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Old 07-24-2007, 07:19 PM   #31
Bre

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Mheryl said.. "I don't want to be a fulltime tester"

  So my question is, Why are you on this forum?

   Because if this forum is for people who just want to be part time, then why not auto allow anyone who rolls a toon on Test? Is this forum not for those who dedicate a substantial portion of thier playtime to the Test Server? By your own admission Test comes in second to your Live guilds raiding activities. So when RoK comes out, concluding from your own statements, you will be on live. Simply because you will have your toons there to get to 80 and gear up to raid, which you listed as your main priority. Not Test. So I think it is safe to conclude, given your very own statements, that you are just a visitor here when you have downtime on Live and your toons are on cruise control. Furthermore you stated that raiding is your main priority and concern. This leaves out approximately 90% of the game which you show no stated interest in testing. Does that sound like a good candidate for the "Testers Only Forum"?

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Old 07-24-2007, 07:49 PM   #32
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On the substantive issue of the usefulness or otherwise of the Test channel, my opinion is that it has rarely been used productively and has often been the cause of bitter arguments over exactly what it should be used for. Not long after I began playing on Test (December 2004), for example, there was a huge issue over "bad" language and "adult" humor, and for a while there was a separate channel for the racier element. It varies month by month, but generally I find it hard to stay logged into /test for more than a few minutes at a time. Currently I am logged out of it on all my characters because the endless wittering is too distracting. I am also logged out of 1 - 9 by default and have no plans on changing that either. I rarely log into general chat channels in any game and I can't see that the /test or 1-9 channel as proposed is substantively different from any server General Chat channel. (I've heard /test compared to guildchat for the server, but as someone that finds guildchat a trial to put up with at the best of times, that's not a particularly attractive option). As for what Test is supposed to be for, as far as I am concerned, Test is just another production or Live server, with a very slightly different ruleset. Anyone can start characters there, no invite required. Everyone playing there is a paying EQ2 subscriber. The population is small compared to other live servers, and I cannot see that ever changing, because, unsurprisingly, few people seem to like paying to play unfinished content in an unstable environment. Apart from that, it's just one of the servers anyone can chose to play on as a paying customer. As for discussion of Test and its issues on other boards (boards which I haven't ever even heard of - the only EQ2 forums I read are SOE's and EQ2CTraders), it astounds me that anyone not actually playing on the server gives a flying fig what goes on on Test. In all my time in EQ1 and EQ2 "live" guilds I rarely met any players who even knew there was a Test server, far less cared what happened on it. EQ2 is developing into a game focused primarily on solo and small group content, anyway. It's the way the entire MMO market is going. Test does an adequate job of assessing that content, ithink. Raid content, such as it is, is going to need specialist testing by invited Guilds, which is, I thought, the way SoE has been testing it for a while.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:47 PM   #33
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Mheryl wrote:

The raiders want a place where we can copy our characters to test EXISTING CONTENT that is being CHANGED.  The old PVP test server might be the place to do that, and it wouldn't distract from test at all.  We're not asking to test new content, that's what the test server and betas are for.

That idea has failed (miserably) in every game that has tried it. Testing was reduced from hundreds of players logging in daily playing all (most) aspects of the game, to a couple people logging in to see a new patch, checking out how it affected their stats/performance in some minor way and logging back to live. Minor changes/patches went all but completely untested and no one ever logged in to raid with copied characters more than once or twice. While your idea sounds great, it has been tried (in numerous games) and the end result was always the same... Testing dropped off from less than perfect, to none at all.

Bottom line, while the current system isn't perfect, it has proven itself over time to be the best overall test environment to run if you want any sort of active long term testing going on.

