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Old 06-13-2007, 02:43 PM   #661
Strelok7

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OK let's talk about healers then, this is just not right we getting our damage reduction but healers have their heals the same ----------------- how in world we as a scouts suppost to kill them ONE on ONE fight ---------- even if now it is hard to do it, cause if we don't have enough dps to kill a healer in first few moves we are DEAD -------- cause out main his are done and that would applies to each and every scout class. ------- If u taking away our damage take away healing to balance it out if u like to have a longer fights like u stating -------------- If u gonna be nerfing us so bad ------ watch most of the scouts will reroll - Then we all will have a good time to have a fights for 30 min long----- way to go.

i love pvp it's my life --- DON"T take it away from me

Headshot lvl 70 swashy Vox server

Suny lvl 70 Brig Nagafen server

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Old 06-13-2007, 02:55 PM   #662
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shaunfletcher wrote:
Armmiller wrote:
I simply dont understand this position.  Honestly -- clothwears are wearing "cloth" so it makes sense that if someone comes up behind them and stabs them with a sword they would be dead.  So what do you expect in a pvp world?  So if you are a clothie you should protect yourself -- go around in a grp --- or expect to be killed. 

Two words. Magical Protections. Yes someone in a robe with no magical protection should be easy meat. and would be. But with extensive magical protection they will not be so easily slaughtered, just as your assassin/ranger relies on magical combat arts to be able to do more than simply stab and run. and die if they dont run quick enough.

This is a high magic world, sorcerors and wizards have options to protect themselves using their magical arts and items. Fighters and scouts have options to enhance their attacks with magical arts and tools.

Saying that classes other than your own should group or die is not helpful to anyone. Hell its equally true that scouts should be primarily useful in groups as a utility class (scouting for example lol), but being unable to defeat powerful enemies by themselves. In fact EVERYONE should need groups to address their weaknesses, and in classical fantasy they do. But we have, and want, a solo game also. To have that we have to give everyone the options to play that way, or noone.

so what you are saying is -- that everyone is a tank either through armor or by magical means?  That's hardly the way the game was meant to be -- soe designed this game with differences in the classes and one of those differences (in fact a big one) is that cloth wearers cant take the same amount of damage as the other classes.  If you want to be a tank be a tank.  But more to the point, if my big guns are taken away so that clothies can consider themselves tanklike, how am i suppose to be able to battle the real tanks?  is their armor being nerferd?  maybe my zine should be allowed to wear plate?  or maybe i should have some magical countermeasure so that i'm tank like too? instead as i see it, soe is just stripping my toon of its only sigular abilites, leaving me with little means to challenge the uber'ed out characters running around out there.  Ultimately the problem is that soe is looking for balance that is not possible in a game where characters are defined in classes with distinct roles and people can uber up their toons with gear and the like.  by making these nerfs all they do is make new class imbalances  -- which imo is fundementally unfair to everybody who has been working on their toons for god nows how long with a specific ruleset in mind only to have that ruleset ripped out from under us. 
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Old 06-13-2007, 03:04 PM   #663
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Killque wrote:

I am for all these changes, not because it doesnt effect me, but because this will definatly help out in a lot of scenarios. Some of the classes that are getting "Balanced" (not nerfed imo), severely needed it as they were just completely unstoppable... That said....

Here is a heads up.

44 Dread Dirge (fabled, all master spells 61aa 48 Dread Brigand (Fabled, all master spells 64aa 44 Dread Bruiser (fabled, all master spells 84aa

vs

54 Champ Warden (unknown aa unknown gear, but lets assume the worst, 100aa and Fabled all Master 1 spells.

We fought him at the North Q Gate for about the better part of 10-15 minutes straight.

All three of us ran out of power, and he was just under half.

Warden Killed the brigand, killed the bruiser and got the Dirge (me) down to the red...

I even rezed the brigand (had to use a power potion to do so) and he was killed again.

Thank GOD I had ACT running... We did almost 120,000 dmg to this Warden and he never went down. Infact, I dont think I even saw him hit the red.

Balancing should go beoynd the dps classes imo, especially if you are going to lower their dps. This will just make situations like above even more common.

I think Warden will be the top class should these changes go through.

