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Old 11-07-2012, 04:29 PM   #31
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Manaburn should be changed if they're intent on doing all these dumb power drains, but really I'd rather they nerfed the crap out of power regen for everyone and removed the power drains.

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Old 11-07-2012, 04:51 PM   #32
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Manaburn is well overdue for some type of revamp. I'd like to say that its just as situational dependant and problematic as Focused Casting so just leave it, (which imo is very true), but truth be told they both need fixing. The power drains on fights is so consistant now that its a joke to say that Manaburn is still viable often. Personally i think adding a component in it during its cast that does something like replenishes 20% of max power every .25 seconds of cast and replenishes 50% returned after cast would make it back to a great ability. Not only does it negate the power drains leading up to it, but it also doesn't criple the wizard in the wake.

Removing the root on focused casting and lifting the spell double atk limit would fix Focused Casting well, on top of help wizards have around what, a 20-25% chance of getting an extra hit off during timewarp. None of these changes would upset any balance towards any class in game, but they would remove so much frustration and brokeness that currently exists.

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:33 PM   #33
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Personally i think adding a component in it during its cast that does something like replenishes 20% of max power every .25 seconds of cast and replenishes 50% returned after cast would make it back to a great ability. Not only does it negate the power drains leading up to it, but it also doesn't criple the wizard in the wake.

At that point you might as well just have it calculate its damage against your Max Power number without consuming power /shrug

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:51 PM   #34
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daray wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Personally i think adding a component in it during its cast that does something like replenishes 20% of max power every .25 seconds of cast and replenishes 50% returned after cast would make it back to a great ability. Not only does it negate the power drains leading up to it, but it also doesn't criple the wizard in the wake.

At that point you might as well just have it calculate its damage against your Max Power number without consuming power /shrug

hey, an easy fix that would be hard to screw up. i'm fine with it.

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Old 11-07-2012, 06:50 PM   #35
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Wizards may have issues, every class has issues, but saying wizards aren't going to be competitive t1 dps even with these issues makes me lol.

No, you’re missing the point.  I’m competitive because I think I’m pretty good at this class, but my performance varies from night to night even though I play pretty consistently.  Why?  Because of other people playing badly, or because of random blind luck.  Wizards are more susceptible to circumstances outside their control than any other class, simply because FB and MB are so fickle and because Blast and Fusion are short-ranged cone spells.  I play a BL too and I can tell you that you guys don’t nearly have as much dependency on fate as wizards do.

 

Enotirab wrote:

Do you really think these are problems everyone doesn't experience. Warlocks need UT just to be competitive; how is that for being buff dependent? We also can be stiffled at key moments (like in the middle of focused casting) and must time things with TW and other temps just like a wizard. All the things you're describing are frustrations that are shared with most if not all classes.

We’re not just talking about buff-dependency; I’ve gotten used to not getting EV (my Illy dies alot after casting Mana Flow, so he doesn’t EV me) or Bolsters (we currently only have defilers).  Buffs are not nearly the whole story.  Warlocks don’t have a high DPS but 10 second spell (FB) that can get absolutely ruined for any number of reasons that are totally out of our control and oh, just inconveniently happens to be 15 seconds longer than TW’s reuse, or a power-draining spell (MB) that can get ruined if your healer lands a cure half a second too late or the encounter itself is one massive power-drain fight, or a ridiculously long-casting, short-ranged, and narrow-cone AOE spell (Fusion) that be ruined by any fellow DPS or tank if they pull an add or fail to lock down an add, or the adds move out of range, or because the game decides there are no targets in range even though you are auto-facing and staring down your target’s buttcrack.  Please go ahead and tell me which of these problems you share with me.

 

daray wrote:

Konc3pt wrote:

The middle endline as it stands is hardly worth the 2 points. I'd personally, as well as others, would like to see fusion, blast of devastation, and firestorm changed into targeted AE's with this endline (like E'ci). There's really no reason for having sorcs play with a scout mentality just to compete.

Yeah, I backed this before too.

A change like this obviously won't be a direct dps increase for the class (for those wizards that can cope with pretending to be scouts), but what it does do, is offer rather desirable flexibility. It would certainly help close the gap between the better wizards and those who struggle more (and there is quite a gap resulting from these positioning requirements).

I imagine warlocks would probably appreciate a similar endline too.

EDIT:

Actually, since you are intent on making the middle-bottom (endline) some kind of group benefit for all classes, I would be equally happy with the above replacing "Arcane Surge", such that:

·         Rank 1 = Turns Firestorm into a (35m range) targeted blue AE (same radius)

·         Rank 2 = Turns Blast of Devastation into a (35m range) targeted blue AE (same radius)

·         Rank 3 = Turns Fusion into a (35m range) targeted blue AE

* Perhaps even granted as alternate abilities sharing the same cooldown.

