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Old 02-16-2006, 03:23 AM   #1
Sir Alex

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I have been reading a post on the combat disscussion thread  and some rangers are asking for a summoner nerf as it looks like there class is getting a nerf in DPS and they are stating that ours and conj dps is way to high, what do you guys think are we overpowered or are we were we should be.

Message Edited by Sir Alex on 02-15-200602:24 PM

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Old 02-16-2006, 03:50 AM   #2
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Necromancers aren't overpowered.  They, however, are doing way more damage than a tier 2 class should.  The same goes for Conjurors.  They aren't really overwhelmingly powerful, but they do need their damage reduced to its intended level.
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Old 02-16-2006, 03:56 AM   #3
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Whining in this game is very common. Remember this, we did get nerfed - in the last patch. Dumbfire pets die so often now that they are useless for raids. This represents about a 100-150 dps nerf. The one thing I do and wish everyone would do is I mind my own business. I don't complain that rangers can out dps us, which they can sometimes, or that warlock AEs are "over powered" If I want a fix, and lord knows we need several, I concentrate on our class. What we need. Pointing fingures and calling names is childish. Measure your class based on your class, not others.

Do we have high dps, sure. Is it appropriate, you bet! We wear dresses and give up any ability to take a hit as a tradeoff for our damage. I have 3,300 hp and at t6 with a mitigation of like 1,000 that doesn't mean much. Do I complain? Of course not, I chose to be weak phsically to have a high damage rating. All mages deserve to be tops in their specialty.

Sorcerers and summoners should be equal or nearly. If your going to give summoners more utility then sure, take a little dps. Chanters of course trade dps for major utility. I'm in no way saying any classes are doing what they should be doing because someone will always step up and say "we're broke you idiot." You can't please everyone and SOE knows this.

Assins and rangers have a limited tanking ability. I don't know what it is but they chose to have better armor than mages. In the case of assins, they got skrewed. They have the armor and need to because they have to get in close to do damage (little to no ranged). But they aren't doing the right damage as far as I've heard. Rangers have the best of both worlds, high damage and armor. Why do they need the armor if they are all ranged I don't know. I'm not a ranger. But presumably, if a ranger's damage is all from ranged attacks, like sorcerers, and they want armor, then they should lose dps or utility or something. Summoners are a half-and-half thing because we do litterally half our dps from far away and half from up close. We take the risk of the AE on our pets and have good ranged but no armor. And I will argue with anyone that claims pets don't die in raids. That 10 second recast time is murder on your dps. Most of the time, I go petless.

Do we deserve a dps nerf because someone else is getting it? I'm truly sorry to hear of any class getting "adjusted" but every time we get nerfed unjustly I never point fingures and say "do it to them too." Unfortunately this game is populated with a lot of 20-year-olds and older teens that have not learned what maturity is about yet. They know how to flame, and i've certainly opened the door for them with this post. So lets watch the fun.

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Old 02-16-2006, 04:07 AM   #4
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Rangers are -by far- the most overpowered class in the game. Moorguard already stated that what they're doing is fixing a bug, not nerfing. Rangers know that probally 50%+ of their damage comes from procs. A few weeks ago ( maybe months? ) Lockeye posted that procs were doing too much damage. Thats the reason why lich was nerfed. Thats the reason nearly every proc across the board was cut down. Obviously they still feel like procs are doing too much damage.
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Old 02-16-2006, 04:07 AM   #5
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"Do we have high dps, sure. Is it appropriate, you bet!"
 
According to the damage tiers you're not supposed to be equal or above Sorcerers.  It isn't appropriate, it's just an example of poor execution on SOEs part.
 
"We wear dresses and give up any ability to take a hit as a tradeoff for our damage. I have 3,300 hp and at t6 with a mitigation of like 1,000 that doesn't mean much."
 