I think I fought that warden before myself about a month ago. It was me as 51 bruiser, a level 50 defiler, and 47 brigand which is a fairly balanced trio IMO of tank, healer, and dps. We should be able to beat a solo champ warden even though none of us have titles, right? ....WRONG
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Old 06-13-2007, 04:05 PM   #664
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Strelok7 wrote:

OK let's talk about healers then, this is just not right we getting our damage reduction but healers have their heals the same ----------------- how in world we as a scouts suppost to kill them ONE on ONE fight ---------- even if now it is hard to do it, cause if we don't have enough dps to kill a healer in first few moves we are DEAD -------- cause out main his are done and that would applies to each and every scout class. ------- If u taking away our damage take away healing to balance it out if u like to have a longer fights like u stating -------------- If u gonna be nerfing us so bad ------ watch most of the scouts will reroll - Then we all will have a good time to have a fights for 30 min long----- way to go.

i love pvp it's my life --- DON"T take it away from me

Headshot lvl 70 swashy Vox server

Suny lvl 70 Brig Nagafen server

I'l say what scouts keep saying to other classes regarding tracking and such -- you need to group.  In groups you will be invaluable.  Truth is, just because you're not KILLING the healers doesn't mean they're killing you, and you can track them and evac away very easily -- and it's not like, aside from furies, you're talking massive dps coming from them.  And really, scouts are not going to reroll because every class already pretty much needs to group with at least a tracker -- why reroll a class that now needs to group to be another class that already needs to group. Every scout who says "learn your role," and "group with a scout," has a point -- trackers are very much needed and there will always be room in groups for scouts.  Ranged attacks are so valuable against runners and burst damage against clothies, stuns and stifles can turn the tides in every battle.  But have no doubt, healers are defense like clothies are offense and will be hard to kill.  You will be grateful when you start grouping that your healer actually has defensive skills.
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Old 06-13-2007, 04:09 PM   #665
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Killque wrote:

I am for all these changes, not because it doesnt effect me, but because this will definatly help out in a lot of scenarios. Some of the classes that are getting "Balanced" (not nerfed imo), severely needed it as they were just completely unstoppable... That said....

Here is a heads up.

44 Dread Dirge (fabled, all master spells 61aa 48 Dread Brigand (Fabled, all master spells 64aa 44 Dread Bruiser (fabled, all master spells 84aa

vs

54 Champ Warden (unknown aa unknown gear, but lets assume the worst, 100aa and Fabled all Master 1 spells.

We fought him at the North Q Gate for about the better part of 10-15 minutes straight.

All three of us ran out of power, and he was just under half.

Warden Killed the brigand, killed the bruiser and got the Dirge (me) down to the red...

I even rezed the brigand (had to use a power potion to do so) and he was killed again.

Thank GOD I had ACT running... We did almost 120,000 dmg to this Warden and he never went down. Infact, I dont think I even saw him hit the red.

Balancing should go beoynd the dps classes imo, especially if you are going to lower their dps. This will just make situations like above even more common.

I think Warden will be the top class should these changes go through.

I actually would like to see the log of that.  Despite the fact that the warden was 10 levels higher than two of your groups and 6 levels higher than your main dps which would already give him a huge advantage, that much single target healing at someone that level is a bit hard to believe.  I know my warden has healed 30k hp before doing the 6k damage to kill a clothy before, but that's at level 70.  And that used quite a bit of my power. Edit to add: I will agree that Wardens may need some toning down. But if you look at THEIR pve class descriptions, they should be able to do good dps through nukes and they really are not this fantastic dps that people seem to think they are.  I can't beat brigands, but I can kill clothies fairly easily, but most scouts are able to run away after their first attacks don't drop me.  My last pvp fight was warden vs. 65 (?) necro and 70 warlock, and I was able to beat them easily.  It's just that single target healing is not where wardens get their massive heal numbers, it's group healing.
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Old 06-13-2007, 04:10 PM   #666
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Armmiller wrote:
so what you are saying is -- that everyone is a tank either through armor or by magical means?  That's hardly the way the game was meant to be -- soe designed this game with differences in the classes and one of those differences (in fact a big one) is that cloth wearers cant take the same amount of damage as the other classes.  If you want to be a tank be a tank.  But more to the point, if my big guns are taken away so that clothies can consider themselves tanklike, how am i suppose to be able to battle the real tanks?  is their armor being nerferd?  maybe my zine should be allowed to wear plate?  or maybe i should have some magical countermeasure so that i'm tank like too? instead as i see it, soe is just stripping my toon of its only sigular abilites, leaving me with little means to challenge the uber'ed out characters running around out there.  Ultimately the problem is that soe is looking for balance that is not possible in a game where characters are defined in classes with distinct roles and people can uber up their toons with gear and the like.  by making these nerfs all they do is make new class imbalances  -- which imo is fundementally unfair to everybody who has been working on their toons for god nows how long with a specific ruleset in mind only to have that ruleset ripped out from under us. 

Nope not saying any of that. Im saying everyone gets a fair shake at solo.. not just scouts. Different styles of play needed, but noone HAS to group to have a chance, or the game balance is borked. Seeking to develop a balance that lets clothies be clothies, scouts scout, tanks tank and healers heal, while all having a chance alone and a useful group role is not easy, but its 100% of the point.

And real tanks got their armour nerfed long ago, a good chained scout has had pretty much the mit of a plate tank for a while now. This is hardly a new topic of discussion. A brigand/swash has been virtually a fast dps tank with stealth and track for ages, hence the inevitable nerf. Did you REALLY not know this was coming?

