOU are designed to work best on, a long RANGED fight.Good luck.
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Old 08-16-2008, 04:03 PM   #41
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Geez people with your wall of text posts. Need to accept its unbalanced atm with assassins. I see some top rangers post their 10k+ DPS parses with pride and they are still second to the assassin. Its going to happen. A lot.Raid buffs make a huge difference. They give you guff and not give you or some other ranger in the raid IA, you tell them NO ONE is going to get more pure damage out of IA than a ranger, player skill being equal of course. NO ONE. Any argument they give is wrong. Rangers will up the DPS more with IA than anyone else would with IA. then get yourself a bard and if they are worth their salt thay have 'don't kill the messanger' and 'fortissimo' up. Troubs can have these buffs but a dirge is preferred. These are basically minimums if you want to have a chance in having a decent raid parse.NO ONE DOES BETTER WITH IA THAN A RANGER.Also for the sake of the topic, coverage is horrible, I have master 1 of it and I can say is I would get more out of it if I just kept adept 3 and muted the [Removed for Content] thing. They really need to take that not near an enemy requirement out.
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Old 08-19-2008, 03:38 PM   #42
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There is too much text for me, i just read few last and first posts... I dont like to read SMILEYAnd... Imho - Ranger with same equipment and same group buffs cant do better DPS than Assassin... (Assasin has self buff +100 DPS mode... Rangers should have it too...)And 2 things that are stupid...Why ranger dont have his heroic oportunity ranged ?And why masters from Lore and Legends are not ranger also ?P.sAnd what is 'IA' ; D ?
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:10 PM   #43
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Hawkman14 wrote:
There is too much text for me, i just read few last and first posts... I dont like to read SMILEYAnd... Imho - Ranger with same equipment and same group buffs cant do better DPS than Assassin... (Assasin has self buff +100 DPS mode... Rangers should have it too...)And 2 things that are stupid...Why ranger dont have his heroic oportunity ranged ?And why masters from Lore and Legends are not ranger also ?P.sAnd what is 'IA' ; D ?
First of all Haste>DPS because haste makes you proc more. Proc rate is based on your delay before haste is applied. So with haste you have the same proc rate but attack more --> voila more procs! Notice every good class buffs haste and every evil class buffs DPS. Now notice that the haste buff is never equal to the DPS buff.Coercer 82 DPS vs Illy 70 HasteDirge 30 ?DPS vs Troub 2? hasteThis is because Haste is better all things being equal.IA = Illlusory Arm 25% Ranged/Mellee Double attack. I hate to point it out if you dont know what IA is then you are simply regurgitating what you have heard when you say Rangers cannot equal Assassins. You have no first hand experience. IA is the single utmost important buff a ranger can get.
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:04 PM   #44
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Wow, I'm gone for 5 days and this thread explodes with alot of new faces.  I don't really have time to comment on everything, but there are a few things I did want to say. 

First off, Blackdog.  The relative parses between my assassin's and myself did not change pre and post mythical.   The only time it was way different was after we beat Druushk and before we beat Phara Dar.  In otherwords when they had their mythicals and I didn't have mine.  But you can't expect anything there. 

Second.  I saw alot of talk without folks mentioning DPS and Haste very much Those two are both very important, and I'd agree haste is better than dps until you get too far into diminishing returns.  Fact of the matter is its all important.  STR, DPS, HASTE, Ranged Crit, Ranged Double Attack, Melee Crit, and procs.

Third.  And I'm not going to debate this one bit, I'm just going to say the only place I've ever seen the whole time your CA's around your autoattack is on the forums.  Everyone I've ever actually seen do great dps, just figures out a good casting order based on their gear and spells and play keep all the CA buttons greyed out.  Now that figuring out the casting order part is pretty important. 

 As to dropping conservation at 70AA in the ranger tree I have 5 ranks in everything that adds dps at all even the stream of arrows improvement, except the hawk and the trap.  The only things I don't have points in are the sprint the root and snare increasers the arrow summoning increaser and the trap and hawk.  I have three points in defensive stance (only because you have to to open the tree) and 4 points in escape.  I could see after the hawk got improved it might be ok to put points there but not at the cost of points  into used arrows.