So do Sorcerers.  But, they do not have pets to keep the aggro off of them or provide hands off damage.  If survivability is a factor you are far better off than a Sorcerer.  It has already been stated by the devs that Summoners are intended to be tier 2.  They should not be consistently rivaling and going beyond tier 1 damage.
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Old 02-16-2006, 04:09 AM   #6
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Well everyone talks about us being a teir 2 dps class but i have failed to see this dps tree that puts wizards and scout classes on top and everyone else under them, is there an official sony dps teir tree or is this made up by players who want there class to be on top, or who think there class should be on top. Changes or not i love my necro and have since day 1 i rolled her but i dont like others asking that we take a nerf because there class is being adjusted. For example Lich was reduced 50% on the proc due to some  wizards saying we were out damageing them now some are saying we are still out damageing them. As far as dumbfire pets taking AOE damage that should be a giving that anything with in the range of an AOE should take damage. Also people that dont play pet classes really shouldnt comment on how powerful we are until they have walked our path.
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Old 02-16-2006, 04:15 AM   #7
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Boys and girls please calm down.  I have seen nothing yet stating we will get nerfed.  DPS parsing can tell alot about a class but in my eperience I will let you know the only reason why wiz/war spell dps is higher is in a short term fight.  In a long term fight necro/conj dps is better.  This does not mean they will nerf us or boost wiz/war.  Stop flying off the handle please.
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Old 02-16-2006, 04:32 AM   #8
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The damage tiers are, indeed, made by Sony.  Unfortunately I do not have a link to that thread, but I will try to find it for you.  This is the tree though from top to bottom.

First group:

  • Wizard/Warlock
  • Assassin/Ranger

Second group:

  • Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet)
  • Brigand/Swashbuckler

Third group:

  • Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet)
  • Troubador/Dirge
  • Bruiser/Monk

Fourth group:

  • Berserker/Shadowknight
  • Paladin/Guardian

Fifth group:

  • Fury/Warden
  • Defiler/Mystic
  • Inquisitor/Templar
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Old 02-16-2006, 04:43 AM   #9
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This damage tree is totally out of date. It was created pre LU13 and posted on a third party site. It was a general guideline of how sony planned to move forward in regards to damage.  The damage tree also takes into consideration procs/buffs that the caster provides for allies that increase the allies' damage. Wizards have a ~70 str buff. Warlocks have a buff that lowers resists. Both versions of the Sorcerers have multiple procing buffs castable on allies. Necros have no such thing. We have NOTHING that increases our allies damage. So while we may parse out at 800 dps while the wizards/warlocks are parsing out at 650. The sorcs make up and exceed this difference via dmg buffs. Sorcerers ( mostly wizards ) choose to ignore this and go by straight parses.

Message Edited by Named88 on 02-15-200603:46 PM

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Old 02-16-2006, 04:47 AM   #10
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Everyone crying for nerf has to be kill. Instanly.
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Old 02-16-2006, 04:52 AM   #11
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The problem with these threads are usually based around a situation ( a limited situation) where someone who plays a tier 1 dps class got out dps'd by someone suppose to be in a tier 2 dps class.

They obviously scream nerf then but don't take into account the fact that it's not something that happens all the time. Every fight has different variables. 9 outta 10 times we are just were we are suppose to be in terms of dmg. Stop crying already please about the 1 % of the time we exceed that due to an encounter where we might excell.

 

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Old 02-16-2006, 04:53 AM   #12
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Actually, the damage trees were released with LU13 to show how they intended damage to be after the combat changes.  They had abandoned the all mages do damage in different ways principle and were showing how they were going to be designing damage from then on.  And they were posted in a thread on the forums in the combat changes feedback section, not on a third party site, friend.  And if you think those buffs actually make our damage equal to yours, you are sadly mistaken.  Most people can hit the cap without buffs so they provide very little damage at all.  Furthermore, the Warlock cast skill buff has never actually been proven to do anything.  Also, it seems you're the ones ignoring things to further your goals.  Like the damage tiers, the second anyone posts or refers to them you go off about how worthless they are even though the developers themselves made them.  Summoners are supposed to be tier 2, they shouldn't be doing the damage they are now.  Hopefully, this will be addressed just as Ranger damage was.
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Old 02-16-2006, 04:58 AM   #13
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"The problem with these threads are usually based around a situation ( a limited situation) where someone who plays a tier 1 dps class got out dps'd by someone suppose to be in a tier 2 dps class.