 

(would also be cool to have the base Fusion spell changed to a 10m radius / 180 degree frontal just because those restrictions are now way out of line compared to when it was first introduced)

 

+1.

 

 

daray wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Personally i think adding a component in it during its cast that does something like replenishes 20% of max power every .25 seconds of cast and replenishes 50% returned after cast would make it back to a great ability. Not only does it negate the power drains leading up to it, but it also doesn't criple the wizard in the wake.

At that point you might as well just have it calculate its damage against your Max Power number without consuming power /shrug

 

Manaburn needs to drain mana.  I mean that’s the point of this spell: you trade power for damage.  Making it power-free would just be too much of a copout and would render both the name and original intent of this spell meaningless.  What the devs should do instead is give us greater ability to regen power ourselves.  I pretty much cast Harvest Mana immediately after every MB, and let the Illy make up the rest (assuming he doesn’t die from casting Mana Flow).  In most encounters this lets me start casting other spells right away without having to worry about whether I have regenned enough power after a MB to cast any given spell.  Harvest Mana should be beefed up to deliver 10 times more power than what we get from it now; in exchange its reuse could be nerfed to match the reuse of MB.  Reduce the base casting speed of Mana Intromission and Vital Transfer and beef up their effects.  I don’t mind having to regen power, but we DEFINITELY need to be able to do it much faster than we are able to do so currently with all the ridiculously stupid power drain encounters.

 

 

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Old 11-07-2012, 08:05 PM   #36
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daray wrote:

EDIT:

Actually, since you are intent on making the middle-bottom (endline) some kind of group benefit for all classes, I would be equally happy with the above replacing "Arcane Surge", such that:

  • Rank 1 = Turns Firestorm into a (35m range) targeted blue AE (same radius)
  • Rank 2 = Turns Blast of Devastation into a (35m range) targeted blue AE (same radius)
  • Rank 3 = Turns Fusion into a (35m range) targeted blue AE

* Perhaps even granted as alternate abilities sharing the same cooldown.

(would also be cool to have the base Fusion spell changed to a 10m radius / 180 degree frontal just because those restrictions are now way out of line compared to when it was first introduced)

To expand on this idea, could give us a buff to place on a tank that allows our blue AE's to hit in a 10 ~ 15m radius of said tank. It would eliminate all those times when you're mid cast of fusion, blast of devastation, etc and the tank randomly decides to move away, dragging the mobs just outside of your range.

Instead of Fire Chains or whatever it's called, you could allow it to modify furnace of ro to make it a "you hit any mobs standing in it x% harder" type of thing.

Ps. Mystical Heat should also reduce the base cast time of manaburn. Thanks.

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Old 11-07-2012, 08:14 PM   #37
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Mysterre wrote:

Enotirab wrote:

Do you really think these are problems everyone doesn't experience. Warlocks need UT just to be competitive; how is that for being buff dependent? We also can be stiffled at key moments (like in the middle of focused casting) and must time things with TW and other temps just like a wizard. All the things you're describing are frustrations that are shared with most if not all classes.

We’re not just talking about buff-dependency; I’ve gotten used to not getting EV (my Illy dies alot after casting Mana Flow, so he doesn’t EV me) or Bolsters (we currently only have defilers).  Buffs are not nearly the whole story.  Warlocks don’t have a high DPS but 10 second spell (FB) that can get absolutely ruined for any number of reasons that are totally out of our control and oh, just inconveniently happens to be 15 seconds longer than TW’s reuse, or a power-draining spell (MB) that can get ruined if your healer lands a cure half a second too late or the encounter itself is one massive power-drain fight, or a ridiculously long-casting, short-ranged, and narrow-cone AOE spell (Fusion) that be ruined by any fellow DPS or tank if they pull an add or fail to lock down an add, or the adds move out of range, or because the game decides there are no targets in range even though you are auto-facing and staring down your target’s buttcrack.  Please go ahead and tell me which of these problems you share with me.

You're right, you dont have near the buff dependency warlocks have, and EV isn't comparable to ut, especially given thats a buff for us also, so we suffer that too, plus the troub deaths when they dont joust. As far as the 10 second time window, it's called Focused casting, every single thing that can go wrong with FB can go wrong with that, and more, our ability roots us, plus we have to compete with the timewarp reseting timers, and our own rotations. Get over yourself. Both of our classes have problems, they both need to be fixed. I'm very openly asking for help on the wizards half on abilities i think need modifcation, but really, wizards are the least dependant sorc atm, and best overall mage in game atm, and will be after this update as things stand. chill.

