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Old 06-08-2007, 01:39 AM   #1
Aeralik

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In GU 36, PvP will be receiving some changes aimed at making player vs player combat somewhat more equitable, especially at the higher levels where fights are frequently far too short and entirely predetermined based solely on your class. We've been testing some new class-by-class, level-by-level fine tuning aimed specifically at resolving issues that are predominant at the high end    In general the higher damage classes like predators, rogues, sorcerers, and summoners will see the most notable reduction in high level PvP damage. Brawlers and druids will be in the middle while bards and the remaining priests and fighters will see the smallest reduction.  Similar changes have been made to resists at the higher levels, which means spells should be more likely to land than they have been in the past.  In addition , a number of classes have had their spells' PvP effects tweaked which you can read about below. Level locking has also been a hot topic on the forums over the past few months.  It's also a very tricky subject to handle.  Gaining equipment and better quality spells is something we encourage players to do and this is something everyone should still strive to do.  Achievements on the other hand can be easily obtained and quickly add to the power of your character.  The extreme cases of this, where people end up with an inordinately large number of achievements for their level, yields them to have an unbeatably strong advantage in PvP combat.  In order to mitigate the effects this, characters will be limited to spending 1.5 times their current level within the achievement trees.  You can still gain points above this limit and spend them later on as you level.  Once these changes go live, all characters who are over the new Achievement Per Level cap will be given the opportunity to respec their points on their first login. The last major change is to the in-combat speed buffs.  These are great skills for PvE when things go wrong.  In PvP though, these skills gave certain classes an easy way to escape any fight that is in progress, much like escape skills did in the past.  Bards will continue to have their in-combat speed enhancements as do any characters that gain them as a racial benefit.  Otherwise these buffs and abilities will suspend while engaged in PvP combat.  Below is a list of the other PvP-Only balance changes that have been made.  Feedback on the upcoming changes is welcome.  However, please try the changes out on the test pvp server before jumping to conclusions on some of the topics.  If you haven't already, you can copy your character using the /testcopy command so that your character arrives there before the changes go to test next week. Please note - The following changes occur in PvP combat only.  PvE functionality of these items and abilities, even on PvP servers, remains as they are today. General
  • Damage was reduced at the higher levels based on class. Rogues, predators, sorcerers and summoners had the greatest reduction.  Druids, enchanters and brawlers fall in the middle while the others had lower amounts of damage reduction.  The goal being to introduce more strategy in PvP at the high end.
  • In combat run speeds will now suspend during PvP cmbat, except for the bard achievement which grants in-combat run speed to Selo's.
  • XP debt has been removed from pvp servers.
  • Added reuse timers to cures when used in a pvp fight
  • Reduced heal amounts slightly to be in line with the damage decreases.
Assassin
  • Reduced the duration of the root effect for the Freezing Strike line
  • Reduced the damage of Assassinate and Decapitate slightly.
Brigand
  • Double up should only work on spells cast in the last second instead of last 2 seconds.
  • Lowered the debuff amount on Devitalize and Dispatch     
  • Reduced the stun duration on the Low Blow line.
Bruiser
  • Reduced the duration of Drag
Coercer
  • Lowered the damage done by Cataclysmic mind and its associated spells.
Fury
  • Reduced the duration of the root line
Monk
  • The Evade achievement should now cause your target to lose its target like scout evade skills do.
Ranger
  • The Hunter's Instinct line will now buff out of combat speed rather than in combat speed.
  • Reduced the duration and range of Hook Arrow
  • Reduced the root duration of the Lung line
  • Reduced the snare duration on the Leg Shot line.
  • Reduced the damage done by the Sniper Shot line slightly
  • Reduced the damage of Rain of Arrows slightly
Necromancer
  • Lowered the duration of control effects on the fighter pet.
Shadowknight
  • Reduced the damage to the Harm Touch line.
Swashbuckler
  • Lowered the damage on Inspired Daring
  • Lowered the damage to En Garde.  It will also now use mitigation and can be dodged, blocked, parried and deflected in PvP combat.
 Warden
  • Reduced the duration of Root and Snare lines.
Wizard
  • Reduced the damage of Ice Comet slightly
  • Reduced the damage of Fusion
Items
  • Reduced the damage and heal on the Signet of Light From Darkness.
  • Lowered the Malicious Assault bonus on the Brigand Interloper's Coat.
  • The effect on the Belt of Gateways has been changed from 100% riposte to 100% parry.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:13 AM   #2
Josgar

