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Old 10-22-2012, 10:05 PM   #1
slippery

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This stuff is about as clear as mud. It seems l ike the word you are looking for is triggers, not increments. It seems like most of these spells you cast and get a certain number triggers. The whole trying to use the word increments really really muddies up the description. 

The right side for example. To me it seems like you cast it, you get 10 triggers for the group on a first come first serve basis. Whoever triggers them fastest gets them. Once those 10 triggers are gone, nothing. 

So what is increment gain 10? 

Or is it supposed to be that every time you cast this spell it adds 10 more triggers to whatever you have remaining, but since you cap at 10 (and nothing says anything about increasing this cap) that doesn't really matter. Why not just say triggers? We've been using the word triggers for years, and it is the same exact thing.

That said, I like the flavor of both sides. However, I'm a little skeptical about the left side. It's fine in a group scenario, but it's kind of impossible to use in a raid scenario if you aren't in the MT group. Having random tanks pulling mobs can easily wipe raids. I'd rather see this line go along the support role. More power, buff heals/survivability. The agro control for non fighters is nice, but having the hate positions tied to the damage/heal/power proc for Fighters could create a whole lot of problems.

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:23 AM   #2
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I was thinking the same thing about increments... Why not use the word trigger? Might be due to certain abilities increasing triggers on spells, and this prevents that unwanted effect.

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:15 PM   #3
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Haven't really had much chance to mess around on my coercer yet, though I was a bit surprised to see the coercer 'final' ability grant potency, and the illusionist one receiving crit bonus (would have expected to see that the other way around based on typical group setups, but maybe Xelgad was just trying to offer more of a benefit to priests/heals in actual tank group setups /shrug). Aside from that, it seems the coercers grant 2.5% per 'rank', whereas illusionists for some reason only grant 2.0% per rank.

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:33 PM   #4
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slippery wrote:

This stuff is about as clear as mud. It seems l ike the word you are looking for is triggers, not increments. It seems like most of these spells you cast and get a certain number triggers. The whole trying to use the word increments really really muddies up the description. 

The right side for example. To me it seems like you cast it, you get 10 triggers for the group on a first come first serve basis. Whoever triggers them fastest gets them. Once those 10 triggers are gone, nothing. 

So what is increment gain 10? 

Or is it supposed to be that every time you cast this spell it adds 10 more triggers to whatever you have remaining, but since you cap at 10 (and nothing says anything about increasing this cap) that doesn't really matter. Why not just say triggers? We've been using the word triggers for years, and it is the same exact thing.

That said, I like the flavor of both sides. However, I'm a little skeptical about the left side. It's fine in a group scenario, but it's kind of impossible to use in a raid scenario if you aren't in the MT group. Having random tanks pulling mobs can easily wipe raids. I'd rather see this line go along the support role. More power, buff heals/survivability. The agro control for non fighters is nice, but having the hate positions tied to the damage/heal/power proc for Fighters could create a whole lot of problems.

Doesn't matter who gets the triggers on Ether Balance as it says in the description all damage/restoration is given to the coercer!

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Old 10-23-2012, 05:30 PM   #5
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Yeah it says all is attributed to coercer, which is nice. The increment did confuse me a bit though, but I assume it means triggers?

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Old 10-23-2012, 07:02 PM   #6
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Yea, it is triggers. Honestly, and this goes for everything all the classes get, I'd rather get more triggers then faster reuse. A new spell that I have to cast every 5 seconds is not desirable at all. It's just bad gameplay. It is like if you had to hit a key to auto attack every 5 seconds. More triggers, longer reuse
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:28 PM   #7
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Ether Balance is not triggering at all. Just ran a full x4 zone and not a single trigger of it.

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Old 10-25-2012, 11:46 PM   #8
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Oops. Fixed internally.

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Old 10-25-2012, 11:55 PM   #9
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Can we just have it returned to how it was with 100% chance to trigger?

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:02 AM   #10
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Xelgad wrote:

Oops. Fixed internally.

Fantastic, thanks for the speedy response Xelgad.

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Old 10-26-2012, 07:38 PM   #11
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Ether Balance doesn't proc since the update Thurs.  With 3 points in it the 5 sec recast and the 2x/min proc rate would seem to make managing this to get the most dps a pain. I would think increasing the size of the damage proc or number of procs and making the recast a little longer would be a better compromise.

Mind Control enhancements ( Mind Jolt, Mental Infusion etc) only trigger 3 or 5 times depending on whether you have Mind Mastery, if that is the intent please update the description wording which makes it appear they will proc on any spell or combat hit during the entire 15 sec duration.

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Old 10-27-2012, 08:50 AM   #12
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any reason it havent been fixed yet ? 

