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Old 10-09-2014, 12:15 AM   #31
Iseous

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What's the big deal? If it's less than 1% chance for a mythical crit, then a big hitter getting that crit is even less than that, which means someone is going to get an amazing parse once out of a thousand fights. So if you're better, you'll still beat them 99% of the time anyway. You guys make it sound like crappy players are going to get mythical criticals all the time, while you never get them, so they will outparse you every fight. If it means that much to you that they got lucky, then take away 1/4 of that mythical DPS and compare that to your parse instead. Was there this much freaking out when people had like no doublecast?

I just hope we have a decent amount of control over how much we focus on criticals to give us more ways to build our characters. If we can have a decent spread where we can sacrifice consistent DPS to get some huge spikes occasionally, then at least there will be some variety. So for instance, if crit chance could be reforged or if gear/adorns/runes/etc. options had more variety to the amount of crit chance available, then at least we could have characters that fit the type of DPS we want (more consistent, or a chance to be much higher at times).

And skill isn't something you need in a game like this. Play a sport or FPS if you want skill. You need strategy and knowledge of fights and abilities in order to know what to click and when in this game, which most people aren't very good at. Furthermore, there is still quite a difference between an average player and someone who knows how to optimize their character. And considering a huge portion of your success depends on your group/raid, there's only so much you can do on your own. So if everyone or most in group/raid have decent knowledge of how to play, then that makes the game a lot easier.
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Old 10-09-2014, 12:17 AM   #32
Anunnaki

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How does this affect spells like Conjuror's Elemental Blast. Where the spell hits 10 separate times, but all at once (so its not a DOT). Do each of these have a separate chance of new crit (meaning potentially only 1 of the 10 hits will new crit)? Or is it the spell as a whole? I guess I could just log into Beta and test it out lol.
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Old 10-09-2014, 12:44 AM   #33
Iseous

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What happened before 100% crit and then you crit? I would think all hits get the critical.
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Old 10-09-2014, 01:27 AM   #34
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Fixed your quote Xelgad. I'm fully expecting day one of launch for all mobs to critically hit players with 100% mythical crit chance. Unintended, Intended bug...just because it would be HILARIOUS. Smile
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Old 10-09-2014, 01:31 AM   #35
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I really think some classes should have a better chance at increasing their higher crit chance hits though. Some classes like wizards and warlocks and assassins arent going anywhere from the top of the parse. But closing the gap would be nice for some of the classes stuck at tier 2 or tier 3 dps.
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Old 10-09-2014, 08:07 AM   #36
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You "dps players" do know that currently a dps player's "skill" is only about 10% of their parse, right? It's really not that hard to press your 6-7 buttons that matter the most on recast and faceroll your keyboard the rest of the time. I'm all for the new crit system. Getting a lucky mythicrit on a sniper shot is only equivalent to getting lucky enough to get a sniper shot reset. Yay, I'll parse 100k higher. Who gives a ****. It won't change my position on the parse. You remember when this game actually had a playerbase and people only had a 10-15% chance to crit? I don't remember constant ******** about lucky crits then.
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Old 10-09-2014, 08:23 AM   #37
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if its not that hard to dps then why do i see so many ****e dps class not dpsing ? i mean healers out parsing scouts and yet every one says 90% scouts dps is auto attacks ? if thats true then all scouts should be doing around same dps seeing as every scout seems to have the same gear now days but thats not true.

full raid geared scout can and will get out parsed by full heroic geared sout for the simple fact that he knows how to play his class and dps its that simple... RNG myth crit hits like come on what is the point to this really ?
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Old 10-09-2014, 08:32 AM   #38
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all i wanna know is will this massive myth crit be recorded in RO

but ok after reading it again VERY RARE chance like so thats like soe fixing swashy dps on single targets in AoM no chance at all..i can live with that.
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Old 10-09-2014, 08:55 AM   #39
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I dunno tbh. It baffles me. The ONLY way you can be bad at dpsing is if you literally AREN'T PRESSING BUTTONS, which about 90% of the players I've ever seen play just don't. Or you can just gear for wdb and afk. Ignoring the whole WDB stat fiasco though, a scout in heroic gear could outdps a raid geared scout if they had a better group setup.
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:01 AM   #40
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Usually issue with low dps toon are : gear choice, aas .... and afk ..

Assuming some 4 year old play a dps class and a top raider but both play exactly the same toon, then we won't see very big differences. Gear and Aas choice have much more impact than skill.

Anyway how skill could be important when 70% of the dps is passive (auto-attack and proc)?
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Old 10-09-2014, 05:18 PM   #41
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Auto Attack provides a skill floor. That is one of the purposes of auto attack. Unfortunately, it still requires that you understand math and how to gear for auto attack.
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Old 10-09-2014, 07:36 PM   #42
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If you hate the new crit system, you must REALLY hate things like FLURRY, MULTI-ATTACK, and DOUBLE CAST.
I mean how could you love any system that isn't 100% all the time!!Roll Eyes

I just look at this system as a chance to do MORE damage. Yes it's random, so is my Double Cast.
I don't foresee any major changes in DPS parce positions unless someone has ALOT higher Crit Chance than I do.