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interesting! I dont know alot aobut PVP i think I have one character around level 30ish. what does everything think?
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:22 AM   #3
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Id really like to know what your over all goals are for EQ2 PvP Aeralik.  Every single GU PvP gets hit with the nerf bat, and the last few updates have been pretty big ones imo.  Some changes are good, but I mean u are nerfin some of the most important stuff to some classes ie roots/snares.  Some classes need these to work the duration to do what the class is soppose to.  U can already cure them, everyone can do it.  I just dont see how reducing root/snare durations is gonna make a fight longer.

BTW why arnt Healers heals gettin toned down in PvP combat, seems Druids will be able to out heal anyones dmg now.

Also these Nerfs seem to be focused on Solo PvP, cause in grp/raid alot of this isnt really an issue, if at all any.  U dont get 1-2 Shotted from the heavy hitters.

I dont know, PvP seemed fine to me.  I am now really startin to see the carebear pvp thing ppl been talkin about... SMILEY

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Old 06-08-2007, 02:25 AM   #4
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My BIGGEST problem is that people will stealth up behind me, poison me w/ blurred vision and basically stunned me. Then its like 2 hits and im dead. It isnt very fun.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:30 AM   #5
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I think this could be a really big change. Those of you who are concerned that your classes are going to become gimped should probably log onto the test server and find out before this goes live. This update doesn't say how much a lot of these damage reductions are, and that is very important. A 5% decrease in one or two skills shouldn't break any class, but a 30% decrease might, depending on the skill.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:32 AM   #6
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ouch, both my chars are getting a beat down.

Wardens will be even more unstopable now with the damage reductions across the board. 

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Old 06-08-2007, 02:39 AM   #7
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[email protected] wrote:

ouch, both my chars are getting a beat down.

Wardens will be even more unstopable now with the damage reductions across the board. 

vejai/etnix

That's probably my biggest concern. DPS nerfs translate into healer buffs. Is this intentional? I dunno, most people feel druids are already overpowered.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:47 AM   #8
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So now I can use Cheetah to run fast out of combat only?!? amazing...
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:55 AM   #9
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Where were these changes months ago?  Its about time.  I'm sure Wardens and other Priests will be hard to kill as I'm sure they should intended to be 1v1, different story group v group though.  Looking forwarded to even more nerfs for everyone imo, we need it. 
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:00 AM   #10
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Ok.  I have a 70 Wiz and a 70 Fury and a whole bunch of toons in their 40s and 50s.  It seems all of my chars will be hit hard.  But you know what? I'm happy that they're at least addressing this issue.  There's no guarantee that what they're planning is going to solve anything because, as they say, the devil is in the details and the post was short on details.  But seriously, PvP is badly unbalanced in favor of the scouts in EQ2 and it's about time they did something about it.

The PvP system we've had so far was a legacy of the PvE setup, which was pretty much left untouched, thus producing the huge imbalances we have been clamoring about for so long.  It's high time that this be looked into and some fine tuning be done to correct this problem because it has festered for too long.

 It's probably scary because we've invested so much time gearing up our toons to play the game as we found it.  It looks like we're getting a whole new ballgame and I'm sure many will cry crivers opposing this change.  But I for one am glad they they've got the cojones to tackle this and not flinch when the outcry comes.  

Let's play ball!

Edit: It occurs to me that another reason this will be good, as alluded to in the OP, is that EQ2 fights are simply too short.  I find when a fight lasts longer you seem to enjoy the victory that much more.  Reducing the damage will inevitably lengthen fights and that's something I'm looking forward to.