And I would like to mention I got to meet Aeralik at Fan Faire and speak with him for a few minutes.  He's a really good guy actually. 

 Also Blackdog since your on AB hit me up in game sometime.

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Old 08-19-2008, 09:18 PM   #45
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Thanx Boramyr. Thanx to talking to the Rangers on these boards I was able to figure out what my dps problem was. It was largely because I wasn't playing enough. I basically for about 3 months logged on, raided and logged off. I had assumed my new legendary and fabled equipment was better than MC equipment. What a big mistake that was. I took the advice of Rangers here and dumped Range crit in favor of str until my str got over 900 in the raid. My RC is only 37(42 with the potion) and I could raise it by 5 at the cost of some str and +CA but it looks like almost a wash.I spent about 100 plat and bought a bunch of str and + CA stuff. I lost about 10- 12 RC but gained over 100 str and almost 300 + CA. I am still behind the Assassine but not by much.(Still hard to tell because of varying group make up) The last 2 raids I was number 2 on the pars list.Oh, also made macros on all my CAs to use ranged attack after CA instead of melee. So of course today, for the first time in months, I go out doing writs and I'm wondering for like 10 minutes why I'm doing like no damage when the mob is close to me. LOL.I am still annoyed about r dev constantly cutting us back but I am actually doing better than before the arrow change now and have no real problems where I am dps wise.So thanx to all that helped me.
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Old 08-23-2008, 03:03 PM   #46
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Let me start this off by stating that things were completely balanced in EoF in my opinion. Assassins have always done more CA dps than rangers, and rangers have always had to achieve some sort of "end all be all weapon" at the end of that expansion.Now, the main thing to keep in mind is balance in this expansion (and others) are not linear. And thats where the heart of the problem lies.Now considering how weapons are on a linear curve consistant with the damage rating. (the stickied post in the combat discussion shows this). We had 115 damage rating in EoF, our fabled epic is at 122, the highest raid bow is at 127ish. Melee weapons have gone from 85-90 to 100-105. Thus the scale between our fabled and assassin fabled is linear.Keep in mind that 2 weapons in 1 hand are 33% slowerLooking at the differences in CA's at this expansion, our birdie still does around 20 dps zonewide, assassins have a massive upgrade in there arsinol (fatal followup). This leaves the CA difference between rangers and assassins skewed in terms of CA's.The next thing to look at is itemization. Melee gets far more melee crit + double attack than a ranger gets ranged double attack/ranged crit. Where this in abundance is at the end of VP. Thus, someone jumping into raiding will be on the lower end on itemization compared to an assassin, and by the higher end things will become far more balanced.At the begining of this expansion everyone was givin 40 more aa's. As a ranger you could get additional (useful) Melee crit 8% crit to stealthed abilitys Conservation Solo AA's like +2.5s to root and additional snare As an assassin you could get additional (usefull) -35% to cast (poise) -Multi strike -8% to stealth -The ability to get the poison/bleeding/proc/and reuse lines.When looking at the aa's the choices in the pred tree are an assassins trump card. When dealing with single target mobs an assassin a general boost in dps wether it was single target or multi (depending on spec). This is where rangers are left behind in many area's. Remember, that poise and our cast times were tied back to when AA's first came out as well as a ranger "revamp" cast times were decided under 100 AA's.Here is where things get very dicy, and what eventually leaves us to being 'balanced'. Mythicals...Looking at the scale of our bows to begin with, 115 in EoF, 122 as our epic fabled, 154 with our mythical. Looking at the assassin scales in damage. 90/90 EoF, 100/100, 100/120 (remember in reality you will see) 60/60(120) 66/66(132) 66/80(146)This is a large jump between where you are in the expansion. This is also a large jump between classes in the ranger favor. Assassins get the ability to do 30% more to backstabs (or stealthed attacks I forget which at this moment). We get an additional 20% to auto attack making our damage rating 185. This is again compounded by the way spreads and crits work, eventually making our two classes at the late game.Wether the community agree's or disagree's with me, I think we are balanced in the top end. However before we get there its a huge struggle and an even bigger hump. If you enjoy your class and can get past the damage stick with ranger. If you want a very linear class and one that will always stay in line with the other melee dps pick assassin.
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:02 PM   #47
