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Old 10-27-2010, 11:20 PM   #1
Strelok7

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With all respect, i disagree what have been done to my class, with all honostly Paladin class got nerfed the hardest. Now not only we can't do damage what SK do but also can't heal like we use to. Now look at that this way, before we could heal and complement for the damage we were lucking. Now SK are way more OP. I love my Paladin class but you took away the only thing that paladins were shining with and took it away. Please help us to regain our back what we always had.

thank you

sincerely Focusblade

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Old 10-28-2010, 02:29 AM   #2
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I don't think Pallys are all that bad, but I do think they should adjust their heals a bit.

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Old 10-28-2010, 05:15 AM   #3
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Pally heals should be altered to "heal like effects" but ones which scale well from solo to raid whatever happens with pally heals there will always be someone shouting "nerf nerf nerf" to any hea which is effective in a raid type enviroment.

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Old 10-28-2010, 01:38 PM   #4
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Boli32 wrote:

Pally heals should be altered to "heal like effects" but ones which scale well from solo to raid whatever happens with pally heals there will always be someone shouting "nerf nerf nerf" to any hea which is effective in a raid type enviroment.

I expect someone would have an issue with any changes, positive changes, to the paladin class now. 

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Old 10-28-2010, 02:22 PM   #5
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[email protected] wrote:

Boli32 wrote:

Pally heals should be altered to "heal like effects" but ones which scale well from solo to raid whatever happens with pally heals there will always be someone shouting "nerf nerf nerf" to any hea which is effective in a raid type enviroment.

I expect someone would have an issue with any changes, positive changes, to the paladin class now. 

honestly I woudl be very happy if they just deleted Amends, Knight's Stance and all our heals were all out of combat; removed all DPS spells; forced us to wear cloth and didnt; allow pallys to earn AAs... just as long as this was all done by the development team discussing with pallys who know how the class works and what it needs instead of lashing out with nerfs as and when someone posts a flawed/biased parse which showcases one of our abilities.

The issue with pallys has and always will be no-one from the devleopment team plays one at least not regually and at a high level. As such they don;t really understand the class its limitations, flaws, drawbacks, faults, and areas which need a tweak and areas which needs adjustment (either up or down).

If this was done for each archetype so each of the classes was fun to play and was abale to fill their role in a raid/group/solo setting THEN you coudl balance the classes tweaking here and there; but not massive changes which effect 1 or 2 classes more than the others such as removing fighters ability to heal crit.

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Old 10-28-2010, 05:44 PM   #6
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Boli32 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Boli32 wrote:

Pally heals should be altered to "heal like effects" but ones which scale well from solo to raid whatever happens with pally heals there will always be someone shouting "nerf nerf nerf" to any hea which is effective in a raid type enviroment.

I expect someone would have an issue with any changes, positive changes, to the paladin class now. 

honestly I woudl be very happy if they just deleted Amends, Knight's Stance and all our heals were all out of combat; removed all DPS spells; forced us to wear cloth and didnt; allow pallys to earn AAs... just as long as this was all done by the development team discussing with pallys who know how the class works and what it needs instead of lashing out with nerfs as and when someone posts a flawed/biased parse which showcases one of our abilities.

The issue with pallys has and always will be no-one from the devleopment team plays one at least not regually and at a high level. As such they don;t really understand the class its limitations, flaws, drawbacks, faults, and areas which need a tweak and areas which needs adjustment (either up or down).

If this was done for each archetype so each of the classes was fun to play and was abale to fill their role in a raid/group/solo setting THEN you coudl balance the classes tweaking here and there; but not massive changes which effect 1 or 2 classes more than the others such as removing fighters ability to heal crit.

On the amends point, befire i played a paladin i thought it was great/OP; however, after playing a paladin for past few months, as my main, I have come to understand it much better.  If amends fails to generate enough hate or we fight a mob that can 'memwipe' amends will not keep the target on us and we do not have near as many instant hate positions as other tanks.  For example my zerker has 3 from TSO tree: 1 fighter, 1 warrior (this one isnt great), 1 AE from zerker, rescue and the zerker AE taunt with mythical buff is positional.

My primary point being, I do not think the very people calling for nerfs for the paladin class have played it or rather have played it enough to truely understand it.  Also blanket nerfs do not solve problems they simply create new ones (ex. crit nerf). Without the proper planning of course, but how do we know this did not fit into the over all improvement of our class.  We have no way of knowing: the devs have been silent on this issue for almost 3 months now?

