Tank threat output

Arclite · 10-28-2016, 09:59 PM

DEVs please keep all fighters in mind with the conversion to high potency/crit bonus items and/or any changes to AAs that may be made. We (i.e. tanks) need to be on par with the rest of the classes in keeping aggro.

Personally at this point i would prefer a new stat just for tanks that can be used to keep threat output in check regardless of our potency/crit bonus but that is just me.

Silzin · 10-29-2016, 12:55 AM

I think part of the problem for tank threat was the Confection abilities, and that looks like it is getting fixed. the 2nd is that tanks need to be able to do more threat or Damage. its more fun for tanks if we can do more DPS,.. Also i dont see the sustained Over all threat output to be the problem, its when dpsers go into their big dps chains most tanks can not keep up.

10-29-2016, 01:21 AM

Big dps chains should be followed with the AA threat dump/position drop ability, arcane bewilderment for casters, don't recall offhand what it is for scouts

This is not to say that tank threat output shouldn't be given a good hard look to make sure it's keeping up with expected dps output.

duckster · 10-29-2016, 02:42 AM

A possible solution to this is to maybe rework the prestive aa for wdb since we appear to be moving away from auto attack being the main dps element to all classes.

An alternative could make a threat increaser(proc) based on sta if tank and a dethreat if non tank. Just throwing it out there as an idea but there are many ways to help with threat ingame currently but this could be another option.

10-29-2016, 06:10 AM

I like this.

Arclite · 10-30-2016, 08:56 AM

Specifically beastlords, to my understanding have little or no de-hate/threat or hate dump abilities. All that with the above mentioned. I simply have lost the strength to argue for the dps vs hate for tanks. Just do these plaster fixes and be done with it.

Genghes · 11-01-2016, 11:12 PM

Strength currently effects a fighters threat amount

Genghes · 11-01-2016, 11:14 PM

I'm curious to see agro next time we beta raid with the new conversions. I'll let ya know the outcome

11-02-2016, 12:27 PM

Beastlords get 2 threat dumps, one of which is aoe which is nice but really sucks on fights like captains and kralutus because their feet are on a level that can't be seen and therefor can not be hit. Most fights are manageable with these two dumps when the reuse rune is procing properly. I have been in more than a few fights though where I would hit a dump halfway through my big chain and then 2nd at the end of the chain only to drop to 85 and have to hope that my auto attacks didn't push me over before the reuse timers where back up. Nothing more frustrating for a t1 than to do nothing because a flick will rip agro and kill you. I have not been able to test the new conversions in raid yet so hopefully this will give the tanks some padding but the way my stats are looking I highly doubt it. Some kind of boost or a bl transfer or transfer on all tanks not just Pali/guard is really needed. Bl transfer would be perfect since we do well in a main tank group setting buff wise.

11-02-2016, 01:29 PM

btw potency is only affecting taunts in ability tooltips if <10k as far as I know which i think is bugged, only did a quick test for this, but there is something wrong when you reach that point

Genghes · 11-02-2016, 01:42 PM

The additional hit of threat was removed from all tanks taunts on both beta and live

Arclite · 11-05-2016, 01:23 PM

/bump

I could start another thread about the busy work involved in grinding some stats going in to the next expansion but would still like this to be addressed in a meaningful manner. I think the last beta raid i did was bugged for me because my tank could only manage 5 mil dps per named fight with 11k potency (down from 30 mil before the deity point system and prestige changes were made) whereas my other counterpart was doing 15ml, not sure what was happening but I am sincerely hoping my toon was broken so a new copy is now ready for testing. A nightmare to maintain aggro to say the least.

It is all about maxing out certain stats these days which I wholeheartedly resent. It all feels like Stats > skill now, yes you can say that has been always the case but not to this extent. Stat inflation is currently out of control. The deity point bonus system in the long term is going to come back and bite us. I was doing a quick math yesterday and found out that anywhere between 30-50 points in deity pot is going to give a massive bonus to an item that has base 900 potency. Yes cb has a ceiling but with prestige conversion that should technically settle things down but I feel pity for any new player levelling a tank or a returning player.