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Old 06-08-2007, 03:01 AM   #11
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Great stuff... cept for one thing. DO NOT REDUCE THE REUSE ON THE [Removed for Content] BELT! I don't care if it's parry now, that is a huge buff. Please do not do that. Even for a raiding perspective (I assume the reuse is pve and pvp since you can't change that) why do you want monks now? All scouts can tsunami every 3rd fight.

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Old 06-08-2007, 03:05 AM   #12
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Aeralik wrote:
Level locking has also been a hot topic on the forums over the past few months.  It's also a very tricky subject to handle.  Gaining equipment and better quality spells is something we encourage players to do and this is something everyone should still strive to do.  Achievements on the other hand can be easily obtained and quickly add to the power of your character.  The extreme cases of this, where people end up with an inordinately large number of achievements for their level, yields them to have an unbeatably strong advantage in PvP combat.  In order to mitigate the effects this, characters will be limited to spending 1.5 times their current level within the achievement trees.  You can still gain points above this limit and spend them later on as you level.  Once these changes go live, all characters who are over the new Achievement Per Level cap will be given the opportunity to respec their points on their first login.
So all those level 14 twinks will be able to keep all their twink equipment and have a maximum for 21aa. Most twinks at 14 only have about 15 or 16aa anyway. In T3 PvP it is rare to find people with more than 30aa at lvl 20 or 45aa at lvl30. What this does affect is T4 PvP where I have seen a lot of charactors with 60+ aa in the mid 30s. My lvl36 warden with 61aa will be capped at 54aa and mr battlemage here with 65aa at lvl38 will be capped at 57aa. This does nothing to stop low level noob bashing and punishes the wrong people in T4 and T5 who worked hard to better themselves in a highly competitive tier which I have yet to here one complaint about. Please consider the root cause to noob ganking in EQ2 PvP. It is done because it is highly rewarding in the form of uber factional gear. I know because I have done it myself with 3 active twinks that all started off by ganking noobs by the score full. I agree that it is wrong because it is destroying the population of these servers. Is what needs to be done is alternative ways need to be provided other than ganking noobs for faction. I suggest a few PvP based writs and quests that give faction in T2 towards the first peice of gear at lvl20. These quests/writs can be something simple like spy on the enemy without getting killed for 500 faction or go slay a slayer for 1500 faction. Tier 2 PvP should be the easiest for a new player to get into but in reality it is the hardest and it is slowly ruining the game.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:11 AM   #13
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Aeralik wrote:
  • The effect on the Belt of Gateways has been changed from 100% riposte to 100% parry.  Additionally, its reuse has been reduced from one hour to 10 minutes.
This one makes no sense whatsoever.  Some of the nerfs are bad enough, but lowering the reuse on the PVP belt from 1 hour to 10 minutes?  Most people in PVP think the belt should be removed altogether, and you're making it possible to use the belt 6 times more often?!  How ridiculous is that?  Who cares if it's parry instead of riposte, it's still an "I win" button, and by making it useable 6 times more often than it is now is a complete atrocity.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:13 AM   #14
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I agree with Kruhl.  From what is being described it's a 10 minute tsunami for scouts.  why?  Now it'll be even more powerful than before?
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:16 AM   #15
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<--- Inc Swashbuckler, if those nerf go threw will make brigands worthless in a group on group or any situation.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:25 AM   #16
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<------ Inc MONK.  Very bad changes.  When I fight Berserkers and Monks now, they beat me more often than I beat them.  They are really powerful against Brigands.  After this patch, since Monks are getting an upgrade, and Berserkers aren't being touched at all, it won't even be a competition anymore.  Might as well just run away as soon as I see either of these classes now.  GG SOE.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:31 AM   #17
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Let's see.  When EoF came out, Brigands were nerfed 9 different ways, literally.  Swashbucklers were nerfed once.  Literally.  And this patch we STILL get more nerfs than Swashbucklers?  How [I cannot control my vocabulary] is that?  Swashbucklers have always been able to own Brigands- they should be getting more nerfs than we are.  Totally tally between EoF nerfs and this nerf? : Swashbuckler- 3 nerfs Brigand- 12 nerfs Not to mention double up now becomes "single up" if you don't spec down AGI.  Might as well just get rid of the skill altogether.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:38 AM   #18
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Swashbucklers have a PvE change that should have some impact on PvP as well( yes pve is affecting pvp! ).  Some of their skills were proccing on the second double attack which is now fixed.  It's not pvp specific so it wasn't included here but that is something you will see in the full gu 36 test notes. In regards to druids they do have some of the larger damage reductions from a class point of view.  Just because they are lacking bullet points doesnt mean they have not been changed.  Their numbers are subject to change as well based off Test PvP feedback so make sure you get your characters copied over and then post your comments or use /feedback.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:44 AM   #19
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One thing I'll begin to suggest, especially for healers, is adding a recast time to healer cures in PvP combat, the single targets ones mostly.