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Old 10-28-2010, 09:46 PM   #7
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[email protected] wrote:

On the amends point, befire i played a paladin i thought it was great/OP; however, after playing a paladin for past few months, as my main, I have come to understand it much better.  If amends fails to generate enough hate or we fight a mob that can 'memwipe' amends will not keep the target on us and we do not have near as many instant hate positions as other tanks.  For example my zerker has 3 from TSO tree: 1 fighter, 1 warrior (this one isnt great), 1 AE from zerker, rescue and the zerker AE taunt with mythical buff is positional.

My primary point being, I do not think the very people calling for nerfs for the paladin class have played it or rather have played it enough to truely understand it.  Also blanket nerfs do not solve problems they simply create new ones (ex. crit nerf). Without the proper planning of course, but how do we know this did not fit into the over all improvement of our class.  We have no way of knowing: the devs have been silent on this issue for almost 3 months now?

I play max level paladin, zerker, monk and my zerker was guard after the guard buff recently long enough for me to try it out.  different zones cater to the strengths and weaknesses of different classes.  I'm only an instance tank with only instance tank gear (except I broke down and bought the shard of lillsad for my zerker so I had matching 4.0s)  I have tanked all instances with all of my tanks and you know what?  Some are easier than others for different things.

This expac I am very pleased with all of my tanks, they all have solo survivability in case the healer does die, the group dirge/necro or my pally can cast a rez and we don't wipe.  Before this expac, none could do that in instance gear.

Amends isn't a very useful raid tool, but it's amazing if used right in an instance setting.  I don't lack in skill, and I do between 10 and 30k dps depending on group setup and # of mobs pulled, but when I do get that raid geared lock in group doing 45-70k dps, amends makes up for the DPS gap.  And how many heroic mobs memwipe?  The sisters in cella if you kill them too far apart...some names in vigilant, one of the 4 goats in palace.  Amends may not give you instant aggro, but it helps build it up and holy ground is on a much shorter timer than insolence and gives better aggro than jeering onslaught. 

However, speaking of aggro, I don't think any  have it as good as guard's ability to manage the entire group's hate generation.  But every tank has similar, if not better, single target DPS and better multi-target non-encounter DPS.  Paladin has 8 AEs, monk has 3 blue aes plus crane flock for 24 seconds 100% AE, zerker has 6 (??) aes plus 100% ae auto.  Guard gets 40% ae auto plus 2 blue aes, but superior aggro management, 30 second recast group 1 position deaggro. 

Honestly I don't see the heal nerf as being very game breaking for any class.  IME most of the tank heals come from procs as is, and Boli, for you only doing 900 hps in a  fight I think is kinda BS.  I've done 3k depending on the pull and I'm sure you have much better gear than I.   I've also done 400, so it's all situational. 

I think what I'm trying to say is the class isn't as bad off as all these threads seem to make it.  From what I've seen everyone pulls the "the devs don't play my class"  I've seen that in the monk forums, pally, guard, necro, conj, illy forums.  So, the devs are all playing sks, coercer, dirges, templars and assassins, is that what you're trying to say?

However, I have no raid experience to speak of, so I can't say what the big deal is there, but a 10% heal on melee hit with a 40k MA isn't going to do much, or 90 hps from lifetap procs from an sk.  A monk has to be alive to cast his 60% heal, and how often do you die twice in 45 seconds to make full use of their new AA death prevent?  Lay on hands is a nice 6k heal, yeah so what templars get a 23k heal in raid gear, your 6k is instant cast and that much easier to help mitigate the spike dmg.  Also, every item based heal that I've tried so far does still have the chance to crit.  Signets, relics, pots, overclocked lifestone/manastone.  The signets and relics may be one time use only, but with my meager gear they're still critting for 2k on initial cast and almost 1k per tic.  Watching my buffs, I see stonewill procs up almost constantly. 

Anyway, I'm rambling, I want to say too much and not sure how I want to organize my thoughts on this.  But all tank classes could use work, and all tank classes aren't as bad off as everyone wants to portray them.

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Old 10-28-2010, 10:09 PM   #8
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We never said the class was supremely bad off just one aspect needed work, and how are you doing 3k-healing per second sustained? 

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Old 10-29-2010, 04:16 AM   #9
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The issue where the heals are lacking is all in the raiding realm. If you look at the posts that is what each paladin who is raiding says, heals do NOT scale for raiding. Sure w/o heal crit it doesnt affect your solo or group content too much, because the mobs dont hit that hard. It is all in the raid where heals are lacking. At the moment my lay hands is around 10k, in a raid that is ONLY 30% of my health. 30% does not mean much if a mob's aoe hits for around 60%-80% of my health. Then take a look at our primary ward and heal. It heals for about 5% of my health and uses about 4-5% of my power. Power does not scale as health does in raids either, So solo i am at about 10k power in raids it is at most 12k power. Where as health solo i am at 20-21k and health 30k+. I dont mean to argue against you, but the issues which we are asking to have looked at is all within the raiding realm. So to talk about how a paladin heals in group instances, you wont see how it affects the raiding.