They obviously scream nerf then but don't take into account the fact that it's not something that happens all the time. Every fight has different variables. 9 outta 10 times we are just were we are suppose to be in terms of dmg. Stop crying already please about the 1 % of the time we exceed that due to an encounter where we might excell."

 

Funny.  Parses pretty much show that it isn't an isolated occurance.  Here's a good thread for you to look at.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=16287

One thing you should note is that Necromancers consistently beat both Warlocks and Wizards, albeit by a small margin.  Conjurors are even worse, parsing far ahead of any class other than Ranger.

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Old 02-16-2006, 04:59 AM   #14
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"Everyone crying for nerf has to be kill. Instanly."
 
And people with Nerfaphobia need to start being realistic.
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Old 02-16-2006, 05:01 AM   #15
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One thing you should note is that Necromancers consistently beat both Warlocks and Wizards, albeit by a small margin.  Conjurors are even worse, parsing far ahead of any class other than Ranger"

This is similar to someone posting logistical stats. Numbers can be manipulated to prove any one point or various points.

What this doesn't take into account is what tier spells , gear and items the necro, conjurer warlock wizzard and so are on using. Obviously this would influence the dps numbers greatly if the summoners where better geared and had higher level spell versions and the wizz/warlocks don't.

You are only seeing one jaded side. We do what we are designed to do atm. We got nerfed by a large margin with dumbfire pets - they tone in your posts appears you want us in tier 3 dps instead of tier 2 where we currently are.

 

Message Edited by Azreell-Asdeath on 02-15-200604:02 PM

Message Edited by Azreell-Asdeath on 02-15-200604:02 PM

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Old 02-16-2006, 05:14 AM   #16
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"This is similar to someone posting logistical stats. Numbers can be manipulated to prove any one point or various points.

What this doesn't take into account is what tier spells , gear and items the necro, conjurer warlock wizzard and so are on using. Obviously this would influence the dps numbers greatly if the summoners where better geared and had higher level spell versions and the wizz/warlocks don't.

You are only seeing one jaded side. We do what we are designed to do atm. We got nerfed by a large margin with dumbfire pets - they tone in your posts appears you want us in tier 3 dps instead of tier 2 where we currently are."

The posts in that thread are averages of raids/fights.  They are done by several raiding guilds whose members are , needless to say, well equipped.  I don't want you to be tier 3.  I want you to not be able to beat tier 1 damage on a regular basis without a large amount of effort on your part or a lack of effort on the tier 1s part.

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Old 02-16-2006, 05:20 AM   #17
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First of all I just want to say that, most people choose to whine and bi*** before asking "Oh hey, nice DPS, was wondering how you do it?"
 
Well first of all Wiz/War are ALWAYS if trying going to out DPS on any battle taking less than approximently 1 minute, after that 1 minute we will start to pull ahead because guess what, we are a sustained damage over time class, NOT a nuke the living s*** out of something til it dies class. Yes we have a pet that rivals brig/swash(iffy) and that is, I would say 60%ish of our DPS, than we have life taps, AoE's which are all quite less than wiz/war nukes/aoes, and DoT's. Our DoT's and swarm pets are DAMAGE OVER TIME, our swarm pets add I guess 175ish DPS, and our DoT's about 200ish DPS(considering thy all have different tick rate). Then of course we have our Lich proc, which will proc 165? damage off of every disease based spell, which is about 80% of our spell line. Now in fights less than 1 min. most of our spells are unless, normally I send in pet cast life tap and deathly coil, maybe word of force and with lich its done, I did right there maybe 2300ish damage, wiz/warlock did about 3 times that, maybe more, especially if it was a multi-mob encounter. Come to a raid and everytime were gonna be first to third place, of course unless the mob have a deadly AoE, then were not very high, even our mage pet is gonna melee so there is nothign really we can do when our pets die except keep recasting swarm pets when we can and life tap, and use lich proc with DoT's, because if we go to cast our normal pet, by the time were done casting/buffing, we ahve lost a lot of time where we could have been nuking, rezing, healing. 
 
