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Old 08-24-2012, 06:16 PM   #31
Koleg
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Davngr1 wrote:

i'm not seeing this.  please explain how exactly balancing the damage amongs tanks would favor single target?

In my experience,

on a single target mob, a Monk will beat all five other fighter types 99 times out of 100.  This arguement is little more than who should be 2nd and that is usually a coin flip with the other five depending on cooldowns.

On an multiple-mobs AE target, excuse me, what were you saying again... a Single target fighter should parse WHERE exactly?

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Old 08-24-2012, 06:25 PM   #32
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

Orthureon wrote:

Geothe wrote:

Orthureon wrote:

I ask why should a Guardian be able to do the same DPS as a Crusader? I cannot tank as well, I cannot taunt as well etc. If you ask for this you might as well ask for everything to be available to all classes. There are 24 classes for a reason.

Guardian should NOT be able to do the same DPS as a Crusader. However, that doesn't mean that Guardians do not deserve the same degree of increase Crusaders get in Reckless.  In just offensive stance, crusaders already do higher DPS than Guards, and currently with reckless, they get a much larger damage increase than guards on top of that.  It should be an equal damage % increase for all fighters.  Crusaders and Brawlers will still easily out DPS guards, but guards deserve an equal magnitude of DPS while using reckless stance that other fighters get as well.

I do agree with equal treatment, but some proposed ideas would just simply shift the DPS to favor single target tanks.

i'm not seeing this.  please explain how exactly balancing the damage amongs tanks would favor single target?

I know our raiding Guardians are putting out DPS equal to or very near T2 Utility, which IMO they should not be even that highbut due to SOE's 'Idea' of Hate Gain they must be, WHILE THEY ARE IN DEFENSIVE STANCE and you want them to do more Reckless DPS now too... 

First of all, I've like, nay LOVE, to see your raid which is sporting a Guardian and a crusader when they Guardian is actully USING Reckless and not the exclusive single target main tank.  <-- that does not exist in this game.  So Why exactly do Guardians even need more Reckless damage, even if SOE or I agreed with you?  They are in Defensive (or Offensive if thier overgeared) stance nearly all the time.  If they are in Reckless it is not inside a raid unless they are trying to show-off.  There aren't any Guardian's tanking in Reckless after the black was removed and IF there are still Guardians still tanking Skyshrine or Drunder HM raids in Reckless then Reckless not working as intended, but not becasue of any damage potential.

If you say ot think that Crusaders are able to do more DPS in single targets now compared to the Guardian and you increase that damage potential by a percentage, then the Crusader will again do exponentially more DPS than the Guardian after a percentage damage replaces a potency increase.  The end result would be the same, becasue more of more equals more just the same as more of less equals more, just less more than the other more.  L2DoMath.

how about berzerker?

  how exactly should paladin be doing more damage than them?

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Old 08-24-2012, 06:26 PM   #33
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

i'm not seeing this.  please explain how exactly balancing the damage amongs tanks would favor single target?

In my experience,

on a single target mob, a Monk will beat all five other fighter types 99 times out of 100.  This arguement is little more than who should be 2nd and that is usually a coin flip with the other five depending on cooldowns.

On an multiple-mobs AE target, excuse me, what were you saying again... a Single target fighter should parse WHERE exactly?

this is your personal situation. 

   i'm trying to discuss what classes are capable of doing not players since player skill/gear/buffs will be varied but actually class mechanics stay constant across the board.

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Old 08-24-2012, 06:29 PM   #34
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Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Our bruiser can top the zonewide and leave the mages and scouts in the dust on "fights that don't matter" of which he admits there's only 3-4 fights that "do matter".

 Fixed that one for you.

try our warlock topped the ZW for all of POW, only 1 fighter in the top 7, highest that a tank appeared on a dps parse on a named fight?? 5th.. 

Truth for you.

Post parses or it didn't happen.  Go on, post some zonewide parses from a variety of zones to show where the other fighters are, you won't.

  yea,  i would like to see this too since there have been several parses posted to show the imbalance but none to show the so called "balanced" set ups.

  of course one of the zones could be POW but you should also post the other easier zones that let tanks use reckelss stance the entire time with out having to worry about heavy inc damage.

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Old 08-24-2012, 06:37 PM   #35
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Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Our bruiser can top the zonewide and leave the mages and scouts in the dust on "fights that don't matter" of which he admits there's only 3-4 fights that "do matter".

 Fixed that one for you.

try our warlock topped the ZW for all of POW, only 1 fighter in the top 7, highest that a tank appeared on a dps parse on a named fight?? 5th.. 

Truth for you.