I simply do not know how all this will affect tanks in general but the forecast currently looks gloomy, more so because the DEVs remain silent on the matter.

I also want a comprehensive break down of each stat by a DEV like it was done by Rothgar years ago because my estimates on stats, and by extension most other players, are still based on that. I think after a long time (been playing/tanking for over 11 years) I do not feel happy going into the next expansion, may be its age or some other variable but as it stands I would not hesitate to venture a guess that many other players who have tanked this long also feel the same.

Genghes · 11-05-2016, 02:48 PM

some of the damage issue could possible be from the following:
* combat mit
* ToT procs from your weapons are not getting the full benefit of potency/cb like the KA Beta weapons are
* Resolve (if you dont have much less than required)
* New conversions from prestige

I know i gained about 1500 potency, but lost about 600~ cb in the process. Right now out of the gate this sucks, but stick with it because in the long run the new conversions will net more overall gain. The issue right now on beta is that the dps people are being reckless in some instances because they too are learning how to best use the ascension abilities. I believe everything should balance out once KA goes live and everyone gains stats and gear at the same level.

Stick it out, it'll get better

11-05-2016, 03:38 PM

The best fix would be a hate gain component that grows with potency on everything the tanks have on their hotbars. Out of all my tanks I think this is most noticeable on the zerker. Every tank needs this attached to all their AOE's and single target CA's. We're just not pumping out enough threat in relation to the effect the potency push has had on mages and scouts. Oh, and don't get me started on mimic...

On beta I'm seeing healers spike 325 mil on the pull from their weapon proces before I even get the mob in position. Irritating. Since there's only a handful of procs maybe it would be fastest to jsut add some kind of threat reduction or deagro to Decisive Strike, Devestation Strike, etc. Have it say "if not tank".

11-05-2016, 04:37 PM

If I remember right, they modified threat output based on stamina during TOV era, and that helped out tremendously. I think it's time for another readjustment like that.

11-05-2016, 04:44 PM

If you are having hate problems, then you are doing it wrong.#learntotank #*****atdpsthatcan'tplayright

11-05-2016, 04:52 PM

And here we go...

Genghes · 11-05-2016, 05:32 PM

based off of strength Smile

Genghes · 11-05-2016, 05:33 PM

Lol I'll bite, which tank do you play and in what guild
You're right though, dps need to learn their limitations to much pew pew could cause problems depending on the tank

11-05-2016, 05:41 PM

Talduke said: ↑

“Beastlords get 2 threat dumps, one of which is aoe which is nice but really sucks on fights like captains and kralutus because their feet are on a level that can't be seen and therefor can not be hit. Most fights are manageable with these two dumps when the reuse rune is procing properly. I have been in more than a few fights though where I would hit a dump halfway through my big chain and then 2nd at the end of the chain only to drop to 85 and have to hope that my auto attacks didn't push me over before the reuse timers where back up. Nothing more frustrating for a t1 than to do nothing because a flick will rip agro and kill you. I have not been able to test the new conversions in raid yet so hopefully this will give the tanks some padding but the way my stats are looking I highly doubt it. Some kind of boost or a bl transfer or transfer on all tanks not just Pali/guard is really needed. Bl transfer would be perfect since we do well in a main tank group setting buff wise.”

Every tank does have access to a transfer....put a solid assassin in g1 and your aggro problems should be minimal. To give a BL a hate transfer on top of their ridiculous dps numbers is an awful idea.