Second I agree that other people should not whine about other classes, that are not their own. Let me give you a example, in duels summoners kick @$$, we interupt a lot and can debuff and stun and all that. Now about 95% of the time I duel I win, and about 80% of the time I win, they will always think of an excuse of why they lost, like "Oh if you didn't have that pet you wouldn't be so tough." or "Well I would have owned you if it weren't for the debuff, or life taps." or "Let's do that agian, I couldn't see you" something like those lame statements. I love when people tell me to duel them without the pet, becuase thats asking a ranger to duel without his bow, a wiz/war to duel without their nukes, a healer to not heal, you get the picture. Without our pet we are the equivilent to a t4ish wizard IMO. It just goes to show people like to whine and say thingsbefore they think about what they are saying, and show no respect, we are a great class and should not be screamed nerf at all the time, seriously we are very even, Necros are a damage over time class and thats exactly what we do best, we also are great utilities, rez, debuffs, heals, STA INT buff, ect.
 
Thats just my 2cp ont he subject guys, I don't like to point fingers, but we don't need to be nerfed, and those who will should just accept it and not make it worse. In my opinion some classes have been long over due for nerfs, and they've seen it coming too.

Message Edited by Dalinor on 02-15-200606:21 PM

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Old 02-16-2006, 05:30 AM   #18
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There is no such thing as a "sustained damage class"  there are tier 1- tier X damage classes.  Rationalizing did nothing for Rangers, and it won't do anything here.
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Old 02-16-2006, 05:51 AM   #19
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Actually the natural design of the spells designate us as a sustained damage class. We have multiple long term dots. Deathly coil (36 sec ), Swarm of bats ( 24 ), Stench of the grave ( 30 ), Blighted pack ( 60! ).
We only really have 1 single target DD spell and 1 AE DD spell. Everything else is a DoT. Our biggest nuke, siphon life, does 954 - 1165. Our spells are low damage with short recasts. Yours are high damage with long recasts. Using simple logic it is easy to see how we're designed for long term fights where as you are based on shorter fights.
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Old 02-16-2006, 05:57 AM   #20
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http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43

 

Well here is the link i was looking for and as stated it is a guide line not written in stone and as stated with all things being equal which we know they are not

So it would seem ok if a Necro/Conj was in the top teir of DPS

This is a quote from Moorgard:

"Keep in mind that these aren't absolutes. A Guardian who concentrates on damage output and upgrades his or her offensive abilities could surpass a Berserker who focuses on defensive capabilities. These are simply the general guidelines we're following where, all things being equal, the classes will be organized.The thing with class balance, though, is that all things are *never* equal. So much of the damage output of a class depends on how that class is played that it simply isn't possible for anyone to guarantee that a given class will always perform at a certain level under every circumstance. However, the above list should at least give players an idea of the direction our numbers will be taking. "

Message Edited by Sir Alex on 02-15-200605:00 PM

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Old 02-16-2006, 06:02 AM   #21
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And yet they lowered Ranger damage.  That alone shows that they are at least keeping the tiers in mind.  Necromancer/Conjurer are way too high at the moment to be a tier 2 class.  I predict that this will be changed.
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:04 AM   #22
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BtilTheMage wrote:
And yet they lowered Ranger damage.  That alone shows that they are at least keeping the tiers in mind.  Necromancer/Conjurer are way too high at the moment to be a tier 2 class.  I predict that this will be changed.

I hope they nerf sorc utility down to predators while they're at it.
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:15 AM   #23
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"I hope they nerf sorc utility down to predators while they're at it."
 
OK.  If you haven't been paying attention Sorcerers have constantly stated that we were willing to give up the garbage that other people call utility if we would be allowed to do what we are supposed to do.  The truth is, our utility sucks.  Stat buffs do nothing when people can cap their stats without them and some of the utility spells Warlocks have have never really been proven to do anything.  Go ahead and take it.  Of course we'll be needing your extra damage in return.
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:44 AM   #24
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Btil, i am unclear by you saying do what you are suppose to do, Moorgard said it not all thing are equal and it goes by how people are playing there class, so if wizards and rangers are constantly being out damaged by Necro's/Conj may be they just arent playing there class to its fullest potential, in my guild we have level 60 wizards and warlocks and we pretty much trade off on who out dps's the other and i have never out dpsed a ranger but than again i'm not suppose to according to the teir tree. Again it goes by spell upgrades, gear, playstyle, alot of factors there so for you to say do what you are suppose to do and than if someone dose it better that isnt suppose to do you cry nerf, errr i mean adjustment
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:53 AM   #25
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I'm pretty sure the problem isn't that everyone who plays a Sorcerer sucks....