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Old 10-29-2010, 05:26 AM   #10
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

On the amends point, befire i played a paladin i thought it was great/OP; however, after playing a paladin for past few months, as my main, I have come to understand it much better.  If amends fails to generate enough hate or we fight a mob that can 'memwipe' amends will not keep the target on us and we do not have near as many instant hate positions as other tanks.  For example my zerker has 3 from TSO tree: 1 fighter, 1 warrior (this one isnt great), 1 AE from zerker, rescue and the zerker AE taunt with mythical buff is positional.

My primary point being, I do not think the very people calling for nerfs for the paladin class have played it or rather have played it enough to truely understand it.  Also blanket nerfs do not solve problems they simply create new ones (ex. crit nerf). Without the proper planning of course, but how do we know this did not fit into the over all improvement of our class.  We have no way of knowing: the devs have been silent on this issue for almost 3 months now?

I play max level paladin, zerker, monk and my zerker was guard after the guard buff recently long enough for me to try it out.  different zones cater to the strengths and weaknesses of different classes.  I'm only an instance tank with only instance tank gear (except I broke down and bought the shard of lillsad for my zerker so I had matching 4.0s)  I have tanked all instances with all of my tanks and you know what?  Some are easier than others for different things.

This expac I am very pleased with all of my tanks, they all have solo survivability in case the healer does die, the group dirge/necro or my pally can cast a rez and we don't wipe.  Before this expac, none could do that in instance gear.

Amends isn't a very useful raid tool, but it's amazing if used right in an instance setting.  I don't lack in skill, and I do between 10 and 30k dps depending on group setup and # of mobs pulled, but when I do get that raid geared lock in group doing 45-70k dps, amends makes up for the DPS gap.  And how many heroic mobs memwipe?  The sisters in cella if you kill them too far apart...some names in vigilant, one of the 4 goats in palace.  Amends may not give you instant aggro, but it helps build it up and holy ground is on a much shorter timer than insolence and gives better aggro than jeering onslaught. 

However, speaking of aggro, I don't think any  have it as good as guard's ability to manage the entire group's hate generation.  But every tank has similar, if not better, single target DPS and better multi-target non-encounter DPS.  Paladin has 8 AEs, monk has 3 blue aes plus crane flock for 24 seconds 100% AE, zerker has 6 (??) aes plus 100% ae auto.  Guard gets 40% ae auto plus 2 blue aes, but superior aggro management, 30 second recast group 1 position deaggro. 

Honestly I don't see the heal nerf as being very game breaking for any class.  IME most of the tank heals come from procs as is, and Boli, for you only doing 900 hps in a  fight I think is kinda BS.  I've done 3k depending on the pull and I'm sure you have much better gear than I.   I've also done 400, so it's all situational. 

I think what I'm trying to say is the class isn't as bad off as all these threads seem to make it.  From what I've seen everyone pulls the "the devs don't play my class"  I've seen that in the monk forums, pally, guard, necro, conj, illy forums.  So, the devs are all playing sks, coercer, dirges, templars and assassins, is that what you're trying to say?

However, I have no raid experience to speak of, so I can't say what the big deal is there, but a 10% heal on melee hit with a 40k MA isn't going to do much, or 90 hps from lifetap procs from an sk.  A monk has to be alive to cast his 60% heal, and how often do you die twice in 45 seconds to make full use of their new AA death prevent?  Lay on hands is a nice 6k heal, yeah so what templars get a 23k heal in raid gear, your 6k is instant cast and that much easier to help mitigate the spike dmg.  Also, every item based heal that I've tried so far does still have the chance to crit.  Signets, relics, pots, overclocked lifestone/manastone.  The signets and relics may be one time use only, but with my meager gear they're still critting for 2k on initial cast and almost 1k per tic.  Watching my buffs, I see stonewill procs up almost constantly. 

Anyway, I'm rambling, I want to say too much and not sure how I want to organize my thoughts on this.  But all tank classes could use work, and all tank classes aren't as bad off as everyone wants to portray them.

I'm guessing you've speced crusader's faith and you used it in cella; that is like comparing tank DPS using the books in palace as an example.

That ability is just not worth the points in raids AT ALL; I only know of a single fight were I woudl even consider using it.