The reason.. in the long run, players like playing their "main" characters, not some copy. Getting loot, achieving goals, etc.. on a copy is meaningless, and it doesn't take long for copied characters to realize that. People are basically selfish, they are paying for their entertainment and they want to be entertained... not do SOE's job for them for no reward. Players on test are exactly the same, most of us play here for ulterior motives, not because we like to test stuff. Something about the test server attaches each of us for our own reasons. Luckilly for SOE, because of that, we are getting a "reward" (per se) for our service. For me personally it is the lack of crowds, the generally more family oriented playerbase(that I can feel safe letting my 10 year old daughter play in) and the small town atmoshphere (even in RL I hate cities and crowds). Because SOE offers me a server to play on that meets my particular needs, I take the time to /bug stuff when I turn it up and even go out of my way occassionally, to check out stuff that was changed. For the most part though, I go about my game about the same as anyone on any other server would, which in itself generally turns up the bugs, more so than I ever find when checking specific stuff.

 Anyhow Mheryl, it is not like we do not here you or do not understand you point, it is just that many of us have played on Test servers for years and have seen almost every idea suggested (including your current one), get tried and fail miserably. There are numerous games out there still that have almost zero testing going on because of this. So SOE's choice is, to stick with what they have or risk losing it all. And so far.... losing it all has been the rule, not the exception.

Keep in mind, a testing environment is not cheap. So far every company that tied new ideas for better testing, did it on their only "Test" server, thus displacing the current population. They could open a second environment like you suggest, but since history has proven it will recieve little to no use and genrate almost no bug reports, they have to seriously think about dropping $100K+ on an idea that to date, no one has gotten to work successfully.

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Old 07-25-2007, 01:36 PM   #34
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Can you give me a list of games, and maybe some sites to check about these failed test servers? I'm not trying to get in your face here, it's hard to get a tone across in a post, but I do want to see hard data.  I played eq1 from March of 1999 til EQ2 beta, then completely moved to this game.  I've only had these SOE games as an example tho we did play Vanguard beta (my bf got the invite, I made a character, we played, did not like the game, gave our feedback and left).  There has to be somewhere with costs, failures, etc. listed or discussed somewhere, but I would have no idea where to start looking.

This place isn't the only place I'm discussing these changes, btw.  It's just one of them. Some of you got angry when I tried to do it on public forums, so as a concession to you I came here.  I can go back to the public forums and you can have me removed from these forums if that's what you want.  I can keep you out of the loop altogether.  I am not, and will not be a full time tester and I've made that clear from the first time I rolled a character on test, LU11 I think that was. And no, that's not me saying that in a threatening tone and making mean faces at you.  That's me saying, do you really want this disussion continued in a place where the people who answered the previous two posts in a derogatory fashion can participate? I dunno bout you but I don't think anything productive will get done that way at this point. I am not saying I won't go there again in the future, that's not a threat!!  I just don't want you lulled into thinking that I said I won't post again about this in a live forum and then you getting mad and calling me a liar when I do.  Live folk deserve to participate in this discussion as much as testers and I will bring them back into it when I have solid information to give them about progress or the lack thereof.

I changed my argument from putting us on the test server to putting us on our own server that gets wiped after testing because you guys like your server the way it is so I tried to come up with a way that would work for both sides.  I can't see copies working on test server (too disruptive to the people who make test their home, may cause folks to leave and we don't want that), and I can't see betabuffed characters working to test any proposed changes to existing live content (they won't have the many combinations of gear, spells, aas, etc that true copies would have). Maybe it's not the cost productive way to do it, I know nothing about that part and I would like to do some research.  The people I'm talking to understand that there is a huge gap in testing, and we are trying to find ways to fix it.  Whether you on test think it's important or not is not the complete issue.. there's an entire community who thinks it is, and that is the community that I'm a member of, and that's where my mission is focused.

Be nice if we could get past the hatred tho, with the exception of that first post I made on Flames about the girl who decided test channel wasn't the place for live folk to come up with solutions to send in feedback about the gold spammers, I've been completely cordial, and will continue to be so, no matter what a few of you decide to say or post about me.