And you shouldn't be "trading off" with a Sorcerer on a regular basis.  Tier2!=Tier1

If a Necromancer with all masters and a Warlock/Wizard with all masters were in the same raid and playing with equal skill the Necromancer would beat out the Sorcerer every time.

The damage tier put Sorcerers and Predators in the same tier, tier1.  Rangers were doing more damage than the other classes to the point of being in a tier of their own(With Conjurers).  Necromancers and Conjurers were placed in tier 2.  They are doing enough damage to surpass the tier 1 classes.  It will be changed.  People do not want to be competing with a class that isn't even supposed to be in the same tier as me.  Just like people did not want to compete with a class that was supposed to roughly match me but was outdamaging them to a ridiculous extent.  I don't understand why people are having so much trouble seeing that the damage tiers are not working right now.  Some classes are doing more than they should and others are not doing enough.  This needs to be fixed, and I'm fairly confident it will be.

Message Edited by BtilTheMage on 02-15-200605:54 PM

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Old 02-16-2006, 06:55 AM   #26
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Actually I did a test a few weeks ago that proved disruption buffs DO HELP. I had a whole write up done with hours of parsing with and without disruption. The problem is that how much it helps scales with every level. It helps the most on yellows and ( assumingly ) bell curves off as you go higher/lower.
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:58 AM   #27
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BtilTheMage wrote:

I'm pretty sure the problem isn't that everyone who plays a Sorcerer sucks....

And you shouldn't be "trading off" with a Sorcerer on a regular basis.  Tier2!=Tier1

If a Necromancer with all masters and a Warlock/Wizard with all masters were in the same raid and playing with equal skill the Necromancer would beat out the Sorcerer every time.

The damage tier put Sorcerers and Predators in the same tier, tier1.  Rangers were doing more damage than the other classes to the point of being in a tier of their own(With Conjurers).  Necromancers and Conjurers were placed in tier 2.  They are doing enough damage to surpass the tier 1 classes.  It will be changed.  People do not want to be competing with a class that isn't even supposed to be in the same tier as me.  Just like people did not want to compete with a class that was supposed to roughly match me but was outdamaging them to a ridiculous extent.  I don't understand why people are having so much trouble seeing that the damage tiers are not working right now.  Some classes are doing more than they should and others are not doing enough.  This needs to be fixed, and I'm fairly confident it will be.

Message Edited by BtilTheMage on 02-15-200605:54 PM


The summoner point is that you guys have far too much utility for a t1 class. While YOU may want to drop all your utility spells for more damage, sony probally doesn't. If sony wants to keep you guys having decent utility then I see no reason why you guys should have t1 damage. I do agree that you should be about the same as summoners, if you are atm is up for debate.
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Old 02-16-2006, 07:05 AM   #28
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I look at that tree as a guildline for the developers themselves, not a end all for every situation in the game.  What a boring game it would be if 4 classes were tops in every situation, there is something called DIVERSITY in eq2, shame the people who are usually whining on the boards can't understand that.
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Old 02-16-2006, 07:14 AM   #29
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We should have tier 1 damage because SOE put us in the catagory of tier 1 damage.  Sorcerers are, and always will be, a damage class.  We will never be buff bots.  And if utility is an argument you should still be lower than use.  You have just as much, if not more, utility and a pet to provide various services for you all while retaining the ability to outdamage and rival the classes SOE put into tier 1.
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Old 02-16-2006, 07:17 AM   #30
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There is diversity in EQ2.  Pets offer a whole new element to the Summoner classes.  The problem is you were supposed to trade Sorcerer damage for the services and abilities your pet allows you.  Currently you have sacrificed nothing and left SOE with a virtual damage IOU.  Diversity is nice, so is a class being able to do what it was advertised for.  In this case, Sorcerers and Predators should be bringing in the hardcore damage they were told they would be capable of.  Other classes being able to surpass us even in optimal situations is basically false advertisement in regards to our purpose.
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