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Old 10-28-2015, 04:38 PM   #61
Arco

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Bards won't want poisons unless the dmg counts towards VC's dmg...

I think swash, BL, and bards needed more than 30% CA boost to compensate for their already unbalanced situation.

Boosting everyone by the same margin won't help with balancing the classes.
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Old 10-28-2015, 04:45 PM   #62
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Nobody wants poisons, because we're tired of having to pay for our DPS (and debuffs with blue/purple). Mages, fighters, and healers get their DPS "naturally", but 4 scout classes have to pay extra to keep up with the mages.

Then factor in that the AA poison options for some classes being OP compared to the AAs options for other classes...there is no balance.

Using the mindset of "just give them more CA damage" is not fixing the problem. All poisons need to be gone, or just force mages to have to spend plat/time to use a similar item...and adjust their spell damage down so there is balance between chain DPS and cloth DPS.

Why do we bother with feedback, when it's obvious nobody has been listening for years?
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Old 10-28-2015, 04:51 PM   #63
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Good point and agreed. However, the situation still exists that except for those specific 'progression' raids where the survivabilty of the tank and raid are at risk, Swash utility is markedly lessened. Further, it is hard to imagine a scenario (given other class debuffs, Shaman for example) that a Swash would be required.
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Old 10-28-2015, 04:54 PM   #64
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Agreed. if all scouts get a 30% increase, then the absolute damage gap between an Assassin and say either a Swash or BL actually increases (at least in CA damage).
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:43 PM   #65
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I agree, why not poisons for all scouts in '16 and balance CA modifiers for each class from there? It's enough hearing the mages go on about autoattack and poison dmg but to also hear it from fellow scouts. I don't think this is the right answer necessarily but have heard enough mention of poisons being op. Or perhaps removed completely? Bump ca dmg up to compensate for the loss on rogues and predators? I would not mind pocketing the 100p a day im spending on them currently, similar to compressed ammo...

I don't mind spending it to squeeze out more dps but if my poison users can be balanced to do their similarly intended dps and i save my plat.. I think it's funny that people want to say how overpowered they are but someone suggests sharing it with these other classes and all of a sudden they dont want to pay for their dps.
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:56 PM   #66
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30% CA increase for swashbuckler combat arts won't help much to counteract the WDB cap. Most of our combat arts are pretty bad currently and we heavily rely on autoattack damage. I'd love to see some more balancing in our combat art damage rather than a flat increase.

Our temp buffs need to also be reworked as they don't do much at our current stat levels, especially the following:
  • Ruthless Cunning
  • Perfect Finesse
  • En Garde
  • Inspired Daring
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:58 PM   #67
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You can tame the Locusts at the end of the first quest tunnel. I forget the name. Also the Fire lizards/Fire Beatles/Bats
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:28 PM   #68
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Poison for all scouts is truly the way to go, along with some tweaks to the non-hemo poisons that other scouts can specialize via aa. While yes, assassins may have the highest poison numbers...they're built and specd that way so they should. It's w bonus for all the other classes too now that their increased pot will directly effect those numbers too

In regards to having to spend plat for dps....if you don't want to put out the numbers, go buy the cheap stuff or make them yourself
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:12 PM   #69
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I have no issue with preds DPSing higher than rogues. What I have issue with is that swashbuckler debuffs do not matter, and the brigand ones shine.

Summoners and rogues should be on the same level of DPS and debuffs, too. Just like bards and chanters are the buff classes.

I have no idea on where beastlords are supposed to be in this mess.
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:17 PM   #70
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Well considering beastlords and channelers bring in money for Daybreak I would be in awe if they left them as they are. In order to encourage sales they really need to bring up the parses of both classes. Theoratically they should be number 1 in both dps and heals respectively.
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:26 PM   #71
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Want to put out there, having group utility is nice but then we are becoming half bard, half dps, all hype...
Desirability comes in the form of having a viable option over another class, sad to say but that's the truth of the matter. Too many slots used up and not enough for all 9 dps classes so just being able to compete is making it desirable.

The argument for poisons should be for like bards ... have it as AA and have it as a passive proc dmg (scaling like poison on live to keep in line with mages) without costing any dps scouts time and effort for them.
Suggestions -
Change of engagement - MhD should be switched with the swash 10 pot debuff from myth, giving both rogues mhd and the swash the only scout dps withoutone (not counting the shared heroic AA)
Pirate's Swordplay - change the increment from 2 to 4 and keep it max at 16. It'll just increase 1-4 mob dps for swash and keep aoe dps the same.
Seafury Thrust and twisting Blade - each increment just lower base reuse (20 seconds at max) and change the extra hits from twisting to increase dmg to seafury. Keeping the physical dmg done to target would keep swash single up for the single single.
Pirate's Spin - just make inspired daring or engarde an always on buff and adjust values accordingly. kills 2 birds with one stone, pirate's spin underwhelming and to many swash temps would not be addressed in away.
Duelist Perception - Hate mod ... not needed for brig or swash due to some cas and abilities to throw hate away. Honestly why hate mod when we can reforge adorn and do various things for. should give off stance dmg proc and def stance Dr/mitigation proc .
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:26 PM   #72
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And this is so wrong in so many ways. >.<
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:34 PM   #73
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Lol, depressing thought huh?
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:38 PM   #74
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Please don't make scout DPS all about Poisons.