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Old 07-25-2007, 03:38 PM   #35
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this may come off as snide, but mheryl you talk ALOT and you say almost nothing, your reiterating what youv said time and again, keep us out of the loop, what loop, who are these mythical people you talk too, we all talk to alot of people. my question is why is your "campaign" centered around your own involvment, are you REALLY that important? how do you know there isnt already something else going on that makes your entire effort in vain? there are a great deal of loops and im sure your only part of a small set of them. yes you have the best interests of the game in mind ect ect, thats great, but having your cake and eating it too isnt always an option, ya want both, eat your cake on live, and level up and have your cake on test aswell, they arent gonna be the same cake. besides cloning is illegal! its nice to see the "elite" of live taking an interest in the testing process, now if only theyd get over the feeling the need to change the process to fit there personal desires, that would be a step forward. but why are we filling a forum thats meant for testing with drama, why does there have to be drama at all? is it really that important, you wanna talk to your people in your loop great, nobody is gonna try and interefere with that this stuff doesnt need to glog up a perfectly good testing forum with garbage, and thats what it is. look up the SWG test server for information on what happened with copies
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:16 PM   #36
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DAOC is another example of how to go from good to no testing at all in a few short months. I played on both DAOC and SWG and both testing environments died... when the changes to "improve" the testing were made.

 Anyhow, you are new to this conversation Mheryl, but I have been having this conversation for 10 years now, and unless you have actually played in the various environments and seen all the ups and downs of what each offers, you are probably no very familiar with what this industry has tried over the years and seen the results of said experiments.

 My suggestion, since you do have access to this forum, is post your bugs here, just note they made it to live. In that way, you can actually make a difference, be a tester and hopefully help change the game for the better. That would be much more productive than trying to change the entire testing environment SOE has been using since 1995 or so.

FYI, what I said before holds true, live players generally do not like to Test and no matter how much noise they make about it and claim they will help if given copies, buffs, etc.. it only lasts a month at most and they never come back. And ask yourself, why would they help? It is much easier to just run into a bug on live than and report it than spending numerous non-productive days/weeks/months on a test server finding them, in hopes they might not get pushed live anyways. Which also btw, is a test copy killer, the first time a bug was reported by a copy and still went live... they give up helping, because they feel their input is worthless. Worst yet, the generally tell all the other copies, thus chasing of most anyone that was helping. Thats just the way it is... its all about human nature.

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Old 07-25-2007, 07:40 PM   #37
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From swgtest.com:  Our users have posted a total of 63484 articles We have 698 registered users The newest registered user is Thalarius In total there is 1 user online :: 1 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests   [ Administrator ]   [ Moderator ] Most users ever online was 68 on 14 Apr 2004 06:08 am Registered Users: TouYuan

99% of that activity and membership was in the first couple years when SWG Test Centre was run like the other SOE test servers. It basically died after the changes... along with most of the testing.

In DAOC on Pendragon (the test server) my guild had 300 active members, within 6 months of coming online the server climbed from 30 players online to 300 at most times (and was still climbing). Within a month or two of copies, the number of players logged in dropped back to 30 during prime time only, with occassional spikes to 60 and generally, only had a few players logged in. Even during large patches in DAOC, nothing was really tested, 99% of all the copies just tested respecs or changes to their class and engaged in a little PvP to check their performance... little to no content or changes outside of character modifications were ever tested.

Two strong cases proving that character copies do not work and what they do test when given the option. But the subject still gets brought up and re-hashed in every game I have ever played.

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Old 07-25-2007, 07:40 PM   #38
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Gonna reiterate what Kwoung said, DAoC is a great example.  I was a Team Leader for Mythic for 3.5 years, and their decision to open up test as you suggested was a bad decision that completely ruined the test environment.  It ended up that the Team Leaders were given a room seperate from the rest of Test to level up and get gear, training, and all the nifty items because test basically became their development server.

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Old 07-25-2007, 07:54 PM   #39
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BTW, Mythic made that change because they listened to folks like you on the forums Mheryl, who whipped all the other players up into a frenzy of "give us copies or give us death", claiming the test server was worthless in its current state and they would fix testing with copies!