Genghes · 11-05-2016, 05:49 PM

yeah, bl arent suppose to be able to dump their hate. Its part of the balance

11-08-2016, 10:45 PM

Well as it sits in beta tests the average fight looks like this for me. We pull, I charge savagery with hawk eye while tanks build agro. I start my rotation and jump to 80s with non primals. Ravaging hits and I dump 2 primals and have a hate dropped qued hoping it lands before I die. Drop two more primals with the 2nd hate drop qued. At this point even after both position drops I'm still around 80-90 and I sit there and do nothing watch it slowly climb with wep proc damage. Yay a reset I hit a hate drop and dagger storm... Oh crap I'm back at 90. Ravaging procs and I hit 1 primal and my last hate drop and wait for another reset. I'm sorry but as a dps doing nothing for long periods of time praying auto attack dosnt rip hate while you wait for a reset is just dumb. My gear at the time of the described scenario was almost all tot with only new weps and maybe gloves from adv solo. Tanks either need a big boost in hate or heavy dps need some better transfers/better positional drops like a 2 or 3 position. I'm half tempted to buy a slip and eat the resolve drop so I can actually play my class.

11-09-2016, 01:32 AM

Talduke said: ↑

“Well as it sits in beta tests the average fight looks like this for me. We pull, I charge savagery with hawk eye while tanks build agro. I start my rotation and jump to 80s with non primals. Ravaging hits and I dump 2 primals and have a hate dropped qued hoping it lands before I die. Drop two more primals with the 2nd hate drop qued. At this point even after both position drops I'm still around 80-90 and I sit there and do nothing watch it slowly climb with wep proc damage. Yay a reset I hit a hate drop and dagger storm... Oh crap I'm back at 90. Ravaging procs and I hit 1 primal and my last hate drop and wait for another reset. I'm sorry but as a dps doing nothing for long periods of time praying auto attack dosnt rip hate while you wait for a reset is just dumb. My gear at the time of the described scenario was almost all tot with only new weps and maybe gloves from adv solo. Tanks either need a big boost in hate or heavy dps need some better transfers/better positional drops like a 2 or 3 position. I'm half tempted to buy a slip and eat the resolve drop so I can actually play my class.”

This is how live goes for me without amends. #feelsbadman

Errrorr · 11-09-2016, 02:57 PM

If only other support classes had abilities that could reduce a BLs threat position. That'd be almost as cool as a support class having an ability to transfer large amounts of threat to a tank.

Arclite · 11-10-2016, 03:18 PM

/bump

Arclite · 11-10-2016, 03:41 PM

I have been testing beta raids and the trend of high potency (now with high crit bonus) and hp continues. On my guard im at 10 mil self buffed hp with 2 bolster charms, almost 14k potency (in off stance) and touching 3.2k cb bonus with a dps AA spec. All of which by the way translates to nothing in raids with high combat mit mobs. Enter ascension classes and some mobs that require epic 2.0.

Even now with old procs able to crit, the disparity between tank dps (and hence threat output) and dps classes is immense.
Moreover, I just do not see how mitigation/block is going to fit in all of this. I suppose you expect tanks to take mit/block from armor and go all cb/pot/ab mid on the jewellery side of things? Obvious enough but not what I want as a tank.

11-10-2016, 05:35 PM

LOL?

Genghes · 11-11-2016, 08:58 AM

It's no longer funny what I was trying to do lol

10-29-2016, 06:10 AM	#5
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	duckster said: ↑ “A possible solution to this is to maybe rework the prestive aa for wdb since we appear to be moving away from auto attack being the main dps element to all classes. An alternative could make a threat increaser(proc) based on sta if tank and a dethreat if non tank. Just throwing it out there as an idea but there are many ways to help with threat ingame currently but this could be another option.” I like this.

11-01-2016, 11:12 PM	#7
Genghes Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	duckster said: ↑ “A possible solution to this is to maybe rework the prestive aa for wdb since we appear to be moving away from auto attack being the main dps element to all classes. An alternative could make a threat increaser(proc) based on sta if tank and a dethreat if non tank. Just throwing it out there as an idea but there are many ways to help with threat ingame currently but this could be another option.” Strength currently effects a fighters threat amount

11-05-2016, 04:52 PM	#17
ZUES Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	Proen said: ↑ “If you are having hate problems, then you are doing it wrong.#learntotank #*****atdpsthatcan'tplayright” And here we go...

