Seriously the best place for a Ranger is retired

[Striikor]

OK I expect a lot of flak, whining and noob calls on this but I hope to get a little attention on the class, dissenters can just bite me.  

 

I do not plan to get Fate of the Sentinel or renew my yearly subscription. Not because of EQ2, in general I still love to play it, but because the class I love to play provides less and less relative satisfaction.

 

Rangers are DPS. What we have become is situational DPS, and rare situations at that. I selected Ranger as my initial roll to do just that, DPS. It worked pretty well until about the time Sinking Sands was released. Except for very brief periods we have not been the top DPS since then.

 

I am myth’d I acquired each step with my guild and did not buy it. I have all T3 and 4 pieces of T4 Gear and 200 AA. I use raid food, drink, temporary adorn, blessings and miracles. I time my auto attacks and watch my casting order. Everything is mastered and all jewelry is fabled. As a Ranger I am nerf’d to avoid standout DPS that may upset other classes and I lack a grouping logic which in final analysis penalizes me.

 

Currently when we raid I hit 10K occasionally while our Assassin is popping out 15K and the wizards and warlocks hit 12 or 13K with some regularity. Our swashy and brigs can beat my Ranger parse, the swashy popping out 12 or 13K regularly because of grouping logic. Even our Coercers and Illy’s can pop out 10Kparses. Zonewide, I may trade DPS position with mages but I am behind the swashy and assassin, in the swashy’s case because of groupage. But we offer less to the group or raid in utility than any other ‘DPS’ class. What is it again that SOE thinks differentiates a Ranger and makes their inclusion compelling?

 

Rangers’ have had sporadic fixes that have subsequently been nerf’d re; coefficient, poison and accuracy. I am dismayed that not one word has been spoken about fixing Ranger’s in The Fate of the Sentinel other than they will continue to make sure the coefficient on ranged is maintained! *(@$#%!@!!!

 

We have been nerfed a few times since I started in Jan 2005. I have played my ranger continuously since starting. To me the most distressing nerf was at the stream of arrows ‘fix’ when they added the stun, stifle and root to it because other classes complained …. sheeesh! At the same time they nerf’d one of the very best aspect’s of a Ranger, kiting. Leaving only one ranged attack, other than Auto Attack, that can be triggered whilst moving, rear shot which is useless in kiting. To this day I still don’t understand how that could have been affecting other classes’ enjoyment of the game.

 

We can still cast all of our melee CA’s whilst moving but not our specialty Ranged CA’s whilst moving.  In other words we can’t move to position ourselves behind the mob at 5 meters when it moves and use most of our ca’s while doing so. That in my opinion is crap. In SOE logic the fix would be to make it impossible to trigger all other classes melee CA’s while moving to make the ranged nerf equitable. That would be ridiculous.

 

Downgrading our accuracy and adding to the coefficient to our ranged attack buffs is an equally painful nerf. I also consider it a nerf when tracking, run speed buffs and/or mounts were widely distributed among other classes and races. We no longer have anything unique or compelling to add to a group or to a raid. What difference we can add as DPS is demonstrably not enough to provide a compelling reason to include a Ranger. Just look at recruiting and channel tells looking Ranger’s, they don't exist.

 

It may be that we can still be considered T1 DPS. We should be the max DPS as we offer and should offer less in group buffs ro debuffs than ANY other class. But they have added a few other classes to the T1 DPS group of Assassin, Wizard, Warlock and Ranger. Certainly you need to consider Swashbucklers, Brigands(to a lesser extent), Coercers and Illusionists up there now too. They have at least enough DPS to be much more attractive than slotting or designing a group to support Ranger DPS.  Those classes usually end up with whatever utility there is that would up Ranger DPS because they have something the MT or OT group or RAID needs (the brigand may be an exception with thier coming nerf they may become even less desirable). Our debuffs favor mages our buffs favor melee go figure, in all what we bring to a group or raid is ill thought out, other than DPS which is nerfed.

 

Truly, if ther is a good Assassin, Wizard and Warlock in the raid rangers are going to be #4 in the parse and offer much less utility whilst requiring more buffs to compete on DPS. It is easy and logical to form an optimum group for any of the other T1 DPS classes. IMHO Rangers should be the top DPS, we have little else to offer. The other 3 T1 DPS classes can reach T1 and require much less in buffs to do so. A ranger needs a lot more to compete in addition to having to continually buy our DPS, arrows and poisons. We are BUFF [Removed for Content]. I have an 80 Assassin who out parse’s what my Ranger could with the same level of equipment. He at least can get an appropriate slot in the OT group with his hate transfer.