Personally, I think Mythic should have banned all the players that led that movement and ended up destroying all testing... but hey... live and learn. Turns out live players are all talk and no action when it comes to testing, no matter how easy you make it for them. Personally, I do not blame them... whats the point of wasting time on test when you can be playing your main? I wouldn't do it either (nor did most of the DAOC test players that rerolled on live after their server was trashed).

 BTW Mheryl, not sure where else you are talking about this, because I am in both this and the Community Summit forum here at SOE and have not seen you post there about it. Unless you are talking about eqflames, which I refuse to post or even browse to again, as those are some of the most vile people over there with some of the worst language and attitudes I have ever seen... bar none. Talk about the armpit of the gaming world... /shiver.

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Old 07-27-2007, 12:53 PM   #40
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Lucky-- I'm saying the same thing over and over to get my point across because in a sense I think it's still being missed.. we don't want to change "your" existing test server at all, but want a new (or somehow secluded so we don't mess up your economy or whatever it is you're worried about) place to copy for a week or a day or an hour or however long it takes for the QA and coders and devs to get info from the five or ten or 24 or however many players log in to help test EXISTING content that is going to change, raid zones and content un-explored on the test server being one example of many.  Live people don't want to level up again on test, that's a given (it would be impossible to match what they have in skill gear, spells, etc without a copy), and the test players don't want them there (drama, price increases, server no longer peaceful, etc).  So be it.  However-- the QA and devs need warm bodies for testing purposes, and already know both sides' feelings and are as, if not more frustrated about that as the live people who get new content and have to wait for it to be fixed after it's already gone live. You're making their job all the more difficult by arguing against a new way of testing IN ADDITION to what we have already. I fail to see how I'm clogging up "your" forum, it's in one thread.  And it's a post about testing, albiet in a way that is not popular with you.  I'm trying to keep the content from going live with bugs or exploits, if I wanted things to go on as they were, I'd keep submitting the bugs from live and not say a word.  The thing is, it's MY server economy getting messed up from idiots who find exploits and don't report them, it's MY raid that gets locked out of a zone when they kill a named and find the next one doesn't work, the list goes on and on of why I'd like to find a solution that works for everyone.  I speak up because no one else did, I'm not the head of some "KILL TEST SERVER" mob. I'm not all that popular with the people who like to exploit to win either.

Let me give you a mild example.  The "mender bot", platinum repository of reconstruction.  Mheryl leveled up tinkering relatively slowly, not sure the exact date I finished but it was around 2 months after EoF and tinkering had gone live.  The blueprint for that was a rare drop, but I had noticed a lot of menders on the broker for sale.  It set off an alarm in my head, to be sure, but I couldn't figure out why.  Around that time xegonite dropped in price to an all time low for our server, and there was a whole lot of it.  Come to find out when I got my recipe and made mine --you use xegonite for the mender plans, it was giving back one more xeg than it took to make to begin with.  Yeah, this is a very mild example of the things that fall through.  It didn't get caught on beta cuz we didn't have the blueprints, it didn't get caught on test cuz the zones your people were able to complete at that time weren't the ones that dropped the prints.  I caught it, I bugged it, and it was fixed in a matter of (I think) a day or so.  Maybe I'm reaching and 30 people bugged it before me.  Knowing how some people work, the people who think a game is a game and cheat here when they wouldn't cheat anywhere in real life.. I doubt it, but it could just be my ego.  I won't even go into the exploits we've found in raid zones.  Me or someone in my guild reports them every time. (I don't raid every day, not always there to see it or explain it well). 

Kwoung and Ssilan (I just know I spelled that wrong!), thanks for the info, I will check it out as best I can. Not being members of those games I'm not sure what kind of access they have for forums, but if they're anything like these games they will have outside forums as well where I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion.  And by the way, I'm not trying to "whip anyone into a frenzy", I'm discussing it here with the people who can do something about it.. and that doesn't necessarily mean just you as players.  I'm sure there are a billion examples of why it hasn't worked in the past.  Maybe using those will help us all find a way that it can work now.  In case you haven't noticed I'm not one to give up easily.  I do give up when I see something is impossible.  Could it be that maybe I've had some encouragement that I'm not the only one who sees the need for something different? in addition to?

