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Old 06-27-2007, 11:30 AM   #31
Ranja

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AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:

Never ever use raincaller or any other item especially if ya got a chanter in raid!

Here is why the raincaller procs a stun and this make the epic iummune for 15 secs we all know this but why is it so important to not use it then a stun means less damage doenst it ? yea while this is true a timed stun which a good coercer will cast when needed (when tank is at 3% or so ) will help the raid a lot more then a random stun cause a timed stun gives yer healers time to catchup on healing eventho it only lasts for like 6 secs thats at least 3 healing spells from a defiler 4 or 5 from a warden 3 or 4 from a mystic etc etc.....

Understand the point im trying to make? raincaller is for solo // group use only not for raiding at all! heck i dont even use it for solo // group unless i have a really really weak tank but thats another story!

 Just be kind to yer chanters and other stunners stiflers etc.....

Ne4ver, ever ever huh?! I agree with Gaeron. Most of the fights done need enchanters. Trash is just urned through and the stun does not hurt a thing. On the fights where you need to mez jsut switch to Grizz. RC is the best bow out there that is easy to get (same as Torn.) If you are using Grizz you are killing your DPS in raids. It is not good to speak in absolutes. There are always situational exceptionsSMILEY
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:16 PM   #32
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I have found only a few fights where RC causes a problem, both in MMIS.  It's also not a good idea to start shooting too soon on the pull, since tanks dont like loosing aggro to the ranger or having the epic mob stunned when they are trying to position it.  Most trash mobs it really doesnt matter, though.

An alternative is the Ghostly Bow of Bylze. Lower damage rating but a very good damage spread. It crits for very high numbers.  It is a quest reward from fairly early in the claymore timeline. I regret selling it before I realized how important a wide damage spread was, and it has a max damage to min damage ration of 9!!

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Old 06-27-2007, 04:22 PM   #33
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Are we sure that the SoD rewards does not proc of ranged? I mean if they made it so that the Claymore rewards proc of ranged to make it useful for all classes, then should it not be the case with SoD too? If it does proc of ranged it's not that bad. I think it should have been a power proc instead of a heal proc however.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:16 PM   #34
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Prandtl wrote:

An alternative is the Ghostly Bow of Bylze. Lower damage rating but a very good damage spread. It crits for very high numbers.  It is a quest reward from fairly early in the claymore timeline. I regret selling it before I realized how important a wide damage spread was, and it has a max damage to min damage ration of 9!!

I'm using that bow now (sadly).  9 second delay, 65-585, I'm getting crits up to around 7500.  Auto-attack dps of 750 zone wide (that's dps for the bow only).  I need to swap back in RC or Torn Ligament and figure out which is better.  I'm not sure why The Ghostly Bow of Bylze isn't mentioned more often.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:02 AM   #35
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i speak in absolutes cause the chanter needs to his job too that HQ bow just isnt the dps yer looking for unless well ya dont have anything better then i digress but still would drop my dps a notch so i dont mess up pulls or chanter timers (immunities) its teamwork that counts not just your dps! Even tho since yer a ranger its the only thing ya bring to a raid but having a MT die cuase the chanter stun wasnt going of cause of an immunity is a bad thing the stormcaller is in my eyes for soloing purposes and grouping only ----> definately NOT raiding!!!

Think a lil bit about it!

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Old 06-28-2007, 12:43 PM   #36
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Question of the day.. If you get a prismatic 4 bow - will you upgrade it on raids? Would you upgrade a melee that helps ranged? I was glad I dident get a bow in eq1 epics because even to the end the 41% haste trumped everything and it wasent till 4-5 expansions later + new epics that the old epic became useless. In EQ2 they have made some things harder and easier and somethings that shouldent have been there to begin with.. The kilij should really be a DW with a proc - its unfair to assassins that we get a massive proc to our weapons and there arent even any raid weapons that proc that much. So the lesson learned - No more useless DW's to claymore, and let us know when things proc off ranged please.
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:03 PM   #37
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AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:

having a MT die cuase the chanter stun wasnt going of cause of an immunity is a bad thing the stormcaller is in my eyes for soloing purposes and grouping only ----> definately NOT raiding!!!

Think a lil bit about it!

We've been raiding T7 zones 3-4 times a week since the release of KoS and this has never happend to us.  Not once.  But hey, to each his own.   And, it's Rain Caller, although Storm Caller is a much cooler name.SMILEY

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Old 06-29-2007, 09:13 AM   #38
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[email protected] wrote:
Question of the day.. If you get a prismatic 4 bow - will you upgrade it on raids? Would you upgrade a melee that helps ranged?

I would upgrade anything that helped my DPS.

While folks have made many valid points on this thread about bows in general, my original point remains:

The bow is our primary weapon. Every single class gets a weapon upgrade from these quests, with rangers being the only exception. And not just one of these quests. Every single prismatic questline ignores rangers. While melee weapons that proc off of bows are nice, they are still just a substitute for the missing reward (and given these procs have been nerfed in the past, a very dubious and possibly temporary substitute at that.)

This would not force rangers to only choose the bow--there's still the dual wield/1hander option if that's the better setup for you. This would simply allow us the option of upgrading our primary weapon, our most, MOST important piece of gear, by doing the largest questlines of the expansion/original game. I cannot see a single reason, not one, as to why this would somehow be impractical or taboo. Having to make new models? Heaven forbid that, along with making new models for every single other reward option in these quests, they also remember to make a bow model. Difficulty of making unique bow models? I'm sorry, I've seen other games, it is not impossible to have more than three models of a bow throughout the entirety of a game. It's not any more challenging to come up with a unique bow look than it is to come up with another variation of a sword or staff. These are THE quests of the game. Every class deserves to be rewarded for the amount of work that must be put in to complete them.

To my fellow rangers that are lucky enough to own bows of significantly higher quality than rain caller: I am very glad that the top end of our class is able to do our primary job so well, given the rocky road we had last year. But I would remind you of what it was like before you obtained those bows, what it was like to camp Deathtoll and HoS for months and months and months and NEVER see a drop. Do those of us who have yet to obtain these bows have more options now? Yes, we do, thankfully, but it still not easy outside of a hardcore raiding guild able to take Mistmoore/EH/Matron. A number of us are still back in KoS, fighting the bloody random number generator on Venekor and Tarinax, while berzerkers, swashies, summoners, assassins, wizards, and sometimes even monks routinely trounce us on the parse because what is required for their DPS upgrades can be found in far greater abundance, and generally from easier encounters, and, of course, from these same prismatic quests that I'm currently complaining about. I would appreciate another route, requiring just as much work, but not so much reliance on the whim of the random number generator, to upgrade the item necessary to fullfill my singular class role--as every other class has the option of doing.

In the context of this issue, it does not matter whether the whole of ranger-dom is first or dead last on the parse, or whether bows drop like rain or are never ever seen--what matters is that every class has a reward tailored for them with these quests, the quests that are meant to be the defining questlines of their respective expansions, which require a great deal of effort and time to complete, with the sole exception of rangers, and that this has continued for the whole of the original game and three expansions, and has never once been addressed.

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Old 06-29-2007, 10:58 AM   #39
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kartikeya wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Question of the day.. If you get a prismatic 4 bow - will you upgrade it on raids? Would you upgrade a melee that helps ranged?

I would upgrade anything that helped my DPS.