 

Because of the grouping and raid configuration even tanks can generate as much DPS particularly a Berserker while Monks, Bruisers can put out T1 Numbers if spec’ed and grouped right. You can add Guardians and Shadow Knights among those who can exceed 10K on a parse. If your group doesn’t get any left over utility in the raid make up you can find these tanks competing on the parse with with the Ranger. By top DPS I mean a compelling difference. It is not there.

 

When you are watching channel talk looking for groups when was the last time you saw anyone looking for a Ranger? Me never. Look at the guilds looking for Raid team members can you find one looking for a Ranger? No.

 

IMHO SOE ruined the class balance by trying to make all the classes generate good or great DPS. Who needs DPS …. You can now get it anywhere and not lose utility.

 

It is easy to fix, and give Rangers back their rightful place as TOP T1 DPS. We should provide enough difference in DPS to be desired in a Guild, Group or Raid.

 

Unlikely fixes:

 

SOE give us our accuracy back and stop the ranged coefficient nonsense that has created this damned DPS “equality”!

 

Attack Hawk? Die Hawk or Miss Hawk is a better description. No longer on my hot bar, the Hawk has to hit to siphon off any hate. Last 10 Raids, 1 hit for 67 damage. Evaluation=Useless. Suggestion? Up the hit rates and add AoE protection and it works.

 

Stream Of Arrows ( Stupid Old Arrows is a better description)? Not on my hot bar it actually lowers DPS by over 1K. Suggestion? remove the stun, stifle, root or at a minimum the stun and stifle to allow Auto Attack to fire in its duration like it did initially.

 

Focused Aim is less and less a factor as you are usually in a group in which it provides little or no benefit. At Higher levels the only good thing about FA is the accuracy buff and to a smaller amount the DPS associated with it. With all T3 and T4 gear and fabled in the other slots RCrit and RDbl are maxed with almost any group. Also DPS is not as much of a factor as one would expect so FA is so so. along with honed reflexes and Killing instinct. Most of the time I trigger it and cancel it to leave the group accuracy buff running and shorten the recast time. Ay this point, if in a good group, the accuracy helps more than the Haste, DPS and Ranged portion. And if an Assassin is in group it just makes them beat you even worse on the one and only thing you bring … DPS. Suggestion? Take off the chance to hit with a weapon and simply make it a chance to hit, improving spell and melee hit rates. It would also be nice to have FA raid wide.

 

It will certainly not matter to SOE if I don’t renew and it is not going to make or break my guilds raiding efforts. But am I the only Ranger frustrated and upset? Maybe, no one posts much in the ranger form anymore. Rag on peeps.

[Lolianna]

I am completely in agreement with your entire post. My ranger was the first character I rolled and my favorite. I haven't even felt like playing the game for the past couple months. I do keep watching these forums in hopes of some sign of class balance next expansion. If not, I believe it's time to save my 29.95 a month x2 accts for another game that understands that class balance is necessary for all classes; not just the ones that devs play.

Meerah

[TheSpin]

Seems like I already read somewhere that stream of arrows was going to be changing along with some other things to benefit Rangers.

I can understand if you're wary about buying the expansion, but keep an eye out on what comes and maybe you'll be suprised.

[-=Hoss=-]

Honestly, if brigs and swashies are always outparsing you (I mean on ZWs, not really on individual fights), I think the problem is that you are not as good with that ranger as you think you are.  Not sure the devs should buff an entire class because some people on the lower end can't quite figure things out. 

The only legitimate issue I think you brought up is that a lot of raid leaders don't seem to know where to put the ranger.  But its not SOEs job to educate them, its yours.  It does kinda suck for rangers that they seem to get put into the leftover group.  When I inhabited that group, I made it my mission to recruit the buffs I was missing.

[Striikor]

Hmmmm I don’t remember saying I was great, truth be told I think I play my ranger pretty well. I suck at my Assassin but I can outparse what my Ranger did with the same level of equipment and CA’s. The Swashy's is in the MT group where he should be with our best Dirge, Coercer/Illy, Templar Warden. Yes he outparse's me ..... Duh!

 

Hoss as I remember your main is an ASSassin right? Do you run in raid with a Ranger? Are you in the same group? So you fight for the top parse with the ranger all the time right? If true you suck as an Assassin as you almost certainly get slotted in a better group.