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As to dropping conservation at 70AA in the ranger tree I have 5 ranks in everything that adds dps at all even the stream of arrows improvement, except the hawk and the trap.  The only things I don't have points in are the sprint the root and snare increasers the arrow summoning increaser and the trap and hawk.  I have three points in defensive stance (only because you have to to open the tree) and 4 points in escape.  I could see after the hawk got improved it might be ok to put points there but not at the cost of points  into used arrows.Stream of arrows doesnt add dps its worthless i tested a lotta stuff with teh aa's and the best spec i came up with for both raiding and soloing is this:pred treestr: 4 4 4 8agi : 4 6 4 8 1int : 7 4 4 8 1+1 in bountyRanger treepoisoning : 5 caustic 5 fettering (gonna get fixed soonish) 5 ancillary 1 conservationtrapping : enhance snare 5 immobilizing lunge 5 roped shot 5focusing : 2 dance of the forest (yes only 2 can reach it from roped shot and save 1 extra AA) 5 in focus aim 5 in honed and killing and 1 in extensionmultishot : 5 searing shot 5 fittest 5 triple burst 5 shower of arrows 1 in double arrowReasoning : pred tree needs no explanation im assuming! the ranger tree ill explain based on your post about escape and used arrows if you have 5 in used arrows and 4 in escape ya are wasting 9 points add in the one point for yer defensive stance (which ive only used on maestro and ptasa rarely but stil) it really is wasting a total of 10 points which ya can use for either runspeed (pathfinding) or the snares for soloability (not that we need any more but its so much nicer) i dont have the 5 in pathfinding either cause i have my ranger as a 80 jeweler and got me the soltice earing that gives a buncha run speed and makes those AAs obsolete now for the summon arrows try using crafted field points on orange mobs and bodkins on white or lower mobs and see if yer dps increases! also drop the 5 in stream for something else cause stream is just a waste the AA does like 1500 ish on average damage per shot if ya use the whole CA ya lose Autoattacks so im assuming yer not doing that if ya only use 2 shots and then cancel it it means ya jsut did 3000 damage in which time ya could have meleed or used a dehate or something else.... anyways if ya like the setup experiment with it and try to do something with the advice and see if it works or not for yas!greetz styxxey
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:03 PM   #48
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As to dropping conservation at 70AA in theranger tree I have 5 ranks in everything that adds dps at all even thestream of arrows improvement, except the hawk and the trap.  The onlythings I don't have points in are the sprint the root and snareincreasers the arrow summoning increaser and the trap and hawk.  I havethree points in defensive stance (only because you have to to open thetree) and 4 points in escape.  I could see after the hawk got improvedit might be ok to put points there but not at the cost of points  intoused arrows.Stream of arrows doesnt add dps its worthless i tested a lotta stuff with teh aa's and the best spec i came up with for both raiding and soloing is this:pred treestr: 4 4 4 8agi : 4 6 4 8 1int : 7 4 4 8 1+1 in bountyRanger treepoisoning : 5 caustic 5 fettering (gonna get fixed soonish) 5 ancillary 1 conservationtrapping : enhance snare 5 immobilizing lunge 5 roped shot 5focusing : 2 dance of the forest (yes only 2 can reach it from roped shot and save 1 extra AA) 5 in focus aim 5 in honed and killing and 1 in extensionmultishot : 5 searing shot 5 fittest 5 triple burst 5 shower of arrows 1 in double arrowReasoning : pred tree needs no explanation im assuming! the ranger tree ill explain based on your post about escape and used arrows if you have 5 in used arrows and 4 in escape ya are wasting 9 points add in the one point for yer defensive stance (which ive only used on maestro and ptasa rarely but stil) it really is wasting a total of 10 points which ya can use for either runspeed (pathfinding) or the snares for soloability (not that we need any more but its so much nicer) i dont have the 5 in pathfinding either cause i have my ranger as a 80 jeweler and got me the soltice earing that gives a buncha run speed and makes those AAs obsolete now for the summon arrows try using crafted field points on orange mobs and bodkins on white or lower mobs and see if yer dps increases! also drop the 5 in stream for something else cause stream is just a waste the AA does like 1500 ish on average damage per shot if ya use the whole CA ya lose Autoattacks so im assuming yer not doing that if ya only use 2 shots and then cancel it it means ya jsut did 3000 damage in which time ya could have meleed or used a dehate or something else.... anyways if ya like the setup experiment with it and try to do something with the advice and see if it works or not for yas!greetz styxxeyPS : sry ma typing was black on black in previous post couldnt see i thaha
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Old 08-25-2008, 09:06 AM   #49
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So your Adix your post was really hard to read but you quoted me at the top, so I guess I should answer.  The original question was about weither or not Convservation was worth keeping after the correction to crit/da potions.  I think we both seem to agree on that. 