The ruleset ALWAYS changes.. characters become less good or need retuning. This is hardly a new idea.

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Old 06-13-2007, 04:18 PM   #667
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Killque wrote:

I am for all these changes, not because it doesnt effect me, but because this will definatly help out in a lot of scenarios. Some of the classes that are getting "Balanced" (not nerfed imo), severely needed it as they were just completely unstoppable... That said....

Here is a heads up.

44 Dread Dirge (fabled, all master spells 61aa 48 Dread Brigand (Fabled, all master spells 64aa 44 Dread Bruiser (fabled, all master spells 84aa

vs

54 Champ Warden (unknown aa unknown gear, but lets assume the worst, 100aa and Fabled all Master 1 spells.

We fought him at the North Q Gate for about the better part of 10-15 minutes straight.

All three of us ran out of power, and he was just under half.

Warden Killed the brigand, killed the bruiser and got the Dirge (me) down to the red...

I even rezed the brigand (had to use a power potion to do so) and he was killed again.

Thank GOD I had ACT running... We did almost 120,000 dmg to this Warden and he never went down. Infact, I dont think I even saw him hit the red.

Balancing should go beoynd the dps classes imo, especially if you are going to lower their dps. This will just make situations like above even more common.

I think Warden will be the top class should these changes go through.

Well, then you just have to avoid them. I do that already... I watch the buffs, and if it's a druid I dont even bother. I just move away. It's not even worth trying, really.
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Old 06-13-2007, 04:30 PM   #668
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People are getting [Removed for Content] off at change and rightfully so.  They rolled toons on this server, been playing them for a year and a half, tweaked their toons, honed their tactics, and now they are getting it pushed in.

 However...

The way the game is supposed to work, in any common sense fashion is like this.

Healers can stay alive a long time through heals, but at the cost of damage

Scouts can stay alive a little, do 2nd best dps, but have track and evac

Tanks can go toe to toe with anyone and usually win.. at the cost of utility

Mages can destroy people, but at the cost of their defense.

 The game doesn't work like this right now.  Rogues and Druids rule them all.  In some scenarios where exceptional players are involved which for the most part doesn't include 95% of this server, things can be skewed, but with tools like the swashy and brig, and the nukes and roots of druids, and things like that you don't actually HAVE To be good at your class to win.  You just win by default, which is where I think the heart of these nerfs are coming from.

The argument can go around and around on how they achieve what each class achieves, but the truth is, the basic archtypes are broken.   Right now, as of this date, scouts and druids rule this server.  They absolutely rule it.  Scouts are broken in that they have THE most utility and the best dps in PvP.  (Save the bards) ... they get track and evac which are the two most overpowered utilities in this game, and give absolutely nothing up.   Rogues can achieve close to and sometimes BETTER mit and avoidance than most plate tanks... Rangers can and do destroy cloth wearers BEFORE they can do jack crap, and assassins can kill most people in a matter of seconds REGARDLESS of what they are wearing.

So what your DPS is getting nerfed Scouts... you're going to still have track and evac...  Furies are getting nerfed too, because any fool would realize that a HEALER shouldn't be able to beat most people by DEFAULT by doing almost if not more DPS than classes designed for DPS of all things.

No class in my opinion should ever be able to roll out solo and own just about everyone they encounter by default.  I don't buy the "rock paper scissors" approach either...  People want balance to this game, which unfortunately won't ever happen 100% but I think what it all boils down to is this. 

It's an MMO... MULTIPLAYER GAME, which heaven forbid means you might actually have to get into a GROUP to win, instead of being a rogue or druid and going out solo and taking out sometimes GROUPS of people because you're just that overpowered.

If you can't see there was something wrong from a BIG PICTURE perspective, then wow.. just wow. 

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Old 06-13-2007, 05:14 PM   #669
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[email protected] wrote:

People are getting [Removed for Content] off at change and rightfully so.  They rolled toons on this server, been playing them for a year and a half, tweaked their toons, honed their tactics, and now they are getting it pushed in.

 However...

The way the game is supposed to work, in any common sense fashion is like this.

Healers can stay alive a long time through heals, but at the cost of damage

Scouts can stay alive a little, do 2nd best dps, but have track and evac

Tanks can go toe to toe with anyone and usually win.. at the cost of utility

Mages can destroy people, but at the cost of their defense.

 The game doesn't work like this right now.  Rogues and Druids rule them all.  In some scenarios where exceptional players are involved which for the most part doesn't include 95% of this server, things can be skewed, but with tools like the swashy and brig, and the nukes and roots of druids, and things like that you don't actually HAVE To be good at your class to win.  You just win by default, which is where I think the heart of these nerfs are coming from.

