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Old 05-19-2008, 11:50 AM   #31
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I just think that there are MUCH more worthwhile things to be "demanding" fixes to. Not the least of which, but being in the graphics category, is the horrible optimization that causes FPS problems on even high end systems. Shadows are pretty trivial. And, quite honestly, the shadows in the game look kinda ugly to me. Way too artificial looking.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:28 PM   #32
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It may not have been a high priority several years ago, but it becomes more important with every new MMORPG release.  Graphics quality of a game is very important to lots of people, so the farther back EQ2 falls from other MMORPGs in graphics quality, the less likely those people will continue to play. 

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Old 05-19-2008, 12:34 PM   #33
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And here I thought gameplay should be the focus of priority. How silly of me. Yes, let's focus the trivial little graphics issue that has zero impact on gameplay and not all that much on visual quality and most people don't even notice...
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:41 PM   #34
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Andok wrote:

It may not have been a high priority several years ago, but it becomes more important with every new MMORPG release.  Graphics quality of a game is very important to lots of people, so the farther back EQ2 falls from other MMORPGs in graphics quality, the less likely those people will continue to play. 

So youre telling me that most people will stop playing a game that they really enjoy just because something comes out that looks better?  And if your logic made sence, they why are so many playing EQ1, and not many playing vanguard?  EQ1 having pretty old graphics, and Vanguard doing a lot of nice graphical stuff.

There are bigger things to fix then shadows.  It is a nice to have, not a need to have.  And, for the person that says they die a lot without shadows, umm.. i dont get it...  I dont play with shadows on, and I never had a problem judging where mobs are without them. SMILEY

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Old 05-19-2008, 12:43 PM   #35
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Just because it’s trivial to you doesn’t mean that it’s trivial to other gamers.  Also, gameplay is meaningless if people leave to play better looking games. 

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Old 05-19-2008, 12:48 PM   #36
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[email protected] wrote:
Andok wrote:

It may not have been a high priority several years ago, but it becomes more important with every new MMORPG release.  Graphics quality of a game is very important to lots of people, so the farther back EQ2 falls from other MMORPGs in graphics quality, the less likely those people will continue to play. 

So youre telling me that most people will stop playing a game that they really enjoy just because something comes out that looks better?

Where did you read "most"? SMILEY
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:53 PM   #37
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lots of people, somehow in my head turnin to "most". 

Gameplay is meaningful to "most" people, and using eq1 as an example, they stuck around even though graphics are pretty old, so apparently good gameplay is important to many.  Heck, many people enjoy text based muds, and those asian mmo's with aweful graphics...  So graphics may be something people value over gameplay, but the numbers of people playing many games seems to show that gameplay is mroe important then graphics.  Heck look at wow.  The graphics there are pretty cartoony, old and showing their age and they have TONS of people playing for the gameplay.

I guess my point is that people play what they play for different reasons.  Because you enjoy graphics over gameplay dosent mean that most people share that view.

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Old 05-19-2008, 01:20 PM   #38
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 I find it funny how people complain about the shadows not working (though i do not seem to have this problem at all, I am however very aware of its existence) Has any of you realized thus far, that even on the highest end hardware available right now, systems choke in certain areas with the shadows on full. Don't try to talk a bunch of smack about how your pc can handle it blah blah, because we all know that when you jump into a raid those shadows make the game run like hell, even on a 3.1ghz quad ultimate running a whopping 16mb cache.Yea thats right... on my quad core extreme the shadow effects ruin my raid experience enough that it remains off most of the time.So before people cry about the shadows kicking out on you, keep in mind that the shadows have always been a main issue for performance running on highest settings. SoE has not put a lot of thought into this problem mainly because they realize the game runs like crap with them on.Yea the game runs great with shadows on until you get into a big enough group, especially with environmental shadows on, oh man it can really start to crawl (below 30fps on next gen hardware)So if my yorkfield chokes with shadows on full, how will your conroes and wolfsdales handle it? not so good, I think everyone here is beating a dead horse.Now a good suggestion would be to remove the shadows completely, and introduce a new optimized shadow system with an upcoming game update, to spare us from the walls of text like I have just created.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:36 PM   #39
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Do I care about shadows? You bet your sweet backside! When I custom build a gaming system which includes a very expensive video card I want to be able to turn everything on. Now "maybe" I might have to turn down a few things for a brand new game on the market but when I load a game that was made 5+ years ago (SWG graphics engine) and have to turn it down you bet I'm upset!EQ2 only uses a single core on your CPU and to make the matter MUCH MUCH worse.... SOE put many of the graphics functions not on the video card where they belong but on the CPU! Yes... combine only using one core with trying to render things on that one core that run 10x faster on your video card and you have a problem.I appreciate that some people do not care about graphics. I also agree that gameplay is #1 but this is beyond the realm of silly when a major graphics feature takes 5+ years (and counting) to fix. If I can turn everything to make on a game like Lotro which has far superior graphics and I cannot even turn on shadows in EQ2 then something is wrong. The Star Wars Galaxy/EQ2 graphics engine has not been updated once in over 5 years. The last time I checked the fee for the newer and better games cost the very same as what we pay for EQ2. How does EQ1, WOW, UO, DAOC and almost every other game get a graphics overhaul every few years but EQ2 does not?Hmmmmm-JB
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:06 PM   #40
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[email protected] wrote:

lots of people, somehow in my head turnin to "most". 

Gameplay is meaningful to "most" people, and using eq1 as an example, they stuck around even though graphics are pretty old, so apparently good gameplay is important to many.  Heck, many people enjoy text based muds, and those asian mmo's with aweful graphics...  So graphics may be something people value over gameplay, but the numbers of people playing many games seems to show that gameplay is mroe important then graphics.  Heck look at wow.  The graphics there are pretty cartoony, old and showing their age and they have TONS of people playing for the gameplay.

I guess my point is that people play what they play for different reasons.  Because you enjoy graphics over gameplay dosent mean that most people share that view.

I don't enjoy graphics over gameplay - I think they are equally important to a game.   SoE keeps improving the gameplay side of EQ2, but the graphics side hasn't seen much love at all.   Personally, I am happy with the gameplay as it is, but I am dissatisfied with the graphics, and that includes the performance when using higher graphic settings.
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:02 PM   #41
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Andok wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

lots of people, somehow in my head turnin to "most". 

Gameplay is meaningful to "most" people, and using eq1 as an example, they stuck around even though graphics are pretty old, so apparently good gameplay is important to many.  Heck, many people enjoy text based muds, and those asian mmo's with aweful graphics...  So graphics may be something people value over gameplay, but the numbers of people playing many games seems to show that gameplay is mroe important then graphics.  Heck look at wow.  The graphics there are pretty cartoony, old and showing their age and they have TONS of people playing for the gameplay.

I guess my point is that people play what they play for different reasons.  Because you enjoy graphics over gameplay dosent mean that most people share that view.

I don't enjoy graphics over gameplay - I think they are equally important to a game.   SoE keeps improving the gameplay side of EQ2, but the graphics side hasn't seen much love at all.   Personally, I am happy with the gameplay as it is, but I am dissatisfied with the graphics, and that includes the performance when using higher graphic settings.

There were some great blogs by the devs about the engine and such.  Here and Here. It was a great read, and well worth it.  The short story is an engine rewrite is not a simple thing to do.  CCP just did it with eve late last year.  Chcek out their dev blogs archive and they give some very candid and technical insight into the process.  It took several years to rewrite their entire client.  They took a lot of the graphics and moved it to the gpu, and a bunch of other stuff.  Honestly, is it worth it to rebuild the entire game engine so we see a graphics update?  I dont have their stats so I can't say.

Maybe I have been playing mmo's so long, but after playing eq1 for 7 years, and now eq2 and eve I have gotten used to the graphics style.  It really dosent bother me one bit.  I actually thoguht the graphics were hugely improved over eq1 (they are, but you get my point). 

I ended up turning some graphics settings down (flora being one of them) not for performance gains, but because it made it easier to do things like find shinys and other ground spawns for quests etc.

In the end, they made a call based on where they saw technology going and it turned out that technology went a different way.  These things take years to build before release, and by then it was too late to change things. 

Enjoy the game.

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Old 05-19-2008, 03:51 PM   #42
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I think it'd be a bigger priority if there were more than 8 people who don't work at NASA and/or PIXAR that could actually run the game with full shadows. Ok, maybe if you play on a 6" monitor you could. Hopefully they'll figure out how to offload the shadow and particle system to multiple cores soon (my lifetime) and fix the problem during that process.
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:59 PM   #43
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The "I don't play with shadows so it doesn't affect me and therefore is not an issue worth fixing," and the similar arguments aren't valid at all.It's a feature of the game's graphics and it should work. It doesn't, and needs to be fixed especially given that it has always been a problem.
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:06 PM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:
Andok wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

lots of people, somehow in my head turnin to "most". 