While folks have made many valid points on this thread about bows in general, my original point remains:

The bow is our primary weapon. Every single class gets a weapon upgrade from these quests, with rangers being the only exception. And not just one of these quests. Every single prismatic questline ignores rangers. While melee weapons that proc off of bows are nice, they are still just a substitute for the missing reward (and given these procs have been nerfed in the past, a very dubious and possibly temporary substitute at that.)

This would not force rangers to only choose the bow--there's still the dual wield/1hander option if that's the better setup for you. This would simply allow us the option of upgrading our primary weapon, our most, MOST important piece of gear, by doing the largest questlines of the expansion/original game. I cannot see a single reason, not one, as to why this would somehow be impractical or taboo. Having to make new models? Heaven forbid that, along with making new models for every single other reward option in these quests, they also remember to make a bow model. Difficulty of making unique bow models? I'm sorry, I've seen other games, it is not impossible to have more than three models of a bow throughout the entirety of a game. It's not any more challenging to come up with a unique bow look than it is to come up with another variation of a sword or staff. These are THE quests of the game. Every class deserves to be rewarded for the amount of work that must be put in to complete them.

To my fellow rangers that are lucky enough to own bows of significantly higher quality than rain caller: I am very glad that the top end of our class is able to do our primary job so well, given the rocky road we had last year. But I would remind you of what it was like before you obtained those bows, what it was like to camp Deathtoll and HoS for months and months and months and NEVER see a drop. Do those of us who have yet to obtain these bows have more options now? Yes, we do, thankfully, but it still not easy outside of a hardcore raiding guild able to take Mistmoore/EH/Matron. A number of us are still back in KoS, fighting the bloody random number generator on Venekor and Tarinax, while berzerkers, swashies, summoners, assassins, wizards, and sometimes even monks routinely trounce us on the parse because what is required for their DPS upgrades can be found in far greater abundance, and generally from easier encounters, and, of course, from these same prismatic quests that I'm currently complaining about. I would appreciate another route, requiring just as much work, but not so much reliance on the whim of the random number generator, to upgrade the item necessary to fullfill my singular class role--as every other class has the option of doing.

In the context of this issue, it does not matter whether the whole of ranger-dom is first or dead last on the parse, or whether bows drop like rain or are never ever seen--what matters is that every class has a reward tailored for them with these quests, the quests that are meant to be the defining questlines of their respective expansions, which require a great deal of effort and time to complete, with the sole exception of rangers, and that this has continued for the whole of the original game and three expansions, and has never once been addressed.

not every class gets an upgrade , grizzfazzles is better than the staff if u have a good symbol and u have to complete a raid zone to get this weapon anway , where bows will prolly drop
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Old 06-29-2007, 11:23 AM   #40
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Based on my experiences...  Raid Deathtoll for 6 months, OMG Ichorstrand drops.  Follow that up with almost a year of whacking on Venekor and finally get the Ancient Sarnak.  Yeah drop rates suck real bad.
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Old 06-29-2007, 11:26 AM   #41
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FiveFootStep wrote:
TerriBlades wrote: You dont know the half of it... if you want something, you can send a merit or a bit tell for it, if everyone sends merit, its given to whoever the officers think it will help the most, if a bid tell is recieved, then it goes off of you bidding power, but you can only bid if you are within 15% 60 day attendance of the other ppl sending bid tells... Your bidding power is your attendance over the last 60 days divided by the square root of (Loot hits over last 60 days + 1). Attendance is taken at start of raids, every subsequent hour, and at close of raids... So yeah... complex doesnt begin to describe it...
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:15 PM   #42
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Where can I get the Ghostly Bow of Bylze? Oh, and the GU 36 description says:
The snare effect from the Star Darkened Longbow has been replaced with something a bit more appropriate for raiders.
What is the new effect?
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Old 06-29-2007, 04:45 PM   #43
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Deterrent wrote:
Where can I get the Ghostly Bow of Bylze? Oh, and the GU 36 description says:
The snare effect from the Star Darkened Longbow has been replaced with something a bit more appropriate for raiders.
What is the new effect?

I saw an assassin with this bow yesterday. If I remember right, the new effect is a chance to proc a buff that ups your ranged crit chance or sommat like that.

And while Grizzfazzles may be better than the current reward for SoD for wizards (I'm aware of this debate, as I mentioned earlier), it doesn't change the fact that wizards DO get a reward. And they get a reward for every prismatic quest prior that is meant for them. Whether it is an upgrade to current staff items or not is not the debate here (though again, I sympathize with your current situation, it SHOULD be better than grizzlfazzles), the same as whether or not the theoretical bow reward would be an upgrade to current high end bow drops is, while an issue itself, not the question.  It's the fact that the bow reward doesn't exist at all, and never has for any of these quests.

And again, every single drop in the new raid zone could be a bow, and it would NOT change the fact that these quests need a bow reward (for the record, I doubt any bow will drop in that zone at all, though it would be nice. Take a look at the bows available right now for T7 rangers from raid zones. They aren't exactly prolific.)

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Old 06-29-2007, 05:08 PM   #44
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Deterrent wrote:
Where can I get the Ghostly Bow of Bylze? Oh, and the GU 36 description says:
The snare effect from the Star Darkened Longbow has been replaced with something a bit more appropriate for raiders.
What is the new effect?

Ghostly bow of Bylze is a quest reward from Soul Survivor, 5th quest of the Claymore timeline

http://www.eq2i.com/articles/Soul_Survivor

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Old 07-11-2007, 08:41 PM   #45
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And it would seem the tiny bones we did have when it came to the prismatic quests (read: Kilij actually proccing on ranged), are being taken away. Thus, I'm bumping this thread again with a renewed sense of irritation.

As it stands, I am to the Mistmoore Castle part of SoD, and thankfully only to the last quest in Sanctum for Claymore. A friend of mine, through a ton of obsessive work, has recently managed to get up to the very last stage of Claymore (he only needs to kill Fitzpitzle and Tarinax), and I was inspired by his efforts to start working on it again myself--I'm selfishly glad I haven't yet started on this, but I feel pretty bad for my guildmate. He's worked his [Removed for Content] off for that Kilij, to finish a quest which has no bow reward, simply for the proc, for a small upping of his DPS. Now? Worthless.

I'm going to repeat this in big bold letters. There is no reason whatsoever for a ranger to do ANY of the prismatic quest lines. We are the only class that does not get a reward from these lines that is at least marginally useful toward our class's main purpose.

I wish the amazing amount of time I spent with SoD could be taken back. I wish the amount of time I've already spent on Claymore could be refunded. More than that, though, I wish the devs would pay attention to this issue and stop creating massive questlines that routinely ignore one of the classes they designed.

The true irony of all this, is that my friend could do one more Deathtoll raid, betray to assassin, and instantly be able to do 900-1k more DPS, while paying LESS money, AND get significant use out of his Claymore reward. Whereas if he stays a ranger, his claymore reward is nothing but a piece of stat jewelry, he has to pay out the nose for poisons AND arrows, and our sisters the assassins will still out-DPS him until if and when he gets lucky enough to get a bow drop--a thing which I have been trying to obtain for a full year and have yet to see once.