 

From the get go predator’s were supposed to parse fairly equally, they don’t. And Assassin’s should not be nerf’d the DPS is needed and I think about perfect for the current status of the game. Assassins need to provide demonstrably better DPS. Assassins need the group buffs associated with the MT and OT group. Fortunately assassins have an aggro transfer that makes them a logical class to put in the MT or OT group. .  It is likely you are either in the MT or OT group with a top notch dirge and Illy or coercer with a templar and warden. What chance do you think a ranger has of getting that slot? Zero

 

An Assassin self buffs DPS and the Chaining lowers the need for increased triggers. Add speed and you are good to top the parse most of if not all the time. You don’t need much more to provide the best DPS. Plus you can help in Aggro management with Murderous Design which gets you a slot in the MT or OT group. The Ranger has nothing to logically place them in the group they need to maximize their DPS.

 

Typically the Ranger gets the leftovers group no matter how good they are because of grouping logic.  You can place a ranger to help a RAID you are not going to place a Ranger to help a Group ( though I can improve the hit rate of our  second Assassin when he is in my group with FA by 3% over the course of a nights raiding). I can still parse in the top 4 and never lower than 6 whatever group I am in.  The frustration is Ranger’s need an Illy, Dirge/Troub, Coercer to probide top DPS something they will never get as most guilds struggle to field enough utility. Utility rightly goes first to the MT and OT groups in the current raiding environment. The Mage group needs a Troubadour to help four DPS at one shot. We normally run with 2 dirges and a troub, and illy and a coercer that's it for utility. With that utilty you put it all in the two tank groups and the mage group. We get through most of the zones. That leaves the ‘pug’ group to put the Ranger in with whatever else is available. Usually:

 

Bruiser

Inquisitor/Mystic

Ranger

Warden/Fury

Brigand/Assassin

Flavor of the night lower end Dirge, Illy if lucky summoner's if not

 

And yes on occasion I out parse the Assassin, usually on the named fight, but not on a ZW.

 

That is the main point, groupage that and the fact they have distributed uniqueness the Ranger class had among various classes or races. Plus they skew the DPS generated by ranged with their [Removed for Content] coefficent. Currently the Tank groups need that same utility and the MT and OT needs trump DPS needs. The ‘Scout’ Group has been disbanded. That fact currently leaves only one of the predator class in the cold.

 

Again as empirical evidence take a look for guilds seeking a ranger vs. assassin, or an instance group looking for a ranger. They don’t exist that should tell even you something. And I think Rangers are better off than summoner's and brawlers.

 

I am sure there is imbalance between subtypes elswhere but I think it is fairly dramatic between and Assassin and a Ranger. First an Assassin is gernerally going to out parse a Ranger, second the assassin has an attractive hate transfer that gets them into desired groups and the ranger does not.

 

I guess I would like to see the difference hightened rather than lessened. Make the Ranger and attractive addition to the ranged DPS (mages) and get equivlent buffs (speed (troub), dps(Coercer) and triggers(?)) that an assassin would get out of the MT or OT group. Right now a group needs to be built around Rangers, there are no groups asking for Rangers, so it is an order of magnitude tougher to get the needed buffs. 

[Lethe5683]

The stat consolidation in the next expansion will help rangers quite a lot.  As it is rangers are not terribly behind, although I will admit the difference is definatly considerable.

[glowsintheda]

The problem is that either rangers need some substantial utility or a rediculous increase in DPS to be viable as a class.  We currently offer ZERO utility, every other class at least has either a group or single target maintained buff, our debuffs do next to nothing.  Most rangers don't want to continue to stagnate DPS wise in order to get more utility (because you know they will never give us both)  Rangers need more DPS, enough so that with equivalent gear/buffs that they parse about the same as their counterpart, and some moderate utility so that there is some reason for the random pick up group to be willing to take one (can't believe how many times I see groups looking for assassin/brig/swash/ NO RANGERS in level chat)  What that utility should be? I honestly have no idea unless maybe a group de hate buff (the stupid bird doesn't count) would sort of make sense since assassin have a hate transfer for the tank.

[Davngr1]

Toball Tokor wrote:

OK I expect a lot of flak, whining and noob calls on this but I hope to get a little attention on the class, dissenters can just bite me.  

 

I do not plan to get Fate of the Sentinel or renew my yearly subscription. Not because of EQ2, in general I still love to play it, but because the class I love to play provides less and less relative satisfaction.

 

Rangers are DPS. What we have become is situational DPS, and rare situations at that. I selected Ranger as my initial roll to do just that, DPS. It worked pretty well until about the time Sinking Sands was released. Except for very brief periods we have not been the top DPS since then.

 

I am myth’d I acquired each step with my guild and did not buy it. I have all T3 and 4 pieces of T4 Gear and 200 AA. I use raid food, drink, temporary adorn, blessings and miracles. I time my auto attacks and watch my casting order. Everything is mastered and all jewelry is fabled. As a Ranger I am nerf’d to avoid standout DPS that may upset other classes and I lack a grouping logic which in final analysis penalizes me.