Also... instance tanking is skewed like I said before... give you self a raid healer:

- Shaman; only your wards will count and that's Stonewill, and Aura of Leadership - it is nigh impossible to even attempt to keep up the ward and most of the time you'll be interupted/stunned trying to cast it

- Cleric - most of your heals are from procs and reactives come before directs

- Druid If the druid has any sense they'll be stacking ward proc gear like crazy and there is no way you'll be tankingor takign significant damage with just a druid in the group.

The only times our direct heals are coutned is when we take spike damage... and when the result is a heal which barely registers on your/your group's health you tend to stop even bothing to cast them. my level of gear just means my potency is higher than yours as now the heals don't crit all my crit bonus is worth nothing so the only difference betwene our heals is your heals matter more solo/group than mine do in raids  - kind of flawing the entire argument between removing the ability for pallys to solo/group without a healer in the first place.

Your 400 hps is the norm in raids; which is pretty much Aura of leadership+Stonewill items.

As I pointed out before you can;t really ramble and say its all fine unless you have seen all aspects of play and I can assure you a pally in raids works a lot differently to a pally in instances.

Thus my point in the devs really need to talk to US, and maybe even play a pally on a higher level as our limitations are more apparant in raids.

We're a "tank who heals"... who can't heal and rely on transfers to hold agro... which are overcapped.

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Old 12-27-2010, 01:51 PM   #11
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Though i went paladin after the changes, i can still: Solo some SF heroic zones, tso zones,  can heal, do alot of damage, hold aggro like a MF.. i dont see the problem with paladins here.. alls i see are people complaining about their healing in raids... why does a paladin EVER need to even heal in a raid?..  healer fail? ftl, just saying

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Old 12-27-2010, 05:31 PM   #12
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Xaviour wrote:

Though i went paladin after the changes, i can still: Solo some SF heroic zones, tso zones,  can heal, do alot of damage, hold aggro like a MF.. i dont see the problem with paladins here.. alls i see are people complaining about their healing in raids... why does a paladin EVER need to even heal in a raid?..  healer fail? ftl, just saying

Paladin heals in raids are to deal with spike damage. Such as casting our ward before a big aoe to try and offset some of that damage. Which at the moment it does not offset much. Or casting our group heal to help the healers heal the group back up to full. Spcially since shaman group heals are so crap. Paladins do not get a lot of the other "defensive" type spells that the other classes get BECAUSE we have our heals which are supposed to act as our defensive spells. However in raid they do not. Yes for solo / heroic content our heals are right where they should. However our heals do not scale up to raid lvls where you have about 15k more hp (almost 2X the hp) as well as mobs are hitting a LOT harder. Take mend for instance for a monk. That is a % based heal spell. That scales... Compare that to our lay hands (which costs WAY to much power but that is another issue). Heals for about 10 - 12k. In solo / group content that is about 50% or so of your health. In raid content its about 30% of your health. Does not scale well at all for an "ooh no" emergancy heal.

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Old 12-28-2010, 11:03 AM   #13
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Heals in general need work. They don't gain any benefit from the healer's primary stat, they do gain benefit from primary stat on ALL other classes and they can't crit on fighters but can for literally everyone else including fighter mobs (at least be fair by making fighter mobs unable to crit heal).

Fair is fair. If it does for one, it should for all. Perhaps the next thing to do is make healers unable to crit on damage spells because some healers are doing just plain too much dps? Theres a fury on my server that tanks instances, and I love to heal her with my warden through the instances. She makes a pretty darn good tank, can often times parse between 6-8k dps on single target mobs and 30k+ on "group pulls", and her tanking/agro management is a whole lot less fail than many tanks I've pug'd with.

Adjust problem areas as need be, but this blanket nerf to one type because of extremely poor decisions with mechanics durring the poorly thought out revamp in an attempt to bandaid a terribly broken system is just BS. Make paladin heals a % and be done with it, take the power cost off lay on hands or put the same cost on death touch and be done with it, let shadowknight life taps crit again and adjust them on an individual basis if need be, and finally adjust proc items if they're doing too much heaing (which they are).

Either that, or fix the real problem and go revamp the entire itemization system because theres too much +++++ everywhere on the gear at the top levels.

How does rectally impounding the heal nerf bat up the crusader's butts fix a problem with fundamental mechanics and scaling thats affecting everyone?

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Old 12-28-2010, 11:05 AM   #14
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Ok, but how is DPS? See, I don't want to Tank or Heal, I just like the solo survivability. So how is the DPS?

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Old 12-28-2010, 01:18 PM   #15
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DPS as far as soloing is concerned.... slow.