Who I'm talking to (at this point) isn't an issue until they have information one way or another as to what's been going on at headquarters on the subject, but when they know anything definitive I am sure we all will.

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Old 07-27-2007, 02:27 PM   #41
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I hate to add more fuel to a flame that has needed to be put out for some time, but clearly, this is going to rage on non-stop until both sides  (The people of Test vs. the raiders of other servers) come to a mutual agreement. First off:  I am wholeheartedly against trying to segregate the whole server by only speaking in the level chats.  For whatever reason the Test channel was formed, it has become a place where the Test community can share information with people from any other server that wants to see it.  I have always had test at /1, and there it will stay for as long as I'm playing this game on the Test server.  Even though at times it's annoying, it's a great tool.  The level chats were made for ease of use of finding people around your level to quest/get information from.  Personally, I've never had a use for them, and I'm sure there are others like me.  As soon as I auto-join one of those channels, it immediately gets turned off. However, recent events have lead to the Test channel being used for little more than bickering or a gamewide help line.  There have been very few times that I've seen anyone asking for specific help to find and test any bugs dealing with new content. Which leads me to want to put out what I believe to be the purpose of the test server:  to provide a small, permanent player base to help test new content and revamps that occur during the normal production cycle. Test is incredibly effective at testing content.  There is currently a revamp to two zones, Antonica and Nektulos forest.  The amount of time that people have spent testing these zones is a testament to how much good the server actually does.  There have been tons of bugs found and reported, and changes are going in right and left based on feedback.  I also know that there has been extensive work testing out the changes to tradeskill writs at all tiers, and number crunching at all levels to see just how much changes to group (soon to be raidwide buffs) will effect normal everyday playing. As it is, and much to the chagrin of the raiding community, the only content that doesn't get torn to shreds and put back together during the testing cycle is new raid zones.  (Not to say there isn't raiding going on.  Unholy Trinity is doing a great job progressing through content.  And a second force, made up of those with less time to devote to strict raiding, is progressing quickly as well.  I know for a fact that both groups are working on learning Emerald Halls currently.)  And due to the short testing cycle before releases, these zones may never be tested as well as we all wish they were.  However, it needs to be noted that during no time during the last raid zone push, Throne of New Tunaria, was information on any bugs to hunt given to the Test population.  Some of this may be due to the fact that Test as a whole isn't as far along the raid progression as production servers are.  However, devs did pick a small number of guilds from other servers and copied them to test this zone, much as they do for every new raid zone release.  And it's likely that the reason there were so few copied to test these zones is the same reason they don't have every single piece of everything available when playing on the beta server:  They don't want the rush of being the first to complete something to go away. When you're in a brand new zone, full of unknown dangers, it's exciting.  Your adrenaline is pumping, heart is racing, sweat rolling down your cheeks and you love every second of it.  But, if it's been run quite a few times, it becomes old hat, just another farming run.  For the developers, being able to control how many see the content, by just having a lack of people with levels/gear to see it, they are saving that feeling, keeping it fresh to go to everyone at the same time.  If every raiding guild was able to copy over to test to try out the new zones, they would surely want to, be the ones to explore the new frontier.  But, if everyone was given that shot, no content would go live actually being new.  By the time patch day rolled around, there would already be zone guides and loot spoilers posted everywhere.  That would completely take the excitement away.  (It would be like having the end of the Harry Potter book yelled at you before you've had a chance to read it.)  On beta, they can allow more of this type of content to be tested because those participating are under a strict NDA.  The testing server has no such NDA, and therefore people can spoil however much they want. I do firmly believe that with more people testing these zones, more bugs would be found.  But however vocal the segment of players that raid are about bugs in "their" content, zerging every new raid zone with every raid guild possible isn't something that the developers seem to thing is worthwhile or cost effective.  And a thing about exploits:  They will be found.  No matter how many people you throw at finding everything, something will be missed.  There are people that want nothing more than to find exploits, but they aren't they type of people who want to do it in a testing environment, where they waste time and effort for no payback.  It's a fact of life, some people want to get out of working to reap benefits, and as long as that is the case, there will be someone willing to save them the work if they're willing to pay. And just because a bug got fixed sometime after you submitted a report, don't think you're the only one who has ever submitted that same report.  In the process of a bug getting fixed I would assume the process goes much as it does in most software development:  the bug must be 1.  submitted by a player, 2.  read by a QA, 3.  recreated by a QA and as many others as possible, 4.  sent to the developers to fix, and then the developers actually have to find and fix the bad code, and the fix has to be tested, once again by QA and as many others as possible.  Sometimes this can be a long process.  Especially with an overworked/underappreciated QA department, who always seem to get double the work. The real deal here is just that there is no need for hostility between anyone on the test server and anyone on any other server.  At the end of the day, we're all just people who enjoy the hard work and pride that has been put into the game, the only difference is that we play on different stages of the production cycle.  This whole cycle of hostility from both sides does nothing but raise frustrations and cause more hostility, especially for something neither side can control.  If you believe the current system is flawed, then /feedback and give your reasons.  There are valid benefits and valid concerns for the way the current system is, but there is no reason whatsoever that we have to continue heated debates that are only intended to verbally attack other people.
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Old 07-28-2007, 02:32 AM   #42
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I am reposting this here....