The argument can go around and around on how they achieve what each class achieves, but the truth is, the basic archtypes are broken.   Right now, as of this date, scouts and druids rule this server.  They absolutely rule it.  Scouts are broken in that they have THE most utility and the best dps in PvP.  (Save the bards) ... they get track and evac which are the two most overpowered utilities in this game, and give absolutely nothing up.   Rogues can achieve close to and sometimes BETTER mit and avoidance than most plate tanks... Rangers can and do destroy cloth wearers BEFORE they can do jack crap, and assassins can kill most people in a matter of seconds REGARDLESS of what they are wearing.

So what your DPS is getting nerfed Scouts... you're going to still have track and evac...  Furies are getting nerfed too, because any fool would realize that a HEALER shouldn't be able to beat most people by DEFAULT by doing almost if not more DPS than classes designed for DPS of all things.

No class in my opinion should ever be able to roll out solo and own just about everyone they encounter by default.  I don't buy the "rock paper scissors" approach either...  People want balance to this game, which unfortunately won't ever happen 100% but I think what it all boils down to is this. 

It's an MMO... MULTIPLAYER GAME, which heaven forbid means you might actually have to get into a GROUP to win, instead of being a rogue or druid and going out solo and taking out sometimes GROUPS of people because you're just that overpowered.

If you can't see there was something wrong from a BIG PICTURE perspective, then wow.. just wow. 

I dont think anyone here in there right mind thinks things are perfect the way they are.  Changes are needed.  The issue is the changes being made are just fixing one class and breaking another.

As far as game balance goes, in a perfect situation, assuming the players are the same level, with the same Master 1's and the same gear, this is how fights should turn out against each of the archtypes.  Going clockwise, you win against the opponents in front of you, you loose against the ones behind you, and it should be an even fight for those straight across.  For example, scouts should win against casters, and loose against Fighters, but have a fair fight against a healer.  Now this isnt to say a well equipped scout cant beat a fighter, but this is where the advanatages in one vs one pvp should lie.

           Scout

          /    |    

Fighter --|-- Caster

              |      /

           Healer

In a setting like this, knowing your opponent is just as important as knowing yourself.

On a side note to balancing.  WIS should not be the primary stat for all resists.  This is how that should look to better reflect saves.

Fire and cold - agility

Posion and Disease - Stamina

Divine - Wisdom

Magic and Mental - Intellegence

Unfortuantly these changes would take alot more work for the Dev's then going in and changing some damage percentages.

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Old 06-13-2007, 05:14 PM   #670
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[email protected] wrote:
Killque wrote:

I am for all these changes, not because it doesnt effect me, but because this will definatly help out in a lot of scenarios. Some of the classes that are getting "Balanced" (not nerfed imo), severely needed it as they were just completely unstoppable... That said....

Here is a heads up.

44 Dread Dirge (fabled, all master spells 61aa 48 Dread Brigand (Fabled, all master spells 64aa 44 Dread Bruiser (fabled, all master spells 84aa

vs

54 Champ Warden (unknown aa unknown gear, but lets assume the worst, 100aa and Fabled all Master 1 spells.

We fought him at the North Q Gate for about the better part of 10-15 minutes straight.

All three of us ran out of power, and he was just under half.

Warden Killed the brigand, killed the bruiser and got the Dirge (me) down to the red...

I even rezed the brigand (had to use a power potion to do so) and he was killed again.

Thank GOD I had ACT running... We did almost 120,000 dmg to this Warden and he never went down. Infact, I dont think I even saw him hit the red.

Balancing should go beoynd the dps classes imo, especially if you are going to lower their dps. This will just make situations like above even more common.

I think Warden will be the top class should these changes go through.

I actually would like to see the log of that.  Despite the fact that the warden was 10 levels higher than two of your groups and 6 levels higher than your main dps which would already give him a huge advantage, that much single target healing at someone that level is a bit hard to believe.  I know my warden has healed 30k hp before doing the 6k damage to kill a clothy before, but that's at level 70.  And that used quite a bit of my power. Edit to add: I will agree that Wardens may need some toning down. But if you look at THEIR pve class descriptions, they should be able to do good dps through nukes and they really are not this fantastic dps that people seem to think they are.  I can't beat brigands, but I can kill clothies fairly easily, but most scouts are able to run away after their first attacks don't drop me.  My last pvp fight was warden vs. 65 (?) necro and 70 warlock, and I was able to beat them easily.  It's just that single target healing is not where wardens get their massive heal numbers, it's group healing.

I will be happy to provide the log information. I am going from memory on the parse, that I had to add together. Because the log got split (fight was so long), it was like 4 parses... Ill see what I can dig up when I get back.

Now that I think about it, not only was there me the brig and bruiser, there were a few lvl 30 champs hanging out at the gate that jumped in to help us kill the warden... he killed them too. I was the only one to escape, and by the time we had enough people there to probably have a chance to kill him, he tried to avoid us by going into the river, then when he realized that wasnt working  (after about another 5 minutes) he ran until he was OOC and then it was all over, I just left.