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Old 10-27-2012, 03:19 PM   #13
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Mind Control doesn't crit, not sure if intended or not

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Old 10-27-2012, 11:09 PM   #14
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shannontroester wrote:

Mind Control doesn't crit, not sure if intended or not

It's critting for me, at least Mind Jolt and Mental Infusion are.

What I am having problems with is getting Etheral Balance to proc. I can cast and leave it running for the full 24s duration and am lucky to see it proc 3x out of a possible 13.

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Old 10-29-2012, 01:52 PM   #15
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Etheral Balance doesn't seem to proc very frequently, doesn't seem to make sense to have a 5 sec recast when it only procs a few times in the full 24 sec duration

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Old 10-29-2012, 11:12 PM   #16
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Kree Ironfist wrote:

Etheral Balance doesn't seem to proc very frequently, doesn't seem to make sense to have a 5 sec recast when it only procs a few times in the full 24 sec duration

It doesn't make sense, sometimes i will get all 13 of mine to go off in raid then next time i cast in a fight i might only get 7.

Its simply terrible how it is now, the skill was much better before the change.

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Old 10-31-2012, 04:18 AM   #17
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coerced protection should grat the pet 25% of the pets owner melee skills per rank as well this should go for all the pet classes that get the same basic "pet protection" prestige

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:48 PM   #18
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The current verison of Ether Balance needs to be reworked because in its current state its pretty much garbage.

I have some parses here of Ether Balance, before its change and after.

Also my potency is 306.5

my crit bonus is 349.5

ability mod is 5,572

933 MA (never got around to putting MA adorns on but it was a 88ish% chance for 7th hit)

This is all self buffs and before procs.

Before: DP from Skyshrine (8 min 15 second run)

After: Had roughly the same group, assassin and warden were out due to Sandy...

As you can see its number of hits is way lower, if i remove the 3 strikes from it it comes out to be 726 hits at 15 triggers vs 179 hits at 13 triggers, which is roughly 4 times as many total hits.

Now I'm not asking to fully restore it back (although that would be cool), but I'm asking to make it have its 100% proc chance again instead of the 2 times per minute.

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Old 11-02-2012, 02:47 AM   #19
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Two points related to coercer prestige abilities.

I just got done running several test mobs, including all of Sleeper's Tomb: Unearthed.

The first point is that Mind Control's Mind Jolt would not proc.  I cannot find a single proc of it in the half-instance of Unearthed after I switched to it.

Second, the Ether Balance Coercer Prestige seems of mediocre usefulness at this point in time.

Overall, it does about the same DPS as Mind Control, when MC is at 3 points and without Mind Jolt.  If Mind Jolt is fixed, MC will provide between double and triple the DPS of Ether Balance.

The focused power regen of MC is far more useful when it comes to regen'ing tanks on bosses with power drain melee strikes (and healers on Challenge modes), of which there seem to be quite a few.  Ether Balance's power regen, even with a full 3 points into boosting it, is essentially useless (76 mana on a 2ppm proc, vs 6000-11500 essentially instantaneous on MC for me on tooltips.  Actual procs are much higher due to CB/Pot/Mod).

To compound the issue, there is no real difference between 1 point in Ether Balance and 3 points, as the 2 procs per minute proc rate on Ether Balance often leaves it with charges remaining at expiration.  I would typically see it decay off with 2-3 charges remaining (I did have the +3 procs Prestige talent, Etherwave), and several times saw it decay off with 4-5 procs remaining.  When it was burnt up completely, I never saw it happen within the 15s original reuse time (I do have 100% reuse), so the "decreased reuse time" from additional points is a complete waste once someone starts picking up lvl 90+ gear due to the amount of reuse available.

I would suggest either a massive increase in Ether Balance procs, somewhere on the order of 6-8ppm, or, better yet, assign 2 charges to each group member, with a third if they buy a single point in Etherwave (with that point costing 3 Prestige Points, to keep it even), with a 100% proc rate.  I would also suggest increasing the power regen by about double, to make it useful.

Lastly, Ether Balance needs to proc off heals.  Right now it is only off of combat or spell hits.  Healers are the ones who need the most power, especially in Challenge modes.

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Old 11-02-2012, 12:28 PM   #20
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Power reg is fine on Ether Balanace cause we have Manaflow which is a 50% or more power feed to a group.

Ether Balance's only issue is simply that it never goes off anymore, just make it have the 100% proc rate it use to have no reason to make it 6-8 times per minute or even 2 per person since even then it might not all trigger and the best part of the skill was it blowing all the triggers at once, the over damage will be lower than when it had +3 strikes so it wont cause a massive dps spike for the class even if it goes back to 100% proc rate.