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Old 06-08-2007, 03:47 AM   #20
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All i have to say is that outright spell resists better be GREATLY reduced, because our damage is horrible as is in pvp, if you reduce it and it still gets resisted i think i will be throwing in the towel.  Mages have been dominated in T7 pvp since launch, with the exception of a couple weeks right after EoF, and from the looks of it this will only make it worse. One thing, when it comes to pvp does SOE really care about exiles?  Will a dev at least comment on whether we are going to get some pvp love(gear, etc.) or not?I mean, if its never going to happen at least say so, then we can quit griping about it, but we are just chuggin along hoping that someone will wake up and realize we make up a decent chunk of the T7 pvp population and when it comes to PvP we are completely ignored. That belt of gateways change just gave every Q and FP scout an "I Win" button vs exile melee classes every 10 minutes, instead of the 60minutes it was before.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:49 AM   #21
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   Wondering what's bringing these chagnes to the brigand, our dps in a group on group situation is usualyl around 400-500 less than any good swashbuckler due to ae's an cooldowns even with nerfs, brigands have debuffs that even in a group situation are not much of a help if even at all. We have alittle burst dps with the double up, so now our debuffs are even worse an our burst dps is nothing, Why even have a brig along in a group situation imo.     I pvp loads an the changes are from what im reading unless alot of changes that arent seen by the naked eye, our class will be very hurt. An thats coming from what i play daily, an anyone who doesnt play a brigand or know exactly how to play a good brigand in any situation has no room to talk, this is just coming from what ive seen.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:56 AM   #22
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Ranger
  • The Hunter's Instinct line will now buff out of combat speed rather than in combat speed.
  • Nerfing the AA line, thereby resulting in wasted points.
  • Reduced the duration and range of Hook Arrow
  • Never used or had, no comment
  • Reduced the root duration of the Lung line
  • It lasts how long now?  And you want to shorten it more?
  • Reduced the snare duration on the Leg Shot line.
  • Thanks for letting me waste my hard earned coin for nothing upgrading this to try and keep FURIES from either running away or running me down.
  • Reduced the damage done by the Sniper Shot line.
  • Have any of you been reading posts by rangers at all?  Or have you just been paying attention to all the cryers and whiners and moaners!  Its on a fifteen minute timer!  Even if a ranger chooses the str AA line, it only reduces it to 10 minutes!

Are we going to get higher mitigation in eschange for this?  How about giving us more damage to our melee CA's!  Or let us use our ranged CA's while moving!  Can we get a heal or two or let us wear plate armor!

Its always take and take!

And don't tell me this has been tested, I've logged onto the test server with this 70 ranger more than once and have only seen 1 freeporter the whole time. 

Sweeping changes, in order to make PVP last longer, is going to make it go away for some classes.  Unless the result you are looking for is more time being dead.

