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Old 02-18-2012, 02:54 AM   #1
Regolas

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I'd like your opinions on how you think rangers are now we're in 2012.

I play a ranger as my main and only level 90 toon. I'm very casual, the odd hour here and there and the odd Saturday morning. I have played EQ2 for about 3 years although I did have a big break in the middle when I moved countries. I played EQ1 from 1999 to 2006 also.

I love my ranger. I can't imagine another class being as fun to me. I've put in a lot of time and effort into playing as him so I don't think I could ever replace him as my main character.

Having said that, I think until you get 275AA+ (which I don't), and DoV raid gear (again, which I don't), then we're not amazing for DPS. Considering we don't add much else to groups other than a little hate transfer, I think we rangers need a little boost. We are overlooked for most groups and raids unless we're lucky. Other classes offer so much more on top of DPS or just better DPS full stop.

I see other level 90 classes soloing places I could only dream, and getting the groups to go get the cool loot and progress, and it's a bit disheartening. But I still log on as my ranger every time. Once I have near max AA, maybe I'll do better DPS and be more useful, but in the meantime, I just have to accept that I help a bit but I'm not near the top of the parses and I don't bring anything else to the group/raid.

So I spend most of my time going over old content trying to raise my AA and do the quests I missed because I rarely get into a group.

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Old 02-18-2012, 09:36 AM   #2
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Well as for 'low end' I can't speak to that at all. High end our DPS is easily on par with the exception of beastlords, obviously.

The other problems you pointed out stay with the class.

I wouldn't call our bird a hate transfer even though it transfers hate from the group to the bird, but more of hate reducer since it doesn't transfer the hate to tanks to be useful. I do think the birds hate reduction should apply raid wide though. True hate transfers are inherently 'raid wide' because its hate being focused on one of the tanks who are tanking for the ENTIRE raid, no just their group.

Unfortunately I think a lot of why we are not up to par in utility is because the devs mistakeningly put too much 'weight' or 'value' on the concept of ranged CA's and ranged auto attack. Some of our top CA's are still MELEE CA's. If you want to do top end DPS you MUST use the melee ones, meaning the entire idea of being 'ranged' is destroyed since we are up there with every other melee. Only true advantages I see from ranged is maybe a couple of hits while jousting, and if everyone is staying at range on a fight we are the highest parsing scout while getting trounced by the mages.

So basically, we get penalized for being ranged, except that we really aren't 'ranged.' They need to INCREASE our utility and straight up make some melee CA's ranged CA's (bloody reminder, lightning strike, sneak attack, ranger's blade, emberstrike).

Maybe they think the group portion of Focus Aim is hot stuff but I've yet to hear even a rumor of a single person saying they like that buff. Regardless of how good our current utlity scores on their balance sheets if players aren't actively seeking it, it may as well not even exist. I have never been maneuvered into a certain group for my hate siphon or accuracy buff, meanwhile there is utility all other top DPS classes give that have been maneuvered to take advantage of.

TL;DR Overall: our DPS is fine, unfortunately even though we can match other DPS, we still can't match utility of the other top DPS classes. We have the lowest utility and because we still rely heavily on melee CA's, being 'ranged' isn't a valid excuse for utility shortcomings.

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Old 02-18-2012, 06:14 PM   #3
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Good to know rangers can keep up at the highest level. Is this with Titanium Arrows or better?

Thank you for your interesting comments.

I was considering Trick Shot as well as Hawk Attack for our hate transfer. Trick Shot gives a 30% additional hate to the mobs target from what I understand. As it does damage too, all the better. Great to allow tank to build up aggro easier.

It would be interesting to know whether an Assassin of the same AA from say 150-300 do similar damage to a ranger.

I do not know for certain, but I would assume an Assassin is harder to solo at higher levels as they have the same defensive attributes as Rangers, but need to be up close, taking damage. I do like the fact that non velious heroic mobs more often die before they get to me so I don't take much damage. Which is good, because I die really quick!!