Gameplay is meaningful to "most" people, and using eq1 as an example, they stuck around even though graphics are pretty old, so apparently good gameplay is important to many.  Heck, many people enjoy text based muds, and those asian mmo's with aweful graphics...  So graphics may be something people value over gameplay, but the numbers of people playing many games seems to show that gameplay is mroe important then graphics.  Heck look at wow.  The graphics there are pretty cartoony, old and showing their age and they have TONS of people playing for the gameplay.

I guess my point is that people play what they play for different reasons.  Because you enjoy graphics over gameplay dosent mean that most people share that view.

I don't enjoy graphics over gameplay - I think they are equally important to a game.   SoE keeps improving the gameplay side of EQ2, but the graphics side hasn't seen much love at all.   Personally, I am happy with the gameplay as it is, but I am dissatisfied with the graphics, and that includes the performance when using higher graphic settings.

There were some great blogs by the devs about the engine and such.  Here and Here. It was a great read, and well worth it.  The short story is an engine rewrite is not a simple thing to do.  CCP just did it with eve late last year.  Chcek out their dev blogs archive and they give some very candid and technical insight into the process.  It took several years to rewrite their entire client.  They took a lot of the graphics and moved it to the gpu, and a bunch of other stuff.  Honestly, is it worth it to rebuild the entire game engine so we see a graphics update?  I dont have their stats so I can't say.

Maybe I have been playing mmo's so long, but after playing eq1 for 7 years, and now eq2 and eve I have gotten used to the graphics style.  It really dosent bother me one bit.  I actually thoguht the graphics were hugely improved over eq1 (they are, but you get my point). 

I ended up turning some graphics settings down (flora being one of them) not for performance gains, but because it made it easier to do things like find shinys and other ground spawns for quests etc.

In the end, they made a call based on where they saw technology going and it turned out that technology went a different way.  These things take years to build before release, and by then it was too late to change things. 

Enjoy the game.

Thanks for the links SMILEYWhile I am sure lots of us would love a new game engine, I'm not holding my breath.  However, I would like to see the disappearing shadows bug fixed.  It's "just" a bug.  Squash it!  (Yeah, yeah, I know.... that's why I put quotes around "just&quotSMILEY
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:07 PM   #45
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Does it need fixing?  Yes it certainly does.

Does it actually effect gameplay?  No, not really. 

I wish they'd give the game a new engine, one capable of fully utilizing multiple cores, fully utilizing your gpu and one capable of supporting complete freedom of movement along the z-axis.

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Old 05-19-2008, 10:44 PM   #46
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I turned my shadows on Friday afternoon to see what all of the fuss was about.  You know what...it really does add a cool extra layer of realism to play.  Looks beautiful.

Was playing today (Monday) and realized that I hadn't had the disappearing shadow issue.  Played about 15 hours over 3 days.  Am I lucky, or did they fix this?

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Old 05-20-2008, 12:15 AM   #47
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The question of the thread was "Does this affect anyone elses gamplay" [sic]Some people answered that it does not in fact affect their gameplay.  And other people jumped all over them.  Just wanted to point that out.It does not affect my gameplay.  Sometimes they are there, sometimes they aren't.  Just doesn't matter much to me.  Sorry.  I realize its a big deal to some folks, but it isn't to me, and that was after all the posted question.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:35 AM   #48
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Andok wrote:

Also, gameplay is meaningless if people leave to play better looking games. 

