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Old 02-01-2007, 09:27 PM   #61
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I think Bithnar has the right idea.  Make our summoned arrows stay the same in dmg output, and all others built around that value.  That way we won't have any more cost to keep the same dps we may be doing now.  And provided that is what they do, I certainly wouldn't mind purchasing a few stacks of higher quality arrows for more dps, kinda like going from regular to mastercrafted poisons.  I just don't want to have to spend money just to keep the same dps I'm doing now.  Another thing that might be good would be to up the dmg amount on upgrades of the summoning line.
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:30 PM   #62
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sparql wrote:
Just curious, as a wood worker. 

2 part question, please answer seriously.

1 - If this goes live as proposed, what do you consider to be a fairr price for crafted arrows when purchased on the broker?

2 - What would you consider to be a fair price for for crafted arrows when dealing with the woodworker directly (ie: placing an order)

  And please, I am saying fair, as in realistically what would you pay without thinking "this woodworker sure is an over-charging [I cannot control my vocabulary]".





You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).

Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.

For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.

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Old 02-01-2007, 09:36 PM   #63
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Emperors wrote:

You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).

Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.

For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.


It's hardly unfair. You shouldn't be paying for your base damage and rangers aren't the only ones that use ammo.
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:38 PM   #64
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Deson wrote:


Emperors wrote:

You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).

Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.

For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.



It's hardly unfair. You shouldn't be paying for your base damage and rangers aren't the only ones that use ammo.



I understand that we aren't the only ones that use ammo, but I'm afraid I don't undertand what it is you were trying to say.  Would you mind rephrasing please?
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:45 PM   #65
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Rothgar1 wrote:Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.
The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.
Again I must ask are we playing the same game as the devs. Where the hell do they get these ideas. This is ridiculous and just like the post by Moor that said "if procs make up 50% of ranger damage then something is wrong". Well guess what procs did make up alot of our damage as they found out when the crushed our damage with the proc change and then scrambled to make up for it.Auto-attack makes up 30%-40% of my damage and I use Raincaller. I also parse around 1500 zone wide so that is a significant portion of damage. Again WHAT THE HELL GAME ARE THE DEVS PLAYING!!! How can they make such an obvious oversight. It never fails to amaze me how little the devs understand their own game.This change is better but all it does is make us be strapped to the teet of a woodworker.
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:45 PM   #66
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I think what he meant was that it would not be directly unbalancing towards woodworkers because there are other classes that use ammo and therefore they would still be able to sell ammo..
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:48 PM   #67
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RabbitFly wrote:
I think what he meant was that it would not be directly unbalancing towards woodworkers because there are other classes that use ammo and therefore they would still be able to sell ammo..





Ah, yes ok thanks for clarifying.  If that's what he meant then yes I totally agree with him.  Bottom line I'd say is, it's wrong to make Ranger's pay for their dps.
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:49 PM   #68
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Emperors wrote:

Deson wrote:

Emperors wrote:

You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).

Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.

For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.


It's hardly unfair. You shouldn't be paying for your base damage and rangers aren't the only ones that use ammo.

I understand that we aren't the only ones that use ammo, but I'm afraid I don't undertand what it is you were trying to say.  Would you mind rephrasing please?
Sure. All arrow conversations take place as though rangers are the only ones that use arrows/ammo.  I was pointing out that it's not unfair to woodworkers for the Ranger issue to be fixed because there are still other classes that would be buying ammo. It's totally unfair and unrealistic to expect the majority of woodworker profit to come from just one class.
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:54 PM   #69
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As you can read in the thread in the tradeskill forum from a post from Ilucide (Game Designer) from the same day then this thread was started, summond arrows should not be changed and therefore stay better than store bought which will be lowered for AA damage.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=127741&view=by_date_ascending&page=4

It would be cool to get some response what the actual plans in the design and dev team really are (hope they are the same).

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Old 02-01-2007, 10:00 PM   #70
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Lordaniel wrote:

As you can read in the thread in the tradeskill forum from a post from Ilucide (Game Designer) from the same day then this thread was started, summond arrows should not be changed and therefore stay better than store bought which will be lowered for AA damage.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=127741&view=by_date_ascending&page=4

It would be cool to get some response what the actual plans in the design and dev team really are (hope they are the same).