The other points you seem to be arguing are more of a playstyle thing.  Snares do little to nothing in Raiding and I can kill most solo mobs in about 1 to 2 seconds so the Snares and Roots beyond fettering poison do almost nothing for me.  However there are raid fights when I'm jousted out and have to be for a while, When I've cast every ranged CA I can and have nothing left to cast for 10 or 20 seconds even my deaggros and at which point throwing in 3 hits from Stream Shot is worth it because its something not nothing.  Especially if I pair it up with the clicky effect from my Werewolf hat from Shard of Hate.  No Stream is not very usefull and I go alot of fights without hitting it.  But 99% of what I fight personally can't be rooted or snared. 

Now when I was leveling up in Kunark solo.  I respeced out of most of the Damage AA's in the Ranger tree and had all the roots/snares and even charm animal specc'd. 

Best part about AA's they let you tweak your character to your own playstyle and very seldom is there one 100% right for everyone spec. 

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Old 08-25-2008, 07:21 PM   #50
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yea if yer a pure raider then snares will be useless but have ya ever tried killing heroic mobs? with those extra AAs in snares it makes it so much easier! its still possible without but a lil rougher! I never thought about the hat // stream combo i gotta look into that that might actually make the AAs in there worth it dont have the hat yet tho but trying! if i am jousting tho i hardly ever run outta stuff to use while ignoring stream of arrows so thats not really an arguement for me but yea the hat thing wow i really am looking forward looting that now!the ideas i posted up there will still save ya a point in yer defensive stance cause ya only need 17 to get the last ability and ya can still get it from roped shot AAs which is kinda a must have for a raiding ranger too! read ya had 4 in evac now ya can put 5 in there or wherever else ya want it in....For me yea i dont use the snares a lot on raids but when we are facing avatars i rather put up a snare poison so if i do shoot arrows at adds and i do pull agroe it ill take so much longer for the mob to get to me and ussually dead b4 it gets near aswell... but yea in the end it all depends on playstyle and preferences and its all about good fun!thx for replyinggreetz tha styxxey
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Old 08-26-2008, 01:37 AM   #51
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blackdog1 wrote:
See any Assassins posting here how they betrayed to Ranger? Almost every board has complants about something on them. Not the Assassins.
I don't really count because I'm only level 40, but I just betrayed my ratonga assassin to ranger because it's more fun to play. I did have a 73 assassin I deleted because of extremely low AAs and I just wanted to level up a predator again. I really do hope I can hang with assassins when all is said and done, but I've gotten to the point now where melee classes just don't interest me unless I'm tanking. I really like playing a ranger. It's the funnest class I've found to play besides guardian tanking, and coercer soloing.
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Old 08-26-2008, 03:45 PM   #52
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OK. I have been away from this thread for a bit and just read the replies. I love how this stuff sitrs up all us rangers. hehehe. but that is good, it shows we care about our class and are not just clicking buttons.

As to one of the original responses, I have upgraded a few more pieces, I have added the ranged auto attack to all my melee CAs (which it gets stuck sometimes and then the tank sees an arrow fly by him while he is attempting to body pull, ooopss. hehehe), and did my DPS go up? Yes. so those were helpful SMILEY

I have gotten a decent casting order down, plan on a bit more tweaking, since one of the best rangers on our server (or was at 70) came back from his summer off and actually joined our guild. So he and I will be working on some things to help stabilize my DPS ( I seem to parse erractically between 3k and 5k ). I have had lots of practice both in raids and on the training wall in KJ to up my parse. So I am making every effort to make the best of my class. The same problems from my original post still exist. Conservation is SOO situational, and I still can't catch a equally equipped assassin.