Post parses or it didn't happen.  Go on, post some zonewide parses from a variety of zones to show where the other fighters are, you won't.

http://i.imgur.com/0vPpq.png

Berik

http://i.imgur.com/XDhmo.png

Tagrin

http://i.imgur.com/01DhU.png

Eriak

http://i.imgur.com/xgaOQ.png

Commanders

http://i.imgur.com/40mHV.png

Teku

http://i.imgur.com/tF7cC.png

fighters are actually overrepresented on most of these fights and the trash because some of our top parsing dps were either pulling mobs or were sitting or afk whereas we kept 4 fighters in the entire zone even on fights they werent needed.. anyway you get the point.

Also dav, what better zone has as much diversity of fights and what is going on than POW? I could post dummy parses and you can get the Skyshrine experience.

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Old 08-24-2012, 06:38 PM   #36
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[email protected]_old wrote:

In my experience,

on a single target mob, a Monk will beat all five other fighter types 99 times out of 100.  This arguement is little more than who should be 2nd and that is usually a coin flip with the other five depending on cooldowns.

On an multiple-mobs AE target, excuse me, what were you saying again... a Single target fighter should parse WHERE exactly?

Darn it, you guys are making it really hard to hide how overpowered monks still are. As an 8-year veteran of the monk class, I would appreciate it if you would not talk about Dragonfire anymore. Thanks, guys!

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Old 08-24-2012, 07:01 PM   #37
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[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Our bruiser can top the zonewide and leave the mages and scouts in the dust on "fights that don't matter" of which he admits there's only 3-4 fights that "do matter".

 Fixed that one for you.

try our warlock topped the ZW for all of POW, only 1 fighter in the top 7, highest that a tank appeared on a dps parse on a named fight?? 5th.. 

Truth for you.

Post parses or it didn't happen.  Go on, post some zonewide parses from a variety of zones to show where the other fighters are, you won't.

http://i.imgur.com/0vPpq.png

Berik

http://i.imgur.com/XDhmo.png

Tagrin

http://i.imgur.com/01DhU.png

Eriak

http://i.imgur.com/xgaOQ.png

Commanders

http://i.imgur.com/40mHV.png

Teku

http://i.imgur.com/tF7cC.png

fighters are actually overrepresented on most of these fights and the trash because some of our top parsing dps were either pulling mobs or were sitting or afk whereas we kept 4 fighters in the entire zone even on fights they werent needed.. anyway you get the point.

Also dav, what better zone has as much diversity of fights and what is going on than POW? I could post dummy parses and you can get the Skyshrine experience.

I guess you missed the second part where I asked for zonewides... from a variety of zones but I do find it funny how a Bruiser was 4th ZW, over top of your Assassin.  LOL @ Bruiser > Assassin on the ZW in the hardest zone, ya know, the one that actually "matters".

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Old 08-24-2012, 07:21 PM   #38
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and the assassin and all the other dps beat the tanks on all the named... so yeah reckless is fine... Also the other zones? we dont do them any more outside of 2-3 grp optional offnights.. The next time we do them with an actual raid force and set groups ill post that ZW and you will see the exact same thing vicah... Good warlock will still top the parse over a fighter.

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Old 08-24-2012, 07:41 PM   #39
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[email protected] wrote:

and the assassin and all the other dps beat the tanks on all the named... so yeah reckless is fine... Also the other zones? we dont do them any more outside of 2-3 grp optional offnights.. The next time we do them with an actual raid force and set groups ill post that ZW and you will see the exact same thing vicah... Good warlock will still top the parse over a fighter.

I'll pose the question again... just like I did in the thread I started.  What's the point of a DPS class anymore?  As it stands now based on your information, the only reason to play a DPS class is for 5 PoW named.  If I want to do anything else, from a DPS perspective, I'm equally better off playing a Fighter than Mage or Scout.

So with that being said, Scout and Mage DPS are only good for 5 mobs in the entire game... coo... I'm so glad I rolled this tissue paper glass cannon class that can get out dps'd by a class than can turn into a tank within a couple seconds by switching stances.  Seems balanced to me.  Fighters can faceroll everything but 5 mobs where mages (but not scouts really) are needed.

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Old 08-24-2012, 07:45 PM   #40
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Davngr1 wrote:

Hennyo wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

it does not do what it is intended to do since it scales amazingly for crusaders, does ok for monks and it's pretty much who cares for warriors and bruiser. 

 how about zerk?   aren't they suppose to be the offensive warrior?  crusaders all ready had a raid spot locked before this stance but zerks?    

 this stance is broken, period.    it needs to be done right.

 ultimately a fix would lower crusader damage a bit and increase the other tanks damage proportional to their current damage potential.