I want my DPS to come from pressing buttons, not passive procs.
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:42 PM   #75
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Errorrr....you must not raid or else you'd realize its impossible to get max CA dmg during the lag
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:56 PM   #76
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I've raided plenty. The lag can be bad, but it doesn't mean I want my class to be turn on auto attack and go afk.

Please stop advocating afk dps for scouts. It's such a dumb idea all round. Mages have to deal with the lag for their casting, up our abilities and perhaps consider lowering base recovery speed on combat arts too for assisting countering some lag.
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Old 10-29-2015, 12:10 AM   #77
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Then fix it. Servers are still located in LA instead of Chicago for reasons I can't comprehend. Remove complex hit rate mechanics. I can go on forever.
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Old 10-29-2015, 12:15 AM   #78
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I don't care how bad the lag gets... more button pushing, less passive dps

I would rather see my dps lacking from dealing with lag than to see myself pushing buttons that doesn't do crap for my parse but to proc all the passive dps...



Assassin should be the master of Hemotoxin
Ranger should be the master of Caustic
Rogues should be the masters of Vitality/Mental

Caustic needs to be adjusted so it is actually better for rangers to be using it over hemo...
Swash spec'd for Mental Breech should allow that poison to do hefty mana drains in PvE when it procs, so it has use for power drain fights...
I haven't looked at Vitality in a long time, but it probably also needs adjusted for PvE.



The Hemotoxin "band-aid" has been too over the top since it was added... hopefully the rumors of hemo doing less dmg atm in beta is true and planned to stay that way.

We're finally getting scout CAs boosted... it's time the band-aid was removed, right?
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:31 AM   #79
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Will need some confirmation of mechanics, due to possibility outdated information. For a long time the cap for mitigation debuffs has been 50 X mob level. So a lvl 110 mob is capped at 5500 mitigation debuffed. This makes things like dispatch, rake, debilitate and cornered a bit over the top with current values + 30% increase. I understand that the 30% increased values is a blanket adjustment for all scouts, but redundancy of caps vs values seems to be overlooked. I would love to see some different mechanics going in to play with debuffs in general. Dispatch could easily be adjusted to make mobs take a % based damage incoming from all sources. Swashbuckler debuffs have been dated for quite some time now and could have various factors added to them. Reduction in mob final ability damage, maybe even a targets target stoneskin? I don't play a swash, all I hear them want is more dps, so my information is limited about them.

Point being here, some of us actually play the rogues because we love debuffing and having that driving force behind the raid's success. However, as the game inches onward, debuffs are becoming like most of the buffs in the game. At one time they were very large increases to the effectiveness of a character but have been overlooked for so long that they are becoming obsolete.
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:56 AM   #80
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Rogues being masters of vitality/mental? Swashbucklers already have a hard time justifying their place in a raid force, and you want to make us even less viable with this way of thinking?

There was only 1 fight in AoM that I know (Arch Lich in Temple) of that required power drains to happen, and we let the mages who were able to power drain do that work while we DPS scouts were killing the add that was up.

I've not had to use health or power poisons for since...ever. It's always been hemo or caustic for my swashbuckler's red poison. Why waste 5 AA points on a mental poison that I never have used, when I can put it into something equally useless in the swashbuckler's other horrid AA debuff options?
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:36 AM   #81
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Swashbucklers would be useful if their debuffs changed the number of auto attacks anything it took to kill tanks players. Everyone already knew that though.

Yet player health is too small/encounter damage is too high for that to happen, and priests "like big numbers despite it being worse mechanically for them", so you need to convince developers to increase player health by 5~10 fold. That is an uphill battle because it will likely involve nerfing fighter itemization in some fashion. Everyone already knows this too.

So you're kinda screwed, but you hopefully knew that DPS kinda get screwed in this game.

P.S. I think it'd be great if it took more than one spell to heal someone so swashy debuffs could reasonably impact a group/raid. Every heal buff, including crit bonus/potency, goes in the opposite direction. We've been in the opposite direction for about 3~4 expansions straight now.
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Old 10-29-2015, 08:03 AM   #82
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Poision using scouts need their AAs revamped, so we all make use of the damage ones.