11-05-2016, 05:32 PM	#18
Genghes Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Mickeyroon said: ↑ “If I remember right, they modified threat output based on stamina during TOV era, and that helped out tremendously. I think it's time for another readjustment like that.” based off of strength

11-05-2016, 05:33 PM	#19
Genghes Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Proen said: ↑ “If you are having hate problems, then you are doing it wrong.#learntotank #*****atdpsthatcan'tplayright” Lol I'll bite, which tank do you play and in what guild You're right though, dps need to learn their limitations to much pew pew could cause problems depending on the tank

10-28-2016, 09:59 PM	#1
Arclite Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	DEVs please keep all fighters in mind with the conversion to high potency/crit bonus items and/or any changes to AAs that may be made. We (i.e. tanks) need to be on par with the rest of the classes in keeping aggro. Personally at this point i would prefer a new stat just for tanks that can be used to keep threat output in check regardless of our potency/crit bonus but that is just me.

10-29-2016, 12:55 AM	#2
Silzin Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	I think part of the problem for tank threat was the Confection abilities, and that looks like it is getting fixed. the 2nd is that tanks need to be able to do more threat or Damage. its more fun for tanks if we can do more DPS,.. Also i dont see the sustained Over all threat output to be the problem, its when dpsers go into their big dps chains most tanks can not keep up.

10-29-2016, 01:21 AM	#3
Curmudgeon Member Posts: n/a	Big dps chains should be followed with the AA threat dump/position drop ability, arcane bewilderment for casters, don't recall offhand what it is for scouts This is not to say that tank threat output shouldn't be given a good hard look to make sure it's keeping up with expected dps output.

10-29-2016, 02:42 AM	#4
duckster Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	A possible solution to this is to maybe rework the prestive aa for wdb since we appear to be moving away from auto attack being the main dps element to all classes. An alternative could make a threat increaser(proc) based on sta if tank and a dethreat if non tank. Just throwing it out there as an idea but there are many ways to help with threat ingame currently but this could be another option.

10-30-2016, 08:56 AM	#6
Arclite Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Specifically beastlords, to my understanding have little or no de-hate/threat or hate dump abilities. All that with the above mentioned. I simply have lost the strength to argue for the dps vs hate for tanks. Just do these plaster fixes and be done with it.

11-01-2016, 11:14 PM	#8
Genghes Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	I'm curious to see agro next time we beta raid with the new conversions. I'll let ya know the outcome

11-02-2016, 12:27 PM	#9
Talduke Member Posts: n/a	Beastlords get 2 threat dumps, one of which is aoe which is nice but really sucks on fights like captains and kralutus because their feet are on a level that can't be seen and therefor can not be hit. Most fights are manageable with these two dumps when the reuse rune is procing properly. I have been in more than a few fights though where I would hit a dump halfway through my big chain and then 2nd at the end of the chain only to drop to 85 and have to hope that my auto attacks didn't push me over before the reuse timers where back up. Nothing more frustrating for a t1 than to do nothing because a flick will rip agro and kill you. I have not been able to test the new conversions in raid yet so hopefully this will give the tanks some padding but the way my stats are looking I highly doubt it. Some kind of boost or a bl transfer or transfer on all tanks not just Pali/guard is really needed. Bl transfer would be perfect since we do well in a main tank group setting buff wise.