It can do a ton for brusiers if you actually knew how to take advantage of it.

yes it's somewhat effective but monk gets better numbers (dragonfire) and both are smoked by crusaders.

 the point is that it's unbalanced.

 this isn't about one player since players will be varied.   i'm pretty sure my bruiser in def stance can out parse bad crusaders in reckelss but that means nothing.

Point 1. According to you monks get more out of recklessness than brusiers do, and crusaders get even more.

[email protected] wrote:

Also bruisers seem to be fine with reckless.. our bruiser can outparse both our SK and monk and usually is right there with them when they are in reckless.

Point 2. According to player in a guild that can kill everything bruisers are not behind other tanks, either crusaders or monks while in recklessness.

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Our bruiser can top the zonewide and leave the mages and scouts in the dust on "fights that don't matter" of which he admits there's only 3-4 fights that "do matter".

 Fixed that one for you.

try our warlock topped the ZW for all of POW, only 1 fighter in the top 7, highest that a tank appeared on a dps parse on a named fight?? 5th.. 

Truth for you.

Post parses or it didn't happen.  Go on, post some zonewide parses from a variety of zones to show where the other fighters are, you won't.

http://i.imgur.com/0vPpq.png

Berik

http://i.imgur.com/XDhmo.png

Tagrin

http://i.imgur.com/01DhU.png

Eriak

http://i.imgur.com/xgaOQ.png

Commanders

http://i.imgur.com/40mHV.png

Teku

http://i.imgur.com/tF7cC.png

fighters are actually overrepresented on most of these fights and the trash because some of our top parsing dps were either pulling mobs or were sitting or afk whereas we kept 4 fighters in the entire zone even on fights they werent needed.. anyway you get the point.

Also dav, what better zone has as much diversity of fights and what is going on than POW? I could post dummy parses and you can get the Skyshrine experience.

Point 3. Person in the guild that cleared everything posts a number of parses, including a zone wide parse for PoW showing the brusier in 4th, the highest parsing tank in their raid.

Final point, for brusiers that actually know how to take advantage of recklessness, they can parse up there with any other tank in recklessness. BTW I know what they are doing to have an amazing parse in recklessness, you probally just haven't figured it out, since it isn't anything as simple as single button.

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Old 08-24-2012, 07:47 PM   #41
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Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

and the assassin and all the other dps beat the tanks on all the named... so yeah reckless is fine... Also the other zones? we dont do them any more outside of 2-3 grp optional offnights.. The next time we do them with an actual raid force and set groups ill post that ZW and you will see the exact same thing vicah... Good warlock will still top the parse over a fighter.

I'll pose the question again... just like I did in the thread I started.  What's the point of a DPS class anymore?  As it stands now based on your information, the only reason to play a DPS class is for 5 PoW named.  If I want to do anything else, from a DPS perspective, I'm equally better off playing a Fighter than Mage or Scout.

So with that being said, Scout and Mage DPS are only good for 5 mobs in the entire game... coo... I'm so glad I rolled this tissue paper glass cannon class that can get out dps'd by a class than can turn into a tank within a couple seconds by switching stances.  Seems balanced to me.  Fighters can faceroll everything but 5 mobs where mages (but not scouts really) are needed.

dude.. 1 assassin got beat zw on trash even tho he fought 5 less minutes and on the entire teku fight was off running ballistae, if he were dps full time he would have easily beat the bruiser.. You play a dps to top the parses and wreck face.. fighters arent doing that.. you choose 1 person getting beat without even taking into consideration all the different factors and go all emo about how your class is worthless when, it clearly isnt...

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Old 08-24-2012, 08:03 PM   #42
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[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

and the assassin and all the other dps beat the tanks on all the named... so yeah reckless is fine... Also the other zones? we dont do them any more outside of 2-3 grp optional offnights.. The next time we do them with an actual raid force and set groups ill post that ZW and you will see the exact same thing vicah... Good warlock will still top the parse over a fighter.

I'll pose the question again... just like I did in the thread I started.  What's the point of a DPS class anymore?  As it stands now based on your information, the only reason to play a DPS class is for 5 PoW named.  If I want to do anything else, from a DPS perspective, I'm equally better off playing a Fighter than Mage or Scout.

So with that being said, Scout and Mage DPS are only good for 5 mobs in the entire game... coo... I'm so glad I rolled this tissue paper glass cannon class that can get out dps'd by a class than can turn into a tank within a couple seconds by switching stances.  Seems balanced to me.  Fighters can faceroll everything but 5 mobs where mages (but not scouts really) are needed.

dude.. 1 assassin got beat zw on trash even tho he fought 5 less minutes and on the entire teku fight was off running ballistae, if he were dps full time he would have easily beat the bruiser.. You play a dps to top the parses and wreck face.. fighters arent doing that.. you choose 1 person getting beat without even taking into consideration all the different factors and go all emo about how your class is worthless when, it clearly isnt...