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Old 11-07-2012, 08:37 PM   #38
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Mysterre wrote:

Enotirab wrote:

Do you really think these are problems everyone doesn't experience. Warlocks need UT just to be competitive; how is that for being buff dependent? We also can be stiffled at key moments (like in the middle of focused casting) and must time things with TW and other temps just like a wizard. All the things you're describing are frustrations that are shared with most if not all classes.

We’re not just talking about buff-dependency; I’ve gotten used to not getting EV (my Illy dies alot after casting Mana Flow, so he doesn’t EV me) or Bolsters (we currently only have defilers).  Buffs are not nearly the whole story.  Warlocks don’t have a high DPS but 10 second spell (FB) that can get absolutely ruined for any number of reasons that are totally out of our control and oh, just inconveniently happens to be 15 seconds longer than TW’s reuse, or a power-draining spell (MB) that can get ruined if your healer lands a cure half a second too late or the encounter itself is one massive power-drain fight, or a ridiculously long-casting, short-ranged, and narrow-cone AOE spell (Fusion) that be ruined by any fellow DPS or tank if they pull an add or fail to lock down an add, or the adds move out of range, or because the game decides there are no targets in range even though you are auto-facing and staring down your target’s buttcrack.  Please go ahead and tell me which of these problems you share with me.

You're right, you dont have near the buff dependency warlocks have, and EV isn't comparable to ut, especially given thats a buff for us also, so we suffer that too, plus the troub deaths when they dont joust. As far as the 10 second time window, it's called Focused casting, every single thing that can go wrong with FB can go wrong with that, and more, our ability roots us, plus we have to compete with the timewarp reseting timers, and our own rotations. Get over yourself. Both of our classes have problems, they both need to be fixed. I'm very openly asking for help on the wizards half on abilities i think need modifcation, but really, wizards are the least dependant sorc atm, and best overall mage in game atm, and will be after this update as things stand. chill.

i think you didnt even read anything he posted. warlocks are rooted? big deal. everyone casting isnt moving.if fb is on mob and i have to move its the same thing as fc being canceled. it doesnt do dmg. the end.im not saying warlocks need nothing but i am saying the last sentence of oyurs is utter bs.the least dependant sorc? the best overall mage? on paper maybe - due to the reasons he just postedwich you decided to ignore just to post the usual "no warlock is worse than wizard" stuff where your onlypoint is you are rooted when casting fc ( lol ) and the troub might die ( as we all know illus are invincible.. )

what about max range ( no fusion ) and the mana drain in endcontent? warlock suffer the same problems? i fail to see whereyou reasoned that.

how about you get over yourself?

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Old 11-07-2012, 08:57 PM   #39
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disappointed wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Mysterre wrote:

Enotirab wrote:

Do you really think these are problems everyone doesn't experience. Warlocks need UT just to be competitive; how is that for being buff dependent? We also can be stiffled at key moments (like in the middle of focused casting) and must time things with TW and other temps just like a wizard. All the things you're describing are frustrations that are shared with most if not all classes.

We’re not just talking about buff-dependency; I’ve gotten used to not getting EV (my Illy dies alot after casting Mana Flow, so he doesn’t EV me) or Bolsters (we currently only have defilers).  Buffs are not nearly the whole story.  Warlocks don’t have a high DPS but 10 second spell (FB) that can get absolutely ruined for any number of reasons that are totally out of our control and oh, just inconveniently happens to be 15 seconds longer than TW’s reuse, or a power-draining spell (MB) that can get ruined if your healer lands a cure half a second too late or the encounter itself is one massive power-drain fight, or a ridiculously long-casting, short-ranged, and narrow-cone AOE spell (Fusion) that be ruined by any fellow DPS or tank if they pull an add or fail to lock down an add, or the adds move out of range, or because the game decides there are no targets in range even though you are auto-facing and staring down your target’s buttcrack.  Please go ahead and tell me which of these problems you share with me.

You're right, you dont have near the buff dependency warlocks have, and EV isn't comparable to ut, especially given thats a buff for us also, so we suffer that too, plus the troub deaths when they dont joust. As far as the 10 second time window, it's called Focused casting, every single thing that can go wrong with FB can go wrong with that, and more, our ability roots us, plus we have to compete with the timewarp reseting timers, and our own rotations. Get over yourself. Both of our classes have problems, they both need to be fixed. I'm very openly asking for help on the wizards half on abilities i think need modifcation, but really, wizards are the least dependant sorc atm, and best overall mage in game atm, and will be after this update as things stand. chill.

i think you didnt even read anything he posted. warlocks are rooted? big deal. everyone casting isnt moving.if fb is on mob and i have to move its the same thing as fc being canceled. it doesnt do dmg. the end.im not saying warlocks need nothing but i am saying the last sentence of oyurs is utter bs.the least dependant sorc? the best overall mage? on paper maybe - due to the reasons he just postedwich you decided to ignore just to post the usual "no warlock is worse than wizard" stuff where your onlypoint is you are rooted when casting fc ( lol ) and the troub might die ( as we all know illus are invincible.. )

what about max range ( no fusion ) and the mana drain in endcontent? warlock suffer the same problems? i fail to see whereyou reasoned that.

how about you get over yourself?