Maybe if you're one of the lemmings who is only attracted to shinies.You're right, top-notch graphics are vital for a game to succeed. That's why WoW is such a failure....oh, wait.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:42 AM   #49
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DuskTwilight wrote:
The "I don't play with shadows so it doesn't affect me and therefore is not an issue worth fixing," and the similar arguments aren't valid at all.
What about the "I *DO* play with the shadows on but it's no big deal and not an issue worth sinking a lot of dev time into" arguments?
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:24 AM   #50
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Shadows is a program subroutine and why not just rewrite this one routine to place it on the video card where it belongs. Not only will this most likely fix the issue but we'll get a speedup to boot.Seems pretty win-win to me.Now, of course, if they only have 1-2 programmers assigned to the entire EQ2 live team while all the others are working on the expansion... well I can see how this would be hard.SOE.... Hire some programmers!The real problem here is more programmers = less profit. The bean counters want to squeeze every last drop of profit out of the game. This means less employees, less support yadda yadda.I do respect that many so called "power gamers" turn off all the extra graphics. The game is about challenge and anything that lowers the fps is not wanted. They would play with stick figures if SOE would allow that.Myself (and I suspect many others) play these sort of games as a form of immersion and anything that helps us "feel" like we are more a part of the game world is a plus. Is this somehow a bad thing? We're not asking SOE to rewrite the entire game... just fix a feature that is in the game and has been broken since day one.and point of reference... EQ1, since 1999, has received two complete graphics engine rewrites. Yes they were needed but you would think that after 5+ years even EQ2 is in need of some love SMILEY-JB
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:40 AM   #51
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Since I've bought my new PC, I actually haven't had any issues with the shadows. It is very rare for them to all the sudden not work anymore. But either zoning, restarting the game, or even just sometimes they'll magically turn back on when i'm standing there not doing anything. Does it affect gameplay? well, usually extra graphical options like that dont have any effect on gameplay. Now, being immersed in a game, and gameplay being horrible are two totally separate things. I think with the single core extinct, and dual core processor individual core are less powerful than the last line of single cores, most people with a dual core machine don't run shadows. My 3.2 dual core has a hard time unless I overclock to 3.5-3.8.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:47 PM   #52
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turned graphics down to Very High Quality (from extreme) playing in the sinking sands (consistent 50+fps). Shadows still disappeared after about half an hour.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:55 PM   #53
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:
Andok wrote:

Also, gameplay is meaningless if people leave to play better looking games. 

Maybe if you're one of the lemmings who is only attracted to shinies.You're right, top-notch graphics are vital for a game to succeed. That's why WoW is such a failure....oh, wait.
Are you able to make an argument without exaggerating your opponent’s statements? Clearly, graphics even have some importance to you since you play with your settings turned up high enough to see shadows.  Since you claim that graphics are not that important yet you still crank your settings up high enough to show shadows (and even take a performance hit), imaging how gamers that think graphics are important feel. Also, since you mentioned WoW, do a search on this board and see how many EQ2 players don’t play WoW because of that game’s crappy graphics.  How do you think all of those players will react when EQ2 is the game with crappy graphics (relative to the competition)?If you’re just being self-centered and don’t want the bug fixed because it doesn’t affect you, maybe thinking of having less people to group with will help you get on board with getting this bug fixed.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:59 PM   #54
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StormCinder wrote:

I turned my shadows on Friday afternoon to see what all of the fuss was about.  You know what...it really does add a cool extra layer of realism to play.  Looks beautiful.

Was playing today (Monday) and realized that I hadn't had the disappearing shadow issue.  Played about 15 hours over 3 days.  Am I lucky, or did they fix this?

SC

You may be lucky, or you may have a system that EQ2 really likes.  Please post your system specs.
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:55 PM   #55
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Any mob that does not contact the ground has very little distance reference on a 2D screen without shadows on. These arent common mobs thankfully but anything like the floaty elementals, djinn, hawks, orbs, harpies and so on are tough to get any perspective on.

With shadows there is a clear distance reference making them much easier to pull or bypass without a mishap. I would say this is a gameplay issue, though, like all gameplay issues it affects some people not at all and others (like me) a great deal.

I tend to find shadows are very persistent when soloing but fleeting the second you are in a group. Also in places such as Teren's Grasp, where its likely you need to lower the performance, shadows tend to not come back on I found.

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Old 05-20-2008, 09:20 PM   #56
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:
Andok wrote:

Also, gameplay is meaningless if people leave to play better looking games. 

Maybe if you're one of the lemmings who is only attracted to shinies.You're right, top-notch graphics are vital for a game to succeed. That's why WoW is such a failure....oh, wait.

Imagine we both buy the same sports car (pick one) and its a convertabile

You may choose to never take down the top of the car. That is your choice.

But to the the people who do want to take the top down, the top should come down when desired.

Same principle with the shadows: We all paid for the option to use shadows. There is a button to turn them off and on. Those who want them on, should be able to turn them on and they should STAY ON

That is the bottom line

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Old 05-20-2008, 09:22 PM   #57
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Andok wrote:
StormCinder wrote:

I turned my shadows on Friday afternoon to see what all of the fuss was about.  You know what...it really does add a cool extra layer of realism to play.  Looks beautiful.