I guess I'll just have to tell Hert he's a liar when he links parses where he crushes the mages and scouts.  Clearly he's altered them in a way to make himself look good so that he can feel good about himself and sleep at night.  The recent 1 mil+ dps parse from him on Flames, must be a photoshop.  Whew, glad you cleared this up, it all makes sense now. 

Also, if you think I'm choosing just 1 person, fine... look at your Brig.  He lost the ZW and every named to your Bruiser.  I'm sure Kao could of been higher but he was prolly off harvesting a shiny, right?  Feel free to tell me how Brig's aren't DPS classes and blah blah blah.  Bruiser > Brig, GG.

P.S. My class is worthless, except on 5 fights which of course are the ones that "matter".

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Old 08-24-2012, 08:08 PM   #43
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The brigand classes personal dps has been a bit poor compared to other classes at their same point in the dps tiers for awhile now, and that is separate different issue, that probably needs to be addressed. Oh, also dps only matters on fights where people actually have to apply themselves, because really does anyone really care about whats required to get gear anyone can get?
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:17 PM   #44
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Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

and the assassin and all the other dps beat the tanks on all the named... so yeah reckless is fine... Also the other zones? we dont do them any more outside of 2-3 grp optional offnights.. The next time we do them with an actual raid force and set groups ill post that ZW and you will see the exact same thing vicah... Good warlock will still top the parse over a fighter.

I'll pose the question again... just like I did in the thread I started.  What's the point of a DPS class anymore?  As it stands now based on your information, the only reason to play a DPS class is for 5 PoW named.  If I want to do anything else, from a DPS perspective, I'm equally better off playing a Fighter than Mage or Scout.

So with that being said, Scout and Mage DPS are only good for 5 mobs in the entire game... coo... I'm so glad I rolled this tissue paper glass cannon class that can get out dps'd by a class than can turn into a tank within a couple seconds by switching stances.  Seems balanced to me.  Fighters can faceroll everything but 5 mobs where mages (but not scouts really) are needed.

dude.. 1 assassin got beat zw on trash even tho he fought 5 less minutes and on the entire teku fight was off running ballistae, if he were dps full time he would have easily beat the bruiser.. You play a dps to top the parses and wreck face.. fighters arent doing that.. you choose 1 person getting beat without even taking into consideration all the different factors and go all emo about how your class is worthless when, it clearly isnt...

I guess I'll just have to tell Hert he's a liar when he links parses where he crushes the mages and scouts.  Clearly he's altered them in a way to make himself look good so that he can feel good about himself and sleep at night.  The recent 1 mil+ dps parse from him on Flames, must be a photoshop.  Whew, glad you cleared this up, it all makes sense now. 

Also, if you think I'm choosing just 1 person, fine... look at your Brig.  He lost the ZW and every named to your Bruiser.  I'm sure Kao could of been higher but he was prolly off harvesting a shiny, right?  Feel free to tell me how Brig's aren't DPS classes and blah blah blah.  Bruiser > Brig, GG.

P.S. My class is worthless, except on 5 fights which of course are the ones that "matter".

Well considering i just linked the ENTIRE ZONE whereas hert was linking you parses where he won, no wonder he did well on those parses dude.. You are whining and yet the lock topped the parse.. This is why these threads get locked. you are saying your class is worthless even though i linked you hours worth of parses telling you otherwise...

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Old 08-24-2012, 08:23 PM   #45
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Want to know how many times hert broke 1mill dps last night on stuff that doesnt matter? once. Know how many time moriddin broke 1mill dps on same trash? 17..

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Old 08-24-2012, 08:35 PM   #46
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[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

and the assassin and all the other dps beat the tanks on all the named... so yeah reckless is fine... Also the other zones? we dont do them any more outside of 2-3 grp optional offnights.. The next time we do them with an actual raid force and set groups ill post that ZW and you will see the exact same thing vicah... Good warlock will still top the parse over a fighter.

I'll pose the question again... just like I did in the thread I started.  What's the point of a DPS class anymore?  As it stands now based on your information, the only reason to play a DPS class is for 5 PoW named.  If I want to do anything else, from a DPS perspective, I'm equally better off playing a Fighter than Mage or Scout.