Look, I play / raid both of these classes and can parse on them both similarly.

1.  Feiry blast and Focus casting both suck about equally when you get stifled or disrupted. 

2.  Manaburn + power drains is lame, and does need to be fixed. No argument there.

3.  Locks also need to be in to do decent damage, especially in AE fights: Cataclysm, Rift (if lots of mobs), Thunderclap.  No sorcerer enjoys having to fight at ranged as it hurts of all. 

4.  Locks have to time our timewarps as well, especially when dealing with Focused Casting.

5.  Being rooted with FC can absolutely suck if you're about to unload some AE dps and the tank moves... just like if your'e casting fusion or are in the middle of a feiryblast.

Bottom line is that neither class is easy and both have issues.  This argument is as old as eq2 and we might not see eye to eye on it, but lets try move away from this ****ing contest as it is only serving to pull this thread off topic and it isn't helping us get what we want.  No one here wants to see either class get nerfed, we all want to be buffed and balanced in a competitive way.  If we absoultely must continue having the "which class needs the most love cause this other class is roflcopter easy" discussion, lets do so in a different thread.

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Old 11-07-2012, 09:53 PM   #40
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Mysterre wrote:

We’re not just talking about buff-dependency; I’ve gotten used to not getting EV (my Illy dies alot after casting Mana Flow, so he doesn’t EV me) or Bolsters (we currently only have defilers).  Buffs are not nearly the whole story.  Warlocks don’t have a high DPS but 10 second spell (FB) that can get absolutely ruined for any number of reasons that are totally out of our control and oh, just inconveniently happens to be 15 seconds longer than TW’s reuse, or a power-draining spell (MB) that can get ruined if your healer lands a cure half a second too late or the encounter itself is one massive power-drain fight, or a ridiculously long-casting, short-ranged, and narrow-cone AOE spell (Fusion) that be ruined by any fellow DPS or tank if they pull an add or fail to lock down an add, or the adds move out of range, or because the game decides there are no targets in range even though you are auto-facing and staring down your target’s buttcrack.  Please go ahead and tell me which of these problems you share with me.

You're right, you dont have near the buff dependency warlocks have, and EV isn't comparable to ut, especially given thats a buff for us also, so we suffer that too, plus the troub deaths when they dont joust. As far as the 10 second time window, it's called Focused casting, every single thing that can go wrong with FB can go wrong with that, and more, our ability roots us, plus we have to compete with the timewarp reseting timers, and our own rotations. Get over yourself. Both of our classes have problems, they both need to be fixed. I'm very openly asking for help on the wizards half on abilities i think need modifcation, but really, wizards are the least dependant sorc atm, and best overall mage in game atm, and will be after this update as things stand. chill.

I don't even know why you are using EV as some kind of argument.  Give up already.  The rest of it I don't really see anything specific.  No doubt warlocks have some of the same kinds of problems wizards do, but your post does nothing to convince me that warlocks are as much or more dependent on random chance for their DPS as wizards are.  Do you have a Fusion spell that's bugged, short-ranged, and cone-shaped that if we can't cast successfully almost certainly means our parse tanks?  Do you have a power-drain spell that basically cannot be cast at all if it's a powerdrain fight or your healer is just a little bit too slow with a cure?  As for FB's and Focused Casting, anything that screws up one of our spells has a much greater impact than for warlocks because our spells take ridiculously long to cast and if we get stopped towards the end of a cast that could be almost 2.5 seconds of basically not casting anything at all. 2 seconds for E'Ci and IC, 1.5 seconds for Rays.  Interrupting/stunning/stifling any of these spells is a major hit on DPS.

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Old 11-07-2012, 10:13 PM   #41
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Not sure if we will see any future updates to our prestige, but I guess I'll update the list of issues as I currently see them. Removed some, updated others, added new.

Right Side

  • Frozen Rain and Frozen Detonation consuming all Frozen Solid increments at *any* increment number. The "Consumes all increments of Frozen Solid" needs to occur only when we are dealing the 60 increment hit, otherwise the whole thing isn't logical and doesn't play well.
  • An alternative is for each increment of Frozen Solid to increase the damage of Rain/Detonation in a linear fashion from min hit to max potential hit. That's really the only other way to make sense of full increment consumption.
  • Frozen Detonation needs to be a targeted blue AE imo (like E'ci, Concussive Blast, etc).