Anyway, I just got to 225AA after a morning in Sebelis chrono'd down to 80 on double xp. I also managed to get a pick up raid in DoV and got 2 new weapons and some new gloves so things are looking up. Still struggling to break the 200MA though with mostly Velious PQ gear, a few Rygorr pieces and a mixture of DoV/SF group/solo jewelery. I am hoping to get the last three (rarest) Rygorr armours soon (boots, legs, shoulders), either through generous guildies or saving up to buy them (I'm hoping they come down in price as I really can't afford them!)

There's plenty for me to do and I'm looking forward to it. Once I max out the Heroic AA tree I'm hoping I'll have the Rygorr gear and maybe then I can get groups in Kael, etc to progress with the equipment improvements.

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Old 02-18-2012, 07:15 PM   #4
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Trick shot doesn't transfer hate, it simply applies a 10 second hate gain to who ever hits the mob next with a melee attack. From what I remember hate gain has a 'cap' and most of the time tanks tend to be capped on hate gain with utility in the group.

Although making Trick Shot into a hate transfer rather than a hate gain would be useful.

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Old 02-19-2012, 04:48 AM   #5
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Next person it attacks, so if tank has initial aggro, first shoot with this to make aggro even higher before unloading other stuff. Shame about the cap.

Trick Shot VIRanger
Ranged attack that enrages the target, causing the next person it attacks to generate much more hate for a short duration.
TargetEnemy
Power117
Casting0.5 seconds
Recast30.0 seconds
Duration10.0 seconds
Range2 - 50 meters
Hit Bonus25% Easier
Level87
Effects
  • Inflicts (X) ranged damage on target
  • On a successful melee attack this spell will cast Blamed on target of attack. Lasts for 10.0 seconds.
    • Increases Hate Gain of target by 30%
    • Grants a total of 1 trigger of the spell.
  • Requires bow
Trick Shot Spell Line
IIIIIIIVVVI
243852667787

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Old 02-19-2012, 05:49 PM   #6
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Wow they must have tweaked it before because I distinctly remember it working the way I said, I just never bothered to care because of the cap.

The whole effect is pretty lame tbh, even if the cap wasn't a problem. You can't keep it up constantly and I'm pretty sure there are player defensive abilities that prevent it from being able to actually land. Plus its useless and quite potentially a detriment if the mob ends up hitting someone else other than the tank after you shoot it.

It's better used as a low end damage CA than anything else. When rangers are in any kind of proper group or raid the only other thing we bring is some small defense debuffs, which pales in comparison to debuffs like the Assassins HP debuff.

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Old 02-21-2012, 11:23 PM   #7
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Ah well, I always used it as a beneficial CA for the tank. Guess I shouldn't put as much emphasis on it now.

I still use it as it's extra DPS in between autoattack, but it's certainly not as important as it was.

Anyway, I've now got over 280AA after the double xp weekend. Time to start trying to get in groups for Kael!

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Old 02-28-2012, 11:33 PM   #8
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So I've now come to the conclusion that there is a massive gap between raid geared dps classes and group geared. I was in a group with a swashbucker who was raid geared. I have reasonable group gear with a few solo pieces. I know I can get better gear and I'm trying to. He did double my damage on an end mob in Fortress Spire. I have all the dps AA possible and still came nowhere near him. I was second on the parse thankfully. I have 270MA, 175CC, 160CB and 130potency or thereabouts. I doubt I'll get that much higher without raid gear. Personally, I think the gap between raid gear and group gear is too great and makes DPS classes with group gear even less desirable over raid geared classes that have more utility. Which would you pick, a pure dps with group gear that only brings dps or a utility class that can also bring similar dps because they're raid equipped?
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:56 PM   #9
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Raiding would have little appeal if all it did was give only slight upgrades compared to good/best group gear.

Your scenario isn't typical or long standing. like you said you need to get group gear still which there are a couple of tiers of, and raid characters rarely group, they usually use their alts or dont run group stuff much at all. Getting beat by a raid geared player, even a class that is supposed to be less DPS, on the parse when you have group gear just isn't uncommon in MMO's generally.