So with that being said, Scout and Mage DPS are only good for 5 mobs in the entire game... coo... I'm so glad I rolled this tissue paper glass cannon class that can get out dps'd by a class than can turn into a tank within a couple seconds by switching stances.  Seems balanced to me.  Fighters can faceroll everything but 5 mobs where mages (but not scouts really) are needed.

dude.. 1 assassin got beat zw on trash even tho he fought 5 less minutes and on the entire teku fight was off running ballistae, if he were dps full time he would have easily beat the bruiser.. You play a dps to top the parses and wreck face.. fighters arent doing that.. you choose 1 person getting beat without even taking into consideration all the different factors and go all emo about how your class is worthless when, it clearly isnt...

I guess I'll just have to tell Hert he's a liar when he links parses where he crushes the mages and scouts.  Clearly he's altered them in a way to make himself look good so that he can feel good about himself and sleep at night.  The recent 1 mil+ dps parse from him on Flames, must be a photoshop.  Whew, glad you cleared this up, it all makes sense now. 

Also, if you think I'm choosing just 1 person, fine... look at your Brig.  He lost the ZW and every named to your Bruiser.  I'm sure Kao could of been higher but he was prolly off harvesting a shiny, right?  Feel free to tell me how Brig's aren't DPS classes and blah blah blah.  Bruiser > Brig, GG.

P.S. My class is worthless, except on 5 fights which of course are the ones that "matter".

Well considering i just linked the ENTIRE ZONE whereas hert was linking you parses where he won, no wonder he did well on those parses dude.. You are whining and yet the lock topped the parse.. This is why these threads get locked. you are saying your class is worthless even though i linked you hours worth of parses telling you otherwise...

So, on the ENTIRE ZONE, your Bruiser was 4th on the zonewide.  You don't see the problem?

Ask Moriddin or Johe to post on here and have them set me straight on if he thinks Reckelessness is OP. 

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Old 08-24-2012, 08:36 PM   #47
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[email protected] wrote:

Want to know how many times hert broke 1mill dps last night on stuff that doesnt matter? once. Know how many time moriddin broke 1mill dps on same trash? 17..

I'd be curious to see a merged trash parse and see how many DPS classes a Bruiser can beat.

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Old 08-24-2012, 08:41 PM   #48
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Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

and the assassin and all the other dps beat the tanks on all the named... so yeah reckless is fine... Also the other zones? we dont do them any more outside of 2-3 grp optional offnights.. The next time we do them with an actual raid force and set groups ill post that ZW and you will see the exact same thing vicah... Good warlock will still top the parse over a fighter.

I'll pose the question again... just like I did in the thread I started.  What's the point of a DPS class anymore?  As it stands now based on your information, the only reason to play a DPS class is for 5 PoW named.  If I want to do anything else, from a DPS perspective, I'm equally better off playing a Fighter than Mage or Scout.

So with that being said, Scout and Mage DPS are only good for 5 mobs in the entire game... coo... I'm so glad I rolled this tissue paper glass cannon class that can get out dps'd by a class than can turn into a tank within a couple seconds by switching stances.  Seems balanced to me.  Fighters can faceroll everything but 5 mobs where mages (but not scouts really) are needed.

dude.. 1 assassin got beat zw on trash even tho he fought 5 less minutes and on the entire teku fight was off running ballistae, if he were dps full time he would have easily beat the bruiser.. You play a dps to top the parses and wreck face.. fighters arent doing that.. you choose 1 person getting beat without even taking into consideration all the different factors and go all emo about how your class is worthless when, it clearly isnt...

I guess I'll just have to tell Hert he's a liar when he links parses where he crushes the mages and scouts.  Clearly he's altered them in a way to make himself look good so that he can feel good about himself and sleep at night.  The recent 1 mil+ dps parse from him on Flames, must be a photoshop.  Whew, glad you cleared this up, it all makes sense now. 

Also, if you think I'm choosing just 1 person, fine... look at your Brig.  He lost the ZW and every named to your Bruiser.  I'm sure Kao could of been higher but he was prolly off harvesting a shiny, right?  Feel free to tell me how Brig's aren't DPS classes and blah blah blah.  Bruiser > Brig, GG.

P.S. My class is worthless, except on 5 fights which of course are the ones that "matter".

Well considering i just linked the ENTIRE ZONE whereas hert was linking you parses where he won, no wonder he did well on those parses dude.. You are whining and yet the lock topped the parse.. This is why these threads get locked. you are saying your class is worthless even though i linked you hours worth of parses telling you otherwise...

So, on the ENTIRE ZONE, your Bruiser was 4th on the zonewide.  You don't see the problem?