I understand that the rangers in the top-end guilds are probably blowing just about everyone away. But rangers in guilds that do not regularly down Mayong and Woushi are still far, far, far behind the other T1 and most of the T2 classes in DPS. Please, devs, remember that you are balancing more than just the top 1% of your playerbase. When you make sweeping changes like this (changes to ALL arrows, not just tenderwoods, changes to ALL weapon procs, and on and on), you might be bringing the top 1% of rangers in line (I don't know, I've never seen one in comparison to equally geared DPS classes), but the remainder of rangers, that DO raid, are falling further and further behind.

I'm going to repeat again, because the broader issue of DPS balance is not the true topic of this thread: There is now no reason for any ranger to do any of the prismatic questlines, as not a single one of them offers a reward that will even marginally benefit the ranger class.

Please address this issue.

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Old 07-12-2007, 01:52 AM   #46
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They already have addressed this issue.

Class epics in RoK. You cant seriously expect them to go back months/years later and change the rewards on the 3 previous (which by the way, I in no way shape or forum, consider SoD an "Epic" Quest line) epic quest lines and change the rewards.

In its time, the prismatic was a great weapon... godking weapon.. meh if you liked the regen I guess, but I didnt know anyone the really used it. Claymore... any decent ranger has a Kilij.. sure, true its being fixed in a few Game Updates, but it was still useful for nearly 2 full expansions, and by the time it does get fixed, RoK will be a few months away. So to say that the claymore line isnt useful would be wrong. When the procs are fixed, you might have an agruement... but currently, its a rangers best friend.

Since you seem to be hung on on SoD... lemme just ask you this. W TF  are you talking about? The amazing amount of time? SoD? Really? Seriously? You act like this was hard. Just about every quest in SoD is a joke. Instead of giving us a lot of short quests, they gave us time some really pathetic timesinks. Sorry, but that doesnt make an epic quest line. This whole series wasnt "massive" by any means. Dull and boring, yeah, but not massive. Then theres the fact that they released it in pieces, and looks like they finally just said screw it and threw a few more stupid things out there and called it a day. For the work, Id say this shouldnt even be a fabled reward.

Back to the point. RoK "should" address the issue of bad itemization for rangers in epic quest chains. Theres really not much of a point in carrying on over something thats already being addressed.

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Old 07-12-2007, 03:29 AM   #47
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We have no idea what the class epic weapons will be in RoK. Sure, common sense says it will be a bow...but you know, common sense also said that it's a good idea to provide weapons for every class when designing an expansion's signature quest.

So no, the issue has not yet been addressed. We HOPE the issue will be addressed with the next expansion. However? SoD was released only a few weeks ago. I see no bow there. I see no weapon that will proc off of ranged. I see the same, pardon my language, stupid [Removed for Content] that I have seen since the game's release, in that there is no bow reward, and there should be.

Is this the end of the game? No. Is this the end of the ranger class? No. Are there other bows? Yes. That doesn't change the fact that this is a ridiculous oversight that has gone on for three expansions plus the original game, and that it needs to stop being ignored.

And yes, SoD was time consuming. Comparable to Claymore? No, but time consuming all the same. Mucking around all over Mistmoore Castle is not easy. Not all of us are in top end raiding guilds. Not all of us have access to items which blow Claymore and SoD out of the water. Just because an issue does not affect you, does not mean it is not an issue, and I must admit I am getting very tired of higher end rangers telling other rangers that are still in the KoS/beginning EoF raid content that their issues mean nothing and there is no problem. You remember a year ago, what a pain it was to get a decent bow? Guess what. That issue is still there. The itemization is still screwed on that particular part of the progression scale. I'm very, very glad that rangers are doing well at the top now, but nothing about the itemization issues of early T7 has changed.

Yes. If there was a final bow reward for the two T7 prismatic lines, and that bow was comparable in any manner to the other rewards for those quests, you can bet I'd use it, and likely still be using it well into T8. There are an awful lot of people still using their claymore rewards. I understand that the folks at the very top are probably not. But you know? Not everyone is sitting at the very top. In fact, very few are. Telling everyone else to 'just deal with it' because it's a matter that does not personally affect you is not helpful or productive, it's just aggravating.

Do I expect the devs to actually go back and fix this? I highly doubt it will happen. That doesn't mean that I can't and won't bring it up until, perhaps, they get so tired of hearing about it that the next time they structure a prismatic quest they remember to include a bow. I've seen the devs respond to player imput. It is, after all, one of the reasons the boards exist. And I'm sure the devs don't intend for an entire class not to bother with these quests that they've obviously spent ages designing and implementing just because the end rewards aren't useful. And RoK is obviously not the last intended expansion. What about T9? T10? We've had four prismatic quests now, all with the same lack of bow reward. I don't like the pattern.

At the very least, maybe my whining will curtail any thoughts about releasing a ranger epic that is NOT a bow.

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Old 07-12-2007, 05:52 AM   #48
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kartikeya wrote:
And yes, SoD was time consuming. Comparable to Claymore? No, but time consuming all the same. Mucking around all over Mistmoore Castle is not easy. Not all of us are in top end raiding guilds. Not all of us have access to items which blow Claymore and SoD out of the water. Just because an issue does not affect you, does not mean it is not an issue, and I must admit I am getting very tired of higher end rangers telling other rangers that are still in the KoS/beginning EoF raid content that their issues mean nothing and there is no problem. You remember a year ago, what a pain it was to get a decent bow? Guess what. That issue is still there. The itemization is still screwed on that particular part of the progression scale. I'm very, very glad that rangers are doing well at the top now, but nothing about the itemization issues of early T7 has changed.

We must have different ideas of what a decent bow is. While its true, Bazkul, Sarnak, LBoC still dont rain from the heavens, there are several other options for "decent" bows for T7 rangers.

Raincaller - Pretty simple quest to get a decent bow. Works well for those just starting out.

Torn Ligament - A decent bow from Unrest. Another good starter bow.

Natures Bow of the Stalker

Windshaped Bow - Both drop off Sarik.. which is a fairly easy encounter and make for decent intermediate bows.

Thats 4 bows we didnt have the option to pick from right there that werent part of KoS.

And if you really want to spend the money, Im sure you can buy the best bow a Rigid Scale on most servers. So no, that issue isnt still there. Its true they arent the best bows in the game, but high end rangers didnt start out with the best bow in the game either and are certainly better options then what most rangers had at the start of their T7 raiding.

How many rangers are really going to be wielding a T5 or T6 bow for any lenght of time? Chances are, they wont be for very long. So changing Prizzy, or Godking would be a waste of resources in my opinion. Claymore DID provide us with something useful.. for almost a year. What more do you want? How long does it take to get to 70? Certainly not a year. If they havent finished the quest by now, chances are, they arent going to any time soon (in most cases). And again.. SoD was a joke... worst epic questline ever. Shoddy at best and it shoudnt even merit a fabled reward. Anyways, all of the quest gave a scout reward. Generic as it may be, its still a scout reward. No its not a bow.. and yes.. it can get old and frustrating to get passed over time and time again.. but they didnt exactly tailor rewards to be class specific. They are doing that with RoK. Will it be a bow? Who knows.. Most likely not. Will it be something useful for a ranger? God I hope so. I dont have much faith in them right now. Fact of the matter is, dispite all changes that have happened, and are yet to come... its still a good time to be a ranger. Bows are at an all time high in this tier compared to every other tier. Some are junk, some are decent and some are great but its certainly much better then it ever has been. So pardon me if I cant understand what all the complaining is about.

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Old 07-12-2007, 11:18 AM   #49
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TerriBlades wrote:

Raincaller - Pretty simple quest to get a decent bow. Works well for those just starting out.