  • I still think we need to be seeing Frozen Solid proc a lot more vs single target content, just because of the way AE content is typically implemented in this game (small windows of low-hp swarm-type adds). In other words trade the proc chance being based on "per target hit" to "per spell cast" and significantly boost the percentage chance per rank.
  • Frozen Solid does not proc off instant-cast damage spells (i.e. Concussive Blast). Working as intended with regards to proc mechanics I guess, but still a shame.
  • Velium Chill now reduces the cast time on two spell options that people just won't be all that thrilled about, because, bottom line, these choices arent really going to be making much of a practical difference. You need to pick 1 or 2 appealing "high priority" choices here (and this goes for both sorcerers), especially if we need Frozen Solid at 60 increments to do so. Fusion was already a more interesting choice, partly due to the already restrictive nature of the spell.
  • As Arabel pointed out in the warlock thread, the way the Velium Chill slot works has the potential to create rather clunky gameplay with all the potential waiting around for things. Ideally we want the combat to flow naturally and fluidly. Also is there any reason that the cast time isn't being recalculated with each increment gain - or at least in multiples of 6? (since that is what we gain per fully enhanced proc)

  • Change Frozen Solid to be a passive buff so that increments can be maintained between fights so as not to disadvantage the slower guilds (or at the very least have Frozen Solid last a lot longer). Plus doing so would stop the icon being pushed off my maintained window when it refreshes.
  • Display the number of increments on that Frozen Solid buff icon in the maintained window. As it is now, the increments only show in the effects window, and that is not sufficient to track our progress.

Left Side

  • Frozen Burst is better than it was, but you are still using the wrong spell. Change it to Ball of Fire, remove the % health thresholds for the extra hits (then rebalance if needed by reducing the number of extra hits, or the damage of the extra hits). Using Ball of Fire for 'Frozen Burst' would also tie in a lot better with 'Disintegrating Fire'.
  • I'd prefer to see an increase in the duration of the Incineration proc if you insist on allowing Incineration to only trigger off heat-based spells (from 16s to closer to 30s)
  • Mystical Heat should also reduce the base Manaburn cast time (currently 6s), as well as the recast. It would benefit from restoring a fixed percentage amount of power after using Manaburn, rather than the tiny power over time amount it is doing now.
  • Fire Chains' damage is pretty low, given it isn't even a 100% proc (5.0 times per minute off spell hits / combat arts). With all 3 ranks, it was averaging at around 40k per hit. At my estimate, this proc will only come in at around 3k extdps per group member (I guess potentially double that for pet classes).
  • Hellfire is still decent. Maybe could use a very slighly bump in the damage after sitting here and parsing it for a bit, but that is dependent on how the rest of the tree ends up looking.
  • Display the number of increments on that Icineration buff icon in the maintained window, so we can also track it!

Middle Stuff:

  • On the whole, both Arcane Surge and Arcane Tyrant need significant increases to their damage (if we really are just going to be stuck with more rather unimaginative procs). Would rather see something unique and interesting for both. Just adding weak damage procs to stuff seems to hint at a creative block.
  • There have been quite a few suggestions in this thread regarding options for these 2 that don't strictly add dps, but do improve class flexibility (e.g. Converting blues to targeted AEs). I won't go into an exhaustive list though.

Display:

  • Sorry to go on about this, but the increment tracking / information needs to be easily accessible to people.
  • Incineration still randomly splits the initial hit number into 2 entries (one fixed, one with a spread).
  • Since you changed Ro's power to act as a seperate multiplier instead of potency, you probably should include "before modifications" in the tooltip.
  • Mystical Heat appears to add Mystical Heal to Incineration - not sure if that was just a typo.
  • Fire Chains has pretty weird proc condition wording (On a hostile spell hit ... 5.0 times per minute ... This ability can trigger on combat arts as well).
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:19 PM   #42
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Mysterre wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Mysterre wrote:

We’re not just talking about buff-dependency; I’ve gotten used to not getting EV (my Illy dies alot after casting Mana Flow, so he doesn’t EV me) or Bolsters (we currently only have defilers).  Buffs are not nearly the whole story.  Warlocks don’t have a high DPS but 10 second spell (FB) that can get absolutely ruined for any number of reasons that are totally out of our control and oh, just inconveniently happens to be 15 seconds longer than TW’s reuse, or a power-draining spell (MB) that can get ruined if your healer lands a cure half a second too late or the encounter itself is one massive power-drain fight, or a ridiculously long-casting, short-ranged, and narrow-cone AOE spell (Fusion) that be ruined by any fellow DPS or tank if they pull an add or fail to lock down an add, or the adds move out of range, or because the game decides there are no targets in range even though you are auto-facing and staring down your target’s buttcrack.  Please go ahead and tell me which of these problems you share with me.