Ask Moriddin or Johe to post on here and have them set me straight on if he thinks Reckelessness is OP. 

no.. he was in for all of trash, we had a lot of dps switching in and out or taking extended afk or just plain slacking because it is trash.. Hert is a good player no doubt but he is constantly outparsed by all of our DPS because they do more dps.. period.. like if you set everybody in a vacuum and everybody pressed all their buttons properly he wouldnt beat any of the dps which is how it should be.. That being said, he is going to beat them if they are slacking or dead or off running ballistae or just mia for 5 mins..

also if there was any sort of problem with it you better believe moriddin and all the other t1 dps from Equil and Revs would be on here talking about getting beat by these overpowered fighters and guess what? We would replace dps classes with fighters because they are less emo and are apparently making your class worthless.. Guess how many guilds are recruiting fighters to replace their dps classes? ZERO. That in of itself should tell you all you need to know.

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Old 08-24-2012, 08:50 PM   #49
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Haha ok vicah, glad to see this is where the conversation is going... You go from claiming the stance is overpowered and you are worthless even tho all of our dps classes constantly, not every now and then, constantly beat our fighters.. You have an issue with the stance but that doesnt mean it is broken or even adversely affects the raiding dynamic in a negative way...

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Old 08-24-2012, 09:15 PM   #50
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[email protected] wrote:

Haha ok vicah, glad to see this is where the conversation is going... You go from claiming the stance is overpowered and you are worthless even tho all of our dps classes constantly, not every now and then, constantly beat our fighters.. You have an issue with the stance but that doesnt mean it is broken or even adversely affects the raiding dynamic in a negative way...

For the content that I choose to play, YES, Recklessness Stance is OP and a pure DPS class is in fact worthless. I’ve shown my parses, and I’ve stated my case in other threads. I can show some more parses if you like, but it won't change your mind.

PoW isn't the only zone that matters for the majority of players.  In fact, PoW doesn't matter at all to me what so ever.  There's a big difference between what matters to me and what matters to you.  Just because I don't raid PoW, that doesn't invalidate my experiences and observations.  IMHO, based on the ZW parse you linked,  Recklessness is a bit OP.  If you don't think it's OP, cool, that's your opinion.  TBH, it really could use a boost for Guards for all I care and since you are a Guard I can see how you think it's not really all that great.  Hop on a geared SK and get some buffs, and you might be singing a different tune.

Oh well, I guess we're done here again.  After this thread is locked, I'll see ya on the next one that pops up and we'll go through this routine again.  Peace out!

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Old 08-24-2012, 09:37 PM   #51
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I think the dps reflects the situation just fine, it is supposed to give tanks a sizeable dps boost at the cost of a LOT of survivability.. Good tanks can beat a slacking DPS but both giving 100% the dps wins 10/10 barring unforseen stuff like eriak fight (fears, run away click and cancel, joust.) Ill see you in the next thread sir.

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Old 08-24-2012, 10:47 PM   #52
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The funny thing about this whole thread is that dps classes are complaining about a bruiser in reckless stance when that is not even the issue. The truth is that it is NOT reckless stance that is causing these high parses. A bruiser in reckless stance is not going to parse high unless they are also specced for Viscious combination temps and time the use of those temps with divine recovery. They are going to need a separate set of DPS gear as well.

It is a complex relationship between different abilities that are individually NOT over powered but when used correctly with other abilities can be extremely effective. Basically players that know what they are doing and can figure out min/maxing to their classes greatest potential can and always will be over powered. You can't nerf the player behind the keyboard.

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Old 08-25-2012, 02:17 AM   #53
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Yes, if you have all your dps afk a bruiser will dps really well with healers aiding them on fights completely void of aoe's that can do enough damage to at least fill a spot in a raid?

No, Not playing with adverage healers. It is not viable in any actual named incounter that is moderately difficult.

There really is no what if situation trash /cry amazing special attention that couldnt be given to an assassin/beastlord who cuoldn't parse double what the fighter would parse with that special attention.

There is also no, " I heared about this guy..." or " People who's brother has a bruiser said Reckless is OP"

How about having 4 bards 4 enchanters and at least 6 healers in a raid is op.

Cant block attacks. You cant tank difficult content. You could do heroic stuff with enough gear. The dps loss of healers to keep you up in raids wouldn't cause any imbalance in raids. No tank could tank a hard raid mob in this stance. 50% damage increase is just stupid. 50k auto attack pretty much one shots since double attacks etc are garenteed to hit. Aoe's that you have to take because most of your saves are down for things like death touches and add coop avoidance precautions. No tank could tank in it. The stance is made to dps. Yes, you should be able to dps as a brawler or an ot when you aren't off tanking. No it doesn't replace other classes because having alternating roles are a tanks position in the game. We arent always in this stance. Therefor you cant say its is overpowered. Potentcy isnt that big of a damage output increase for melee hit rates. It alows for a tank to spike and help when a player wants to play a tank and still be useful when not fufliling a single tanking role. Double bard group? extra fury in the group for no reason even though furies havent healed well in.... EVER..... no thank you.