It does not matter if summoned arrows remain unchanged. They are still going to be less than player made - it is a nerf no matter how you cut it. Any ranger that wants to do max damage will have to buy arrows. Again, we are stuck buying arrows. I am still flabbergasted at how little the devs know about the ranger class and how every fix they try to put in is misguided and founded on erroneous data gathered from their supposed playing of the class. He probably played to level 20 solo and came to the conclusion that auto-attack is not much damage for us./rollseyes.Everyone should send a PM to him and make him come back and address his misconception. And prove to us that we are not going to be strapped to a woodworker.
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:02 PM   #71
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I'm going to make a list of proposed changes.  I think the idea of mass use of consumables is a great idea, especially if the consumables are made by other players.

Priests:  Prayer Totems  Each heal that the priest casts now consumes a Prayer Totem that allows the player to focus his energy into healing.

Melee fighters:  Whetstones:  For every x attacks, a whetstone is consumed as blades need to be kept sharp at all times.

Casters:  Spell Components:  The majority of all caster's spells now require the consumption of specific spell components.

Tanks:  Repair Kits (New Type):  Even though the tank doesn't die, he is still getting beat on and his armor now takes damage.  In order to keep it in good repair he now has to periodically use repair kits.

Of course each class will have a SUB PAR ability to summon x number of each consumable, but be warned  these abilities do not scale properly and you will often times be left with only the ability to summon consumables a whole tier below your current needs.

However,  TRADESKILLERS REJOICE,  just look at all the new recipes they will be able to make.  Possibly even different prayer totems for each class of healer, maybe even different ones for if you want to cast a solo heal, group heal, reactive, HoT, ward...omg the possibilities are endless!!

And rest assured they are all sleeping happy tonight when they know they are the only source fir the best possible consumables because vendor bought stuff is now complete junk.

 

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Old 02-01-2007, 10:03 PM   #72
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Bentgate please read my post. No matter how much it aggrivates you to have to buy ammo, and me, this is still a huge improvement and should not be considered a nerf.
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:07 PM   #73
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Rangers are the only one with an arrow summon CA right? (don't know if assasins get it or not)Why does summoned arrows need to be lowered? Why can't summoned = vendor?They are no drop, so I can't trade them, so it doesn't effect any other class.I use more than any other class possibly could anyway.Leave summoned and vendor as they are now (equal) and leave them for the same damage. Make the player crafted give their damage bonus with base the same as summoned/vendor(or however they are doing it), and everyone will be happy.I don't see why the vendor needs me to buy arrows from them. No one buys their armor, their weapons, and vary, vary rarely, their app2 spells.Why do they suddenly need my business for arrows? Let the tank classes and other scouts buy their arrows from them, let me summon my own, and make both equal.
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:16 PM   #74
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RabbitFly wrote:
Bentgate please read my post. No matter how much it aggrivates you to have to buy ammo, and me, this is still a huge improvement and should not be considered a nerf.



Its handing us a much needed fix in one hand and then slapping us in the face with a nerf with the other while we're in the middle of saying thank you. 
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:35 PM   #75
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I'm actually excited about this proposal even though its not a complete fix, it should be a step in the right direction.  Arrow consumption should go down tremendously since every ranged hit does not use an arrow now, only the auto attacks.

In regards to the pricing of arrows - sure every ranger out there that wants to maximinze dps will be using player crafted arrows - the summoning line will be for solo adventruing and helping friends with lower lvl mobs.  So now its about buying arrows from woodworkers.  Looking at costs it will still hurt but maybe not as bad as it did before.  If i have to fill up my 22 slot quiver it will cost the following based on what a woodworker would charge per arrow:

1.4sp per arrow (fuel only) = 1.38 gp per stack = 30.41 per quiver = 36.49 per quiver with 20% broker fee

2 sp per arrow = 1.98 gp per stack = 43.56 per quiver = 52.27 per quiver with broker fees

3 sp per arrow = 2.97 gp per stack = 65.34 per quiver = 78.41 per quiver with broker fees

4 sp per arrow = 3.96 gp per stack = 87.12 per quiver = 104.54 per quiver with broker fees

How much profit should a tradeskiller make per combine? the above prices allow the woodworker to make 0, 0.6gp, 1.59 gp, or 2.58 gp per pristine combine if you assume fuel cost only and dont place a price on raw materials and if SOE decides to keep the fuel and raw material cost the same.  I know they said that would but......

 

Not sure how these profits work when compared to what poison cost to make (I dont have an alchemist) -but if people are charging 30 sp for a poison and make 10 in a combine - does it cost them 3 gp in fuel? will we see this same mark-up on arrows?