Swashbuckler red poison AA is for mental breech. LOL when was the last time any of us seriously used this flavor of red poison? We also get an AA for Turgur's (blue). Pass. I'll use those 10 AA points in something else. Swashbucklers also get an option for AA going into "offensive poisons" for strength and intelligence (purples). Yeah, that's what I want 3 colored poisons going and costing even more plat. Do blues or purples even work like they should? Do they even make a difference?

Brigand red poison AA is for vitality breech. Again LOL at that crappy option. Neither rogue class gets a red poison AA from their class AA tab like assassins (hemo) and rangers (caustic). They also get a "defensive poison" AA for agility and wisdom (purples)

On the rogue tab, we get an AA for ignorant bliss. Not really needed for a swashbuckler, thanks to hate xfer, and I doubt many brigands are using this AA (or ignorant bliss for that matter (blue poison).

On the Shadows line, both rogues get an AA for poison damage, which I do use.

Rangers get Fettering poison AA (blue and LOL if they're using that one). They also get an AA for direct damage red poison (caustic).

Assassins get an AA for the much heralded hemotoxin red poison in the assassin AA tab, and they get Poison Mastery in the Shadows tab on the assassin bottom line.

After comparing all 4 poison using scouts, do you see where the AA imbalance is in the red poisons now?

+++++++

As for the actual COST of our poisons: I'm an alchemist. I make my own. I spend time foraging for rare roots to make my own poisons. Then add in the cost of fuels for the poisons. You need 2 rare roots to make the top end poisons. 1 rare root for the middle, and none for the cheap ones.

Do you see mages having to go out and make an effort to supply their own poisons by harvesting? Do you see them spending lots of plat to supplement their DPS? NOPE. They get their DPS naturally from their spells. Like everyone else, they can invest the money into making/buying top end food and potions, but 4 scout classes have to put plat (and time if you make your own) into our red, blue, and purple poisons.

PS: I have 8 level 100 crafters (no sage) and I use all of them to support my raiding swashbuckler over the years. I make my own poisons, potions, ammo, food/drink, white/purple adorns. Pity player made armor, jewelry, charms, weapons, cloaks, and belts are only really good for early on in an expansion. They quickly get replaced once raid mobs start dropping. By the looks of things, all of my AoM/RC/fabled EoF gear will replaced by quested ToT gear and I doubt if I use any player made gear over quested ToT gear. If things happen like they did in AoM, my jeweler might end up making resist gear, and that's about it.
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Old 10-29-2015, 08:32 AM   #83
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Possible Swashy fixes...

1. Traumatic Swipe - increase and/or add more debuffs to it.
2. Add the Dispatch equivelant to the Swashy lineup.
3. Add something to Marauders Vaunt to include mages and healers. Also increase it's final ability damage amount to 7%.
4. Allow our 10 million temp buffs to be group AE by adding an option to the swashies AA tree (like you did with bard debuffs).
5. Change Swarthy Deception so it includes 28% threat transfer, 28% hate and 28% aggression.

I'm not sure if these are the correct fixes or not but I'm just adding to the idea pool. I would love to see swashy desirability increased. They were essentially left out of AoM, although a few guilds did run one.
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Old 10-29-2015, 08:48 AM   #84
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As I stated, the other poisons need an adjustment

Also stated that assassins (rangers too if they were to adjust caustic poisons) would be the #1 poison users. Don't expect rogues and bards to put out the same kind of numbers. Predators dps, rogues debuff, and bards buff...all I hear is rogues and bards talking about their dps numbers, while they should be talking about how they should be making everyone's numbers highrr
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:53 PM   #85
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I mean passive dps is gonna be there no matter what ... Temps are click but then become passive because it procs from melee/cas so in the end its a turn on/off passive ability...

Poison AA- make it have a total increase by 10% in all the scout with poison AA (rogues/preds) so we all can dps with poison and power drain with mental breach, i mean we don't need to limit only 1 class why not broaden it to all 4 *wink.

Only way i see Swash debuffs being meaningful is if it throw % base offensive debuffs instead of small dubious numbers...

If you consider debuffs a form of utility then all classes got some form of utility, the best utility was mhd and sins got that before any dps scout classes. Swash is the only one that does not have "their" own MhD(being shared with brigand on heroic tree does not count as "their" own unless brigand decides to not spec said ability) so that knocks us down in being warranted a spot.
Not trying to get swash a t1 spot .. but i want to get swash inline in dps with counterpart and counter class ie summoner. Best thing about brigands, when their dps was below swashes they were still needed in raids because of there debuffs, they'd replace a swash because u wouldn't wanna replace a sin with mhd/and the dps they bring.
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:46 PM   #86
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If swash utility isn't addressed, then they'll never be desired in raids until you make them a T1 dps, is the issue I see...

At this point... even the low utility class, Ranger, brings better utility to the raid than a swash, since a brig will already be in the raid.