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Old 08-25-2012, 03:31 AM   #54
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Hennyo wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

Hennyo wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

it does not do what it is intended to do since it scales amazingly for crusaders, does ok for monks and it's pretty much who cares for warriors and bruiser. 

 how about zerk?   aren't they suppose to be the offensive warrior?  crusaders all ready had a raid spot locked before this stance but zerks?    

 this stance is broken, period.    it needs to be done right.

 ultimately a fix would lower crusader damage a bit and increase the other tanks damage proportional to their current damage potential.

It can do a ton for brusiers if you actually knew how to take advantage of it.

yes it's somewhat effective but monk gets better numbers (dragonfire) and both are smoked by crusaders.

 the point is that it's unbalanced.

 this isn't about one player since players will be varied.   i'm pretty sure my bruiser in def stance can out parse bad crusaders in reckelss but that means nothing.

Point 1. According to you monks get more out of recklessness than brusiers do, and crusaders get even more.

[email protected] wrote:

Also bruisers seem to be fine with reckless.. our bruiser can outparse both our SK and monk and usually is right there with them when they are in reckless.

Point 2. According to player in a guild that can kill everything bruisers are not behind other tanks, either crusaders or monks while in recklessness.

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Our bruiser can top the zonewide and leave the mages and scouts in the dust on "fights that don't matter" of which he admits there's only 3-4 fights that "do matter".

 Fixed that one for you.

try our warlock topped the ZW for all of POW, only 1 fighter in the top 7, highest that a tank appeared on a dps parse on a named fight?? 5th.. 

Truth for you.

Post parses or it didn't happen.  Go on, post some zonewide parses from a variety of zones to show where the other fighters are, you won't.

http://i.imgur.com/0vPpq.png

Berik

http://i.imgur.com/XDhmo.png

Tagrin

http://i.imgur.com/01DhU.png

Eriak

http://i.imgur.com/xgaOQ.png

Commanders

http://i.imgur.com/40mHV.png

Teku

http://i.imgur.com/tF7cC.png

fighters are actually overrepresented on most of these fights and the trash because some of our top parsing dps were either pulling mobs or were sitting or afk whereas we kept 4 fighters in the entire zone even on fights they werent needed.. anyway you get the point.

Also dav, what better zone has as much diversity of fights and what is going on than POW? I could post dummy parses and you can get the Skyshrine experience.

Point 3. Person in the guild that cleared everything posts a number of parses, including a zone wide parse for PoW showing the brusier in 4th, the highest parsing tank in their raid.

Final point, for brusiers that actually know how to take advantage of recklessness, they can parse up there with any other tank in recklessness. BTW I know what they are doing to have an amazing parse in recklessness, you probally just haven't figured it out, since it isn't anything as simple as single button.

 that is player ability at work there guy..

 i have known that bruiser since kos and he's always been a beast parser and the crusader in that raid has been called out for being a bad parser.

  this is simple mechanics here..  no real need to argue. 

   bruiser damage is mostly from auto attack and auto attack is not increased by reckless.

  crusader damage is mostly from ca's and it IS increased by reckless.

 to argue this is pointless.

  dargonfire > VC

 it's not even up for debate..  everyone knows that.

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Old 08-25-2012, 03:36 AM   #55
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Hennyo wrote:

The brigand classes personal dps has been a bit poor compared to other classes at their same point in the dps tiers for awhile now, and that is separate different issue, that probably needs to be addressed. Oh, also dps only matters on fights where people actually have to apply themselves, because really does anyone really care about whats required to get gear anyone can get?

i do.

 i play a dps class to win parses and compeate on every pull and do for the most part

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Old 08-25-2012, 03:41 AM   #56
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[email protected] wrote:

I think the dps reflects the situation just fine, it is supposed to give tanks a sizeable dps boost at the cost of a LOT of survivability.. Good tanks can beat a slacking DPS but both giving 100% the dps wins 10/10 barring unforseen stuff like eriak fight (fears, run away click and cancel, joust.) Ill see you in the next thread sir.

  now post parses from the other zones.   i'm sure even your crusaders are topping on those.  

 on a side note.   what kind of terrible group do you have poor duele in ?  omg..   that's is just pittiful to be outparsed by a bruiser by that much.  he must be in the fat kid group

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Old 08-25-2012, 03:49 AM   #57
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Novusod wrote:

The funny thing about this whole thread is that dps classes are complaining about a bruiser in reckless stance when that is not even the issue. The truth is that it is NOT reckless stance that is causing these high parses. A bruiser in reckless stance is not going to parse high unless they are also specced for Viscious combination temps and time the use of those temps with divine recovery. They are going to need a separate set of DPS gear as well.