I did hear something that did ease my mind a little, and I mean a little. I talked to a few Rangers in the hard core raid guilds (like 6 nights a week hard core) and they all tell me that when I get my Mythical I should see a HUGE jump in my DPS. At that point I will be able to keep up with (not catch, but at least not get doubled) an Assassin with his Mythical. But alas my last update comes off the last mobs in VP, so I will get it right before we take on trax. uggg. would be nice to be getting it before then, but ehh.

The jist of my gripe originally was Assassins deal so much more damage then we do, and at least the assassins offer Hate Transfer so they are usually more desirable for raids.

Here are the group set-ups the Assassin and I usually run in.

Assassin's Group

Guard (MT)TemplarMysticDirgeCoercerAssassin (Not sure exactly what buffs he is getting)

My Group

Inquisitor (If Inq unavailable I usually get a Warden)IllusionistDirgeAssassinMonk/Bruiser (depending who is there)Ranger (I get Illy Arms & Rapidity from illy and Tenacity from Inquisitor)

Those are the typical set-ups he and I run with.

So I dont believe I am lacking any buffs that would necessarily drop my DPS. If my group's set-up is way off, please tell me. Our Raid leader is always willing to try new things.

I guess I wish our dev would just take a little time and toy with some changes. I thought the reduction of reuse time on our ranged CAs was something logical to try.

Heck they do what ever they want in dev or on their test toons, so why not have some dev that KNOWS the ranger class and our dev that KNOWS the assassin class both in the dead-eye set armor, both having their epics, give them 72 MC jewelry, all adept 3 CAs, No adornments, or potions, give them the same weapons (something with no ranged or melee DA, and no ranged or melee crit), and have them go nuts. See how both parse then. That puts both classes on equal footing. Then remove the AA end of line for STR restriction for CAs over 2 min and try again. I am not screaming make us parse higher than assassins because they get hate transfer, I am just saying get us a bit closer.

Look many times people complain about their class and say we are broken, fix us, but never offer up any viable solutions. Its like saying I am starving, feed me. Then when asked what you want, saying I dont know.

I am saying we need a little help and am offering up a viable suggestion of things the devs can try out and see how it works. What harm will come if our dev tried this and found it to WAY over power the ranger, and just post we tried this and it didnt work. Then we would shut up.

I think the devs would pay more attention to what we post as problems if more people offered up suggestions, and realistic ones. Nothing will ever change if we don't stop screaming with no offer on fixes. This thread has been a good one. I know some things that were posted helped some folks out. So for that I am glad.

We are all here to help each other so keep up the good work.

Hope I don't sound too angry SMILEY

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Old 08-26-2008, 05:27 PM   #53
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Your groups look pretty good but if your getting a warden that does nothing for you and would be hurting you over the Inquisitor. 

Really you are getting much better buffs than those assassins.  As for inconsitant spiking how fast is your tank pulling.  Ranger CA's are on a full cycle of about a minute and a half.  If your tank pulls three 30 second fights in that period you are going to rock one of them and be mediocre for two of them.    One thing I'd look at is see what your haste is sitting out without Temp buffs from you and your Dirge.  If you are up over 125 or so then you might look at removing a haste item for more double attack or a dps mod since you will be well into dimenishing returns if not over the cap with those temp buffs. 

 Last VP raid I was on I was usually second or third on 99% of all the individual fight parses but come zonewide I was 500 over everyone else in my raid  including two very good assassins.   I can't stress enough you can't look at a bunch of trash mob fights you have to look at a zonewide with named to see a ranger shine.  Also you can't really put two classes that play as differently and need gear and buffs as differently as rangers and assassins on equal comparative footing.  I realize there is a tenuous thread of one AA line and a couple of abilities that were a holdover of a bygone age tying us together but the classes really are NOTHING alike in how they play/ convert buffs/ or gear up. 