Torn Ligament - A decent bow from Unrest. Another good starter bow.

Natures Bow of the Stalker

Windshaped Bow - Both drop off Sarik.. which is a fairly easy encounter and make for decent intermediate bows.

Thats 4 bows we didnt have the option to pick from right there that werent part of KoS.

And if you really want to spend the money, Im sure you can buy the best bow a Rigid Scale on most servers. So no, that issue isnt still there. Its true they arent the best bows in the game, but high end rangers didnt start out with the best bow in the game either and are certainly better options then what most rangers had at the start of their T7 raiding.

How many rangers are really going to be wielding a T5 or T6 bow for any lenght of time? Chances are, they wont be for very long. So changing Prizzy, or Godking would be a waste of resources in my opinion. Claymore DID provide us with something useful.. for almost a year. What more do you want? How long does it take to get to 70? Certainly not a year. If they havent finished the quest by now, chances are, they arent going to any time soon (in most cases). And again.. SoD was a joke... worst epic questline ever. Shoddy at best and it shoudnt even merit a fabled reward. Anyways, all of the quest gave a scout reward. Generic as it may be, its still a scout reward. No its not a bow.. and yes.. it can get old and frustrating to get passed over time and time again.. but they didnt exactly tailor rewards to be class specific. They are doing that with RoK. Will it be a bow? Who knows.. Most likely not. Will it be something useful for a ranger? God I hope so. I dont have much faith in them right now. Fact of the matter is, dispite all changes that have happened, and are yet to come... its still a good time to be a ranger. Bows are at an all time high in this tier compared to every other tier. Some are junk, some are decent and some are great but its certainly much better then it ever has been. So pardon me if I cant understand what all the complaining is about.

Rain Caller and the Torn Ligament (with T7 ammo) are both worse than the Ghostly Bow of Bylze.  

The other 2 are fine if you don't get cloth boots every time you kill Sarik and they don't perform that well with T7 ammo either which means you have to either get one of the DT bows for ammo or kill the Tenderling and get the ammo recipe. 

The Rigid Scale recipe was up for 2000p and the scale up for 400p.  I'm a bit short on funds for that...  If you want to sell me a rigid scale for a more reasonable price, I'll jump.  SMILEY

I've been wielding the T6 Ghostly Bow of Bylze for months and months (for ever it seems).  Sometimes you just get unlucky...

And the SoD provides a decent item for every class except the Ranger.  That's what the complaining is about.  They aren't the best items in the game, but they are useful if you haven't got anything better.  For a Ranger they are of zero use.

From Claymore, I still see the Qeynos Guard and the Arm of Mithaniel and The Arm of Erollisi being used quite a bit.  I haven't noticed how many still use the weapons, but those are harder to see visually.  And they give a proc'ing item to every single class, except for a Ranger (once the change happens)? 

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Old 07-12-2007, 03:27 PM   #50
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TerriBlades wrote:
kartikeya wrote:
And yes, SoD was time consuming. Comparable to Claymore? No, but time consuming all the same. Mucking around all over Mistmoore Castle is not easy. Not all of us are in top end raiding guilds. Not all of us have access to items which blow Claymore and SoD out of the water. Just because an issue does not affect you, does not mean it is not an issue, and I must admit I am getting very tired of higher end rangers telling other rangers that are still in the KoS/beginning EoF raid content that their issues mean nothing and there is no problem. You remember a year ago, what a pain it was to get a decent bow? Guess what. That issue is still there. The itemization is still screwed on that particular part of the progression scale. I'm very, very glad that rangers are doing well at the top now, but nothing about the itemization issues of early T7 has changed.

We must have different ideas of what a decent bow is. While its true, Bazkul, Sarnak, LBoC still dont rain from the heavens, there are several other options for "decent" bows for T7 rangers.

Raincaller - Pretty simple quest to get a decent bow. Works well for those just starting out.

 Am currently using this bow. My top zonewide is sitting at 1.5k when just about every other DPS class is hitting 2k or higher. Sometimes much higher. That's IF I get into a good group with all the necessary buffs. This is the level 57 bow I mention.

Torn Ligament - A decent bow from Unrest. Another good starter bow.

Parses slightly lower than rain caller, even adorned. I keep it as backup, and for instances where the proc from Rain Caller might be more troublesome to the raid as a whole.

Natures Bow of the Stalker

This is from Emerald Halls, I believe. Emerald Halls is not exactly on the same difficulty level as Labs/Deathtoll/Halls of Seeing. This is not a zone that rangers at my currently level of progression are going to see any time soon. Additionally? This bow is 99 something DR. Definitely better than Rain Caller, but still not really as good as the HoS bow, unless I miss my mark.

Windshaped Bow - Both drop off Sarik.. which is a fairly easy encounter and make for decent intermediate bows.

See above. Emerald Halls =/= the content level I'm pointing at. These encounters are NOT easy for my current raid force.

Thats 4 bows we didnt have the option to pick from right there that werent part of KoS.

Two of which I have, the other two of which are not on the same difficulty level as KoS content. My original point stands, this itemization gap still exists, you've simply moved past it. Rain Caller parses better than Grizzfazzles, yes, but not on the same level that a bow upgrade needs to (and it shouldn't, it's a level 57 bow for crying out loud). Ghostly Bow parses better than Rain Caller (and I kick myself every day for not paying attention to that reward options screen when it popped up.)

And if you really want to spend the money, Im sure you can buy the best bow a Rigid Scale on most servers. So no, that issue isnt still there. Its true they arent the best bows in the game, but high end rangers didnt start out with the best bow in the game either and are certainly better options then what most rangers had at the start of their T7 raiding.

I have a few things I check the broker for every day, and Rigid Scale and Sarnak Warbow are two of them. I have never, ever, ever, EVER seen the Rigid Scale bow for sale. If I did I imagine the price would be ridiculous. I have seen the Sarnak Warbow twice--for 200pp. The second time I saw it, the person selling upp'd the price while I was looking at it to 250pp. I know this is chump change to many people, but as I'm paying 1pp per raid on average, not counting repair costs, it's a bit out of my price range.

How many rangers are really going to be wielding a T5 or T6 bow for any lenght of time? Chances are, they wont be for very long.

Rain Caller is a T6 bow. I'd love to do a poll to see just how many rangers are still using that bow. You might be very surprised at the results. It's basically every single ranger I've ever raided with, with one exception. I have YET to see a ranger with the Sarnak Warbow, let alone in a raid of mine.

So changing Prizzy, or Godking would be a waste of resources in my opinion. Claymore DID provide us with something useful.. for almost a year. What more do you want?

 How about the same thing every other class gets? Why is that too much to ask for? Do you think rangers would be the only class to choose the bow reward? I'd bet that wouldn't be the case. And even if it were, I've got two words: Soulfire Kama. Oh look. A reward that is brawler only. That's only two classes out of the entire game that can equip it. A bow is equippable by how many classes now?

 How long does it take to get to 70? Certainly not a year. If they havent finished the quest by now, chances are, they arent going to any time soon (in most cases).

Why haven't I finished Claymore yet? Because the reward was already mediocre. A proc, yes, a very, very, very nice proc, but as a reward for how many quests, how many hours of camping? You can bet if they offered a bow reward that was even slightly comparable to equal level T7 bows I would leap all over that. I'm well capable of doing it, I simply haven't because the reward has been so crappy already, and now it's not even that.