Would like to hear from a Dev on this issue.

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Old 11-02-2012, 03:23 PM   #21
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Ratman12345 wrote:

Power reg is fine on Ether Balanace cause we have Manaflow which is a 50% or more power feed to a group.

Have you ever raided on a coercer?

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Old 11-02-2012, 05:52 PM   #22
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AsureaSkie wrote:

Two points related to coercer prestige abilities.

I just got done running several test mobs, including all of Sleeper's Tomb: Unearthed.

The first point is that Mind Control's Mind Jolt would not proc.  I cannot find a single proc of it in the half-instance of Unearthed after I switched to it.

Second, the Ether Balance Coercer Prestige seems of mediocre usefulness at this point in time.

Overall, it does about the same DPS as Mind Control, when MC is at 3 points and without Mind Jolt.  If Mind Jolt is fixed, MC will provide between double and triple the DPS of Ether Balance.

The focused power regen of MC is far more useful when it comes to regen'ing tanks on bosses with power drain melee strikes (and healers on Challenge modes), of which there seem to be quite a few.  Ether Balance's power regen, even with a full 3 points into boosting it, is essentially useless (76 mana on a 2ppm proc, vs 6000-11500 essentially instantaneous on MC for me on tooltips.  Actual procs are much higher due to CB/Pot/Mod).

To compound the issue, there is no real difference between 1 point in Ether Balance and 3 points, as the 2 procs per minute proc rate on Ether Balance often leaves it with charges remaining at expiration.  I would typically see it decay off with 2-3 charges remaining (I did have the +3 procs Prestige talent, Etherwave), and several times saw it decay off with 4-5 procs remaining.  When it was burnt up completely, I never saw it happen within the 15s original reuse time (I do have 100% reuse), so the "decreased reuse time" from additional points is a complete waste once someone starts picking up lvl 90+ gear due to the amount of reuse available.

I would suggest either a massive increase in Ether Balance procs, somewhere on the order of 6-8ppm, or, better yet, assign 2 charges to each group member, with a third if they buy a single point in Etherwave (with that point costing 3 Prestige Points, to keep it even), with a 100% proc rate.  I would also suggest increasing the power regen by about double, to make it useful.

Lastly, Ether Balance needs to proc off heals.  Right now it is only off of combat or spell hits.  Healers are the ones who need the most power, especially in Challenge modes.

Your comment on Mind Jolt not proccing is interesting. I haven't been on beta for a few days now (thank you Sandy) but when I was last on, Mind Jolt was definately proccing damage, close to 25k dps with the 5 triggers. If no points were spent in Mind Jolt however, the proc Calming Assault (name?) was not doing anything. This should have a dps proc as well as a hate loss component, and neither were working for me according to my game logs. I would appreciate if this were looked into.

Ether Balance in its current state is terrible. I honestly can't see any Coercer going down this line. Even if everyone in your group could proc 2 triggers in the 24s it is up you still would not be able to use all 13 triggers, not to mention this ability when maxed out has a 5s recast time. Because of the extremely fast recast time, you will be forced to watch your spell window while playing just so you know when to recast it to get the best bang for your buck. That does not sound fun to me at all. I guess you could just extend the reuse time on it, but that won't make this ability any better so I can't see it being used in its current state. I'm hopeful something will be changed with it though to at least bring it on par with Mind Jolt in terms of DPS and power regeneration. 

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Old 11-02-2012, 06:49 PM   #23
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ZUES wrote:

Ratman12345 wrote:

Power reg is fine on Ether Balanace cause we have Manaflow which is a 50% or more power feed to a group.

Have you ever raided on a coercer?

Yes, I cleared all of PoW as well, and if your able to do PoW without it, you don't need it having a high power regen rate, thus its fine as it is.

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Old 11-03-2012, 12:54 AM   #24
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in my experience they should just change Ether Balance back to the 15 increments going off in 0-1 sec of casting (which gave me around 40-50k contribued dps) with it's new verison does around 4-8k if I am lucky (have not tested the new patch that was today)

Also Mind Control doesn't seem to crit at all unless you have points in Mind Joint (or did so little dps that it was somewhere super below on my parse and I couldn't find it, which seems odd) and with 3 points in Mind Joint, it only does 20-30k dps

both not very useful spells in the current state so I am actually just using the double conversations of 12pot=1cb and then 12 cb=1pot

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Old 11-03-2012, 02:21 AM   #25
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ok, well it seems the new patchs to Ether are good/decent, it's back to it's 40k+ parsing

(ran a group with it, group dps was awful because I was always top of the parse by a good amount of like 100k+ on both of these but anyway)