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Old 02-29-2012, 02:46 AM   #10
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True, I guess I'm just a little frustrated. I used to raid in eq1 and got frustrated that the gear I spent 6 hrs a night raiding for got outdated by group gear within a few days of the next expansion coming out. I guess I'll never be happy! My male ego wabts to be the best or at least compete with the best but I can't raid anymore to get the gear!
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:44 AM   #11
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Regolas,

Even without raiding you still have a lot of upward potential. The only raiding I do is TOFSx2 and Drunder x2 (although I don't have any Ranger gear from drunder x2 yet). Which is still raiding I know, but not the heavy commitment of the x4 and the stuff that drops in TOFSx2 is sold for pretty reasonable prices.

Anyway, without a bunch of raid armor (but mostly fabled jewelery), I have over 550 MA self buffed. There is a bunch of heroic gear that either gives big MA or can be reforged into big MA. To start with, the Legs and Forearms from EOW are amazing. Combine those with the Colossal Reactant Chest and two good (+30 MA) charms and you are starting to really cook.

Finally, don't forget to adorn, adorn, adorn. You can really pop your DPS and MA with good adornments. Every white and every yellow slot should be filled.

So if you do have time for groups you can get a lot of good gear. Combine that with some good old fashioned plat runs and you can buy the TOFSx2 jewelry, Aspect of War or Colossal Reactants. (Think Deep Forge, Shard of Hate, OOA, 2/3 man TPR.)

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Old 03-06-2012, 11:49 AM   #12
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I forgot to mention. Getting to at least 277 AA so you can get the Heroic endline is a huge boost as well. Exploit weakness is usually my highest DPS combat art in my parse. Plus the Dextourous Attacks is awesome as well. Think double sniper shot FTW! SMILEY

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Old 03-06-2012, 02:39 PM   #13
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Umub wrote:

I forgot to mention. Getting to at least 277 AA so you can get the Heroic endline is a huge boost as well. Exploit weakness is usually my highest DPS combat art in my parse. Plus the Dextourous Attacks is awesome as well. Think double sniper shot FTW!

This is true. You won't have much hope competing at this point in the expansion until you at least get all the endlines in the AA tables.

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Old 03-06-2012, 07:45 PM   #14
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Thanks for the input guys. I have 290AA now so have the heroic line maxed. I have also managed to get a few upgrades so my MA is up to 280 or so. Now the only difficulty I have is organising groups on my limited (off peak) time to do the groups stuff. I rarely get to join so have to make one myself, and finding a tank and healer can be a challenge!
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:43 AM   #15
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I see you have posted some plat farming zones. Can rangers really solo shard of hate, deep forge, etc? I was under the impression epicx4 mobs are too big to solo.... but happy to try some!
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:43 PM   #16
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Regolas wrote:

I see you have posted some plat farming zones. Can rangers really solo shard of hate, deep forge, etc? I was under the impression epicx4 mobs are too big to solo.... but happy to try some!

Deep Forge and OOA should be no problem. 3 person PR run is possible as well. SoH would be a stretch for you right now, I think. If you are really worried, grab a healer mercenary. Can always suspend it if you want more of the exp for yourself to work on AA's while doing it.

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Old 03-08-2012, 07:32 PM   #17
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Thanks. AA isn't really an issue anymore. I refuse to pay $40 for AoD though, so waiting for a triple SC event till I get mercs.
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Old 03-09-2012, 07:22 AM   #18
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Man I tried to solo deep forge and couldn't kill any of the named mobs. I am very squishy and they all seem to hit fast for 4k+ a hit. If I cant kill things like that in a couple of autoattacks I'm finished
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:54 PM   #19
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I agree with the ammo issue on another thread that I cant post on also. We are the only class that has to pay to use autoattack. Assassins don't have to, and can often do more damage and bring more to a group. If we are the only ones paying, should the class not have something unique or the highest dps in order to compensate? Or an easy way of solving it (which won't over power us) is to extend the ammo conservation AA so we have 90-95% conservation all the time without the need to take up adorn slots. We'll still use more arrows than any other class but at least it won't be 5000 a day.
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Old 03-13-2012, 04:49 AM   #20
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Regolas wrote:

Man I tried to solo deep forge and couldn't kill any of the named mobs. I am very squishy and they all seem to hit fast for 4k+ a hit. If I cant kill things like that in a couple of autoattacks I'm finished

Every name mob in DF can be kited so try not to let them melee you. If your not in mostly EM raid gear then you're really going to have to be creative. 