And again.. SoD was a joke... worst epic questline ever. Shoddy at best and it shoudnt even merit a fabled reward.

 And yet, it does reward one. I don't care if it's the worst questline ever. I don't care if all you have to do is stroll down to a quest NPC and pick up your reward. If it's the major questline of an expansion, and you are rewarding every other class with an item, you reward rangers with an item.

Anyways, all of the quest gave a scout reward. Generic as it may be, its still a scout reward.

Yep, and every other scout can use it to upgrade their primary weapon except us. We're not a sword using class. We use bows. That would be like only giving the other classes an option to choose a bow for a line like these. If they did that, everyone would go apeshit, because, why? Because they would NEVER USE IT except as a stat item. Why is this any different?

No its not a bow.. and yes.. it can get old and frustrating to get passed over time and time again.. but they didnt exactly tailor rewards to be class specific. They are doing that with RoK. Will it be a bow? Who knows.. Most likely not. Will it be something useful for a ranger? God I hope so. I dont have much faith in them right now. Fact of the matter is, dispite all changes that have happened, and are yet to come... its still a good time to be a ranger. Bows are at an all time high in this tier compared to every other tier. Some are junk, some are decent and some are great but its certainly much better then it ever has been. So pardon me if I cant understand what all the complaining is about.

I'll ask you one question. What are you currently wielding in your ranged slot?

In fact, if you can't honestly figure out what the fuss is about, take Rain Caller, or the Unrest bow, to a raid. Use that bow exclusively. See what you get. I can guarantee you that your results will be higher, thanks to your gear, than any results the rangers at my level of raiding would get.

I'm sorry, but 'this issue doesn't affect me personally' is not an excuse for saying an issue does not exist at all. I know rangers at the top have it very good right now. Believe me, I'm very glad for you. It's awesome. But it's only because you ARE at the top. All I want is to be able to compete with classes that have geared up in the very same zones that I have, have way more utility than I do, pay less than I do, without having to kill frigging Mayong Mistmoore first to do so. It's a nasty unbalance, and this recent change is only a symptom of the much larger, underlying problem.

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Old 07-12-2007, 04:10 PM   #51
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We've finally entered EH.....

Seen Sarik 2 out of 3 times, and he drops.....wait for it.......

Cloth boots!  Both times!

In 6 months of doing KOS zones, I've seen Sarnak drop one time (sadly, I wasn't top ranger on our ladder system), and neither Bazkul or Ichorstrand at all.  I've even heard a swashbuckler say he might dibs on it if it drops, because he didn't have a good ranged weapon.  Now that doesn't mean our guild leader would let him, but the description on the bow is SCOUTS, not just ranger.

I've seen a number of 2-handers end up being transmuted, along with a ton of other gear, after everyone in the raid has one.  One time our MT even took his chestpiece off and transmuted it and put on the drop, because all our tanks had the item in question.

Rumor has it that with the changes to DW weapons coming in, the removal of procs off ranged attacks for some or all types of melee weapons, including the 628 and Qeynos Kilij, doesn't exactly encourage any ranger to complete the grind to finish or obtain these, unless the stats alone are an improvement.  Personally, with a title like Swords of Destiny, I'm not complaining that there isn't a bow reward. 

How about a quest called BOWS OF DESTINY instead?

RNG is rangers' worst nightmare.

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Old 07-12-2007, 06:36 PM   #52
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Bottom line is that EH and higher raiding rangers really need to stop thinking they're a voice for the entire ranger community. The mere qualifier that any player is hitting that content instantly disqualifies them from having an accurate picture of what 99% of the game's populace feels. If you should attempt to try it anyhow, do us all a favor and slip out of your fabled boots and put yourself in our treasured and legendary shoes. There are some major problems that need to be addressed with rangers that aren't cutting edge raid-geared, and some glaringly obvious flaws in the way quest rewards are currently being assigned. We're not asking to be causing equal damage to raiders, we're asking for more gear variety and reasonable ways to attain it - it's a long-standing issue that's only being exposed anew by the fact that our prismatic lines are no longer worth doing. Unless I finally decide to finish that betrayal quest.
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:16 AM   #53
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Kartikeya. Have you zoned into EH and tried Sarik? Hes really not any more difficult then any other encounter, so saying that you cant get a Natures bow, or Windhaped because EH is too hard just doesnt cut it here. The one gripe you might have is that he is a random spawn, but saying hes too difficult? Nah, not really gonna fly here.

The Itemization gap you're speaking of isnt a gap, its called PROGRESSION. It happens all the time in this game. In KoS there was a HUGE gap between bows, what EoF did was fill those holes quite nicely. No, you dont deserve the best bow in the game if you cant beat the toughest ecounters in the game. Why do you feel you need instant gratification? Work for it just like everyone else did.

You talk like you are the only ranger in the game that has to spend money. News flash, you arent. While 200p may be a lot for you, it isnt for others. Theres more then one way to get the item, buying it was just another option. You could... oh I donno.. KILL the mob that drops it until you finally get one. Yes this can be frustrating, but in the end, worthwhile.

Raincaller is the exception here, due to the fact that it was released when EoF was. Its a decent bow, for a little bit of work, and any ranger can get there hands on it. Its not supposed to be an end all be all bow, it just fills a gap.

You want to tailor epic quest rewards to fit your class specificly? WHERE do you see that being done for anyone else? First and formost, you are a SCOUT, and at least with Claymore and SoD there are 2 SCOUT specific rewards. If the devs made a bow, just for rangers, then every other class would moan that they didnt get a more specific type of weapon. You see the delema here?

So lets get this straight, you havent finished your claymore, yet you are complaining that the quest reward isnt good enough? When every other ranger thats finished it is most likely using the Kilij? Sorry, but the only person you have to blame here is yourself. Slacking off is not a good excuse to complain about something. Its even worse to complain about a reward when you havent even bothered to take the time to finish the quest. SoD follows the same design that every other epic reward has. 1-2 items for a tank, 1-2 items for a scout, 1 item for mages and 1 item for healers. Thats the ways its been. Yes, yes, I get that we use bows, but we are also the ONLY class that so heavily relys on them, but that doesnt warrent making a specific item just for use when no other class gets that type of treatment.

My ranged slot you will find a Rigid Scale Bow. You also find that I have the Kilij/Buckler of the Howler combo as well? So whats that mean? That Im out of touch because I have a RSB? I doubt it. Before my RSB I had Sarnak, before that I had Snew Wrapped, before that I had Grizzles, before that I had a crafted legendary bow (cant remember the wood type for T6). But you know what, I'll take you up on your offer. I'll either take down my RC from the wall, or I'll try and get a Torn Ligament bow, and I'll see just how different life is with one of those. Yeah, I expect to see a perfomance drop, just as you would expect to see a jump from going to a better bow, but I dont think breaking 2k will be an issue even with one of those. I'll let ya know though.

Its not that it doesnt affect me personally, at one time, when there was just KoS life was much more difficult for rangers then it is now. There are a ton more options to improve your DPS as a whole. I havent been running around so long with a Sarnak, or RSB that I have forgotten what life was like before then. Trust me, I remember strugglen (and usually failing) to out parse the brigands and assassins at the raid. Gearing up at the same rate the rest of your raids scout do would be a god send.. and frankly, I dont think it would be that hard to implement. One longbow per zone on par with the rest of the zones loot would be perfect. You wont get an arguement out of me here with this one. That still however doesnt mean the random number generator will be kind.

