More healer discussion. What a Templar wants...

10-25-2016, 01:20 PM

Moved from where I just posted in another thread where the idea of smaller damage occurring faster was brought up as a reason that shaman were hurt in older expansions. In terms of relevance to beta, what I'm about to say here is the type of class balance change I would like to see for healers. On the equipment I was able to grab after doing 25 solo quests and most of the solo zones, I did notice some increase to hp on gear, but I'm not sure it will be enough when speaking to people who were running heroics and talking about how hard things hit, especially with steep, at least to begin, resolve requirements:

I agree that smaller faster damage is not really the answer. More hp could be an answer, along with better resists on the non-tank classes. Bottom line for what would make all healers feel good in a solo healing situation is to put an end to one-shot kills from trash mobs. There is no reason for it, and it adds a level of cheap difficulty that is frustrating to the point of pushing good healers or potentially good healers out of the game.

Having non-tank classes die instantly from trash aggro also cancels quite a bit of a tank's functionality, as it removes the concept of saving someone from death. Why do rescue taunts even exist if the person who would need rescuing is dead instantly?

There is no reason a dps, utility, or healer should die instantly from a trash attack.

Another way to adjust this aspect of healing, would be to give all healers a full damage protection group ward. From the 3 types of healers I have played, they all have some kind of group ward. Why is my templar group ward purely arcane prevention, but defilers get 2 massive group wards against all damage? Yes, I understand that the ward is the shaman main type of healing, but it's not like group reactives or heals over time provide the same level of group protection from one shot kills with how hard things currently hit. Since that inequity exists, turning all of our group wards into full damage shields is another way, either on top of or in place of more hp, that could provide some balance to our heal force, especially in solo heal situations.

Also, hurting shaman wards in order to make them less powerful is not the answer. I don't want shaman to be less powerful. I want a situation where people don't have in the backs of their minds 'man, this cleric/druid is ok, but I'd prefer a shaman right now as I make my group.' Maybe it's naive to think that type of situation will ever exist again in this game. Taking away trash ability to one-shot, somehow, would be a step in the right direction.

Thank you for your consideration and discussion. I realize we have been around these issues in other places, and I'm sorry if you're bored of hearing about it from me.

10-25-2016, 01:50 PM

Having both a defiler and a fury I could only agree. Both have excellent gear and the same runes. Playing with the defiler I could have almost any class tank any instances and easily, even with bad gear. Playing the fury almsot any class could die on some trash even the tank. Already some people refuse to invite the fury for some instances.

The game balance have been so broken recently with itemization, the difference between players almost requires to have big wards to compensate their gear on some fights. Some players have 2M hp solo while some have 4-6M on the same class.

The introduction of the ward on the dragon AA tree is a must have for all class, but again depending of the player requipement the ward value differs too greatly, from 1M to 4M of ward. And too many players prefer to spend their AA on other specs. As a fury you could easily tells if your groups members have their ward AA or not, nd you could not ask them to change their AA to play with you.

I really think that all heal classes should have a group ward of all damage, even if limited in power (3-5M) allowing any class to survive on some hits.

10-25-2016, 02:40 PM

With the dragon ward and prestige ability that increase max health depending of i-dont-remember-what and two uzulu, you can easily go from 1.9M hp to 4M + 3M ward.

10-25-2016, 02:55 PM

I still think it is a tough sell to a dps class to get them to change points from dps trees into defensive trees and dps equipment into defensive equipment. Especially since when things are going well in a dungeon, where the tank is holding aggro, the one shot issues become less important. This IS an important issue to healers, because the current one-shot trash attacks create potential fairly large disparity between what a solo healer non-shaman is capable of and a shaman. However, is it important enough to dps to totally change their AA in fairly massive point spread depending on the healer class they are teamed up with? I don't think we'd be able to make that type of shift in how people build their characters.

Actually, thinking about this right now, I feel it is another missed opportunity in the ascension class feature. Increased hp could be a part of what you get from your ascension form, along with potency and damage type. Would add another element of progression to ascension.

10-25-2016, 03:05 PM

This is based entirely on my experience, but the issue with HP is largely in part with infusing. I opened over 1k keys from zek, and tossed all of the infusers on my zerker, and he gained easily 1-2million hp (obv the results might be different if you're not a tank, but it still shows what infusing can do). So those people with the HP differences, it might only be because one has the plat/time to infuse, and the other doesn't (which is a whole other problem).