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Old 06-08-2007, 04:00 AM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:
Ranger
  • The Hunter's Instinct line will now buff out of combat speed rather than in combat speed.
  • Nerfing the AA line, thereby resulting in wasted points.
  • Reduced the duration and range of Hook Arrow
  • Never used or had, no comment
  • Reduced the root duration of the Lung line
  • It lasts how long now?  And you want to shorten it more?
  • Reduced the snare duration on the Leg Shot line.
  • Thanks for letting me waste my hard earned coin for nothing upgrading this to try and keep FURIES from either running away or running me down.
  • Reduced the damage done by the Sniper Shot line.
  • Have any of you been reading posts by rangers at all?  Or have you just been paying attention to all the cryers and whiners and moaners!  Its on a fifteen minute timer!  Even if a ranger chooses the str AA line, it only reduces it to 10 minutes!

Are we going to get higher mitigation in eschange for this?  How about giving us more damage to our melee CA's!  Or let us use our ranged CA's while moving!  Can we get a heal or two or let us wear plate armor!

Its always take and take!

And don't tell me this has been tested, I've logged onto the test server with this 70 ranger more than once and have only seen 1 freeporter the whole time. 

Sweeping changes, in order to make PVP last longer, is going to make it go away for some classes.  Unless the result you are looking for is more time being dead.

I certainly understand your frustration, because i feel the same way about being a mage.  With that said, we should probably see and test how bad all damage has been nerfed across the board.  The problem glaring at me now is that druids will be impossible to kill 1 on 1.  The way it is now, i can kill any druid if EVERY spell i cast lands, one untimely resist and i start breaking my spine trying to kiss my [Removed for Content] goodbye.  Reduce our damage and leave their heals the same and its game over for anyone fighting a druid 1 on 1.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:04 AM   #24
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Kruhl wrote:
Aeralik wrote:
  • The effect on the Belt of Gateways has been changed from 100% riposte to 100% parry.  Additionally, its reuse has been reduced from one hour to 10 minutes.
This one makes no sense whatsoever.  Some of the nerfs are bad enough, but lowering the reuse on the PVP belt from 1 hour to 10 minutes?  Most people in PVP think the belt should be removed altogether, and you're making it possible to use the belt 6 times more often?!  How ridiculous is that?  Who cares if it's parry instead of riposte, it's still an "I win" button, and by making it useable 6 times more often than it is now is a complete atrocity.
No kidding. Way to go SOE.. Nerf some classes, and make the one item that is absolutely overpowered even worse. Here's an idea, create a level 70 of some type, throw on a pvp belt with 10 minute timer, put on some "uber" mastercrafted [Removed for Content], and see how many people you can kill now. Way to go.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:05 AM   #25
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Belt of Getaways every 10 mins?  That's insane!!  Why would you give scouts a 10min easy button? 

Hehe, guess I'm just mad that I'm exile and can't get it too. 

But honestly, this is just a huge advantage that is being given to a class that already has some pretty huge ones.  Tier 1 dps and the ability to parry incoming attacks for 10secs.  Whoever thought this up sure must play a scout.  Oh yeah, they almost always do, don't they?

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Old 06-08-2007, 04:07 AM   #26
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stryker268 wrote:

Belt of Getaways every 10 mins?  That's insane!!  Why would you give scouts swashbuckler a 10min easy button? 

Hehe, guess I'm just mad that I'm exile and can't get it too. 

But honestly, this is just a huge advantage that is being given to a class that already has some pretty huge ones.  Tier 1 dps and the ability to parry incoming attacks for 10secs.  Whoever thought this up sure must play a scout swashbuckler.  Oh yeah, they almost always do, don't they?

FIXED

The more I think about these changes, the more I come to the conclusion that this is just an underhanded back door attempt to implement the 40% cap  on damage.

This has a significant chance of making a majority of healers invincible in pvp, because nowhere did I read that pvp heals are going to be reduced.

Also, no mention whatsoever of a fury's pact of cheetah being reduced was mentioned either.  since this is a group buff as well, anyone with a fury will now be able to run circles around anyone without a fury.  Escaping a superior force with a fury also becomes out of the question.