Was playing today (Monday) and realized that I hadn't had the disappearing shadow issue.  Played about 15 hours over 3 days.  Am I lucky, or did they fix this?

SC

You may be lucky, or you may have a system that EQ2 really likes.  Please post your system specs.

I'm not sure that will be much help...not running anything super duper:

Q6600, 2.4GHz (Core2 Quad CPU)

EVGA 680i SLI MoBo

2GB Corsair DDR2 XMS2 (1GB x 2)

NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT (512MB onboard)

WinXP Pro SP3

My HD is about 3 years old.  I frankensteined this current setup in order to get Bioshock to work.  Again, nothing incredible or out of the ordinary...a decent rig, but by no means 'bleeding-edge' technology.  Since my HD is so old...my Windows install/registry is probably a real mess (I have at least 120 icons on my desktop.)

I average mid-high 40s FPS.

As I said, I'm not sure what it is...I guess I should buy lottery tickets.  Best of luck to the rest of you.

SC

PS Logged in tonight...shadows still there.

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Old 05-21-2008, 01:05 AM   #58
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Andok wrote:
[email protected] Bayle wrote:
Andok wrote:

Also, gameplay is meaningless if people leave to play better looking games. 

Maybe if you're one of the lemmings who is only attracted to shinies.You're right, top-notch graphics are vital for a game to succeed. That's why WoW is such a failure....oh, wait.
Are you able to make an argument without exaggerating your opponent’s statements?Just as soon as they start making sensible statements. Clearly, graphics even have some importance to you since you play with your settings turned up high enough to see shadows.  Since you claim that graphics are not that important yet you still crank your settings up high enough to show shadows (and even take a performance hit), imaging how gamers that think graphics are important feel. Show me where I've said they have no importance at all. Oh, wait, I haven't said that. What I've said is that they're not VERY important. The tiny particular detail of shadows isn't important enough to be raising a fuss over. Certainly not important enough to expect the devs to make it a priority no matter how long it's been broken. There are far more important issues to fix, and if fixing them means shadows never get fixed, I won't lose any sleep at all over it.Also, since you mentioned WoW, do a search on this board and see how many EQ2 players don’t play WoW because of that game’s crappy graphics.  How do you think all of those players will react when EQ2 is the game with crappy graphics (relative to the competition)?I think they're enough in the minority that it won't matter how they react. Let the shallow lemmings chase after shinies at the expense of gameplay if that's what they want.If you’re just being self-centered and don’t want the bug fixed because it doesn’t affect you, maybe thinking of having less people to group with will help you get on board with getting this bug fixed.What part of "I play with the shadows turned on" didn't you get? Yeah, I'm affected by this bug. But it's not a big deal and I think those fussing are making a mountain out of a molehill, as they say. It's a trivial bug and I couldn't care less if it never gets fixed. It'll be nice if it does, but that's it.
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:07 AM   #59
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ClawHammr wrote:
[email protected] Bayle wrote:
Andok wrote:

Also, gameplay is meaningless if people leave to play better looking games. 

Maybe if you're one of the lemmings who is only attracted to shinies.You're right, top-notch graphics are vital for a game to succeed. That's why WoW is such a failure....oh, wait.

Imagine we both buy the same sports car (pick one) and its a convertabile

You may choose to never take down the top of the car. That is your choice.

But to the the people who do want to take the top down, the top should come down when desired.

Yes, because putting the top down on a car has no more than a purely cosmetic effect. Like shadows in the game.Oh, wait....
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:42 AM   #60
DuskTwilight

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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:
ClawHammr wrote:
[email protected] Bayle wrote:
Andok wrote:

Also, gameplay is meaningless if people leave to play better looking games. 

Maybe if you're one of the lemmings who is only attracted to shinies.You're right, top-notch graphics are vital for a game to succeed. That's why WoW is such a failure....oh, wait.

Imagine we both buy the same sports car (pick one) and its a convertabile

You may choose to never take down the top of the car. That is your choice.

But to the the people who do want to take the top down, the top should come down when desired.

Yes, because putting the top down on a car has no more than a purely cosmetic effect. Like shadows in the game.Oh, wait....
Because features of anything a person pays for, be it a game, a car, or whatever should work as intended.Oh, wait....
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