Trust me, I know there's an issue with healers, and I entirely agree. It's frustrating when things are many, many times easier playing on your lesser geared shaman alt than it is playing on your main (especially if your main is an inquisitor).

In regards to the dragon AA ward, I've started specing into it on my alts I actually play on, and it's pretty helpful (no matter what healer class I am grouped with). Most people probably won't do that, like you said.

Hopefully, they will put the class balance changes on Beta soon (that Caith said they were doing in another thread in this section), so we can see what they are doing. Right now, saying things like "give everyone a group-wide ward because lets make every class a shaman (I'm paraphrasing but that's what I'm reading)" is not the solution.

10-25-2016, 03:08 PM

Charms with increase stats seem to have disapeared in the latest content, and I have not yet seen one in the beta. In my opinion they were too powerfull, even if you needed them to make some fight easier.

10-25-2016, 03:29 PM

captainbeatty451 said: ↑

“Another way to adjust this aspect of healing, would be to give all healers a full damage protection group ward. From the 3 types of healers I have played, they all have some kind of group ward. Why is my templar group ward purely arcane prevention, but defilers get 2 massive group wards against all damage? Yes, I understand that the ward is the shaman main type of healing, but it's not like group reactives or heals over time provide the same level of group protection from one shot kills with how hard things currently hit. Since that inequity exists, turning all of our group wards into full damage shields is another way, either on top of or in place of more hp, that could provide some balance to our heal force, especially in solo heal situations.”

Everyone forgets channelers. We don't even get a full group ward, we have to AA spec for a partial reduction in group damage.

10-25-2016, 03:30 PM

If they are not going to adjust how the game deals damage to the amount of hp classes can reasonably attain, then they have created a situation that heavily favors wards. It is not unreasonable to ask for a few more tools to deal with this ward friendly game situation. I like my templar. I don't want him to be a defiler. I enjoyed my warden. i don't want him to be a cleric or a shaman. However, it would be nice to have my ward that already exists handle all types of damage rather than just arcane or elemental--but really only if the current mechanic of one shot kills remains status quo. If people didn't die instantly from a trash hit, then I have other tools to handle it, and I wouldn't even have started this discussion.

So, I agree that the better fix is to adjust how the game plays so that all healers can heal in their own way and feel just as reliable as someone who can block the damage.

I can also see how adjustments can create other problems, because wards currently are often 4x bigger (in heroic content) than players' hp. So if the hp gets higher, it only will make a shaman's (or templar on single target) job easier. However, I'm fine with that, if it allows other healers to do their job within their own class and playstyle without such obvious and glaring differences.

Hopefully, the discussions we've all had on this issue are being considered, and the game mechanics are already being looked at. I personally don't think healer class balance changes is where we will find the solution. The solution is in the gameplay/hp/resists.

10-25-2016, 04:17 PM

You are right, solo wards of 10M and group wards at 40M are way too high when players hp is around 3M. With the increase of potency it'll be even more unbalanced.

Some people have proposed to increase the hp of players to 20-30M or more, in order to reduce the % ratio ward / hp. But even with the added hp on all items we are far from those values.

Lets see what they have plan with the upcoming class balance.

10-25-2016, 05:00 PM

I'm not overly optimistic about healer balance at this point in the game but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised Smile

quisling · 10-27-2016, 02:37 AM

As far as playing templar...wonder what it would be like to have a buff someone actually wants....

10-27-2016, 12:29 PM

Templar buffs are nice for tanks in terms of staying alive. Aegolism is also nice for the hp boost to the group. But... if you're looking to increase someone's damage output, well that is for sure another story. Honestly, though, people do plenty of dps nowadays. I just want to keep the group alive. There's no reason that shouldn't be the case if the damage to hp ratio was a bit more balanced.

10-27-2016, 08:31 PM

It would be great if all healers were relevant again but I can't see what they can do in the timeframe given with the amount of staff they have.

quisling · 10-28-2016, 01:09 AM

LOL...no offense partner but...Aegolism is completely irrelevant. That buff is about a .8 % boost in health....

10-31-2016, 12:13 AM

What my templar wants: more reactive triggers per cast and with an attached one-shot prevent as long as triggers are on.

What my druid wants: substantial DR as long as HoTs are maintained.

What my shaman wants: Removal of bleed through.

What my channeler wants: vector to be aoe instead of cone.

Daalilama · 11-02-2016, 12:57 AM

Hmm what templas want...will think on this as I run off to run a raid and maybe post afterwards.