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Old 08-27-2008, 08:28 AM   #54
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I hear ya on the differences in the classes.  I guess its just hard to figure out 1. how our "counterpart" can throw out that much more damage (even though you snatched the zonewide in VP, gratz by the way) or at least till you hit the end raid zones for gear and Ranger gets their Myth, and 2. how almost every piece of gear for scouts in RoK seems to have melee crit and melee double attack, but ranged crit and ranged double attack is soo hard to come by.  That is like a double whammy.  I think Rangers would be much cloer to assassins if they had gear available to them the assassin has.I guess if I had hope for some changes, they would be....
  1. Take some of the MANY items that have melee crit on them and add an equal amt of ranged crit.
  2. Take some of the MANY items that have melee DA and add an equal amt of ranged DA to them.
  3. Take the distance restriction off of conservation.
  4. Remove the end of line STR "CAs on over 2 min timmers" restriction or bump it down to 1 min.  The only probelm with that one is it would cut down the timmers on assassins too, so maybe add it to the ranger tree.  Or add one similar to Ranged CAs on the Ranger tree.
  5. How about a few more decent 1 handers with ranged crit or ranged DA, and not just melee DA and melee crit.
Changes like that should not over power us.  Again I wish our dev would take a minute and listen to the people playing the class, because he doesnt play a ranger, so he doesnt feel our pain.  From what I understand he plays an assassin so he feels all is good in the predator world.
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:11 AM   #55
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I have said this for two years now. The damages between our two classes are similar, however our cast times are not. Thats the base of our problems right there. I have done my math and charts between rangers and assassins, and it astounds me some of the decisions that are made. You are right on the money on some of the problems with itemization sniper. Also keep in mind, there are still many many melee only effects off items, procs (agitate/wizzy/warlock procs for example), and AA's (there are still AA's that are useless to us due to having melee only tagged - multi strike, our debuff forinstance). One last thing though, and I think this should apply to all classes. Auto attack should go through CA's without having to worry about timing. Alot of classes are far more hindered by having to time alot more.
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Old 08-27-2008, 12:56 PM   #56
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[email protected] wrote:One last thing though, and I think this should apply to all classes. Auto attack should go through CA's without having to worry about timing. Alot of classes are far more hindered by having to time alot more.

Nobody has to Time Anything.   One of the biggest common themes amongst rangers that complain about dps is this thinking that they have to time their CA's around their Autoattack.  This DOES NOT WORK.  Nobody I know of that can pull real numbers that I've seen does this of any class. 

 I've said this in a couple other threads but I'll say it again.  You do need to be smart and not stack too many long casting time CA's together but most of our CA's after the Agility AA cast at .3 seconds and if your grouped with a troub it'll be .25 seconds.    Between Every CA there is a .5 second cooldown time. (there are things that will reduce this time but they aren't readily available to rangers).  Autoattacks go off during the cooldown time.  Rangers don't do 50% or more of our damage from Autoattack.  Autoattack should be 30-35% premythical and about 40% post mythical.  Procs account for another 25 to 35% leaving CA's weighted almost the same as Autoattack when you aslo factor in that CA's are causing some of those procs too.  If your doing 50%+ of your damage from autoattack you aren't using enough CA's probably because you are letting 1 to 2 seconds go by every Autoattack delay waiting on your ACT to register the autattack (which can have up to a 1 second delay sometimes depending on how bogged down your computer is) and then waiting on your own reaction time to hear the ding and then click a CA.  (which again is probably no less that .5 seconds if not more than 1 full second). 

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Old 08-27-2008, 01:06 PM   #57
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You may be right, my own opinion of that wains every day. However, after talking to some others - namely monks. You see about double the dps difference with timing auto attacks, which has gotten me to question my own judgements. Its a sticky subject as a whole imho.
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Old 08-27-2008, 01:49 PM   #58
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Monks Average CA Casting time is 1 second and their weapon delays are 2.5 seconds before haste. So its a much different game.  Check out my alts on EQ2 player.  My number one alt is a Monk. 
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Old 08-28-2008, 03:01 PM   #59
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Boramyr wrote:Nobody has to Time Anything. One of the biggest common themes amongst rangers that complain about dps is this thinking that they have to time their CA's around their Autoattack. This DOES NOT WORK. Nobody I know of that can pull real numbers that I've seen does this of any class.