Badaxe.

Wow.. you've seen Sarik twice in three trips in... /cheer (perhaps you can smell the sarcasm here). I dont think I, of all ppl, need to be reminded of what its like to have to watch week after week, waiting for an item that Im dying to get my hands on. Funny thing, after months of zoning into EH, and countless times of killing Sarik, I finally got my Natures Gloves. Grats me! You know what was worse then that wait? Waiting on a good bow while KoS was our only option. Months of killing the same mobs over and over and over again. First and only time Ichorstrand dropped, I was lucky enough to get it... then more months of killing and killind and killing (you get the idea?) yey w00t Sarnak. So please, dont come to me like your 3 weeks of zoning into EH and killing Sarik he worthy of the pain many of the older rangers had while trying to get 2 of the 3 most coveted bows in the game. It honestly doesnt compare and its a slap in the face. I can however see that instant gratification is what you're after with that one statment.

In the YEAR that Ive raided HoS, we've seen Sarnak drop once. In the year that Ive raided DT Ive seen 1 ichorstrand, and 1 bazkul. So yeah, I know what its like to have to wait, and wait and wait some more. Ive paid my dues, dont for one second think that I havent.

Sydares...

Wow... how original you must feel to try and play the whole casual v/s raider card here. I dont try and act like Im a voice for the entire ranger community. I do however have a big issue with the whine that pours from these, and several other forums everytime theres a change that affects the class. Some are worthy of the whine, others not so much. I feel that this particular topic falls under the "not so much" catagory. The problems that you claim need to be addressed are the same ones that were addressed this expansion that several of us RAIDING rangers brought to light last expansion. Yes we bitched and we moaned about the lack of bows in KoS. Low and behold, theres quite a few more bows to be had.

Flaws? No, your percepton of the way quest rewards are done might seem flawed, but if you actually too the time to read this whole long winded thing Im gonna call a post, you would see they all follow the basic tank, scout, healer, mage itemization. You are in fact a scout. If you decide that melee isnt the best option for you, thats your choice. However, that doesnt mean that weapon is totally useless in your hands. You just dont gain a HUGE benifit, which I think is what alot of players here [Removed for Content] about this are looking for. Its a generic quest reward designed to give all scouts a weapon. Yeah, it could be a bow, but then it would be largely under-utilized by the rest of the scouts. So it would basicly be geared for just us, unless that scout had a better melee weapon already.. Then maybe I could see them opting for the bow.

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Old 07-13-2007, 12:47 AM   #54
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TerriBlades wrote:
Sydares...

Wow... how original you must feel to try and play the whole casual v/s raider card here. I dont try and act like Im a voice for the entire ranger community. I do however have a big issue with the whine that pours from these, and several other forums everytime theres a change that affects the class. Some are worthy of the whine, others not so much. I feel that this particular topic falls under the "not so much" catagory. The problems that you claim need to be addressed are the same ones that were addressed this expansion that several of us RAIDING rangers brought to light last expansion. Yes we [I cannot control my vocabulary] and we moaned about the lack of bows in KoS. Low and behold, theres quite a few more bows to be had.

Flaws? No, your percepton of the way quest rewards are done might seem flawed, but if you actually too the time to read this whole long winded thing Im gonna call a post, you would see they all follow the basic tank, scout, healer, mage itemization. You are in fact a scout. If you decide that melee isnt the best option for you, thats your choice. However, that doesnt mean that weapon is totally useless in your hands. You just dont gain a HUGE benifit, which I think is what alot of players here [I cannot control my vocabulary] about this are looking for. Its a generic quest reward designed to give all scouts a weapon. Yeah, it could be a bow, but then it would be largely under-utilized by the rest of the scouts. So it would basicly be geared for just us, unless that scout had a better melee weapon already.. Then maybe I could see them opting for the bow.

This is, without a doubt, the poorest excuse for a retort that you could have come up with. As a ranger, I'd expect you to know that melee viability and rangers don't mix. We've got awful mitigation, and awful melee combat arts. Even specced fully into melee AAs, (which I have tried, just for kicks) the end result is nothing short of pathetic. Essentially, you're saying that a class whose only role is damage - when offered the choice between pushing 2000 or pushing 900, I have an option to choose melee is wrong-headed. I'd be laughed off of the server, and rightfully so. And there's a slight flaw in your argument. they all follow the basic tank, scout, healer, mage itemization. This might hold water, if there weren't items specifically tailored for brawlers and brawlers alone in there as well. I'm not asking for preferential treatment, I'm asking for equal treatment. That's what this is mostly about, not about whether or not they shave off our melee procs entirely - it's what they're intending to do for us to make up for another (if slight) nerf, and the complete trivialization of absurdly long questlines.
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:50 AM   #55
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TerriBlades wrote:

Kartikeya. Have you zoned into EH and tried Sarik? Hes really not any more difficult then any other encounter, so saying that you cant get a Natures bow, or Windhaped because EH is too hard just doesnt cut it here. The one gripe you might have is that he is a random spawn, but saying hes too difficult? Nah, not really gonna fly here.

I have zoned into EH once. We made it to the first named. We died on the first named. Yes, he is difficult. Not to you, of course, because you are much higher on the progression ladder than I am. But to me and the folks I raid with, he's currently out of reach. I hope one day to go back to EH and get farther, but right now, it's not happening I'm afraid. The difficulty of anything is a matter of relativity. He's easy to your raid force. He's too hard right now for mine.

The Itemization gap you're speaking of isnt a gap, its called PROGRESSION. It happens all the time in this game. In KoS there was a HUGE gap between bows, what EoF did was fill those holes quite nicely. No, you dont deserve the best bow in the game if you cant beat the toughest ecounters in the game. Why do you feel you need instant gratification? Work for it just like everyone else did.

There's a gap in the progression. The same gap that existed when you went through this particular part of the progression, with the exception, thankfully, of rain caller. Which I'm using. Which, alas, isn't enough to compete with any other DPS class right now. I'm not asking for the best bows in the game to drop into my lap. I'm asking for a comparable bow to the weapons found in zones such as labs and Lyceum, and hell, even Deathtoll. And if farming a single zone for a year isn't 'working' for something, I don't know what is.

You talk like you are the only ranger in the game that has to spend money. News flash, you arent. While 200p may be a lot for you, it isnt for others. Theres more then one way to get the item, buying it was just another option. You could... oh I donno.. KILL the mob that drops it until you finally get one. Yes this can be frustrating, but in the end, worthwhile.

Of course I'm not the only ranger who has to spend money. We all do, and that's another balance argument. 200pp is a ton of money, and quite frankly, if I had 200pp to drop on that bow I would have snatched it up in an instant. Given neither one stayed on the broker for longer than an hour, I assume a more wealthy ranger than I got it. Oh well. Point being, buying one of these bows seems to be way out of my price range right now. And I repeat. I have been killing the mob. For a year.

Raincaller is the exception here, due to the fact that it was released when EoF was. Its a decent bow, for a little bit of work, and any ranger can get there hands on it. Its not supposed to be an end all be all bow, it just fills a gap.

It's a level 57 bow. I'm grateful for it, but it's not meant to 'fill the gap' in T7, and it doesn't. It gives me a boost over Grizzfazzles, and a miniscule one over the Unrest bow. It's not enough to fill the gap, as I've observed. Not nearly.