It is a complex relationship between different abilities that are individually NOT over powered but when used correctly with other abilities can be extremely effective. Basically players that know what they are doing and can figure out min/maxing to their classes greatest potential can and always will be over powered. You can't nerf the player behind the keyboard.

getting this ability changed is more about fixing broken aspects of it and giving all tanks equal footing.     yes, good players will always do amazing things but player skill is not in question here.   what is in question is an unbalanced ability that needs to be adjusted, removed or changed all together.   anything except leave it as is.

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Old 08-25-2012, 10:53 AM   #58
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Davngr1 wrote:

 that is player ability at work there guy..

 i have known that bruiser since kos and he's always been a beast parser and the crusader in that raid has been called out for being a bad parser.

  this is simple mechanics here..  no real need to argue. 

   bruiser damage is mostly from auto attack and auto attack is not increased by reckless.

  crusader damage is mostly from ca's and it IS increased by reckless.

 to argue this is pointless.

  dargonfire > VC

 it's not even up for debate..  everyone knows that.

LOL.  It is amazing how little people seem to actually know.

First, yes Bruisers see a great increase from Recklessness just like Monks do and Crusaders do.

Second, the stance is still broken for Brawlers still which is why it is much easier for them to parse higher on mobs.  This is something that Xelgad said he was going to look into.  Having negative hate positionals allows them to shed agro and actually utilize the stance easier.  This would be nice for all Fighters in the stance.

Third, relates to the above.  That yes I can parse just as well as Hert on trash IF I DON'T DIE.  The problem is that as a SK I become such an agro machine that everything is on me and I end up blowing all of my temp survival abilities on a single group of boars and pray I still don't die to finish the parse well.  Dying and making the Dirge rez me just lowers overall raid DPS and so I let Hert play in the stance and just plan on tanking for all the memwipes and not go in the stance.

Fourth, Bro your parses are skewed because they are named centric parses and don't show add DPS.

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Old 08-25-2012, 02:31 PM   #59
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I don't use reckless stance, because as a guard, my own combat arts make up less than 25% of my dps, and the increased potency is not worth the decreased survivability for me.

Also I'm never invited to a group or raid to dps trash harder. My role is never dps. If I'm not tanking, I'm in d stance chain pulling trash back to the raid. Or I'm fighting a named and the extra 15k dps is not going to do anything worthwhile compared to the loss of defense.

Plus for the most part everyone is basing their opinions within the narrow scope of their own guild and raid setup. Your guild's (fill in class)'s performance relative to other players in your guild doesn't mean a whole lot by itself. SOE has a much broader scope of what everyone is doing.

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Old 08-25-2012, 03:46 PM   #60
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Bruener wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

 that is player ability at work there guy..

 i have known that bruiser since kos and he's always been a beast parser and the crusader in that raid has been called out for being a bad parser.

  this is simple mechanics here..  no real need to argue. 

   bruiser damage is mostly from auto attack and auto attack is not increased by reckless.

  crusader damage is mostly from ca's and it IS increased by reckless.

 to argue this is pointless.

  dargonfire > VC

 it's not even up for debate..  everyone knows that.

LOL.  It is amazing how little people seem to actually know.

First, yes Bruisers see a great increase from Recklessness just like Monks do and Crusaders do.

Second, the stance is still broken for Brawlers still which is why it is much easier for them to parse higher on mobs.  This is something that Xelgad said he was going to look into.  Having negative hate positionals allows them to shed agro and actually utilize the stance easier.  This would be nice for all Fighters in the stance.

Third, relates to the above.  That yes I can parse just as well as Hert on trash IF I DON'T DIE.  The problem is that as a SK I become such an agro machine that everything is on me and I end up blowing all of my temp survival abilities on a single group of boars and pray I still don't die to finish the parse well.  Dying and making the Dirge rez me just lowers overall raid DPS and so I let Hert play in the stance and just plan on tanking for all the memwipes and not go in the stance.

Fourth, Bro your parses are skewed because they are named centric parses and don't show add DPS.

ok..  that makes more sense but you're still wrong about brusier gettng more than crusader out of the stance.   it's plain and simple. crusader get more from ca/spells and thus get more benefit from this stance also you probably don't have an inquis and troub in your group.  two classses that are huge damage for crusaders in reckless.

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