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Old 02-01-2007, 10:35 PM   #76
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Boramyr wrote:

RabbitFly wrote:Bentgate please read my post. No matter how much it aggrivates you to have to buy ammo, and me, this is still a huge improvement and should not be considered a nerf.

Its handing us a much needed fix in one hand and then slapping us in the face with a nerf with the other while we're in the middle of saying thank you. 

No it's not the fact that crafted arrows will be a requiredment does not automaticly mean you will spend more cas on arrows now, which is why I made the post with the math. I agree this isn't optimal (think I have said this 10 times now), but this is not a nerf in anyway.If you are currently only using makeshift arrows and tend to spend alot of time standing around summoning arrows, then you will be spending less money on arrows, if you are one that allready were spending money on vendor bought arrows then you will be spending less money on arrows, if you are one of those that have a t8 ammo bow, you won't get affected, except that you don't "HAVE" to keep as many arrows on you at all times.
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:50 PM   #77
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Rothgar1 wrote:
This has been a hot topic for awhile and I'm pleased to say that GU32 will bring some nice changes.  Combat arts will no longer consume ammo with the next live update.  Only your auto-attack will use arrows.

Arrow damage is also being looked at and balanced so there will be a benefit to using better arrows.  Summoned arrows will provide the lowest damage, with vendor bought arrows being slightly better.  Crafted arrows will give the best dps, and among the three types of crafted arrows, each one will enhance either range, accuracy or damage.   Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down.  This in combination with them only being used for auto-attack should make it very feasible to use crafted arrows if you want to maximize your dps.  Keep in mind this will only affect the damage amounts on auto-attacks and not on combat arts. CA damage will still be affected by your stats and the tier of your bow.

If you have any questions or concerns about this change, I'll try to help.




I am quite happy and satisfied with this resolution, SOE has earned a little respect with this response, now I hope that this comes through.
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Old 02-01-2007, 11:10 PM   #78
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If the DPS is set as below, and *gathered DPS remains the same as now* then I don't see how it's a nerf, or how anyone can complain. Nothing has been made worse - our DPS is the same, our costs have been massively reduced, and Woodworkers might be able to sell some arrows (rather than selling a big fat zero now)Arrow DPS: Vendor < Gathered < Player MadeOK, there's the potential for non Scout classes to increase their DPS by using player made arrows, but good luck to them I say. It's not going to make a huge difference as we're talking maybe 1 or 2 arrows before they have to switch to melee. I can also guarantee that 99% of them will flat out refuse to pay for the DPS increase. How many of them use anything other than tin arrows anyway ? Maybe they will finally begin to understand why we've been complaining so much.Now if the devs are crazy enough to reduce gathered arrow DPS even 1 point, and make vendor ammo better than gathered then I think I'll finally get the hint that the don't really want my money and quit playing once and for all.
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Old 02-01-2007, 11:17 PM   #79
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Just to ask, since I'm not a raider in any way at all SMILEY 

One of the people that have parses for how much damage % auto attack is, does that parse also have a number with it for the number of times "peirce" was used?  I just want to see if somone can put a number to an average raid zone for the number of auto attacks that we use. 

That might get a starting point for the new arrow consumption rate.  If we get down to just auto-attack using actual arrows, maybe we'll find that we would only use say 800 arrows/raid or something (made up number) rather than 4000+ that people are saying. 

I'm not getting into the "paying for DPS" argument, just wondering if we have an estimate on how many arrows would be used.

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Old 02-01-2007, 11:19 PM   #80
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EQ2Magroo wrote:If the DPS is set as below, and *gathered DPS remains the same as now* then I don't see how it's a nerf, or how anyone can complain. Nothing has been made worse - our DPS is the same, our costs have been massively reduced, and Woodworkers might be able to sell some arrows (rather than selling a big fat zero now)Arrow DPS: Vendor < Gathered < Player MadeOK, there's the potential for non Scout classes to increase their DPS by using player made arrows, but good luck to them I say. It's not going to make a huge difference as we're talking maybe 1 or 2 arrows before they have to switch to melee. I can also guarantee that 99% of them will flat out refuse to pay for the DPS increase. How many of them use anything other than tin arrows anyway ? Maybe they will finally begin to understand why we've been complaining so much.Now if the devs are crazy enough to reduce gathered arrow DPS even 1 point, and make vendor ammo better than gathered then I think I'll finally get the hint that the don't really want my money and quit playing once and for all.