 

Currently when we raid I hit 10K occasionally while our Assassin is popping out 15K and the wizards and warlocks hit 12 or 13K with some regularity. Our swashy and brigs can beat my Ranger parse, the swashy popping out 12 or 13K regularly because of grouping logic. Even our Coercers and Illy’s can pop out 10Kparses. Zonewide, I may trade DPS position with mages but I am behind the swashy and assassin, in the swashy’s case because of groupage. But we offer less to the group or raid in utility than any other ‘DPS’ class. What is it again that SOE thinks differentiates a Ranger and makes their inclusion compelling?

 

Rangers’ have had sporadic fixes that have subsequently been nerf’d re; coefficient, poison and accuracy. I am dismayed that not one word has been spoken about fixing Ranger’s in The Fate of the Sentinel other than they will continue to make sure the coefficient on ranged is maintained! *(@$#%!@!!!

 

We have been nerfed a few times since I started in Jan 2005. I have played my ranger continuously since starting. To me the most distressing nerf was at the stream of arrows ‘fix’ when they added the stun, stifle and root to it because other classes complained …. sheeesh! At the same time they nerf’d one of the very best aspect’s of a Ranger, kiting. Leaving only one ranged attack, other than Auto Attack, that can be triggered whilst moving, rear shot which is useless in kiting. To this day I still don’t understand how that could have been affecting other classes’ enjoyment of the game.

 

We can still cast all of our melee CA’s whilst moving but not our specialty Ranged CA’s whilst moving.  In other words we can’t move to position ourselves behind the mob at 5 meters when it moves and use most of our ca’s while doing so. That in my opinion is crap. In SOE logic the fix would be to make it impossible to trigger all other classes melee CA’s while moving to make the ranged nerf equitable. That would be ridiculous.

 

Downgrading our accuracy and adding to the coefficient to our ranged attack buffs is an equally painful nerf. I also consider it a nerf when tracking, run speed buffs and/or mounts were widely distributed among other classes and races. We no longer have anything unique or compelling to add to a group or to a raid. What difference we can add as DPS is demonstrably not enough to provide a compelling reason to include a Ranger. Just look at recruiting and channel tells looking Ranger’s, they don't exist.

 

It may be that we can still be considered T1 DPS. We should be the max DPS as we offer and should offer less in group buffs ro debuffs than ANY other class. But they have added a few other classes to the T1 DPS group of Assassin, Wizard, Warlock and Ranger. Certainly you need to consider Swashbucklers, Brigands(to a lesser extent), Coercers and Illusionists up there now too. They have at least enough DPS to be much more attractive than slotting or designing a group to support Ranger DPS.  Those classes usually end up with whatever utility there is that would up Ranger DPS because they have something the MT or OT group or RAID needs (the brigand may be an exception with thier coming nerf they may become even less desirable). Our debuffs favor mages our buffs favor melee go figure, in all what we bring to a group or raid is ill thought out, other than DPS which is nerfed.

 

Truly, if ther is a good Assassin, Wizard and Warlock in the raid rangers are going to be #4 in the parse and offer much less utility whilst requiring more buffs to compete on DPS. It is easy and logical to form an optimum group for any of the other T1 DPS classes. IMHO Rangers should be the top DPS, we have little else to offer. The other 3 T1 DPS classes can reach T1 and require much less in buffs to do so. A ranger needs a lot more to compete in addition to having to continually buy our DPS, arrows and poisons. We are BUFF [Removed for Content]. I have an 80 Assassin who out parse’s what my Ranger could with the same level of equipment. He at least can get an appropriate slot in the OT group with his hate transfer.

 

Because of the grouping and raid configuration even tanks can generate as much DPS particularly a Berserker while Monks, Bruisers can put out T1 Numbers if spec’ed and grouped right. You can add Guardians and Shadow Knights among those who can exceed 10K on a parse. If your group doesn’t get any left over utility in the raid make up you can find these tanks competing on the parse with with the Ranger. By top DPS I mean a compelling difference. It is not there.

 

When you are watching channel talk looking for groups when was the last time you saw anyone looking for a Ranger? Me never. Look at the guilds looking for Raid team members can you find one looking for a Ranger? No.

 

IMHO SOE ruined the class balance by trying to make all the classes generate good or great DPS. Who needs DPS …. You can now get it anywhere and not lose utility.

 

It is easy to fix, and give Rangers back their rightful place as TOP T1 DPS. We should provide enough difference in DPS to be desired in a Guild, Group or Raid.

 

Unlikely fixes:

 

SOE give us our accuracy back and stop the ranged coefficient nonsense that has created this damned DPS “equality”!