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Old 06-13-2007, 05:21 PM   #671
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[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

On a side note to balancing.  WIS should not be the primary stat for all resists.  This is how that should look to better reflect saves.

Fire and cold - agility

Posion and Disease - Stamina

Divine - Wisdom

Magic and Mental - Intellegence

Unfortuantly these changes would take alot more work for the Dev's then going in and changing some damage percentages.

This has got to be one of the most brilliant ideas ever. Healers can be tough as they consistantly boost their WIS giving their power pool and their reisists a boost.

With Killque, my highest (or second highest) stat is WIS, and I did this because of resists. I would very much like to balance it out.

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Old 06-13-2007, 06:01 PM   #672
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LOL wisdom=divine only.. hardly any damage is divine. agi=fire and cold.. tada vast amounts of damage is fire and cold. good buff for scouts but what about anyone else?

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Old 06-13-2007, 06:07 PM   #673
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Just subtract wisdom from the resists, or make it so minimal it's nearly nonexisitant and make resists more gear based.

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Old 06-13-2007, 06:23 PM   #674
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shaunfletcher wrote:

LOL wisdom=divine only.. hardly any damage is divine. agi=fire and cold.. tada vast amounts of damage is fire and cold. good buff for scouts but what about anyone else?

Actaully quite alot of Healer damage spells are Divine Damage.  I would agree alot of spells are fire / cold, but not vast amounts.  I completely disagree this is a great ajustment just for scouts.  Fighters with high Sta, Casters with High Int i think would also agree with this formula.  The only class it might hurt would be healers.  Healers are the only archtype that can cure ALL types of ongoing damage, and in the current system they also get the best saves since its based on thier primary stat.  Oh and of coarse they can out heal the damage anyway.

Besides all that, scouts currently need all 5 stats.  No other archtype in the game has to do that.  We need str for range/melee amage, agi for avoidance and Power, Sta for hitpoints, Wis for our saves, and Int for our spell and posion damage.  Very few other classes need all 5 stats.

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Old 06-13-2007, 06:51 PM   #675
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[email protected] wrote:

Actaully quite alot of Healer damage spells are Divine Damage.  I would agree alot of spells are fire / cold, but not vast amounts.  I completely disagree this is a great ajustment just for scouts.  Fighters with high Sta, Casters with High Int i think would also agree with this formula.  The only class it might hurt would be healers.  Healers are the only archtype that can cure ALL types of ongoing damage, and in the current system they also get the best saves since its based on thier primary stat.  Oh and of coarse they can out heal the damage anyway.

Besides all that, scouts currently need all 5 stats.  No other archtype in the game has to do that.  We need str for range/melee amage, agi for avoidance and Power, Sta for hitpoints, Wis for our saves, and Int for our spell and posion damage.  Very few other classes need all 5 stats.

Yes of course a lot of healer spells are divine.. making healers only have any resistance to healer spells is crazy. And yes, healers are good at healing and curing etc, because thats what they are for. Its ALL they have.

If a scout needs all 5 its because, as you describe, he has too many strengths. dps, avoid, staying power, good reisists and poison damage. jack of all trades is fine, as long as you dont want to be master of any of them at the same time. If theres a jack of all trades scout class it ought to be brigand/swash anyway, ranger and assass perhaps should be burst/ranged specialists, and have crap resists, armour option and hitpoints to balance it.

btw Im mostly a clothy/cleric player with an often played but not favourite assassin. Im not on the side of one class or another.

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Old 06-13-2007, 06:51 PM   #676
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[email protected] wrote:

Besides all that, scouts currently need all 5 stats.  No other archtype in the game has to do that.  We need str for range/melee amage, agi for avoidance and Power, Sta for hitpoints, Wis for our saves, and Int for our spell and posion damage.  Very few other classes need all 5 stats.

What are you talking about?  Everyone uses the same stats.  As for POWER, different classes use different stats to account for their POWER pools, but every toon in the game uses the same stats for the same things.  HUH?
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:12 PM   #677
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shaunfletcher wrote:
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Actaully quite alot of Healer damage spells are Divine Damage.  I would agree alot of spells are fire / cold, but not vast amounts.  I completely disagree this is a great ajustment just for scouts.  Fighters with high Sta, Casters with High Int i think would also agree with this formula.  The only class it might hurt would be healers.  Healers are the only archtype that can cure ALL types of ongoing damage, and in the current system they also get the best saves since its based on thier primary stat.  Oh and of coarse they can out heal the damage anyway.

Besides all that, scouts currently need all 5 stats.  No other archtype in the game has to do that.  We need str for range/melee amage, agi for avoidance and Power, Sta for hitpoints, Wis for our saves, and Int for our spell and posion damage.  Very few other classes need all 5 stats.