That is what they are doing. Summoned arrows will be 6% less damage. So our summon arrow skill is now junk. Let me repeat. We will still have to buy arrows to perform our job to the utmost.  This is replacing one broken mechanic with another. Dont get me wrong I am glad that our CAs dont use arrows. I mostly raid, so most of my arrow consumption comes from auto-attack anyways so this hurts us more than anyone else.Leave summoned alone. That is the only way to be fair.
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Old 02-01-2007, 11:26 PM   #81
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Emperors wrote:

sparql wrote:Just curious, as a wood worker.  2 part question, please answer seriously.1 - If this goes live as proposed, what do you consider to be a fairr price for crafted arrows when purchased on the broker? 2 - What would you consider to be a fair price for for crafted arrows when dealing with the woodworker directly (ie: placing an order)  And please, I am saying fair, as in realistically what would you pay without thinking "this woodworker sure is an over-charging [I cannot control my vocabulary]".

You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).

Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.

For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.


You still didn't answer my question.  I could care less if you find it ethically "fair" that you have to pay to do part of your DPS.  That isn't what I was asking.  I was asking, assuming you HAVE TO pay for part of your DPS what is a fair price for the crafter to charge you?  Ideally one of 2 things happen, 1 - All DPS classes have some form of consumable items they can use for good power-free auto attack.  And we're all on the same playing field.  Personally, I like this idea the most as I'd love to be able to keep up when I'm getting low on power.2 - Rangers no longer have to pay for arrows, which I can care less about because it doesn't effect me either way.  Because, I'm a wizard and I don't currently craft arrows because there is no reason for me to.Lastly, I doubt they will make summoned arrows do the damage they do now, with more damage for store bought, then crafted because then they will be essentially giving you all a free DPS increase. 
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Old 02-01-2007, 11:42 PM   #82
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Boramyr wrote:

EQ2Magroo wrote:
In general this is good news, but I have mixed feelings on the details of this:4. T8 summoned ammo being better than T7 ammo makes sense to me. It would be nice though if the very best player made T7 ammo did the same damage as the summoned T8, so those Rangers who didn't have the bow but still wanted to try to keep up with the DPS can spend money to do so. As their bow isn't as good they are always going to lag behind, so the T8 guys will still parse above them (unless they are slacking !!!) SMILEY5. When level cap is increased to 80 (??), that T8 summoned ammo is not going to be the one to use, so this should make things interesting for those bow users...

Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on 02-01-2007 04:17 AM


A slight flaw in your logic here is that its T8 LEGENDARY ammo.

since the game works like this

No Flag < Handcrafted < Treasured < Mastercrafted < Legendary < Fabled < Mythical

And T7 < T8

The Ammo from Bazkul, Ichorstrand, and the Membranous Spined Sheath better be more damage than anything else other than the Fabled Emerald Halls arrows and any other fabled/legendary T8 ammo they decide to add,  until they put in T9 ammo of any type.   If its not they are Nerfing the weapons and will have to completely readjust the system when they raise the level caps. 


I'm not sure why the ammo is flagged as legendary, all other types of gathered arrows are just no-flag. Once people can level to 80 having the ammo as Legendary could cause some problems. It would completely destroy the arrow market at T8 (haha, stop laughing I know it's funny but I'm serious) and make the T8 summoned arrow spell pointless.Actually, I'd like to see arrow levels something like this: vendor = handcrafted (same as previous tier mastercrafted) gathered = treasured ( > handcrafted ammo) player made = mastercrafted (same as next tier handcrafted) The T8 ammo from those bows should be set to treasured. The actual word doesn't matter one bit, providing there is no nerf to damage output. The ammo would still be better than T7 player made arrows (see above), so it would easily be the best in game (as well as being free). Just to make it absolutely clear - the T8 ammo from those bows would still be the best in game at the current time. Nobody is calling for a DPS nerf. Don't touch the DPS, rather use these arrows as a base for T8 when it arrives.Once the level cap is increased then these bows would be giving ammo equal to Ranger T8 gathering spell. This makes a lot of sense to me. It's an additional method of getting arrows, so it still has some use, just not from a DPS point of view. Of course, let's not forget that there will be a whole bunch of new T8 bows with T9 ammo gathering etc. so I doubt anyone would want to use these old bows anyway. Or are we saying that these T7 bows should still be the be-all-end-all for a T8 Ranger ?
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Old 02-01-2007, 11:52 PM   #83
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sparql wrote:


1 - All DPS classes have some form of consumable items they can use for good power-free auto attack.  And we're all on the same playing field.  Personally, I like this idea the most as I'd love to be able to keep up when I'm getting low on power.