 

Attack Hawk? Die Hawk or Miss Hawk is a better description. No longer on my hot bar, the Hawk has to hit to siphon off any hate. Last 10 Raids, 1 hit for 67 damage. Evaluation=Useless. Suggestion? Up the hit rates and add AoE protection and it works.

 

Stream Of Arrows ( Stupid Old Arrows is a better description)? Not on my hot bar it actually lowers DPS by over 1K. Suggestion? remove the stun, stifle, root or at a minimum the stun and stifle to allow Auto Attack to fire in its duration like it did initially.

 

Focused Aim is less and less a factor as you are usually in a group in which it provides little or no benefit. At Higher levels the only good thing about FA is the accuracy buff and to a smaller amount the DPS associated with it. With all T3 and T4 gear and fabled in the other slots RCrit and RDbl are maxed with almost any group. Also DPS is not as much of a factor as one would expect so FA is so so. along with honed reflexes and Killing instinct. Most of the time I trigger it and cancel it to leave the group accuracy buff running and shorten the recast time. Ay this point, if in a good group, the accuracy helps more than the Haste, DPS and Ranged portion. And if an Assassin is in group it just makes them beat you even worse on the one and only thing you bring … DPS. Suggestion? Take off the chance to hit with a weapon and simply make it a chance to hit, improving spell and melee hit rates. It would also be nice to have FA raid wide.

 

It will certainly not matter to SOE if I don’t renew and it is not going to make or break my guilds raiding efforts. But am I the only Ranger frustrated and upset? Maybe, no one posts much in the ranger form anymore. Rag on peeps.

 yea well.. i can tell you right now once you start killing higher end mobs you're going to be happy you can stay at range and don't *have* to be at melee range to put out respectable dmg.  

   it's becoming more and more anoying to see these "assassins are better/op" post (specialy from other scouts/melee dps) , fact is what your ranger is suffering from is the *poop* hit rates that melee has on orange mobs along with the *retarted* gear proggression that dev's gave scout vs. mages in TSO.   seriously..  mage 5 piece bonus 5% base dmg, scout 5 piece bonus? 60dps proc... mage shoulders 12% boost to all their dmg, scout shoulders?  12% boost to 50% to 70% of their dmg.   

   soe can't seem to get it right.. it's always an overkill with them.       in RoK hit rates for melee on orange mobs wehre poop, what could have been done about this?    

  increase spell resist so mages and scouts are equal agaist orange mobs  OR  increase melee hit rates against orange con mobs.   what did the devs do?    

   increased resist for mages AND increased melee hit rates for melee.        

  it's not rocket science.  i knew this was going to be crap expac for my scouts and [Removed for Content] for my mages since the day it went live.  i just didn't think dev's would go this far.

  next expac will bring range flurry and that will make rangers T1 again.    

 btw...  rangers where solid dps in DoF, KoS and EoF so no clue what game you where playing after T5.

 edit.  not to mention the fact that spell crit bonus drops off trash mobs in epic instances and easy names in heroic content..  when's the last time you saw melee crit bonus drops?   oh yea..  super rare.          let me add to that...  when is the last time you saw "pet" spell crit bonus?   yea.. rare.    

[Striikor]

"yea well.. i can tell you right now once you start killing higher end mobs you're going to be happy you can stay at range and don't *have* to be at melee range to put out respectable dmg.  "

We are killing high end mobs. One mob left to clear palace and 1 in Tomb., most of miragul's etc ...

 "it's becoming more and more anoying to see these "assassins are better/op" post (specialy from other scouts/melee dps)"

I don't think Assassins are overpowered they need their DPS to be attractive to Groups, Raids and Guilds. They fortunately have Murderous Design a hate transfer that gets them in a group slot with the buffs they need to perform well. There are two DPS focused scouts Assassins and Rangers. Who can honestly say that Rangers are even equal in DPS to their brother predator totally ignoring the utility aspect. Rangers have not kept pace since SS in a Raid situation primarily because of group logic. Yes they do "Solid" DPS. When DPS is the only thing you bring "SOLID" is not enough. I may be skewed on the history of the decline of Rangers because it was not until KoS that I really started to raid more than once a week. 

It is not that complicated. Rangers have 1, One, Uno, capability .... DPS. Particularly ranged DPS though half our CA's are melee. If it is not THE compelling DPS in choosing classes why is a group raid or guild going to want one? If you are a good enough Ranger you don't get in a group that provides the buffs you need because you don't fit in the groups that suck up the utility.

Ranged flurry is not going to make a difference in the problem it appears that will be a change to Stream of Arrows. It it is adding a ranged aspect to the stamina line then bleh. It is still not going to get rangers in a group if we are equal DPS to others that can also provide utility. It has to be better DPS not equal and I don't see even that unless the grouping logic is fixed.