Here is an idea... instead of SOE just using the guilds they already know and trust for feedback as copies/deletes to Test... how about putting a signup for test copies on their site where all the raid guilds willing to make the commitment to test and feedback properly can put their name in? Then SOE can do a lottery or round robin from the list when they feel they need more testing than the current Test population can provide? Would that be better? It would definately make the fact they already do this more public and give the guilds that are currently never included a shot at helping.

I am curious, what do you think of that Mheryl?

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Old 08-16-2007, 04:24 PM   #43
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We don't want to test new content, there is a test server, and beta servers, for that purpose.  SOE has guilds they use to do that as well, it's covered already.  We don't need a lotto for guilds to test new content, because they are already doing it. I don't know why I'm not getting the point across to you guys, but at least SOE seems to understand what we wanted-- We wanted a place to COPY our characters with their EXISTING gear and aa's to a test environment to test EXISTING content (i.e. the dual wield changes) that SOE wants to change BEFORE it goes live. We don't want to see stuff first.  We don't want to learn how to beat a zone before the other raid guilds get to see it.  We don't want to go work out strats to mobs that we don't get a chance to beat on live (though I have no doubt that some people will be trying that, and hopefully will be dealt with if it's a huge issue). THANK YOU to SOE for listening to us, you have no idea how grateful the raiding community is for this, but I hope that we can show you by helping you in ways we've not been able to do before due to the restraints of not having time to level new chars to use as testers. And sorry for not getting back to this thread earlier and thus necroposting.  I haven't been spending time here because frankly I got tired of arguing the same thing over and over and not being able to make myself understood.  I'm glad the people who mattered were listening and comprehending. By the way, I hope you know that the current test server is a viable place for testing still.. people who like your quiet environment will continue to play there, continue to make new chars, and probably word of mouth to friends will get more there.  There was a huge gap in what you could do tho, and thats being filled on a different server now.  No disruption to you, no live people to contend with in your channels, no one disrupting your days in a way you've made it clear you didn't want.. but now you're upset about this?  I'm not getting it.  Keep doing your game the way you have been, nothing's changed for you at all, you'll still be testing new content, low content, ts content, every day content that everyone uses , but now people who don't want to or don't have time to level again can help as well, with parts of the game that you don't want to or can't get to yet.
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #44
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Mehryl, there are words for people like you, but I'll save them for your home on Flames since you really hate being on these forums because of the mods and how you are trwated here.  Isn't that what you just posted after all?

You reap what you sow.