Daalilama · 11-03-2016, 05:57 AM

Hmm after thinking about it how about the dev staff review the last round of class feedback forums for what was and to some extent still is relevant suggestions to adjust the templars myself and others helped to contribute about 5-6 pages of that feedback that went nowhere...after thats done a review of the logic path which brought us to have Bleedthrough as a "balance" adjustment for non-shamans and finally how about naming the dev that plays (as in daily) a non shaman healer in current content that thought Bleedthrough was a brillant idea.....utter silence to begin in 3...2...1..

11-03-2016, 06:25 AM

My main is a mystic, and I want to see healer balance restored such that any class of healer, well-played, can heal a reasonable group in a reasonable heroic zone, not just a shaman. The "most mobs have big enough hits to one-shot anyone besides a tank" mechanic is the main problem. I want to be "main healer" because I'm a good healer, not just because I happen to be the only shaman.

Aside from specific strats on specific mobs/names, a normally-geared player should not have to fear getting one-shot by anything other than a raid mob. Yes, DPS drawing aggro and not dumping it should still be punishing - but most healing should be about total HPS over the course of the fight, not just "did tank have something up/was there a big enough ward on the tank". Currently, most druids HoT ticks can probably fully heal most characters - *if* they are alive to be healed. Likewise for reactives.

Suggestion - increase the HP pools by 2x-3x (or enough to not have a typical non-tank get one-shot), and make (heroic) fights last long enough to be a test of healer "throughput" rather than "biggest ward". Give healers a chance to put a heal on the mob's target, or the tank to rescue, after a memwipe.

10-25-2016, 02:55 PM	#4
captainbeatty451 Active Member Posts: n/a	Fleurs said: ↑ “With the dragon ward and prestige ability that increase max health depending of i-dont-remember-what and two uzulu, you can easily go from 1.9M hp to 4M + 3M ward.” I still think it is a tough sell to a dps class to get them to change points from dps trees into defensive trees and dps equipment into defensive equipment. Especially since when things are going well in a dungeon, where the tank is holding aggro, the one shot issues become less important. This IS an important issue to healers, because the current one-shot trash attacks create potential fairly large disparity between what a solo healer non-shaman is capable of and a shaman. However, is it important enough to dps to totally change their AA in fairly massive point spread depending on the healer class they are teamed up with? I don't think we'd be able to make that type of shift in how people build their characters. Actually, thinking about this right now, I feel it is another missed opportunity in the ascension class feature. Increased hp could be a part of what you get from your ascension form, along with potency and damage type. Would add another element of progression to ascension.

10-25-2016, 03:08 PM	#6
Moss New Member Posts: n/a	Fleurs said: ↑ “With the dragon ward and prestige ability that increase max health depending of i-dont-remember-what and two uzulu, you can easily go from 1.9M hp to 4M + 3M ward.” Charms with increase stats seem to have disapeared in the latest content, and I have not yet seen one in the beta. In my opinion they were too powerfull, even if you needed them to make some fight easier.

10-25-2016, 03:29 PM	#7
Lojaak Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	captainbeatty451 said: ↑ “Another way to adjust this aspect of healing, would be to give all healers a full damage protection group ward. From the 3 types of healers I have played, they all have some kind of group ward. Why is my templar group ward purely arcane prevention, but defilers get 2 massive group wards against all damage? Yes, I understand that the ward is the shaman main type of healing, but it's not like group reactives or heals over time provide the same level of group protection from one shot kills with how hard things currently hit. Since that inequity exists, turning all of our group wards into full damage shields is another way, either on top of or in place of more hp, that could provide some balance to our heal force, especially in solo heal situations.” Everyone forgets channelers. We don't even get a full group ward, we have to AA spec for a partial reduction in group damage.

10-25-2016, 04:17 PM	#9
Moss New Member Posts: n/a	captainbeatty451 said: ↑ “So, I agree that the better fix is to adjust how the game plays so that all healers can heal in their own way and feel just as reliable as someone who can block the damage.” You are right, solo wards of 10M and group wards at 40M are way too high when players hp is around 3M. With the increase of potency it'll be even more unbalanced. Some people have proposed to increase the hp of players to 20-30M or more, in order to reduce the % ratio ward / hp. But even with the added hp on all items we are far from those values. Lets see what they have plan with the upcoming class balance.