You're right, you dont have near the buff dependency warlocks have, and EV isn't comparable to ut, especially given thats a buff for us also, so we suffer that too, plus the troub deaths when they dont joust. As far as the 10 second time window, it's called Focused casting, every single thing that can go wrong with FB can go wrong with that, and more, our ability roots us, plus we have to compete with the timewarp reseting timers, and our own rotations. Get over yourself. Both of our classes have problems, they both need to be fixed. I'm very openly asking for help on the wizards half on abilities i think need modifcation, but really, wizards are the least dependant sorc atm, and best overall mage in game atm, and will be after this update as things stand. chill.

I don't even know why you are using EV as some kind of argument.  Give up already.  The rest of it I don't really see anything specific.  No doubt warlocks have some of the same kinds of problems wizards do, but your post does nothing to convince me that warlocks are as much or more dependent on random chance for their DPS as wizards are.  Do you have a Fusion spell that's bugged, short-ranged, and cone-shaped that if we can't cast successfully almost certainly means our parse tanks?  Do you have a power-drain spell that basically cannot be cast at all if it's a powerdrain fight or your healer is just a little bit too slow with a cure?  As for FB's and Focused Casting, anything that screws up one of our spells has a much greater impact than for warlocks because our spells take ridiculously long to cast and if we get stopped towards the end of a cast that could be almost 2.5 seconds of basically not casting anything at all. 2 seconds for E'Ci and IC, 1.5 seconds for Rays.  Interrupting/stunning/stifling any of these spells is a major hit on DPS.

i didn't use EV as an arguemnet you rere, i told you not to try to use it in yours which you did. im not even gonna continue on beyond that. as i said, we both have issues that need fixing, my point was dont give the woe is me arguement, because wizards have no woe is my box stand on for any credibility. Address your problems, because you DO have them, but dont discount others problems like you are trying to do, because you are woefully wrong.

edit* although i said i wouldn't address anything else, i suppose i will. On the give it up, the vast majority of my posts in this thread, has been to try to help address problems i view with wizards. I have one, i've raided on it, i get it. So give what up exactly? look at my posts. I've asked for help on fusion on manaburn and brought up the fact every class has issues and that soe needs to start addressing them. I have asked NOTHING to be taken away. so really, give what up? and as a side note, we share the same comparisoned cast/reuse timers. really, learn about classes beyond yours.

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Old 11-07-2012, 11:33 PM   #43
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You two done yet?

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Old 11-07-2012, 11:38 PM   #44
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i suppose, but can i get a reach around? anyways, sorry i sidetracked ur thread daray. your posts are alarmingly accurate and critical. i just hope xelgad listens to the ongoing issues that have been brought up by you, koncept and others. same goes for my warlocks with myself silp and others. it feels like every expac we're harping on the same things half the time and its just getting old.

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:46 AM   #45
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I am no longer playing my wizzy so often, sorry if i were wrong.

It seems to me that wizard class depends on utility classes or other ppl's support too much.

Wizard can be barely competitive as T1 DPS only when you can get everything/every utility you want.

Wizard needs troubador illusionist inquisitor or fury in group so badly,

and maybe you want your raid have 2 coercers(you want mana flow and elemental debuffs) and 2 birgands(you want elemental debuffs!).

Wizard class, offering almost no utilitis but ice lash, depending on other ppl's support too much, can be barely competitive to T1 DPS classes at his best.

even warlock can offer small utilities you cannot ignore.

Dark Siphoning can be helpful when your raid doesnt have enough coercers

or Your raid used Volatility to kill Eirreen the Broken.

it will be nice if wizard class can be more independent from utility/support.

the fact that not having illy in group simply makes wizzy behind other T1 DPS is not very fun.

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Old 11-08-2012, 06:32 AM   #46
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[email protected]_old wrote:

i didn't use EV as an arguemnet you rere, i told you not to try to use it in yours which you did. im not even gonna continue on beyond that. as i said, we both have issues that need fixing, my point was dont give the woe is me arguement, because wizards have no woe is my box stand on for any credibility. Address your problems, because you DO have them, but dont discount others problems like you are trying to do, because you are woefully wrong.

Get a clue, man.  I didn't use EV as an argument, only as an example of a buff that for me isn't an issue and isn't really what I've been talking about.  You were the one who turned into an 'argument' by saying Warlocks can get it too.  Yeah, and?  Your point may be the don't-give-the-woe-is-me argument, but yet you have utterly failed to respond to the unique wizard issues I have pointed out that warlocks don't share which IMO makes wizards more vulnerable to raid randomness, which in your insecure mind somehow translates into discounting others' "problems".  You can have all the problems you want, sport.  Just run along back to your own warlock thread and get it on over there.  Here we are talking about wizards.