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Old 08-16-2007, 05:31 PM   #45
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Mheryl wrote:
We don't want to test new content, there is a test server, and beta servers, for that purpose.  SOE has guilds they use to do that as well, it's covered already.  We don't need a lotto for guilds to test new content, because they are already doing it. I don't know why I'm not getting the point across to you guys, but at least SOE seems to understand what we wanted-- We wanted a place to COPY our characters with their EXISTING gear and aa's to a test environment to test EXISTING content (i.e. the dual wield changes) that SOE wants to change BEFORE it goes live. We don't want to see stuff first.  We don't want to learn how to beat a zone before the other raid guilds get to see it.  We don't want to go work out strats to mobs that we don't get a chance to beat on live (though I have no doubt that some people will be trying that, and hopefully will be dealt with if it's a huge issue). THANK YOU to SOE for listening to us, you have no idea how grateful the raiding community is for this, but I hope that we can show you by helping you in ways we've not been able to do before due to the restraints of not having time to level new chars to use as testers. And sorry for not getting back to this thread earlier and thus necroposting.  I haven't been spending time here because frankly I got tired of arguing the same thing over and over and not being able to make myself understood.  I'm glad the people who mattered were listening and comprehending. By the way, I hope you know that the current test server is a viable place for testing still.. people who like your quiet environment will continue to play there, continue to make new chars, and probably word of mouth to friends will get more there.  There was a huge gap in what you could do tho, and thats being filled on a different server now.  No disruption to you, no live people to contend with in your channels, no one disrupting your days in a way you've made it clear you didn't want.. but now you're upset about this?  I'm not getting it.  Keep doing your game the way you have been, nothing's changed for you at all, you'll still be testing new content, low content, ts content, every day content that everyone uses , but now people who don't want to or don't have time to level again can help as well, with parts of the game that you don't want to or can't get to yet.
and your post on Eq2flames Mheryl vbmenu_register("postmenu_222453", true); Visitor   Character: Mheryl Guild: Shattered Moon Server: Kithicor Posts: 43 Photos: (0) Re: Test Copy Glad to know what you think of me, instead of the usual crying you used to do in my tells. Thank god I won't have to listen to that anymore Nice language by the way, shows just the kind of person you are. For those not "in the know", Zey and a few of his friends from test are in hate mode toward me because I wanted (and worked hard to get) a viable place to test CHANGES to EXISTING content before it went live. I made characters on test, I leveled them (my highest is 52 at this moment but my time is focused on my live server). I bugged stuff, I did my best to fit in, but as soon as I broke the mold and (gasp!) spoke out against test, I was, well.. the words you see him use there. Go figure. Two-faced is a mild word, but since I'm not as low as some people, it's the one I'm going to use. You do, in fact, reap what you sow. ================================================== ========================== Hmmm who started this thread and stirred things up ? You sure fit in after all the grief you gave to everyone. Well gratz you have gotten your wish would you please now stop coming back to a forum for people who care about the game they play being fun.
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Old 08-17-2007, 03:44 AM   #46
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Hey Mheryl, feel free to read my post in the other thread about the new server you fought so hard for and how it will play out over time. Sure your intentions are good, but I seriously doubt the playerbase at large is going to test much of anything over time(they never have before, don't see whats different now)... and you have just helped kill the first test server... thanks a lot for that too.

I guess you will go down as the EQ2 player who destroyed all the games testing... interesting legacy. Will suck to be you six months from now when all the bugs are going live fast and furious, talk about hate mail and tell hell... yikes. If memory serves, I think the last two folks that pushed this idea throughh at their companies got canned over how it turned out, hope your friend here at SOE fairs better, so you will at least have someone to comiserate with. Ignorance is a dangerous thing... it will look good at first... but wait and see how this all plays out in the end... its gonna suck hard (I have been through this a few times already, have you?). Hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.