I'm for adjusting swash dps, but if nothing is done about their utility, I'll still see them not wanted by raids.
Just out parsing the brigands won't make raids want a swash.
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Old 10-29-2015, 03:07 PM   #87
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I didn't do any heroic or raids yesterday on beta but my max hemo hit was 1 mil. And that is with a LOT more potency than I run on live. On live I'm usually between 5-12 mil depending on single target or AOE spec respectively.
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Old 10-29-2015, 08:42 PM   #88
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Less viable? How is fixing what is currently already there and what was originally intended, make you less viable?

No one said you would have to use vitality/mental all the time... Just that fixing those would give rogues that small bit of utility they lost....

Also, there's more mobs that need mana drained, even some trash, like FT that cast heals... atm mages can handle current mana drains easily... doesn't mean future mobs couldn't be made to allow it to be useful again.

I'm not a fan of pushing for all classes to be T1s.
Classes that are meant to have good utility, need to get good utility again.

Swash should be desired in raids for their utility and decent dps, not because they can parse like a T1.

That being said, I'm not disagreeing that swash still need more of an increase than the 30% boost all scouts received.
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Old 10-29-2015, 09:44 PM   #89
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If you defining utility as the debuffs then im all for % base debuff. Being able to debuff epic incoing heal be nice where if we fail the mob doesnt heal for say 5% but instead 2-3% of its health. If you want other things like a "epic" interrupt that be great as, being able to interrurpt a incoming aoe ever 3-5 mins knowing that we fubared cures or something.
I'm also all for homogenizing brigs and swash and keep the offensive debuffs in AAs while both class debuff defense, only difference is play style.
There are lots of ways going about many different aspects of the class but as i see it, swash, bl, and bards are on the back burner. Going into the new expac with expectations of being adjusted on the next gu and being strung along till the next expac again seems to be the course.
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Old 10-29-2015, 09:59 PM   #90
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Swashbucklers are already not really wanted or needed in a raid force, because our debuffs bring nothing to the table compared to brigands. They have yet to make a fight where our mental poison AA "talent" is needed in a fight. Let's say that being King of Mental Poison mattered in AoM. I'd only use that ability for one fight (last named in Temple). If I'm relying on my poison to drain that mob's power, I also can't be doing DPS.

When we do this fight, we time the 75% 50% 25% and 10% "run to the idol and click" events with when the add is not spawned. If we're close to 75% and getting an add to spawn, we'll hold DPS on the named and wait for the add to pop. If I'm staying on the named to keep his power low, I'm also adding DPS to the mob while my poison is power draining. This is why we have the REAL power draining classes on the named and the rest of us are beating down the add. Once the add is down, we then bring the named down to 75, 50, 25, 10, so we can be ready for 4 people to run out to the idols. I can't do one thing without the other. If I'm power draining with my poison, then I'm also doing DPS.

Doing away with poisons totally, and boosting the DPS of all 4 scouts that use poison would take care of this issue. Give preds T1 level combat art damage, and lessen the combat damage for rogues (T2). While they are doing that, give preds 0 buff/debuff skills, but pump up the rogue debuff skills to make up for the lack of our DPS numbers. Bards can keep on doing what they are doing in regards to buffing their groups. Again...I don't know where to toss in the beastlords in this whole equation, because beastlords (in theory) could fill a few different roles, and those roles depend on what the player wants to do with their character.

I never said I wanted to do the DPS of a predator. Long ago, someone asked what was the difference between a swashbuckler and a brigand. It was explained to me that brigs make the raid do more DPS on the mob and that the swashbuckers made the mob do less DPS on the raid. This was great for fights with the swashbuckler being in the MT group, because the hate transfer to the MT helped the tank hold aggro, and it was also helping the MT healers to keep their tank alive because of the constant debuffs that the swashbuckler was putting on the mob.

Then...things changed...to the point that swashbuckler debuffs didn't matter anymore, and most swashbucklers betrayed to brigand. Brigands got the scales tipped in their favor, and even started to get skills that used to be swashbuckler-only (like AoE block, only that the brigands got a better AoE block). AoE fights stopped seriously happening on raid fights, and it's only benefit showed up for trash clearing. Since brigands were better for single target DPS, they end up with another advantage over swashbucklers.

Gah...sorry for the long windedness of my comments. I'm just tired of feeling like I'm not being raid-worthy, even though my guild has never asked me to go brigand. I just know that as soon as we added a full time brigand to our raid force, our progression kicked in and we were able to get over the hump on a few mobs that stood in our way. Had I gone brigand years ago, this wouldn't have been an issue. I'm just too stubborn of a person and too comfortable playing a class that I've played since launch. I have a lot of time and effort put into my swashbuckler, and I just don't think I'd have the same enjoyment with my character if I turned him into a dirty brigand.
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