11-02-2016, 01:29 PM	#10
Zelox Member Posts: n/a	btw potency is only affecting taunts in ability tooltips if <10k as far as I know which i think is bugged, only did a quick test for this, but there is something wrong when you reach that point

11-02-2016, 01:42 PM	#11
Genghes Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	The additional hit of threat was removed from all tanks taunts on both beta and live

11-05-2016, 01:23 PM	#12
Arclite Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	/bump I could start another thread about the busy work involved in grinding some stats going in to the next expansion but would still like this to be addressed in a meaningful manner. I think the last beta raid i did was bugged for me because my tank could only manage 5 mil dps per named fight with 11k potency (down from 30 mil before the deity point system and prestige changes were made) whereas my other counterpart was doing 15ml, not sure what was happening but I am sincerely hoping my toon was broken so a new copy is now ready for testing. A nightmare to maintain aggro to say the least. It is all about maxing out certain stats these days which I wholeheartedly resent. It all feels like Stats > skill now, yes you can say that has been always the case but not to this extent. Stat inflation is currently out of control. The deity point bonus system in the long term is going to come back and bite us. I was doing a quick math yesterday and found out that anywhere between 30-50 points in deity pot is going to give a massive bonus to an item that has base 900 potency. Yes cb has a ceiling but with prestige conversion that should technically settle things down but I feel pity for any new player levelling a tank or a returning player. I simply do not know how all this will affect tanks in general but the forecast currently looks gloomy, more so because the DEVs remain silent on the matter. I also want a comprehensive break down of each stat by a DEV like it was done by Rothgar years ago because my estimates on stats, and by extension most other players, are still based on that. I think after a long time (been playing/tanking for over 11 years) I do not feel happy going into the next expansion, may be its age or some other variable but as it stands I would not hesitate to venture a guess that many other players who have tanked this long also feel the same.

11-05-2016, 02:48 PM	#13
Genghes Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	some of the damage issue could possible be from the following: * combat mit * ToT procs from your weapons are not getting the full benefit of potency/cb like the KA Beta weapons are * Resolve (if you dont have much less than required) * New conversions from prestige I know i gained about 1500 potency, but lost about 600~ cb in the process. Right now out of the gate this sucks, but stick with it because in the long run the new conversions will net more overall gain. The issue right now on beta is that the dps people are being reckless in some instances because they too are learning how to best use the ascension abilities. I believe everything should balance out once KA goes live and everyone gains stats and gear at the same level. Stick it out, it'll get better

11-05-2016, 03:38 PM	#14
ZUES Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	The best fix would be a hate gain component that grows with potency on everything the tanks have on their hotbars. Out of all my tanks I think this is most noticeable on the zerker. Every tank needs this attached to all their AOE's and single target CA's. We're just not pumping out enough threat in relation to the effect the potency push has had on mages and scouts. Oh, and don't get me started on mimic... On beta I'm seeing healers spike 325 mil on the pull from their weapon proces before I even get the mob in position. Irritating. Since there's only a handful of procs maybe it would be fastest to jsut add some kind of threat reduction or deagro to Decisive Strike, Devestation Strike, etc. Have it say "if not tank".

11-05-2016, 04:37 PM	#15
Mickeyroon New Member Posts: n/a	If I remember right, they modified threat output based on stamina during TOV era, and that helped out tremendously. I think it's time for another readjustment like that.

11-05-2016, 04:44 PM	#16
Proen New Member Posts: n/a	If you are having hate problems, then you are doing it wrong.#learntotank #*****atdpsthatcan'tplayright

11-05-2016, 05:41 PM	#20
kluxor Active Member Posts: n/a	Talduke said: ↑ “Beastlords get 2 threat dumps, one of which is aoe which is nice but really sucks on fights like captains and kralutus because their feet are on a level that can't be seen and therefor can not be hit. Most fights are manageable with these two dumps when the reuse rune is procing properly. I have been in more than a few fights though where I would hit a dump halfway through my big chain and then 2nd at the end of the chain only to drop to 85 and have to hope that my auto attacks didn't push me over before the reuse timers where back up. Nothing more frustrating for a t1 than to do nothing because a flick will rip agro and kill you. I have not been able to test the new conversions in raid yet so hopefully this will give the tanks some padding but the way my stats are looking I highly doubt it. Some kind of boost or a bl transfer or transfer on all tanks not just Pali/guard is really needed. Bl transfer would be perfect since we do well in a main tank group setting buff wise.” Every tank does have access to a transfer....put a solid assassin in g1 and your aggro problems should be minimal. To give a BL a hate transfer on top of their ridiculous dps numbers is an awful idea.