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Old 06-08-2007, 04:18 AM   #27
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I hope the belt of gateways duration of 10 minutes is some sort of typo. This will result in every single melee exile, or furthermore q/fp without enough faction to get the belt, to never, ever kill someone with the belt. Not only does it imbalance the game further towards scouts (who don't need any help), it reduces the skill needed in pvp greatly. The only "strategy" involved in belting is knowing when to click your winner is me button. Another imbalance that this change creates is a dynamic of brig/swash dominance over every other melee class, most notably predators. A belt is a belt regardless, parrying every CA whether it be on a 10 minute timer or a 30 second timer, and when my class-defining skill is absorbed the same way a 30 second recast CA is absorbed, melee pvp becomes a joke. This doesn't even address the base issue. The problem with the belt is not whether it ripostes or parries, or even its timer. The problem is having an item in game available only to city-aligned wherein you have 10 seconds of complete melee immunity. Nerf tinkering mem wipes because they overlap with a coercer spell? How about a pertinent change, say, changing the belt to a deaggro because monks get tsunami. Please stick to a single line of logic sony. Overwhelm 70 Assassin of Vox Reckoning (Exiled)
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:19 AM   #28
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Interesting changes, I personally wouldnt moan about them as long as I didnt test it.. of course it sounds bad that the damage is reduced.. but honestly, the damage always was way too high, fights usually lasted like 3 seconds in t7 pvp... with overall dps decrease this should help alot. The belt change however, is very weird... i still think a scout shouldnt get that item at all... give it to mages imho! The incombat runspeed change is nice.. as far as i see this, this means rangers will still have the ability to get in range with ppl (using their sprint).. not sure why they reducing lunge tho, its soo short already anyway I fully agree tho with the other ppl in one point: U cant seriously reduce dmg of all classes but let the healing stay on the same level.... this will make all healers unkillable, and in most situations (group-group) u will just end up with everyone beeing OOP... this wont only make druids even stronger, it will also make mystics and even templars unkillable
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:26 AM   #29
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I must ask, how much thought was put into these changes? do any of you devs actually try the pvp changes before thinking "yeah this is a great idea!"... The brig changes are ridiculous...so you've taken away our debuffs and our only form of burst dps in double up? we don't have the sustained single target dps or ae dps like a swashy and alot of our stuff is positional. Our debuffs aren't even substantially higher than other classes to even notice it being our prime ability and with how fast cures are with AA lines and what not, i don't see how we can even achieve a damage output which would keep us up with the other meelee classes in dps. Summary: Change to Double Up: The trait of our class that makes us competitive against other scout classes in pvp as well as burning down healers such as wardens... great, i feel so balanced now! Change to Dispatch and Devitalize: OK... so brigands are a debuff utility class? what are you going to nerf these down to? less than the AE debuff a dirge or SK can cast? or the debuff an assassin or swashy can do from frontal quarters where as all of ours are behind and flanking only? Change to Deceitful Blow: Are we going to change this so it is equal to cheapshot? woot!! that will make it so much easier for us to hit people in pvp because you know... only more than half our skills are behind and flanking only! I think these changes will narrow that gap between the players which know their class inside out, and the people that mashes buttons... and it will probably completely destroy solo pvp since others will fly in before u even have the chance to kill em lol, pvp existing only in kos FTL! if these changes go ahead i for see a decline in the population of nagafen, we'll just have to wait and see what happens i guess
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:26 AM   #30
Novusod

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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Overwhelmed wrote:
Nerf tinkering mem wipes because they overlap with a coercer spell? How about a pertinent change, say, changing the belt to a deaggro because monks get tsunami. Please stick to a single line of logic sony. Overwhelm 70 Assassin of Vox Reckoning (Exiled)
To clarify tinkering mem wipes were nerfed because PvE raiders were exploiting the item in certain high end raids not because of anything in PvP.
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