Yes of course a lot of healer spells are divine.. making healers only have any resistance to healer spells is crazy. And yes, healers are good at healing and curing etc, because thats what they are for. Its ALL they have.

If a scout needs all 5 its because, as you describe, he has too many strengths. dps, avoid, staying power, good reisists and poison damage. jack of all trades is fine, as long as you dont want to be master of any of them at the same time. If theres a jack of all trades scout class it ought to be brigand/swash anyway, ranger and assass perhaps should be burst/ranged specialists, and have crap resists, armour option and hitpoints to balance it.

btw Im mostly a clothy/cleric player with an often played but not favourite assassin. Im not on the side of one class or another.

Ok i might have inadvertantly hijacked this thread, so this will be my last post on this, so we can get back to talking about the pvp balancing issues.

Right now save are unbalanced because healer types NEED a high wis for thier power pool.  all other classes only need wis for resists.  So basicly the only class in the game that have some of the best resist buffs, and the ability to cure anything also get the highest resists at no penalty.  All other classes have to sacrifice somewhere else in order to increase wis. 

As far as scouts needing all 5 stats, i would love to hear what wizard needs strength, or what plate class needs agi, or what fighter type needs Int, and what its for.  Or what healer really needs agi, or even str if they are not melee spec'd.  I am not complaining at all that scouts need all 5 stats, i am just saying the current system is a bit unfair in favor of healers.

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Old 06-13-2007, 07:23 PM   #678
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[email protected] wrote:
shaunfletcher wrote:
 

Ok i might have inadvertantly hijacked this thread, so this will be my last post on this, so we can get back to talking about the pvp balancing issues.

Right now save are unbalanced because healer types NEED a high wis for thier power pool.  all other classes only need wis for resists.  So basicly the only class in the game that have some of the best resist buffs, and the ability to cure anything also get the highest resists at no penalty.  All other classes have to sacrifice somewhere else in order to increase wis. 

As far as scouts needing all 5 stats, i would love to hear what wizard needs strength, or what plate class needs agi, or what fighter type needs Int, and what its for.  Or what healer really needs agi, or even str if they are not melee spec'd.  I am not complaining at all that scouts need all 5 stats, i am just saying the current system is a bit unfair in favor of healers.

There are a few exceptions to the rules.  Mages dont' need str so much, but it affects their melee if they so choose to be stupid and use it.  Plate tanks need AGI just as much as the rest, but most dont buff it as a primary stat. Right now mitigation means a lot less than avoidance, so agi helps a lot. 

Any proc on any item magic / cold / flame based etc, I believe is affected by int regardless of class.   You might not NEED these stats as much but at the point of diminishing returns there is an order to it all.

The argument can be made that a scout needs little wisdom becuase they are a gank and run type class and by design their resists dont mean a lot.  We could go around and around all day on this, but in the end of it all.. depending on the type of scout you are defines what you buff.  My rogues I buff STR/AGI/STA respectively and care little for INT.  Rangers / Assassins usually buff STR/AGI - INT because they have AA lines that help with poisons...  BARDS buff STR/AGI/INT for their spell damage.... STA is a great help to all, but what is another 100HP sometimes when the mob can and does hit you for 1000points a pop.  Get what I'm saying?

by far the most dependent on stats is the Paladin.  Needs STR/STA/WIS/INT to all be pretty high to be affective...   while with others it's nice.

It's neither here nor there, but the deal is this.  WIS is the primary stat for resists for ALL classes.  It's also the primary power stat for a healer.  I have seen healers with 8-10k resists with 700 WIS... try to snare one and see what happens?

Just base resists off of items ... it'll be the easisest way to balance that out.

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Old 06-13-2007, 07:31 PM   #679
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[email protected] wrote:
shaunfletcher wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

Actaully quite alot of Healer damage spells are Divine Damage.  I would agree alot of spells are fire / cold, but not vast amounts.  I completely disagree this is a great ajustment just for scouts.  Fighters with high Sta, Casters with High Int i think would also agree with this formula.  The only class it might hurt would be healers.  Healers are the only archtype that can cure ALL types of ongoing damage, and in the current system they also get the best saves since its based on thier primary stat.  Oh and of coarse they can out heal the damage anyway.

Besides all that, scouts currently need all 5 stats.  No other archtype in the game has to do that.  We need str for range/melee amage, agi for avoidance and Power, Sta for hitpoints, Wis for our saves, and Int for our spell and posion damage.  Very few other classes need all 5 stats.

Yes of course a lot of healer spells are divine.. making healers only have any resistance to healer spells is crazy. And yes, healers are good at healing and curing etc, because thats what they are for. Its ALL they have.

If a scout needs all 5 its because, as you describe, he has too many strengths. dps, avoid, staying power, good reisists and poison damage. jack of all trades is fine, as long as you dont want to be master of any of them at the same time. If theres a jack of all trades scout class it ought to be brigand/swash anyway, ranger and assass perhaps should be burst/ranged specialists, and have crap resists, armour option and hitpoints to balance it.

btw Im mostly a clothy/cleric player with an often played but not favourite assassin. Im not on the side of one class or another.