11-05-2016, 05:49 PM	#21
Genghes Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	yeah, bl arent suppose to be able to dump their hate. Its part of the balance

11-08-2016, 10:45 PM	#22
Talduke Member Posts: n/a	Well as it sits in beta tests the average fight looks like this for me. We pull, I charge savagery with hawk eye while tanks build agro. I start my rotation and jump to 80s with non primals. Ravaging hits and I dump 2 primals and have a hate dropped qued hoping it lands before I die. Drop two more primals with the 2nd hate drop qued. At this point even after both position drops I'm still around 80-90 and I sit there and do nothing watch it slowly climb with wep proc damage. Yay a reset I hit a hate drop and dagger storm... Oh crap I'm back at 90. Ravaging procs and I hit 1 primal and my last hate drop and wait for another reset. I'm sorry but as a dps doing nothing for long periods of time praying auto attack dosnt rip hate while you wait for a reset is just dumb. My gear at the time of the described scenario was almost all tot with only new weps and maybe gloves from adv solo. Tanks either need a big boost in hate or heavy dps need some better transfers/better positional drops like a 2 or 3 position. I'm half tempted to buy a slip and eat the resolve drop so I can actually play my class.

11-09-2016, 01:32 AM	#23
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	Talduke said: ↑ “Well as it sits in beta tests the average fight looks like this for me. We pull, I charge savagery with hawk eye while tanks build agro. I start my rotation and jump to 80s with non primals. Ravaging hits and I dump 2 primals and have a hate dropped qued hoping it lands before I die. Drop two more primals with the 2nd hate drop qued. At this point even after both position drops I'm still around 80-90 and I sit there and do nothing watch it slowly climb with wep proc damage. Yay a reset I hit a hate drop and dagger storm... Oh crap I'm back at 90. Ravaging procs and I hit 1 primal and my last hate drop and wait for another reset. I'm sorry but as a dps doing nothing for long periods of time praying auto attack dosnt rip hate while you wait for a reset is just dumb. My gear at the time of the described scenario was almost all tot with only new weps and maybe gloves from adv solo. Tanks either need a big boost in hate or heavy dps need some better transfers/better positional drops like a 2 or 3 position. I'm half tempted to buy a slip and eat the resolve drop so I can actually play my class.” This is how live goes for me without amends. #feelsbadman

11-09-2016, 02:57 PM	#24
Errrorr Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	If only other support classes had abilities that could reduce a BLs threat position. That'd be almost as cool as a support class having an ability to transfer large amounts of threat to a tank.

11-10-2016, 03:18 PM	#25
Arclite Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	/bump

11-10-2016, 03:41 PM	#26
Arclite Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	I have been testing beta raids and the trend of high potency (now with high crit bonus) and hp continues. On my guard im at 10 mil self buffed hp with 2 bolster charms, almost 14k potency (in off stance) and touching 3.2k cb bonus with a dps AA spec. All of which by the way translates to nothing in raids with high combat mit mobs. Enter ascension classes and some mobs that require epic 2.0. Even now with old procs able to crit, the disparity between tank dps (and hence threat output) and dps classes is immense. Moreover, I just do not see how mitigation/block is going to fit in all of this. I suppose you expect tanks to take mit/block from armor and go all cb/pot/ab mid on the jewellery side of things? Obvious enough but not what I want as a tank.

11-10-2016, 05:35 PM	#27
Brightlyz Active Member Posts: n/a	Genghes said: ↑ “yeah, bl arent suppose to be able to dump their hate. Its part of the balance” LOL?

11-11-2016, 08:58 AM	#28
Genghes Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Brightlyz said: ↑ “LOL?” It's no longer funny what I was trying to do lol