Oh one last thing for you haters to hate on, the fact that your base damage number goes from xxxx to yyyy and isn't the same number all the time. Gotta hate that RNG. Wink
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:26 PM   #43
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Multi attack, Doublecast and flurry are nothing compared to the new critical system.

The concern isn't that RNG changes the number to a different number. The concern is that victory could be had in sheer terms of luck. If you multi attacked and flurried and doublecast on every single attack in a fight, your DPS would still only go up by 50% or so. Especially since you can already push the chance of those things to happen fairly high, not including things like time warp and combat mastery.

However, if you were to get lucky enough, your parse could double or triple as a result of the new crits. On top of the other RNG components, which you have already been kind enough to outline. And it doesn't have to be a case of critting during the entire fight. If a set of adds spawns, and you have 10 seconds to kill them, it isn't difficult to see how a few ridiculous, lucky crits could be the difference between victory and defeat. E

For me, it is a matter of hypocrisy. Things like being able to reset spells is "Too RNG-related", but these new crits are literally nothing BUT RNG.

a 30 or 40% chance to inflict 1.5x damage is a sensible implementation of critical hit mechanics.
A 1% chance to do 5-10x damage is not. We screwed the pooch on critical hit mudflation, unfortunately.
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:38 PM   #44
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There are very few hits that will make a mythical critical make or break a parse. People are being silly in assuming that your top parser is the one who has the best luck.

Luck WILL take a part in the system but it won't absolutely make a parse. It will make low parsers look good, good parsers look great, and great parsers look godly... From time to time.

Lets run on the assumption of some random numbers:
1% mythical crit
5% fabled crit
15% legendary crit
Please correct me if I am way off on these numbers for what they would be (ratio wise)
Mythical is a 300% boost so 1 hit is the equivalent of 4
Fabled is a 100% boost so 1 hit is the equivalent of 2
Legendary is a 25% boost so 1 hit is the equivalent of 1.25

Lets say you have 1000 auto attacks in a fight. Someone under old system would get the equivalent of 1000 auto attacks.
Under new system:
We would see 10 mythical crits for 30 extra attacks
We would see 50 fabled crits for 50 extra attacks
We would see 150 legendary crits for 37.5 extra attacks

1000 + 30 + 50 + 37.5 = 1117.5 total attacks for a total dps increase of 11.75%

Tell me if I am wrong here... but this is NOT game changing.

With the exception of people who have certain spells where 1(ONE INSTANCE) of the spell does a massive % of outgoing damage and that spell (HAPPENS) to get a BIG critical then maybe we'll see the WTFPWN parses. But that will be rare.

I did this post quickly so if I am off in any way let me know.
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:44 PM   #45
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Mythical is a 200% increase, not 300. It's really not gamebreaking, and we don't even know how the % chances scale with crit yet. 95% of the time, player A getting a mythicrit and player B not getting one won't change their positions on the parse. I'm not even sure why people care. Maybe I'm jaded because I'm playing a class that debuffs hp and auto attacks, but I stopped paying attention to who was on top of the parse awhile ago. Mostly because it's always mages (or guardians).
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Old 10-10-2014, 12:48 AM   #46
Iseous

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Your parse will not be even close to double or triple. As Buffrat pointed out, it's 200% more damage (3X), so your 5-10X damage is way off. Pretty much the only classes that this could show some huge spikes are sorcerers with increments and Fiery Blast. So sure, on a 10 second fight, if my Warlock started off with full increments and all temps up, or if a Wizard was able to Mythical their increments during a Fiery Blast rotation, then the parse might double... on a very short fight. Other than that, most classes don't really have nearly as big hits for one ability. But even still, on a real fight that lasts a decent amount of time, my Toxic Assault makes up only around 10% of the parse, which would consist of multiple of these hits. So even with a lucky Mythical on one of those hits where all temps were up, I'd still only get maybe 10% more to my DPS, and that's with all the stars aligned.

And again, this is ONE ability that gets cast like once a minute, which means you have a 1% chance to get the Mythical and then it has to be that exact 1 spell out of a minute, and then added to that you'd want all temps up for it to be most effective anyway. This is hardly game breaking, as it would probably happen like once out of a thousand fights, if that. And if it happened more often, then it would even out in the end for everyone anyway.
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Old 10-10-2014, 12:57 AM   #47
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I never said mythical crits were 5x-10x damage. It was an example. Your parse would be close to double or triple, if you somehow got a mythical crit on every cast.

Which, again, won't happen on a 5 minute fight. But it might happen on one add set, and the crit alone could easily be the difference between success and failure. Which, no matter how you gear, comes down to luck.