And speaking of wizards, basically the bottom line for me is that when it didn't matter, having more dependency on chance and other players' skill to perform at the top, wasn't as much of an issue.  I think it's pretty clear every wizard in here has been saying that now it DOES matter.  Every little bit matters now.  That's fine, I can compete.  But give me the ability to be master of my own fate so that I stand or fall on my own skills, not on outdated and bugged mechanics, the sheer randomness of raid events, or the good or bad performances of the rest of the raid members.  These things apply to all classes to various extents, but I think all those things apply to wizards more than any other class.  The prestige choices we are being offered seem to be minimal, and even these minimal choices are being nerfed, and this is all besides the fact that they do not address the underlying problems with the wizard class.

Along these lines, mitigating or eliminating the strict requirements for positioning/facing and vastly improving self mana regen would in and of themselves do absolutely nothing to increase our maximum damage for any given spell, but they would certainly allow us to use our biggest hitters to maximum efficiency and help us be more independent of chance or the goodness/badness of others.

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:04 AM   #47
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Wizards have thier problems sure, so do warlocks. We aint gettin the love either.

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:22 AM   #48
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daray wrote:

Konc3pt wrote:

The middle endline as it stands is hardly worth the 2 points. I'd personally, as well as others, would like to see fusion, blast of devastation, and firestorm changed into targeted AE's with this endline (like E'ci). There's really no reason for having sorcs play with a scout mentality just to compete.

Yeah, I backed this before too.

A change like this obviously won't be a direct dps increase for the class (for those wizards that can cope with pretending to be scouts), but what it does do, is offer rather desirable flexibility. It would certainly help close the gap between the better wizards and those who struggle more (and there is quite a gap resulting from these positioning requirements).

I imagine warlocks would probably appreciate a similar endline too.

EDIT:

Actually, since you are intent on making the middle-bottom (endline) some kind of group benefit for all classes, I would be equally happy with the above replacing "Arcane Surge", such that:

  • Rank 1 = Turns Firestorm into a (35m range) targeted blue AE (same radius)
  • Rank 2 = Turns Blast of Devastation into a (35m range) targeted blue AE (same radius)
  • Rank 3 = Turns Fusion into a (35m range) targeted blue AE

* Perhaps even granted as alternate abilities sharing the same cooldown.

(would also be cool to have the base Fusion spell changed to a 10m radius / 180 degree frontal just because those restrictions are now way out of line compared to when it was first introduced)

+2

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Old 11-09-2012, 11:18 AM   #49
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I doubt much more can be done at this point but here are some last ditch suggestions that I hope would be easy to do...

  • Loose the %HP based differences off of Flames of Velious and just make it do the 75% level damage straight up
  • Double the Ball of Fire chance to reset Rays of Disintigration
  • Let Incinerate trigger off of Fireshape modified spells
  • Decrease the casting time on Manaburn and keep the lowered reuse time, increase the mana return to a flat 20%/40%/60% per prestige point
  • Double the damage on Hellfire
  • Double the damage on Incineration
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:10 PM   #50
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daray wrote:

Not sure if we will see any future updates to our prestige, but I guess I'll update the list of issues as I currently see them. Removed some, updated others, added new.

Right Side

  • Frozen Rain and Frozen Detonation consuming all Frozen Solid increments at *any* increment number. The "Consumes all increments of Frozen Solid" needs to occur only when we are dealing the 60 increment hit, otherwise the whole thing isn't logical and doesn't play well.
  • An alternative is for each increment of Frozen Solid to increase the damage of Rain/Detonation in a linear fashion from min hit to max potential hit. That's really the only other way to make sense of full increment consumption.
  • Frozen Detonation needs to be a targeted blue AE imo (like E'ci, Concussive Blast, etc).

  • I still think we need to be seeing Frozen Solid proc a lot more vs single target content, just because of the way AE content is typically implemented in this game (small windows of low-hp swarm-type adds). In other words trade the proc chance being based on "per target hit" to "per spell cast" and significantly boost the percentage chance per rank.
  • Frozen Solid does not proc off instant-cast damage spells (i.e. Concussive Blast). Working as intended with regards to proc mechanics I guess, but still a shame.
  • Velium Chill now reduces the cast time on two spell options that people just won't be all that thrilled about, because, bottom line, these choices arent really going to be making much of a practical difference. You need to pick 1 or 2 appealing "high priority" choices here (and this goes for both sorcerers), especially if we need Frozen Solid at 60 increments to do so. Fusion was already a more interesting choice, partly due to the already restrictive nature of the spell.
  • As Arabel pointed out in the warlock thread, the way the Velium Chill slot works has the potential to create rather clunky gameplay with all the potential waiting around for things. Ideally we want the combat to flow naturally and fluidly. Also is there any reason that the cast time isn't being recalculated with each increment gain - or at least in multiples of 6? (since that is what we gain per fully enhanced proc)

  • Change Frozen Solid to be a passive buff so that increments can be maintained between fights so as not to disadvantage the slower guilds (or at the very least have Frozen Solid last a lot longer). Plus doing so would stop the icon being pushed off my maintained window when it refreshes.
  • Display the number of increments on that Frozen Solid buff icon in the maintained window. As it is now, the increments only show in the effects window, and that is not sufficient to track our progress.