10-27-2016, 12:29 PM	#12
captainbeatty451 Active Member Posts: n/a	quisling said: ↑ “As far as playing templar...wonder what it would be like to have a buff someone actually wants....” Templar buffs are nice for tanks in terms of staying alive. Aegolism is also nice for the hp boost to the group. But... if you're looking to increase someone's damage output, well that is for sure another story. Honestly, though, people do plenty of dps nowadays. I just want to keep the group alive. There's no reason that shouldn't be the case if the damage to hp ratio was a bit more balanced.

10-25-2016, 01:20 PM	#1
captainbeatty451 Active Member Posts: n/a	Moved from where I just posted in another thread where the idea of smaller damage occurring faster was brought up as a reason that shaman were hurt in older expansions. In terms of relevance to beta, what I'm about to say here is the type of class balance change I would like to see for healers. On the equipment I was able to grab after doing 25 solo quests and most of the solo zones, I did notice some increase to hp on gear, but I'm not sure it will be enough when speaking to people who were running heroics and talking about how hard things hit, especially with steep, at least to begin, resolve requirements: I agree that smaller faster damage is not really the answer. More hp could be an answer, along with better resists on the non-tank classes. Bottom line for what would make all healers feel good in a solo healing situation is to put an end to one-shot kills from trash mobs. There is no reason for it, and it adds a level of cheap difficulty that is frustrating to the point of pushing good healers or potentially good healers out of the game. Having non-tank classes die instantly from trash aggro also cancels quite a bit of a tank's functionality, as it removes the concept of saving someone from death. Why do rescue taunts even exist if the person who would need rescuing is dead instantly? There is no reason a dps, utility, or healer should die instantly from a trash attack. Another way to adjust this aspect of healing, would be to give all healers a full damage protection group ward. From the 3 types of healers I have played, they all have some kind of group ward. Why is my templar group ward purely arcane prevention, but defilers get 2 massive group wards against all damage? Yes, I understand that the ward is the shaman main type of healing, but it's not like group reactives or heals over time provide the same level of group protection from one shot kills with how hard things currently hit. Since that inequity exists, turning all of our group wards into full damage shields is another way, either on top of or in place of more hp, that could provide some balance to our heal force, especially in solo heal situations. Also, hurting shaman wards in order to make them less powerful is not the answer. I don't want shaman to be less powerful. I want a situation where people don't have in the backs of their minds 'man, this cleric/druid is ok, but I'd prefer a shaman right now as I make my group.' Maybe it's naive to think that type of situation will ever exist again in this game. Taking away trash ability to one-shot, somehow, would be a step in the right direction. Thank you for your consideration and discussion. I realize we have been around these issues in other places, and I'm sorry if you're bored of hearing about it from me.

10-25-2016, 01:50 PM	#2
Moss New Member Posts: n/a	Having both a defiler and a fury I could only agree. Both have excellent gear and the same runes. Playing with the defiler I could have almost any class tank any instances and easily, even with bad gear. Playing the fury almsot any class could die on some trash even the tank. Already some people refuse to invite the fury for some instances. The game balance have been so broken recently with itemization, the difference between players almost requires to have big wards to compensate their gear on some fights. Some players have 2M hp solo while some have 4-6M on the same class. The introduction of the ward on the dragon AA tree is a must have for all class, but again depending of the player requipement the ward value differs too greatly, from 1M to 4M of ward. And too many players prefer to spend their AA on other specs. As a fury you could easily tells if your groups members have their ward AA or not, nd you could not ask them to change their AA to play with you. I really think that all heal classes should have a group ward of all damage, even if limited in power (3-5M) allowing any class to survive on some hits.

10-25-2016, 02:40 PM	#3
Fleurs Member Posts: n/a	With the dragon ward and prestige ability that increase max health depending of i-dont-remember-what and two uzulu, you can easily go from 1.9M hp to 4M + 3M ward.

10-25-2016, 03:05 PM	#5
Erevis Cale Member Posts: n/a	This is based entirely on my experience, but the issue with HP is largely in part with infusing. I opened over 1k keys from zek, and tossed all of the infusers on my zerker, and he gained easily 1-2million hp (obv the results might be different if you're not a tank, but it still shows what infusing can do). So those people with the HP differences, it might only be because one has the plat/time to infuse, and the other doesn't (which is a whole other problem). Trust me, I know there's an issue with healers, and I entirely agree. It's frustrating when things are many, many times easier playing on your lesser geared shaman alt than it is playing on your main (especially if your main is an inquisitor). In regards to the dragon AA ward, I've started specing into it on my alts I actually play on, and it's pretty helpful (no matter what healer class I am grouped with). Most people probably won't do that, like you said. Hopefully, they will put the class balance changes on Beta soon (that Caith said they were doing in another thread in this section), so we can see what they are doing. Right now, saying things like "give everyone a group-wide ward because lets make every class a shaman (I'm paraphrasing but that's what I'm reading)" is not the solution.