You want to tailor epic quest rewards to fit your class specificly? WHERE do you see that being done for anyone else? First and formost, you are a SCOUT, and at least with Claymore and SoD there are 2 SCOUT specific rewards. If the devs made a bow, just for rangers, then every other class would moan that they didnt get a more specific type of weapon. You see the delema here?

Soulfire Kama. Brawlers. Only ones that can use. That's not a fighter weapon, it's a brawler weapon. Secondly, they changed the wizard staff to a 1hander to please the wizards, because they pointed out how very desirable a 1hander is over a 2hander. So yes, I'm seeing the devs are paying attention to other classes that have issues with the prismatic questlines. And while we are scouts, we are not melee scouts. This is not a new argument. This argument has been around since at least the second prismatic. If the devs design a class that revolves entirely around the bow, as they have, then they need to provide the appropriate equipment for that class. It has nothing to do with any of the above--item progression, number of bows in the game, whether rangers parse first or dead last. It has to do with a major questline awarding an appropriate weapon for a ranger. Much like wizards wanted and got. Much like brawlers got. If there's a dilemma, I've no sympathy. It's a dilemma they created themselves when they left us out in the first place.

So lets get this straight, you havent finished your claymore, yet you are complaining that the quest reward isnt good enough? When every other ranger thats finished it is most likely using the Kilij? Sorry, but the only person you have to blame here is yourself. Slacking off is not a good excuse to complain about something. Its even worse to complain about a reward when you havent even bothered to take the time to finish the quest. SoD follows the same design that every other epic reward has. 1-2 items for a tank, 1-2 items for a scout, 1 item for mages and 1 item for healers. Thats the ways its been. Yes, yes, I get that we use bows, but we are also the ONLY class that so heavily relys on them, but that doesnt warrent making a specific item just for use when no other class gets that type of treatment.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying I never bothered to finish in the first place because the Kilij was ALREADY a [Removed for Content] poor reward. I'm not sad I'm going to miss out on the Kilij proc. I'm pointing out we should never have been tied to the Kilij in the first place. And since we're the only class that relies so desperately heavily on bows, it would follow that the devs, being the folks that designed us that way, should design a bow reward when they design quests such as this. I know that's the way it's been. I'm saying the way it's been is wrong. Has always been wrong. And should never have been that way to begin with, let alone continue for four major questlines. It does indeed warrant making a specific item just for us. They designed us that way. *shrug* And as I said before, I'd bet the bow would be picked up by more than just rangers. Any bow using class that already has a better weapon for the slot they'd usually choose in these quests can have the option of picking the bow instead, a slot which has got to be woefully hard to fill for a non-ranger given how rare bows are, and how desperate rangers are to get them.

My ranged slot you will find a Rigid Scale Bow. You also find that I have the Kilij/Buckler of the Howler combo as well? So whats that mean? That Im out of touch because I have a RSB? I doubt it. Before my RSB I had Sarnak, before that I had Snew Wrapped, before that I had Grizzles, before that I had a crafted legendary bow (cant remember the wood type for T6). But you know what, I'll take you up on your offer. I'll either take down my RC from the wall, or I'll try and get a Torn Ligament bow, and I'll see just how different life is with one of those. Yeah, I expect to see a perfomance drop, just as you would expect to see a jump from going to a better bow, but I dont think breaking 2k will be an issue even with one of those. I'll let ya know though.

I'm just guestimating, but I expect you'll be able to break 2k thanks to the other gear you have. I'd be very interested to see if you get much higher than that. Please do let me know how it compares.

Its not that it doesnt affect me personally, at one time, when there was just KoS life was much more difficult for rangers then it is now. There are a ton more options to improve your DPS as a whole. I havent been running around so long with a Sarnak, or RSB that I have forgotten what life was like before then. Trust me, I remember strugglen (and usually failing) to out parse the brigands and assassins at the raid. Gearing up at the same rate the rest of your raids scout do would be a god send.. and frankly, I dont think it would be that hard to implement. One longbow per zone on par with the rest of the zones loot would be perfect. You wont get an arguement out of me here with this one. That still however doesnt mean the random number generator will be kind.

Agree 100%. That's honestly what I'm asking for, apart from the prismatic issue. I don't remember if it was in this thread or another where I pointed out that simply changing the Wurm Destroyer (from labs) into a longbow with the appropriate stats ALONE might solve most of the problem right there. And as I keep mentioning, the RNG and I do not get along. I've never seen Sarnak drop in a year of farming. I've never seen Bazkul. I've seen Ichorstand once (and another ranger got it, but a bard wanted to roll on it.)

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Old 07-13-2007, 01:55 AM   #56
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Sydares wrote:
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Sydares...

Wow... how original you must feel to try and play the whole casual v/s raider card here. I dont try and act like Im a voice for the entire ranger community. I do however have a big issue with the whine that pours from these, and several other forums everytime theres a change that affects the class. Some are worthy of the whine, others not so much. I feel that this particular topic falls under the "not so much" catagory. The problems that you claim need to be addressed are the same ones that were addressed this expansion that several of us RAIDING rangers brought to light last expansion. Yes we [I cannot control my vocabulary] and we moaned about the lack of bows in KoS. Low and behold, theres quite a few more bows to be had.

Flaws? No, your percepton of the way quest rewards are done might seem flawed, but if you actually too the time to read this whole long winded thing Im gonna call a post, you would see they all follow the basic tank, scout, healer, mage itemization. You are in fact a scout. If you decide that melee isnt the best option for you, thats your choice. However, that doesnt mean that weapon is totally useless in your hands. You just dont gain a HUGE benifit, which I think is what alot of players here [I cannot control my vocabulary] about this are looking for. Its a generic quest reward designed to give all scouts a weapon. Yeah, it could be a bow, but then it would be largely under-utilized by the rest of the scouts. So it would basicly be geared for just us, unless that scout had a better melee weapon already.. Then maybe I could see them opting for the bow.

This is, without a doubt, the poorest excuse for a retort that you could have come up with. As a ranger, I'd expect you to know that melee viability and rangers don't mix. We've got awful mitigation, and awful melee combat arts. Even specced fully into melee AAs, (which I have tried, just for kicks) the end result is nothing short of pathetic. Essentially, you're saying that a class whose only role is damage - when offered the choice between pushing 2000 or pushing 900, I have an option to choose melee is wrong-headed. I'd be laughed off of the server, and rightfully so. And there's a slight flaw in your argument. they all follow the basic tank, scout, healer, mage itemization. This might hold water, if there weren't items specifically tailored for brawlers and brawlers alone in there as well. I'm not asking for preferential treatment, I'm asking for equal treatment. That's what this is mostly about, not about whether or not they shave off our melee procs entirely - it's what they're intending to do for us to make up for another (if slight) nerf, and the complete trivialization of absurdly long questlines.

There isnt a slight flaw in my arguement. Fact is, you are a scout.. there are already 2 weapons for scouts in both claymore, as well as SoD. How many more will it take to statisfy you? Yeah I know, just one. A bow. blah blah blah. It didnt happen. More then likely its not going to ever change. Too many ppl have already completed claymore to change it. Im sure there are plenty that are done, or near done with SoD.