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Old 03-15-2012, 11:09 AM   #21
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Regolas wrote:

Man I tried to solo deep forge and couldn't kill any of the named mobs. I am very squishy and they all seem to hit fast for 4k+ a hit. If I cant kill things like that in a couple of autoattacks I'm finished

I have two suggestions. First, try a healer Merc (Inquisitor). They cost you 25gold and you make 10plat on the chest.  Second, skip the names if you need to. You can get the key mob and plat chest without killing any names in the zone. Killing the names is mostly for the chance at a master spell.

Before the healer mercs came out, when I soloed this zone on my Ranger, I skipped all but the last name. The guy in the middle stuns at the beginning and leashes as well. The name by the forge was also tough for me then with the hammers. But the final name definitely can be snared but not rooted.

Regarding Shard of Hate. I would suggest a healer merc and then just kill two of the names to start with. You can also skip a lot of trash as well. The first named is the to the right as you enter the zone. Other than his big knockback he's not too bad with a healer merc there. The second is the one to the left past Master P. He is standing by himself at the top of some stairs. He has a power drain but otherwise isn't too bad.

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Old 03-23-2012, 12:58 AM   #22
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I caved in and bought AoD after the double SC day. Managed to complete the deep forge (all the names) with a SK merc. Stranngely, none of the chests gave me any plat. I suspended the merc and opened the chests but didn't see a 10pp loot. I am currently on f2p as I will not be playing much for a month or two but I was well below the plat restriction... Although maybe not under 9pp - maybe if the chest loot takes you over the allowance you don't get any of it?
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:00 AM   #23
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Or is it the Najenas Treasure to get shards that has the 10plat?
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:11 AM   #24
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Hmm not sure. The chest that gives the payout is at the end, the one that you need a key for and drops void shards as well.

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Old 03-23-2012, 02:54 AM   #25
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Ok, I missed that chest as I thought it was just for shards, which of course are useless. Next time!
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:59 AM   #26
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The other problems you pointed out stay with the class.

I wouldn't call our bird a hate transfer even though it transfers hate from the group to the bird, but more of hate reducer since it doesn't transfer the hate to tanks to be useful. I do think the birds hate reduction should apply raid wide though. True hate transfers are inherently 'raid wide' because its hate being focused on one of the tanks who are tanking for the ENTIRE raid, no just their group.

Unfortunately I think a lot of why we are not up to par in utility is because the devs mistakeningly put too much 'weight' or 'value' on the concept of ranged CA's and ranged auto attack. Some of our top CA's are still MELEE CA's. If you want to do top end DPS you MUST use the melee ones, meaning the entire idea of being 'ranged' is destroyed since we are up there with every other melee. Only true advantages I see from ranged is maybe a couple of hits while jousting, and if everyone is staying at range on a fight we are the highest parsing scout while getting trounced by the mages.

So basically, we get penalized for being ranged, except that we really aren't 'ranged.' They need to INCREASE our utility and straight up make some melee CA's ranged CA's (bloody reminder, lightning strike, sneak attack, ranger's blade, emberstrike).

Maybe they think the group portion of Focus Aim is hot stuff but I've yet to hear even a rumor of a single person saying they like that buff. Regardless of how good our current utlity scores on their balance sheets if players aren't actively seeking it, it may as well not even exist. I have never been maneuvered into a certain group for my hate siphon or accuracy buff, meanwhile there is utility all other top DPS classes give that have been maneuvered to take advantage of.

TL;DR Overall: our DPS is fine, unfortunately even though we can match other DPS, we still can't match utility of the other top DPS classes. We have the lowest utility and because we still rely heavily on melee CA's, being 'ranged' isn't a valid excuse for utility shortcomings.

as posted by Neiloch.

This is possibly the most accurate and well though-out statement presently to be made about the ranger class. I hope somewhere a dev is reading this and not rolling his eyes thinking he knows better.

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Old 04-30-2012, 01:44 AM   #27
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What's your opinion of rangers post gu63? My dps has gone through the roof with an extra 250MA and 100CC and other increases. I certainly feel more valuable as a dps class. Still the same versatility issues as before though
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