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Old 12-28-2010, 09:28 PM   #16
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Navshep wrote:

Ok, but how is DPS? See, I don't want to Tank or Heal, I just like the solo survivability. So how is the DPS?

DPS for soling .... Turn auto attack on ..... Do a Holy Ground chain .... cast smite evil cause its 0 pr .... wait for holy ground to come back up for another holy ground chain .... heal as needed..... About 50% of my dmg soloing is auto attack .... vs about 15% in raids is auto attack

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Old 02-23-2011, 11:27 AM   #17
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Navshep wrote:

Ok, but how is DPS? See, I don't want to Tank or Heal, I just like the solo survivability. So how is the DPS?

Pathetic.

Then again, understand I returned to this game Late January 2011 after 5+ years off.

I ran my L50 (Max at the time, AA's didnt exist) to 90 Adv, 75 TS, and 181 AA the day before the expansion.

I also play 3rd shift, so no Fabled or really grouping for me.  Im all MC and Legendary.

I went from being able to kill 1-up yellows (granted, it took time, power had to be up, spells had to be up) but I could do it.

Now, Its about the same killing a Even-Con No Arrow Mobs as it was Yellow 1-Ups..  Except for the power part, thats abhorrently high now, but the heals are on such a crazy cooldown... I find myself asking "Why so much power?"  Ok, take me from 7k power to 17k power.   I'll never use it all, the [Removed for Content] heals are on cooldown for too long.

In a word, Disappointed.   I guess maybe Raid/Fabled Gear Pallies needed the nerf?  I dont know.   But from a "Newb" L90 Pally coming into the expansion...  This sucks

Now, I haven't been back long enough (I think, anyway) to cry foul on getting smacked in the face with the nerf bat.   Especially the hardest hit class (I understand SK's aren't having trouble, weren't they the OP Class?  *shrugs*) without knowing wether or not the class deserved it.

All Im saying is, if they did this with Raid/Fabled Geared Players in mind, they really missed the boat with people who Aren't Raid/Fabled Geared.   This isn't fun anymore, really. 

I don't give up easily, mind you.  Im going to get the quested set from DoV entry quests, and see if that helps..   Here's to hoping it does, or this guy is going to go back into the mothballs or just be my crafting b*tch.

 -Law

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Old 02-24-2011, 01:17 PM   #18
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Yes..SOE passive aggressively nerfed paladins! + casting speed!And..ANd..We can cast our heals on the run!........every 3 days!! [Removed for Content]!?!!? Even without critical heals i could still heal my nuts off! Solo healing a group of under geared toons through cella etc! Now... until I aquire some major reuse... I look and none of my heals are up!!! Im bitter !

Heroic tree reuse here i come!

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Old 02-28-2011, 09:35 PM   #19
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TBH, paladin healing was never the OP part, it was well within reason and if anything was underpowered until you got lots of potency. What was out of control was passive healing via warding and spot heal proc items. Zerkers adrenaline when you had tons of mobs was a perfect example of just how ridiculous it could reach if you played the ability up with it's strengths, but similar to the whole amends QQing people took the most ridiculous examples and cried bloody tears of QQ foo endowed rage pouring out of their ears during their loathing, screaming, soil stained diaper tantrum that it was the normal and it was an outrage that such "beyond ridiculousness" was permitted to exist.

I've seen zerkers parse a fight with 18k hps and after the initial shock wore off I thought to myself "why on earth did I even bother bringing my healer... oh thats right, to rez the hate pulling squishy that runs off elsewhere so the dirge doesn't have to be bothered to stop dpsing to retrieve them." At the same time, I know there are a large number of times when our zerker has gone "oh sh-" and ate dirt because things like adrenaline and proc items just is not going to help against heavy double attacks or getting run over by a train; they only become out of control when you've more or less trivialized the content and can eat the damage without taking much of a health hit. The point where self healing becomes overpowered is that same point for EVERY tank.

In typical SOE fashion, they took a couple of the suggestions that we complained about for years and they nerfed nearly every other part to negate the benefit and much needed changes they had just put in. After the nerfs it renders the buffs moot since it undid the whole reason to do such buffs in the first place and it was purely to satisfy the raging soil stained diaper QQers.

If our heals were going to guzzle power they should have at least had the ability to make an impact when we cast them (although they're only making an impact while people's hp pools are "low" in this expansion and will later not be worth casting once the re-gearing is complete... again...), casting times to be improved so we're not casting half the fight for 3 pathetic heals, and our ward to be more difficult to interrupt because you only have about a 5% success rate in fights even with 100 focus over your current level's base which should put you on square grounds to a level 110 mob. Thats not unreasonable to ask for.

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