You know who else has crappy mit? Assassins. Sure they have some pretty heafty melee CAs, but guess what, most of those are all flanking attacks. We have the the ablilty to down a mob before it gets to us, assassins... hmmm not so much. Come to think about it. Bards have some pretty poor melee skills, maybe we could throw in a few new items for them too. Like some sort of musical instrument with alot of Int on it.

So they've tailor an item for brawlers, still not a single class. You can say that they did that with predators as well with the DW version of claymore and SoD. You can say they did that with the 1H version for Rogues. Now wheres that leave us? Right back where we were.

Fact of the matter is, Bows are more plentiful now, then they have ever been before. So I dont buy the arguement that we need more bows in our epic quest lines. Rather what you SHOULD be trying to change would be the usefulness of the available bows. You'd be far more likely to catch the ear of a Dev by asking for a few tweaks to some of the mid-range bows then to ask them to go back and add in new quest line rewards just for the sole purpose of making a few rangers that havent finished the quests happy.

Personally, I firmly believe that the Torn Ligament Bow should be better then Raincaller. If it isnt, someone should start /petitioning that to get is adjusted. Its already got a better DR, and more levels. The only reason I could see RC being slightly better is the fabled tag it carries. However, tweaking the spread on TLB would be an easier solution then to gripe that you feel left out on the epic quest lines, when in fact you werent. Its just less of a reward for rangers then it is for melee driven classes because of the fact that we do very little melee damage. However, having said that, we DO still deal some melee damage, so is it a total waste? No, I dont believe it is, unless you have something better already, and in great deal of instances with melee classes, this is already the case. Why should they bother doing SoD? Seriously, guilds that have been killing Mayong for awhile have no real reason to do SoD. Why should they? They already have better gear.... they do it anyways.

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Old 07-13-2007, 02:07 AM   #57
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TerriBlades wrote:

Personally, I firmly believe that the Torn Ligament Bow should be better then Raincaller. If it isnt, someone should start /petitioning that to get is adjusted. Its already got a better DR, and more levels. The only reason I could see RC being slightly better is the fabled tag it carries. However, tweaking the spread on TLB would be an easier solution then to gripe that you feel left out on the epic quest lines, when in fact you werent. Its just less of a reward for rangers then it is for melee driven classes because of the fact that we do very little melee damage. However, having said that, we DO still deal some melee damage, so is it a total waste? No, I dont believe it is, unless you have something better already, and in great deal of instances with melee classes, this is already the case. Why should they bother doing SoD? Seriously, guilds that have been killing Mayong for awhile have no real reason to do SoD. Why should they? They already have better gear.... they do it anyways.

It would be if we had T8 ammo.  It is too bad it doesn't summon some T8 ammo, like the Bag of Cogs does for thrown weapons.  With T7 ammo, Torn Ligament really underperforms.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:21 AM   #58
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Kartikeya

My last post was already long enough, so I wont bother with the quote here, but it will still be broken up.

I like to thing that Im a pretty helpful ranger. No, I dont always come off that way.. I know in a lot of instance I can seem much more like an A.. then anything else. However, I usually try and help other players as often as it comes up. That being said, if you have questions about things... be it playing the class (not saying you need help mind you), or encounters or whatever, most of the time I'll help where I can. As will a lot of other rangers that I know of.

As for the gap in progression.... to some degree, it might still be there, but it is in no way, shape or form, as bad as it was. As I said in my last post, if its the progression of bows you are taking issue with, then by all means, take issue with that. There are some bad bows, some okay bows, so decent bows and a few really nice bows to have. The idea to get Wyrm changed to a longbow isnt half bad, neither would be tweaking some of the damage output on a few other seemingly subpar bows.

Buying a RSB is out of the question for a lot of players. I can understand that completely as I usually only run around with 20p or so to my name at any given time.

Raincaller DOES fill a role, however, its role is being over extended and flowing into T7 when it really shouldnt. If you take a look at all of the bows for T6 you'll understand that it does fill a role. I think, and I might be wrong, but I think there was only 1 Fabled bow in DoF. Darkfury Longbow. If Im wrong, someone please correct me, becuase I never saw another one.. could be I just didnt look hard enough. At the time of that expansion, it wasnt really a big deal because we had some insane procage going on and most ppl were just happy enough to use a rare crafted bow. That was basicly the two options for that expansion. Rare crafted, or Darkfury.

As I said in my last post. Soulfire Kama works with brawlers, just like the 1her works with rogues, just like the DW version works with preds.  While we arent melee scouts, we still equip some sort of a melee weapon. I dont see where this makes any difference as to what the reward should be. Its useable by us, we have multiple choices. As far as other scouts using bows, they basicly pick up a bow for much the same reason we might pick up a weapon. It will seldom be used to its full potential, but it makes a nice enough slot for a stat buff.

The thing about the Kilij is, in the hands of a ranger (as long as its proc'n off ranged) its NOT a [Removed for Content] poor reward. In its broken state, its actually a very handy tool that you have at your disposal that you have yet to capitolize on. Any damage increase you can get at this point is a good increase. Take it where you can, and get it quick because tomorrow it might not be that way. With as many bows as there is in this tier, there simply isnt enough justification to add more into epic quests. Yeah, from a ranger point of view it would be nice, but not truely needed.

I'll let you know how it goes, though Im thinking that you might only get the parse from trash depending on what zone we raid.

Finally, Im glad we could actually find some common ground. Now if your raid leader lets the bard bid on the next T8 ammo bow, he needs to get slapped upside the head. Simple as that.

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Old 07-13-2007, 02:24 AM   #59
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Effidian wrote:
TerriBlades wrote:

Personally, I firmly believe that the Torn Ligament Bow should be better then Raincaller. If it isnt, someone should start /petitioning that to get is adjusted. Its already got a better DR, and more levels. The only reason I could see RC being slightly better is the fabled tag it carries. However, tweaking the spread on TLB would be an easier solution then to gripe that you feel left out on the epic quest lines, when in fact you werent. Its just less of a reward for rangers then it is for melee driven classes because of the fact that we do very little melee damage. However, having said that, we DO still deal some melee damage, so is it a total waste? No, I dont believe it is, unless you have something better already, and in great deal of instances with melee classes, this is already the case. Why should they bother doing SoD? Seriously, guilds that have been killing Mayong for awhile have no real reason to do SoD. Why should they? They already have better gear.... they do it anyways.

It would be if we had T8 ammo.  It is too bad it doesn't summon some T8 ammo, like the Bag of Cogs does for thrown weapons.  With T7 ammo, Torn Ligament really underperforms.
You may, or may not be aware of this, but the ammo from Bag of Cogs is temporary. Log out, and poof, its gone. Though not a bad idea to relieve some of the burden that rangers suffer at the cost of ammo.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:27 AM   #60
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TerriBlades wrote:
There isnt a slight flaw in my arguement. Fact is, you are a scout..
I'm a Ranger. Otherwise known as the only scout class that doesn't melee. What are you? Whether you like it or not, we have problems. Sure, they're problems that don't affect you, as you're running around in all fabled, but given your post history, this seems to be the norm for you. I can completely understand why you don't want retroactive fixes - you're in a raiding guild (surprise!) that will most likely zap right through the epic quests when they come out, but to say that they're the 'fix' for the hole in progression that exists for all players from 57 all the way up through and continuing into 70 is simply wrong-headed. A fix for problems is to fix the problems, not promise to do it right in the future... Because really, what evidence do we have that they will?
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