I think it would be a significant fix to quit nerfing ranged attacks, give AoE protection to Hawk Attack and let Focus Aim be a benefit to casters. It makes sense to put a ranger in the ranged dps group .... casters if they can add something. It does not make sense to nerf or change what a Swashy or Assassin brings to a MT or OT group. 

We won't get the dirge benefits in a caster group but we can likely pick up Trobadour and coercer buffs if we logically fit in the caster group. Add a trigger buff to summoners and now you can logically get into a group that has the buffs to get Rangers the same benefits as scouts who do fit in the MT OT group. Also most of our debuffs benefit casters and poison aa's enhance poisons that help caster DPS.

[Striikor]

Summoner's and Brawlers also have a problem being attractive to a group/raid. Both can put up good or great numbers but they mostly end up in a cast-off group also. I know awesome brawlers and summoner's who can't get in a pug or pur, if they are not presonally recommended by someone in the group, because the class adds little to the overall performance of other group members and they typically do not generate enough difference in DPS to make up for their lack of utility. There is nothing compelling about their inclusion either.

So much for balance, 5 classes end up being fill-in classes. Not preferred for groups, Monk, Bruisers, Necromancers, Conjurors and Rangers are not sought out for groups or for raids.  Honestly where do you read channels asking for any of the 5? Where do you see RAIDING guild looking for any of the 5? Evidently they are about to put brigands in the same boat. They need to spend some time recapturing the differentiation that originally existed.

 

IMHO there should be four distinct groups in a raid MT, OT, Ranged DPS and Melee DPS instead of MT OT Mage and whatever. Give the brawlers some buffs that make them a premire addition to a Melee DPS group. A high DPS'ing Brawler with buffs for other Melee DPS would be awesome. They are useful situationally in raids now but it is very situational and not compelling enough. Peel works great on the detonator's that come with Xebnok for instance and the third tank is generally needed in other zones when a blowup happens in the fight and brief period is needed to get the plate back up.

And give Summoner's trigger buffs targeted at ranged DPS both ranged melee and casting so the ranged DPS group really wants them. Give summoner's better control of their pets. They don't call off or control reliably enough Haladane for instance is always a little dicey with a summoner in the raid in serveral others summoners have to take down their pets entirely. This makes them less desirable.

In my view balance does not mean equality, but equal value differentiation that is compelling to have.

 

[Striikor]

Sheeeeesh! I am derailing my own thread But fixing the Brawlers and Summoner's would/could help Rangers! 

[-=Hoss=-]

Brawlers are wanted in raids, its just that no one particularly wants them in thier group.  They have nice raidwides. 

[Davngr1]

Toball Tokor wrote:

"yea well.. i can tell you right now once you start killing higher end mobs you're going to be happy you can stay at range and don't *have* to be at melee range to put out respectable dmg.  "

We are killing high end mobs. One mob left to clear palace and 1 in Tomb., most of miragul's etc ...

 "it's becoming more and more anoying to see these "assassins are better/op" post (specialy from other scouts/melee dps)"

I don't think Assassins are overpowered they need their DPS to be attractive to Groups, Raids and Guilds. They fortunately have Murderous Design a hate transfer that gets them in a group slot with the buffs they need to perform well. There are two DPS focused scouts Assassins and Rangers. Who can honestly say that Rangers are even equal in DPS to their brother predator totally ignoring the utility aspect. Rangers have not kept pace since SS in a Raid situation primarily because of group logic. Yes they do "Solid" DPS. When DPS is the only thing you bring "SOLID" is not enough. I may be skewed on the history of the decline of Rangers because it was not until KoS that I really started to raid more than once a week. 

It is not that complicated. Rangers have 1, One, Uno, capability .... DPS. Particularly ranged DPS though half our CA's are melee. If it is not THE compelling DPS in choosing classes why is a group raid or guild going to want one? If you are a good enough Ranger you don't get in a group that provides the buffs you need because you don't fit in the groups that suck up the utility.

Ranged flurry is not going to make a difference in the problem it appears that will be a change to Stream of Arrows. It it is adding a ranged aspect to the stamina line then bleh. It is still not going to get rangers in a group if we are equal DPS to others that can also provide utility. It has to be better DPS not equal and I don't see even that unless the grouping logic is fixed.

I think it would be a significant fix to quit nerfing ranged attacks, give AoE protection to Hawk Attack and let Focus Aim be a benefit to casters. It makes sense to put a ranger in the ranged dps group .... casters if they can add something. It does not make sense to nerf or change what a Swashy or Assassin brings to a MT or OT group. 