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Old 08-17-2007, 03:37 PM   #47
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Kwoung wrote:

Hey Mheryl, feel free to read my post in the other thread about the new server you fought so hard for and how it will play out over time. Sure your intentions are good, but I seriously doubt the playerbase at large is going to test much of anything over time(they never have before, don't see whats different now)... and you have just helped kill the first test server... thanks a lot for that too.

I guess you will go down as the EQ2 player who destroyed all the games testing... interesting legacy. Will suck to be you six months from now when all the bugs are going live fast and furious, talk about hate mail and tell hell... yikes. If memory serves, I think the last two folks that pushed this idea throughh at their companies got canned over how it turned out, hope your friend here at SOE fairs better, so you will at least have someone to comiserate with. Ignorance is a dangerous thing... it will look good at first... but wait and see how this all plays out in the end... its gonna suck hard (I have been through this a few times already, have you?). Hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.

Riiiiiiiight Blaming Mheryl is certainly the easy way to dismiss what's happened and might happen.  However - I am a veteran of prior Test Servers too - ones with many of the same principle players involved in EQ2 Test - and have seen with my own little eyes the condition of the playerbases in terms of size, economy, and *attitude* just before game companies have pulled the plug on Open Test Servers and replaced them with some form of /copy ability.  This group of companies includes SOE. The consequences have followed slightly different paths to the same result: QA On-Demand Copy/Wipe test platforms, with no persistent community.  The big bone of contention is the copy test environment is an inferior testing platform to the open community one - and yet... Supposedly reasonable developers, across multiple companies, continue to come to the solution that they would rather have copy test environments INSTEAD of open community Test Servers after experience with said communities.  WHY? Maybe, just maybe, the fault isn't with the Developers, but in ourselves. 
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Old 08-17-2007, 04:59 PM   #48
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Rommie10-284 wrote:
Kwoung wrote:

Hey Mheryl, feel free to read my post in the other thread about the new server you fought so hard for and how it will play out over time. Sure your intentions are good, but I seriously doubt the playerbase at large is going to test much of anything over time(they never have before, don't see whats different now)... and you have just helped kill the first test server... thanks a lot for that too.

I guess you will go down as the EQ2 player who destroyed all the games testing... interesting legacy. Will suck to be you six months from now when all the bugs are going live fast and furious, talk about hate mail and tell hell... yikes. If memory serves, I think the last two folks that pushed this idea throughh at their companies got canned over how it turned out, hope your friend here at SOE fairs better, so you will at least have someone to comiserate with. Ignorance is a dangerous thing... it will look good at first... but wait and see how this all plays out in the end... its gonna suck hard (I have been through this a few times already, have you?). Hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.

Riiiiiiiight Blaming Mheryl is certainly the easy way to dismiss what's happened and might happen.  However - I am a veteran of prior Test Servers too - ones with many of the same principle players involved in EQ2 Test - and have seen with my own little eyes the condition of the playerbases in terms of size, economy, and *attitude* just before game companies have pulled the plug on Open Test Servers and replaced them with some form of /copy ability.  This group of companies includes SOE. The consequences have followed slightly different paths to the same result: QA On-Demand Copy/Wipe test platforms, with no persistent community.  The big bone of contention is the copy test environment is an inferior testing platform to the open community one - and yet... Supposedly reasonable developers, across multiple companies, continue to come to the solution that they would rather have copy test environments INSTEAD of open community Test Servers after experience with said communities.  WHY? Maybe, just maybe, the fault isn't with the Developers, but in ourselves. 

Good point T.  In the time I have been on test i have noticed people seem to go though stages on this server:

 (1) Wow, this is really cool.  The devs really interact with me and listen to what I have to say!

(2) Of course the devs listen to what i have to say, we've talked alot, and they find my info useful.  And afterall, they are people too. 

(3) Devs HAVE to listen to what i have to say.  I'm important to their success and what i do and say have critical impacts on the game as a whole.

I think one issue is, we have to many players at stage 3, and not enough at 1 & 2.  I'm not saying anyone specifically falls into stage three...it's not a direct statement about any one person.  Just a general thought about what i have seen occuring on test over the year+ I have played here.

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