10-25-2016, 03:30 PM	#8
captainbeatty451 Active Member Posts: n/a	If they are not going to adjust how the game deals damage to the amount of hp classes can reasonably attain, then they have created a situation that heavily favors wards. It is not unreasonable to ask for a few more tools to deal with this ward friendly game situation. I like my templar. I don't want him to be a defiler. I enjoyed my warden. i don't want him to be a cleric or a shaman. However, it would be nice to have my ward that already exists handle all types of damage rather than just arcane or elemental--but really only if the current mechanic of one shot kills remains status quo. If people didn't die instantly from a trash hit, then I have other tools to handle it, and I wouldn't even have started this discussion. So, I agree that the better fix is to adjust how the game plays so that all healers can heal in their own way and feel just as reliable as someone who can block the damage. I can also see how adjustments can create other problems, because wards currently are often 4x bigger (in heroic content) than players' hp. So if the hp gets higher, it only will make a shaman's (or templar on single target) job easier. However, I'm fine with that, if it allows other healers to do their job within their own class and playstyle without such obvious and glaring differences. Hopefully, the discussions we've all had on this issue are being considered, and the game mechanics are already being looked at. I personally don't think healer class balance changes is where we will find the solution. The solution is in the gameplay/hp/resists.

10-25-2016, 05:00 PM	#10
Awesomeo Member Posts: n/a	I'm not overly optimistic about healer balance at this point in the game but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised

10-27-2016, 02:37 AM	#11
quisling Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	As far as playing templar...wonder what it would be like to have a buff someone actually wants....

10-27-2016, 08:31 PM	#13
Awesomeo Member Posts: n/a	It would be great if all healers were relevant again but I can't see what they can do in the timeframe given with the amount of staff they have.

10-28-2016, 01:09 AM	#14
quisling Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	LOL...no offense partner but...Aegolism is completely irrelevant. That buff is about a .8 % boost in health....

10-31-2016, 12:13 AM	#15
Montag Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	What my templar wants: more reactive triggers per cast and with an attached one-shot prevent as long as triggers are on. What my druid wants: substantial DR as long as HoTs are maintained. What my shaman wants: Removal of bleed through. What my channeler wants: vector to be aoe instead of cone.

11-02-2016, 12:57 AM	#16
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Hmm what templas want...will think on this as I run off to run a raid and maybe post afterwards.

11-03-2016, 05:57 AM	#17
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Hmm after thinking about it how about the dev staff review the last round of class feedback forums for what was and to some extent still is relevant suggestions to adjust the templars myself and others helped to contribute about 5-6 pages of that feedback that went nowhere...after thats done a review of the logic path which brought us to have Bleedthrough as a "balance" adjustment for non-shamans and finally how about naming the dev that plays (as in daily) a non shaman healer in current content that thought Bleedthrough was a brillant idea.....utter silence to begin in 3...2...1..

11-03-2016, 06:25 AM	#18
Hypozeuxis New Member Posts: n/a	My main is a mystic, and I want to see healer balance restored such that any class of healer, well-played, can heal a reasonable group in a reasonable heroic zone, not just a shaman. The "most mobs have big enough hits to one-shot anyone besides a tank" mechanic is the main problem. I want to be "main healer" because I'm a good healer, not just because I happen to be the only shaman. Aside from specific strats on specific mobs/names, a normally-geared player should not have to fear getting one-shot by anything other than a raid mob. Yes, DPS drawing aggro and not dumping it should still be punishing - but most healing should be about total HPS over the course of the fight, not just "did tank have something up/was there a big enough ward on the tank". Currently, most druids HoT ticks can probably fully heal most characters - if they are alive to be healed. Likewise for reactives. Suggestion - increase the HP pools by 2x-3x (or enough to not have a typical non-tank get one-shot), and make (heroic) fights last long enough to be a test of healer "throughput" rather than "biggest ward". Give healers a chance to put a heal on the mob's target, or the tank to rescue, after a memwipe.