Even if you only myth crit 9 out of 10 casts. Or even 8 out of 10. It's still RNG. And to say "That's not going to happen often enough to matter" is exactly what I have been saying about a 0.5% global reset chance per 10% overcap reuse.
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Old 10-10-2014, 01:15 AM   #48
Iseous

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Yes, you said a 1% chance to do 5-10X damage. If you have a 1% chance to do this, how do you expect to get a mythical crit on every cast? That's ridiculous. And sure it could be the difference between success and failure, but like I said, this luck would only be that significant on huge hitting abilities which would make this happen like once out of a thousand fights. If you have to do a fight a thousand times to get a lucky kill, I'm not that concerned about it.
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Old 10-10-2014, 01:44 AM   #49
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Okay, the example I gave was " a way not to do critical hits". Not 'The exact way these new critical hits are being done". As should be obvious by the previous linked comment regarding a "30-40% chance to crit for 1.5x damage", which is ALSO not how it is done in this game.

Both were comments on theory, not on current implementation.

And you should consider reading my posts before you pretend to refute my point.

My point was that shooting down a small percent chance to refresh an ability because it has a TINY chance to be overpowered OCCASIONALLY is no different than crits functioning in exactly that way.

Especially on isolated sets of adds spawning, which are ~15 second windows where you balance them around PRECISE dps numbers, which is impossible with huge critical fluctuations based on luck.
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Old 10-10-2014, 03:00 AM   #50
Iseous

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I did read your post, and you did not say anything about theory. You were complaining about the new Mythical crits and said a 30-40% chance to 1.5X is reasonable, and then used the exact 1% that they gave to say what shouldn't be done... So, what then? You were complaining about a system that wasn't even in place? Is 3X reasonable then since 5-10 was what they shouldn't do, and 3 is < 5.
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Old 10-10-2014, 03:16 AM   #51
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I commented on "Sensible implementation" not "Current implementation". I was complaining about the philosophy behind a gimmicky new mechanic with valid concerns for balance.

I'm not going to make this any more of a ridiculous back-and-forth than it is.

Yes, 3 is less than 5.

You win.
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Old 10-10-2014, 03:57 AM   #52
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I got to test it a little before the servers came down. I got a fair number of legendary and fabled crits. Nothing to really write home about. Didn't see a single Mythical with 739% Critical chance yet. It'll add a little damage to your parse, but it's not the sort of thing that'll make you magically jump to the top because you got one myth crit. If one myth crit is all it took to knock you down in the parse, then you were already neck and neck with the other person. The difference it'll make on your position in the parse is minimal.
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Old 10-10-2014, 04:57 AM   #53
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Well another thing you are forgetting is that the ability to get legendary and fabled crits will reduce the spread even further. What you were comparing is getting only normal crits to Mythical crits, but if you factor in the relatively common 25% Legendary crits and uncommon 100% Fabled crits, the rare 200% Mythical crits won't give as much of an edge as you may have thought.
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Old 10-10-2014, 05:30 PM   #54
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Of course. I totally forgot them. The existence of even more RNG that I didn't mention in the new critical is exactly the same as the current critical system which doesn't have RNG.

The hardest thing to balance has always been time-sensitive add sets. And it will be harder than ever, and hugely luck based. Absolutely. It has nothing to do with winning the parse because of crits. It has to do with the fact that raids aren't large enough and time sensitive parts of fights aren't long enough to iron out the luck factor.

Tell anyone who has ever wiped at 4% or 1% that a run of good luck isn't going to be the difference between success and failure,
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Old 10-12-2014, 02:24 AM   #55
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Has anyone been able to successfully produce a legendary or mythical critical ward? There seems to be no chat feedback for these, so nothing in my logs. I spent about 10 minutes chain-casting my ST ward on myself and i never got a number anywhere close to double the normal amount. (10 minutes is not that long, but i haven't had much beta time so far).
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Old 10-12-2014, 02:46 AM   #56
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I haven't actually reviewed any numbers or anything but from the way its written and from just glancing at numbers that were popping up when I was pew pewing stuff I think the extra 25/100/300 acts just like more CB not actually doubling or trippling the ward values you normally see. I don't see these really being that much differnet than a maxed out uplifting proc.
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Old 10-12-2014, 02:59 AM   #57
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The values for attacks are doubling (etc.). At least from a few i've looked at in my combat log that had direct comparisons available. So no reason why the same wouldn't apply to heals and wards. So if it's not, gonna get that fixed.
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Old 10-12-2014, 09:05 PM   #58
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Er...why did half of those not spell double?
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Old 10-12-2014, 09:11 PM   #59
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/shrugs, no idea., could have killed the npc
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Old 10-13-2014, 08:05 AM   #60
Maergoth

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Pretty sure there is no consideration for the floor on these new crits. Unlike old crits, which were max damage +1 at a minimum. It's why there is such wild fluctuation on these, and some are actually lower than regular crits.

That is my theory anyway. I haven't actually looked at it in depth. Or at all. I usually get frustrated and log out.
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