Well the “best” zone wide parse that I have seen posted by a ranger is 7750 and he did it with 52% of his damage coming from autoattack.  

Boramyr wrote:I've said this in a couple other threads but I'll say it again. You do need to be smart and not stack too many long casting time CA's together but most of our CA's after the Agility AA cast at .3 seconds and if your grouped with a troub it'll be .25 seconds.

We have a total of 7 “melee” CAs, all of which have a basic casting time of 0.5 sec which is reduced to 0.37 sec with our Poise AA. We have a total of 11 “ranged” CAs. The casting time on these varies between 1 sec and 5 sec which is reduced to 0.74 sec to 3.7 sec. Not sure where you get the idea that “most of our CAs cast at .3 sec.“

Boramyr wrote:Between Every CA there is a .5 second cooldown time. (there are things that will reduce this time but they aren't readily available to rangers).  Autoattacks go off during the cooldown time.  Rangers don't do 50% or more of our damage from Autoattack. 

Well some do. There are over 15 parses posted in a thread on EQ2.flames that all parsed over 5500 zone wide and have Auto Attack percentages of 50+%

Maximizing your damage per second is very simple. If the fight is short, short enough that you cannot cast every single one of your CAs before the fight is over, then your casting order should be the CAs that do the most damage per cast time. If the fight is long, long enough that you have to wait for one of your CAs to recycle after you have cast every single one of them, then your cast order should be the CAs that do the most damage per recycle time. Now the problem with this is that it assumes that nothing changes from the start of the fight to the end of the fight. With 23 other people affecting the fight this is NEVER true. So in order to hit the absolute best DPS you will need to adjust the order of your CAs to take advantage of these changing conditions.

As for timing auto attacks, think of your auto attack as a CA. It has a cast time of 0 and has a reuse time of x seconds (x varies depending on your bow's delay and your haste, mine is usually 4.2). Now compare your auto attack damage rate with ANY other CA. For me at least it beats them ALL hands down. So you had better be using this "CA" ALL of the time or you will be reducing your damage. That is why you should time your CAs around your auto attacks, because your auto attack is your single best source of damage in EVERY situation. If you neglect it, you are hurting your overall damage rate.

Another thing that few rangers have mentioned is that proper use of Focus Aim will do more to increase your DPS than any other single thing. Starting with Focus Aim, followed by Ranged Auto Attack, then ALL of your Ranged CAs will result in more damage in those 15 sec than in any other 15 sec of the fight. So if you know that the fight will last 30 to 60 seconds, then delaying this sequence until the mob is fully debuffed (dispatch in, etc) will maximize your overall dps even further. Absolute maximum DPS is all about timing; timing your CAs with your auto attacks, timing your temp buffs with your CAs and timing your best DPS sequence with the rest of the raid. That is why this is such a hard class to master and why you will see DPS numbers for level 80 Rangers vary from 1500 or less to 7500 or more.

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Old 09-01-2008, 04:09 AM   #60
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If you like button clicking, then play some chanter lol. Ranger DPS comes from meticulous timing like i said on the other thread about timing with ACT.

My avg autoattack is like 10-11k usually. My ranged DA with bard/illu is around 90-100%. That makes around 20k dmg every 4seconds (usually capped on haste). So, the autoattack DPS is 5k. Delay some autoattack by like 0,5 seconds and I lose 2500 dmg. Thats 40 DPS in a 60 second fight. And we dont have so much combat arts that we need to spam them because we would have multiple of them up all the time otherwise. Like Danean said, timing your focus aim + all your ranged combat arts into dispatched is essential when doing max DPS. And even then, timing your autoattack is the most important point.

Back to the main topic:

Yes, Coverage is a pain to use sometimes... BUT it actually IS a DPS boost, even if you use your mythical and leave the <5m spot. I really would like to see the range requirement removed. Then it would be at least useable but still not be as powerful as fatal followup (to refer to our counterpart) which is 10-15k every min easily. Another nice thing would be to remove the toggle from focus aim so the recast begins right after the cast and not after it expires. That would also fit better with the recast of our ranged CAs.

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