Like I said, group dps was awful cause I was always the top by an easy 100k, and 2 people (tank being one) died on the boss of Venekor cause he didn't know how to stoneskin/DP himself on red text but it seems they fixed Ether Balance for groups/raids anyway

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Old 11-04-2012, 03:00 AM   #26
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I tested Mind Control again tonight since the recent updates. Prior to Fridays patch, the Mind Jolt bonus damage was the only thing that appeared to be working with this Prestige ability. Tonight, Calming Assault is proccing consistantly, but Mind Jolt (dmg boost) Mind Over Matter (heal) and Mental Infusion (power heal) are not proccing at all. So basically whatever was changed to allow Calming and Enraging Assault to work seems to have broken the 3 bonus choices to enhance this ability.

Ether Balance seems to be working just fine, however I only tested it with my pet and a training dummy. The most I was able to proc the triggers was 6 in the 60s duration solo, which is pretty good, so I can imagine with a full group the 2x per minute proc rate will be just fine.

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Old 11-07-2012, 08:38 PM   #27
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Ether Balance still feels iffy, last night in raid it would sometimes have 4-5 triggers left as it came back up from recast.

Would like to hear from Xelgad on this and also purpose a change to 4.0 times per minute up from 2.0 on Ether Balance, the skill simply does not feel like its reliably triggering, or at the very least up to 3.0 times per minute but still feel 4.0 times per minute would be better.

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Old 11-07-2012, 08:54 PM   #28
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Ratman12345 wrote:

Ether Balance still feels iffy, last night in raid it would sometimes have 4-5 triggers left as it came back up from recast.

Would like to hear from Xelgad on this and also purpose a change to 4.0 times per minute up from 2.0 on Ether Balance, the skill simply does not feel like its reliably triggering, or at the very least up to 3.0 times per minute but still feel 4.0 times per minute would be better.

yes I was talking to you about this last night also and gonna have to agree, Ether Balance is pretty unreliable atm it could go one way or another

just here to support for the change SMILEY

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Old 11-08-2012, 04:10 AM   #29
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After another night of Beta raiding, I have a few more comments related to Coercer Prestige.

First off, Coerced Protection seems underpowered.  Many essences are still 1-shot by incidental AE's.

Second, I'm very happy with Ether Balance's current implementation.  Passive power gen was solid without being overpowered, and damage was quite good.  I did not have a single instance where a charge was remaining after the 30s reuse timer.  I wouldn't complain about an increase in proc rate, maybe to 3 PPM to ensure complete usage for groups that aren't in PoW gear, but it shouldn't need more than 3PPM.

Third, with the alterations to Coerced Intensity (1%/stack instead of 3%, 2 prestige points to purchase instead of 1), I feel it should be changed.  I have three suggestions on how to change it:

1) Leave it as it is, except change the stacking mechanic to apply a stack when certain conditions are met (I was thinking when power feeds or temp buffs are applied by the coercer..."Coerced" Intensity).

2) Reset only for the individual who dies, instead of for the entire group, when someone dies.

3) Basic proc.

My personal preference is option 1, as it permits the buff to be useful on pulls against a boss after a wipe, adds a bit of flavor to the class, and rewards the coercer with DPS bonuses for proper utility usage.  If you went with this option, it could be done as 1/cast and otherwise left the same.   I'd suggest Peace of Mind, Ether Balance/Mind Control, Cannibalize Thoughts, Manaward, Mana Flow, Mana Cloak, etc.  The only technical issue I can see would be if the system recognized one cast of Mana Flow as 6 hits due to being group-wide, and that was not easily corrected.  If that was the case, I'd suggest bringing the cap down to 15% or so.  From a balance perspective, if you did this route, I'd suggest lowering the duration to 1 min instead of 15, resetting the remaining  duration with each added stack, and resetting on deaths.  Dynamic, rewards success, penalizes failure, and doesn't require a huge degree of work on the coercer's end to maintain.

2 would be a good middle ground, IMO.

3 would be rather lame, but easy to balance.

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Old 11-08-2012, 06:43 AM   #30
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PoW gear has nothing to do with being able to get all the procs off, and you have some luck to have them all go off before the 30 second recast timer all the time.

only reason id rather see it at 4 procs per minute is for the instances were the healers are completly unable to toss out damage abilities, but i know that is also rather high for a proc rate, but it really isn't complaining its more of it really does need to be increased 3 might do it, but i'm not sure would have to see it increased to that first then take it from there with more input.

Ive been wondering if Coerced Protection even gave my pet a 30% damage reduction, i see no text on my PE spell or a buff on the pet, but for the most part my pet is staying alive (probably due to the vallon myth earring mostly though).

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