2 - Rangers no longer have to pay for arrows, which I can care less about because it doesn't effect me either way.  Because, I'm a wizard and I don't currently craft arrows because there is no reason for me to.

Lastly, I doubt they will make summoned arrows do the damage they do now, with more damage for store bought, then crafted because then they will be essentially giving you all a free DPS increase. 


1 - what consumable does a wizard or warlock have that's used in autoattack?

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Old 02-02-2007, 12:00 AM   #84
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bongotez wrote:

sparql wrote:
1 - All DPS classes have some form of consumable items they can use for good power-free auto attack.  And we're all on the same playing field.  Personally, I like this idea the most as I'd love to be able to keep up when I'm getting low on power.2 - Rangers no longer have to pay for arrows, which I can care less about because it doesn't effect me either way.  Because, I'm a wizard and I don't currently craft arrows because there is no reason for me to.Lastly, I doubt they will make summoned arrows do the damage they do now, with more damage for store bought, then crafted because then they will be essentially giving you all a free DPS increase. 

1 - what consumable does a wizard or warlock have that's used in autoattack?


Perhaps you could re-read the entire post and see that these are suggestions to put everyone on the same playing field.We don't have consumables, and we also don't have any decent auto attack.  Give me a method of auto attack that I can do from range and I'd gladly pay for consumables.
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Old 02-02-2007, 12:01 AM   #85
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Bentgate you are misunderstanding, Vendor arrows are being nerfed, not makeshift.There was some confusement but in the thread on the ts forums it is stated that they are not touching summoned arrows at all, what they are doing is increasing crafted arrows, so that summoned arrows will be less efficent than the new crafted arrows, not that they will be 6% worse than they are now.And stop bringing up the wizards have to use power potions etc etc.. we pay for poisons, and there is alot of rangers/scouts that use powerpotions stat potions etc etc.. as allready stated. And in any case it is a mute point, cause it is not required. Yea sure you need em to make the best out of your class, but when we are talking about arrows we are not talking about making the best out of our class we are simply talking about using our class at all. And comparing wizards not having a ranged auto attack is mute as well, cause then there is a huge misunderstanding in how rangers are balanced. Rangers AA is the way they balance out our dps.. Comparing CAs and Spells of most classes you will see that rangers are lower in almost all aspects, and we have AAs to compensate, if you really want to get a consumeable item to do ranged auto attacks do understand that it means a HUGE nerf for wizard spells (if it ever was to happen, as it happend to rangers).

Message Edited by RabbitFly on 02-01-2007 11:05 AM

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Old 02-02-2007, 12:09 AM   #86
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Since my original post is being picked apart due to my statement about auto-attack damage please let me rephrase it.  I never meant to imply that auto-attack wasn't a signficant part of the damage, but that it was not the majority of our damage.  Combat Arts still make up the largest part of a Ranger's DPS.  The whole point of this statement was to say that a slight dps decrease for summoned arrows on auto-attack will not have a huge overall impact.   You will never be required to purchase arrows from a crafter, its just an option that you have that other classes don't get in order to improve your dps.  Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.I'm glad to hear that for most people this is a welcomed change.  As I said before, GU32 is still a month away and there's much tweaking to be done.  I appreciate the fact that everyone is so passionate about playing a Ranger and wants to make them the best they can be.  We are still discussing ammo quality, weapon quality and how they should interact with damage done by auto-attack and combat arts.  The book is by no means closed on this subject, so please be patient and continue to provide constructive feedback.  We are listening.
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Old 02-02-2007, 12:09 AM   #87
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EQ2Magroo wrote:

I'm not sure why the ammo is flagged as legendary, all other types of gathered arrows are just no-flag. Once people can level to 80 having the ammo as Legendary could cause some problems. It would completely destroy the arrow market at T8 (haha, stop laughing I know it's funny but I'm serious) and make the T8 summoned arrow spell pointless.




I doubt seriously that 3 items that drop off of two the hardest raid mobs in KOS in a restricted access raid zone would ruin any type of economy.  It would mean that us raiding rangers that worked hard enough and got lucky enough to get one of these Bows would have to wait until there is a Level 80 Fabled bow that summoned Level 80 Legendary arrows to get an upgrade and I'm fine with that, but it hardly affects the Economy in any grand way.   On all of Antonia Bayle I know of less than a dozen Bazkul ( I would assume the real number to be no more than two dozen)  Hardly enough out of the Thousands of Arrow users on the servers to make a dent in the economy. 
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Old 02-02-2007, 12:19 AM   #88
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sparql wrote:

We don't have consumables, and we also don't have any decent auto attack.  Give me a method of auto attack that I can do from range and I'd gladly pay for consumables.