We won't get the dirge benefits in a caster group but we can likely pick up Trobadour and coercer buffs if we logically fit in the caster group. Add a trigger buff to summoners and now you can logically get into a group that has the buffs to get Rangers the same benefits as scouts who do fit in the MT OT group. Also most of our debuffs benefit casters and poison aa's enhance poisons that help caster DPS.

 casters are all ready near or at 100% hit rate on parse so focus aim will do nothing for them even if it was changed to affect casters.

 i do agree rangers are falling bellow the mark now a days but that's because of "melee hit rates" yes arrows can be used at range but they still check against melee avoidance.

 the utillity you seek for your class is already being delt with in a different way by devs.     instead of giving everyone utillity that will justify a raid spot over an 7th or 8th chanter/bard (sorta impossible really) they will make it so you don't need 8 to 10 bards/chanters for a raid.      after raid wide buffs the choice between you and another utillity class will be centerd on how much dps they do against what you do.      this might not mean that you will get the spot since many players that now play utillity classes are very skilled but at least it will level the playing field so it's not a onesided competition. 

  in the game today:

 best player playing "best dps class evah" <<< so so player playing "bard/chanter"

  add to that the fact that "good players" realized this back in EoF so they changed mains to chanter/bard and it's easy to understand why you're here asking for utillity.

[Gaige]

Toball Tokor wrote:

"yea well.. i can tell you right now once you start killing higher end mobs you're going to be happy you can stay at range and don't *have* to be at melee range to put out respectable dmg.  "

We are killing high end mobs. One mob left to clear palace and 1 in Tomb., most of miragul's etc ...

Those aren't high end mobs.

Ranger has two issues atm: hit rate and itemization.  Itemization favors mages with melees a close second and usually ranged mods are an afterthought on gear.  Also our 50 to 70% hit rate on mobs that matter ruin our dps because 80% of our CAs are mediocre.

[Striikor]

Correct on the casting hit rate and FA, tough to improve 100%  I was think something like a speed or trigger buff bring associated with it for spells. But giving Attack Hawk AoE protection would be attractive and may let it live long enough to do some aggro siphoning.

There are certainly higher end mobs but we have managed Xaxia Viralis, Glaciactus, Haladan, Strange Stalker, Kultak, Xythus, Tythus, Switchmaster, Absatalius, Iztak and we are farming ToMC through Xebnok.

As to switching *blah* I don't want to switch my main a Ranger because I enjoy the way a Ranger plays. Davngr1 you say good players switched to utility or did you mean players who could not produce enough to keep their slot?

FA benefits Melee I am rarely in a group with melee classes, debuffs favor mages why would you slot a ranger in either the MT, OT or Mage group? Our brother Predator Assassins are a natural fit for the OT group and normally get the benefit of of a dirge, coercer and Illy. My complaint is that you actually need to build a group around a Ranger to get the best DPS your not going to add a Ranger to a group to make it better in today's environment. Sure FA would be bones if a scout group were still viable but I don't know anyone that runs a scout group anymore do you? 

Utility? No I would rather have DPS, to get that you need a good group. Group logic for a Ranger is messed up. I still have a slot in a good guild and am thankful for it. It does not lessen the frustration though as I have watched people I consistently used to outparse inevitably passing me on the parsing list Primarily because the group logic sucks. Also Gaige is right in that the hit rates on AA drastically change a Rangers DPS as so much of their DPS is AA and the coeffcient they palce on Ranged is a significant negative too. Itemization does tend to favor melee not ranged though that has improved lately.

[Davngr1]

Toball Tokor wrote:

As to switching *blah* I don't want to switch my main a Ranger because I enjoy the way a Ranger plays. Davngr1 you say good players switched to utility or did you mean players who could not produce enough to keep their slot?

 i din't mean to say that "you" should switch.    what i meant to say was that back in EOF many "good" players realized that chanters and bards (with eof aa) where benefiting raids more so then any other dps class.

[Striikor]

You have a better memory than I do. I was thinking it was a bit before EoF. I was mainly pointing out the the Ranger nerfing really took hold around sinking sands and never really recovered. There were brief periods but in general the DPS has not really offset the lack of utility since then. I think arrows are still out of whack. A tank gets the same bonus to hit from them as a ranger of course our ranged is a lot higher. It was brought further out of balance progressively up through RoK. As I think Gaige pointed out in addition to groupage and encroachment by other classes and races there is poison and hit rates. With the amount of of our DPS required to be AA that is really a penalty to a Ranger. I don;t think any other class is as dependent on auto attack or it's timing.