Ok i might have inadvertantly hijacked this thread, so this will be my last post on this, so we can get back to talking about the pvp balancing issues.

Right now save are unbalanced because healer types NEED a high wis for thier power pool.  all other classes only need wis for resists.  So basicly the only class in the game that have some of the best resist buffs, and the ability to cure anything also get the highest resists at no penalty.  All other classes have to sacrifice somewhere else in order to increase wis. 

As far as scouts needing all 5 stats, i would love to hear what wizard needs strength, or what plate class needs agi, or what fighter type needs Int, and what its for.  Or what healer really needs agi, or even str if they are not melee spec'd.  I am not complaining at all that scouts need all 5 stats, i am just saying the current system is a bit unfair in favor of healers.

pallys use wis and strfor power pool as for plate classes needing agi you are away the more agi a tank has the less he gets it meaning the easier it is for him to live. crusdaers can and do make use of all 5 stats
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:33 PM   #680
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So... I hopped on the PvP test server. Decap loses about 3k damage for me, master I at 500 str.  They also nerfed Killing Blade, yet I don't see this in the notes.  You have to be kidding me.  Killing Blade also loses 500 damage?  So... take away our big hit, take away our minor hit... our root loses its duration by half.  Decap currently does 7566 top end, on test server does 4300.  Killing blade currently does 3300, on test server does 2800.  So... take away our class defining abilities.  Nice job guys. That's a HUGE damage decrease.  That's ridiculous. So, when I go to fight a wizard, now I have to drop both of these just to drop mana shield, then I have to start from scratch on the wizard's HP, that's if I'm not dead already from the time it takes to get invis on him. I'm not crying about my "win" buttons, before you idiots jump in and complain about it.  A 10 minute reuse time, 9 min with full pvp gear (which is also wrong... AA spec and PvP gear should get it down to faster reuse time, but that was nerfed) Please stop nerfing stuff.  Bring others damage output up, but please stop nerfing.  On our server (Vox) its already tough enough to find pvp.  So if I'm so lucky as to find a few people, I want to stand a chance... not have to call in 3 friends to help me.  This is not a strategic increase, this is a "group vs group only pvp" change.  I plead with you, do not nerf all of this.  This is ludicrous.  Buff those that need the help, do not nerf everyone.  Wizard damge... leave it alone.  Ranger snares?  Leave them alone.  Healers snares?  Like they get a high enough damage output right now?  Come on.  Sony does not learn from its historical mistakes. Just like it lost the Betamax vs VHS war due to not wanting to allow the [Removed for Content] industry on BetaMax, they did the same thing with Blu Ray vs HD DVD.  Just like they did with SWG to force people into grouping, never solo'ing, and changing class balances all around, they are repeating themsevles again. Please.  Don't keep swinging the nerf bat.  Instead, use the buff lotion. 
Roll another class then crybaby.  And FYI, Blu Ray beats HD DVD anyday, get your facts straight before you go on a rant throwing out false information about sony.  I'm glad you got nerfed, now you can't 1 shot all the clothies.  NOW you have to use some strategy don't you?  boo hoo
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:19 PM   #681
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w1nz wrote:
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So... I hopped on the PvP test server. Decap loses about 3k damage for me, master I at 500 str.  They also nerfed Killing Blade, yet I don't see this in the notes.  You have to be kidding me.  Killing Blade also loses 500 damage?  So... take away our big hit, take away our minor hit... our root loses its duration by half.  Decap currently does 7566 top end, on test server does 4300.  Killing blade currently does 3300, on test server does 2800.  So... take away our class defining abilities.  Nice job guys. That's a HUGE damage decrease.  That's ridiculous. So, when I go to fight a wizard, now I have to drop both of these just to drop mana shield, then I have to start from scratch on the wizard's HP, that's if I'm not dead already from the time it takes to get invis on him. I'm not crying about my "win" buttons, before you idiots jump in and complain about it.  A 10 minute reuse time, 9 min with full pvp gear (which is also wrong... AA spec and PvP gear should get it down to faster reuse time, but that was nerfed) Please stop nerfing stuff.  Bring others damage output up, but please stop nerfing.  On our server (Vox) its already tough enough to find pvp.  So if I'm so lucky as to find a few people, I want to stand a chance... not have to call in 3 friends to help me.  This is not a strategic increase, this is a "group vs group only pvp" change.  I plead with you, do not nerf all of this.  This is ludicrous.  Buff those that need the help, do not nerf everyone.  Wizard damge... leave it alone.  Ranger snares?  Leave them alone.  Healers snares?  Like they get a high enough damage output right now?  Come on.  Sony does not learn from its historical mistakes. Just like it lost the Betamax vs VHS war due to not wanting to allow the [Removed for Content] industry on BetaMax, they did the same thing with Blu Ray vs HD DVD.  Just like they did with SWG to force people into grouping, never solo'ing, and changing class balances all around, they are repeating themsevles again. Please.  Don't keep swinging the nerf bat.  Instead, use the buff lotion. 
Roll another class then crybaby.  And FYI, Blu Ray beats HD DVD anyday, get your facts straight before you go on a rant throwing out false information about sony.  I'm glad you got nerfed, now you can't 1 shot all the clothies.  NOW you have to use some strategy don't you?  boo hoo
Those assassin abilities are not overpowered in their current state and should not be nerfed, honestly.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:35 PM   #682
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Level 58 Ranger attacking a level 63 Wizard yesterday.