The only reason you don't have a decent auto-attack is because you don't use your auto-attack.  If they gave Rangers the ability to use their ranged arts while standing within melee range (like mages), we'd all be up close and personal with the mobs almost all of the time.  And don't give me the excuse you that you wear cloth.  We get one-shotted just like you. We just look better because we wear chain.

It's easy to say you'll gladly pay for consumables.  But, actually dishing out the 8-10 plat a week to raid is whole different story.  We've all heard it before.

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Old 02-02-2007, 12:28 AM   #89
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Ok, so it boils down to this.  Bottom line, in order to maximise our dps, we will STILL have to spend money on arrows. 

Or we can NOT buy and fight strictly with CA's and summoned arrows and really fall off the dps radar.  Yes, I said not buy arrows.  Daunting concept I know.  So daunting as to be considered unthinkable.  Yet, let it simmer on the back burner a minute, and lets look at how our summoned arrows cost nothing but time.  Now those poisons and potions can jump to the top of our expenditure list.  I really feel sad for the woodworkers though, as they realize that all those stacks of ammo sit taking up space in the broker boxes, because they are being sold to the poorest class (money wise) overall I think in Everquest.  Depressing.  But wait you say, this is such a better deal for us Rangers!  We won't be spending as MUCH money!  Are you sure about that?  Yes our overall rate of arrow usage will go down when CA's stop consuming ammunition, but it doesn't stop it altogether, and thus we will still be buying arrows.  It will just take a bit longer to spend the same amount.  Or will it?  What controls the market price?  Demand.  Availability. Ease of manufacturing.  Now toss in the different tier levels and unequal disparity of arrow users at different tiers, and it isn't an equation with a simple straightforward answer. Also, with three different types of arrows, which one will be more in demand than the others?  From the lower levels, I would say bodkin every time.  Do slashing and crushing damage make THAT much difference when fighting a mob?  What would be the advantages of carrying such?  Or what will happen when a particular brand becomes unavailable?  Will we have to tell our group 'Sorry, they were out of Bodkin arrows on the broker, so I only did x amount of damage instead of Y damage'.  A wealthy ranger will have an advantage over a nonwealthy ranger in this scenario as well, simply because they can afford more and better.

I am encouraged that solutions are being searched for, but I'm not exactly happy.  This isn't the Ultimate solution to solve our ammo woes, and I think it has some hidden pitfalls as well.  Please don't implement these changes without some really serious consideration to the factors that will come into play.  Don't reduce the damage of our summoned arrows or even vendor arrows.  That is punishing our class for no reason whatsoever.

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Old 02-02-2007, 12:32 AM   #90
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Rothgar1 wrote:
Since my original post is being picked apart due to my statement about auto-attack damage please let me rephrase it.  I never meant to imply that auto-attack wasn't a signficant part of the damage, but that it was not the majority of our damage.  Combat Arts still make up the largest part of a Ranger's DPS.  The whole point of this statement was to say that a slight dps decrease for summoned arrows on auto-attack will not have a huge overall impact.   You will never be required to purchase arrows from a crafter, its just an option that you have that other classes don't get in order to improve your dps. 

Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.

I'm glad to hear that for most people this is a welcomed change.  As I said before, GU32 is still a month away and there's much tweaking to be done.  I appreciate the fact that everyone is so passionate about playing a Ranger and wants to make them the best they can be. 

We are still discussing ammo quality, weapon quality and how they should interact with damage done by auto-attack and combat arts.  The book is by no means closed on this subject, so please be patient and continue to provide constructive feedback.  We are listening.




I doubt anyone has tried using the rounded arrows lately because:

  1. Expensive to make
  2. Extremely time consuming to make.

As I stated in the auto-attack damage thread. Any decrease to the summoned arrows damage output is a NERF that FORCES rangers to purchase their primary form of damage (arrows) in order to maintain their CURRENT DPS levels.

So it's an option for us to PURCHASE our Primary form of damage. No, it looks like it might be a requirement. Other classes don't have this choice? True, and do you know why? Because they're not forced to make this choice. Our choice is simple; Deal subpar damage or spend money/time to deal the same DPS that other classes are not forced to pay for.

BTW are these changes also going to affect throwing weapons?

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