Intrestingly enough looking at hit rates for last nights raid the Mages were not hitting 100% .... none. Most were at 95-97% in ToMC. Of course melee was 95% down to 85% on hit rates. It seems that the last raid I checked they were all at 100%. I had a Warden and Troub in my group with the 4 piece so I was hitting 95% but only had 76 DPS.

[Velik_NVashe]

I rolled a ranger as an alt and he's actually really fun. As far as if he's useful compared to other classes or not, well that's a matter of numbers & opinions, but I do enjoy playing him with my wife's warden.

Now, would I try to raid with him? Probably not. But he's still fun to play and I'm sticking with that.

[glowsintheda]

No one is denying that they are fun to play casually. I love playing my ranger, but when it comes to raiding and doing the more difficult instances rangers in general are just out of luck.  The only way I can generally get any instance group more challenging then Deep forge is if I make it myself.  Thats usually not a problem but its nice to occasionally not have to be group leader.  As far as finding a raid spot goes... I have more or less given up trying to find one. Unless you are already in an established spot there is about 0 chance of a raid force adding a ranger to their line up, and if you are in an established spot then you have to watch out that they don't axe you for another scout that can provide more utility, more DPS, or both.

[Striikor]

It could be fixed if they want to, but Rangers are popular rolls so of course SOE thinks it must not be too bad. Problem is everyone has a Ranger but how many of them are mains? If it is a main then you specialize in solo. From looking at EQ2Flames T1 DPS poll it looks like Assassins are in a bigger boat but they are still in a boat.

 Is there a class that is as expensive to group or raid with?

We should get better buffs on arrows than anyone else or be able to create our own that are more accurate and/or more powerful.

Hawk should be able to hit and survive. Mine is mastered and has 0 (zero) dps in the last 10 raids. It has to hit to shipon hate, and not much hate then. Fix it! Give it the ability to hit the mobs grouped and raided, add AoE prevention to its duration.

We depend on auto attack damage, 50% of our dps, the hit rate nerf on melee kills us to a greater degree than any othe melee class. Drop the nerf, all melee dps has slipped behind spells.

Another nerf is weapon procs and adorns don't count a bow as a a main hand or primary weapon. Give us a way to select our bow as the main hand or primary weapon and get the effects that every other class does.

Ranged Double Attack is nerf'd with a coefficient that melee Doulbe Attack does not get. Drop it.

A melee CA still turns off Ranged Auto Attack. Supposed to be fixed, not as of last night.

Again we have one dimension and we are percieved as the 4th choice for that dimension, T1 DPS. And with all that nobody is talking about Rangers getting some love in SF. So you're right if you don't have a slot already then have fun soloing your ranger.

[Noob1974]

Lethe5683 wrote:

The stat consolidation in the next expansion will help rangers quite a lot.  As it is rangers are not terribly behind, although I will admit the difference is definatly considerable.

           I said it in a different topic Stat consolidation does nothing to prove the ranger class at all. It does not close the gap between the two predators nor does it anything towards non existing utility.

That its 5minute before 12 for the ranger class you can tell that all the high end ranger are either going to betray or roll or play an alt.

More frustrating is that the devs either dont listen in beta to ranger feedback nor seems it that the devs understand the class........

[Fezzig_F]

There should be a balance between utility and Sheer DPS. Rangers provide almost no Utility to a group or raid, therefor, thier DPS should be top tier with ease. Right along with the Sorcerers and the Assasin's.

Utility classes like Bards, Enchanters and Rogues, have thier place in raids, but should not be topping DPS parses IMHO. Even a moderately geared Predator or Sorcerer should be out DPSing them.

[kidpaul]

*Edited* removed rant.

[Arr]

Just an old ranger stopping in to check on the state of the class and I'm sadly surprised nothing has changed since ROK.   I went from hero to zero in the course of an expansion and couldn't get a raid spot 4 years ago just like most can't today... I guess I won't be resubbing.

As to when Rangers got the bat it and a history lesson on rangers it was when KOS hit the test servers.

The problem was and seems to continue to be is the fact we had always been balanced around the proc system. Back then procs would proc of procs that would proc off those procs and so on.   Once we got stream of arrows the nerf cries really came and for good reason.  The ability to fire point blank, in addition to stun poisons, made us invincible.

The devs back then and and possibly today don't know their own game.  To nerf us they destroyed the one mechanic that made us viable to our friends and guildmates and instead of fixing that mechanic and revamping the ranger class combat arts they gave us higher damage bows and made us rely on auto attack.  Now it looks like we're getting more auto attack damage.  It didn't work back then and I doubt it'll work today

edit:  Haha acidentally said ROK but that was when rangers got nerfed in EQ1