Left Side

  • Frozen Burst is better than it was, but you are still using the wrong spell. Change it to Ball of Fire, remove the % health thresholds for the extra hits (then rebalance if needed by reducing the number of extra hits, or the damage of the extra hits). Using Ball of Fire for 'Frozen Burst' would also tie in a lot better with 'Disintegrating Fire'.
  • I'd prefer to see an increase in the duration of the Incineration proc if you insist on allowing Incineration to only trigger off heat-based spells (from 16s to closer to 30s)
  • Mystical Heat should also reduce the base Manaburn cast time (currently 6s), as well as the recast. It would benefit from restoring a fixed percentage amount of power after using Manaburn, rather than the tiny power over time amount it is doing now.
  • Fire Chains' damage is pretty low, given it isn't even a 100% proc (5.0 times per minute off spell hits / combat arts). With all 3 ranks, it was averaging at around 40k per hit. At my estimate, this proc will only come in at around 3k extdps per group member (I guess potentially double that for pet classes).
  • Hellfire is still decent. Maybe could use a very slighly bump in the damage after sitting here and parsing it for a bit, but that is dependent on how the rest of the tree ends up looking.
  • Display the number of increments on that Icineration buff icon in the maintained window, so we can also track it!

Middle Stuff:

  • On the whole, both Arcane Surge and Arcane Tyrant need significant increases to their damage (if we really are just going to be stuck with more rather unimaginative procs). Would rather see something unique and interesting for both. Just adding weak damage procs to stuff seems to hint at a creative block.
  • There have been quite a few suggestions in this thread regarding options for these 2 that don't strictly add dps, but do improve class flexibility (e.g. Converting blues to targeted AEs). I won't go into an exhaustive list though.

Display:

  • Sorry to go on about this, but the increment tracking / information needs to be easily accessible to people.
  • Incineration still randomly splits the initial hit number into 2 entries (one fixed, one with a spread).
  • Since you changed Ro's power to act as a seperate multiplier instead of potency, you probably should include "before modifications" in the tooltip.
  • Mystical Heat appears to add Mystical Heal to Incineration - not sure if that was just a typo.
  • Fire Chains has pretty weird proc condition wording (On a hostile spell hit ... 5.0 times per minute ... This ability can trigger on combat arts as well).

I completely agree with everything Daray has posted. He is fair and reasonable. He lists everything in an easy to understand, logical fashion and give excellent detail on how to fix the problems there are.

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Old 11-09-2012, 08:09 PM   #51
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Positive changes today, but is that it?

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Old 11-09-2012, 08:16 PM   #52
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I guess today's patch notes addressed like one and a half out of the 22 things in my list (well that list also being drawn from other people's comments too).While a move in the right direction, it leaves so many issues unresolved, some of them quite important. SMILEYWish we could combine the top right with the bottom left (of the linked portions). A big problem, is that the bottom right just doesn't translate into good or logical gameplay (for reasons already stated), while the top left is out of whack with the spell chosen for Frozen Burst. And I suppose lets just pretend the middle doesn't exist.

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Old 11-09-2012, 09:48 PM   #53
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And as a further thought on the matter (especially given the nature of the new content), if prestige remain as they are, wizards will be forced into one of 2 choices (largely due to how the new right side additions currently function) ...

  • Going down both sides (to the dual conversion points) and then dropping the excess 5 points into the left side.
  • Or reluctantly going down the left side because they don't want to waste an additional 6 points in the first line to do the above.

That's a disappointing position to be in.

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Old 11-10-2012, 11:51 PM   #54
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Btw I think some of the dps being generated by Incineration should probably be moved from Incineration to Hellfire to better motivate people to move down the left line to the end.

From a 8 min combat sample against a training dummy, I had them as follows (hitting Hellfire whenever it was up):

  • Incineration: 43,905 EXTDPS
  • Hellfire:         31,401 EXTDPS

I'd probably suggest a reduction to Incineration's damage by around 50% and an increase to Hellfire's damage by about 75%. That would still put the overall gains at the same point, but instead weight the damage towards the end of the tree (with Hellfire).

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