I unloaded every bow CA I had on him including the full duration of Stream of Arrows while he was waving at me. I finally got him into the yellow on health and closed into melee where I unloaded all of my melee CAs on him including stun's snares, et cetera. FINALLY I got him to a sliver of health where he finally decided to two shot me killing me.

I'm seriously debating on drawing up a Wizard or Warlock after that.

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Old 06-13-2007, 09:37 PM   #683
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Nerfing just moves "overpoweredness" to other classes and causes people to [I cannot control my vocabulary]. How about you guys figure out a productive way to fix so called class disparities instead of taking the easy way out every patch? Furethermore, despite pages and pages of negative feedback, I see NO CHANGE in the plans for nerfs since the original post, other than the duration on the belt of gateways. Grats customer care tbh.
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:00 PM   #684
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[email protected] wrote:
Nerfing just moves "overpoweredness" to other classes and causes people to [I cannot control my vocabulary]. How about you guys figure out a productive way to fix so called class disparities instead of taking the easy way out every patch? Furethermore, despite pages and pages of negative feedback, I see NO CHANGE in the plans for nerfs since the original post, other than the duration on the belt of gateways. Grats customer care tbh.
If they aimed for the easy way, this would not have been the way they did it. They are taking on a gigantic workload in rebalancing everything for pvp, when they could just have left it all alone, or nerfed one skill here or there without much effect.
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:10 PM   #685
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They only got rid of "Hook Arrow" because it was the only way to prevent people from escaping on Griffons, Horses, Carpets, Clouds, et cetera and no one wants to fight on a PvP server, they want to run to protect their titles.
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:11 PM   #686
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Demron wrote:
They only got rid of "Hook Arrow" because it was the only way to prevent people from escaping on Griffons, Horses, Carpets, Clouds, et cetera and no one wants to fight on a PvP server, they want to run to protect their titles.
Actually, warlocks have a skill that do a dandy job of that too. SMILEY
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:21 PM   #687
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Nerfing all damage for higher tier dps is the easy way out. It does not solve any real PvP problems whatsoever.
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:29 PM   #688
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[email protected] wrote:
Nerfing all damage for higher tier dps is the easy way out. It does not solve any real PvP problems whatsoever.
Oh well, it DOES solve the problem they are trying to solve. Too quick fights.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:08 PM   #689
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Ok so the thing I notice in these forums is the Scout classes crying about the changes. Well I am glad you have had it easy for way to long. My pvp has always been "stun" "big hit" "big hit dead". There is no fun in that! It's frustrating even upsetting at times! I have spent too many hours on raids getting the best of the best gear to have some weak no skilled crappy gear wearing scout come kill me in two shots. I don't even get a chance to fight back before I am dead or so low on health I cant cast a spell before I am dead. As for the level locking I think those people should all be shot in the head how weak can you be to pick on noobs all day, level up come play with the skilled people. I have been leveling up some new toons and I can not believe how chicken you lockers are you have no skill at all. That should be done away with all together I think they should nerf it twice as much as they are. For that matter just ban level locking all together. I have played many PVP games and this PVP has been so unbalanced that I am glad to see them do something about it. The belt thing is not really strange when you think of your deity abilities use that belt and hope you don't get below 50% before you do or it's lights out. I am just really glad the focus on scouts has come around now they will have to have skill to kill. Healers should always have the upper hand they can heal themselves and if you play a healer more power to you because solo they have to really earn there level's and AA. Thank you SOE I may stick around another few months. I have not logged in for a few days because the PVP is so unbalanced I just get fed up with it and take a break.

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Old 06-13-2007, 11:26 PM   #690
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Madazhell,

 You do realize all level lockers don't lock to pick on "noobs", some could simply be out questing and instead of getting jumped by that green or even con while fighting mobs they kill them. I level locked for a while at 20 on my Inquis to get AA and level by quests ONLY (since I never did it on PVE and no one was on for PVP lol). I am not trying to defend the level lockers that do however, but again nothing against them because it is their choice and if I am having that bad of a time I will just gain a few levels. As everyone knows getting from 1-30 can be done in 2-4 days.

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