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Old 07-23-2012, 10:56 AM   #1
Drumstix

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How many times has this been in Test notes now? It's still increasing potency on taunts.

I mean I could care less if the hate mod reduction was higher or something.

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Old 07-23-2012, 11:21 AM   #2
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Im sure one of the issues they are trying to overcome and balance is that Reckless needs to have some form of RISK attached to it while at the same time cannot be en instant death sentance to the fighter trying to show off thier DPS.  The who concept of (-)30% fars very short on fighters who are in the T2 range to begin with now and with Reckless will be doing even more DPS, which will mean more threat generation.

This is such a fundamental change to the games mechanic and class balancing, potentially benching 2 to 6 classes from ever being included again in raids.  It needs to work "as intended" from the get-go or it will be a bigger flop than the DF system ever was.

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Old 07-23-2012, 11:27 AM   #3
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[email protected]_old wrote:

This is such a fundamental change to the games mechanic and class balancing, potentially benching 2 to 6 classes from ever being included again in raids.  It needs to work "as intended" from the get-go or it will be a bigger flop than the DF system ever was.

No joke. I've already talked to rogues who aren't too hot on this thing. I'm not exactly safe as a ranger either. I doubt they could out DPS me on any sort of regular basis but the fact they can also be a raid tank by switching stances, in-combat or not, makes what little utility I have look non-existent.

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Old 07-23-2012, 11:49 AM   #4
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

This is such a fundamental change to the games mechanic and class balancing, potentially benching 2 to 6 classes from ever being included again in raids.  It needs to work "as intended" from the get-go or it will be a bigger flop than the DF system ever was.

No joke. I've already talked to rogues who aren't too hot on this thing. I'm not exactly safe as a ranger either. I doubt they could out DPS me on any sort of regular basis but the fact they can also be a raid tank by switching stances, in-combat or not, makes what little utility I have look non-existent.

To simply address this "concern".  Rogues have debuffs no other classes have access to and is their desireability in raid.  The amount of raid DPS a Brig brings is massive.

Rangers will be fine in relation.  They get to do their DPS with very little down side, (cost of arrows).  Meaning they get to range and unlike Fighters in Recklessness they do not have the agro issues.

Potency affecting Taunts needs to be fixed because it doesn't make sense for the stance to generate even that much more Hate.  Fighters don't have detaunts or access to -hate gain unless they adorn for it.  In which case if they do it affects their ability to tank drastically.  With how the stance is now on test even if you take away the potency affecting Taunts it is going to be extremely hard to keep mobs off of a Recklessness Fighter.

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Old 07-23-2012, 12:01 PM   #5
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I noticed the same thing with potency today again... but have you looked at the reckless stance description lately?

I'ts getting more bonkers with every patch I think:

http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums...klessstance.jpg

30% dehate first line and what we see in our character stats, later it says "caster of relentless gains 50% less hate"....

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Old 07-23-2012, 12:04 PM   #6
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

This is such a fundamental change to the games mechanic and class balancing, potentially benching 2 to 6 classes from ever being included again in raids.  It needs to work "as intended" from the get-go or it will be a bigger flop than the DF system ever was.

No joke. I've already talked to rogues who aren't too hot on this thing. I'm not exactly safe as a ranger either. I doubt they could out DPS me on any sort of regular basis but the fact they can also be a raid tank by switching stances, in-combat or not, makes what little utility I have look non-existent.

To simply address this "concern".  Rogues have debuffs no other classes have access to and is their desireability in raid.  The amount of raid DPS a Brig brings is massive.

Rangers will be fine in relation.  They get to do their DPS with very little down side, (cost of arrows).  Meaning they get to range and unlike Fighters in Recklessness they do not have the agro issues.

Potency affecting Taunts needs to be fixed because it doesn't make sense for the stance to generate even that much more Hate.  Fighters don't have detaunts or access to -hate gain unless they adorn for it.  In which case if they do it affects their ability to tank drastically.  With how the stance is now on test even if you take away the potency affecting Taunts it is going to be extremely hard to keep mobs off of a Recklessness Fighter.

You know as well as anyone else, maybe even more so, that Utility is easily overcome via DPS.  The End.  The End to the 2 to 6 classes that have moderate DPS with moderate utility.  The End to the need to carry high risk low reward rouges and predators.  The End for the concern of managing debuffs on mobs so the raid can do more DPS becasue the raid IS doing more DPS.

If SOE simply reverses the threat generation or reduces threat generation too much while in Reckless then there would be no Risk involved and that IS the whole point of the stance.

It funny you support the other low utility DPS and T2-DPS-Utility scouts, saying they will be fine, which IMO they will -not-, but then tell a story of Woe with the fighters not being able to adorn for (-) hate.  Nearly every raid tank I know loots 2 sets of gear, one for Tanking (Mitigation & Block) and another set for DPS (Flurry) and adorn each set differently.  They can always lootwhore up a 3rd set of gear and drop (-) Hate Gain on it.  Including Yellow and Red slots they can adorn for well past -50% which would stack with the Reckless (-) 30%.  I'd be suprised if fighters couldn't get to (-)100% self buffed hate reduction which is the cap.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:12 PM   #7
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

This is such a fundamental change to the games mechanic and class balancing, potentially benching 2 to 6 classes from ever being included again in raids.  It needs to work "as intended" from the get-go or it will be a bigger flop than the DF system ever was.

No joke. I've already talked to rogues who aren't too hot on this thing. I'm not exactly safe as a ranger either. I doubt they could out DPS me on any sort of regular basis but the fact they can also be a raid tank by switching stances, in-combat or not, makes what little utility I have look non-existent.

To simply address this "concern".  Rogues have debuffs no other classes have access to and is their desireability in raid.  The amount of raid DPS a Brig brings is massive.

Rangers will be fine in relation.  They get to do their DPS with very little down side, (cost of arrows).  Meaning they get to range and unlike Fighters in Recklessness they do not have the agro issues.

Potency affecting Taunts needs to be fixed because it doesn't make sense for the stance to generate even that much more Hate.  Fighters don't have detaunts or access to -hate gain unless they adorn for it.  In which case if they do it affects their ability to tank drastically.  With how the stance is now on test even if you take away the potency affecting Taunts it is going to be extremely hard to keep mobs off of a Recklessness Fighter.

You know as well as anyone else, maybe even more so, that Utility is easily overcome via DPS.  The End.  The End to the 2 to 6 classes that have moderate DPS with moderate utility.  The End to the need to carry high risk low reward rouges and predators.  The End for the concern of managing debuffs on mobs so the raid can do more DPS becasue the raid IS doing more DPS.

If SOE simply reverses the threat generation or reduces threat generation too much while in Reckless then there would be no Risk involved and that IS the whole point of the stance.

It funny you support the other low utility DPS and T2-DPS-Utility scouts, saying they will be fine, which IMO they will -not-, but then tell a story of Woe with the fighters not being able to adorn for (-) hate.  Nearly every raid tank I know loots 2 sets of gear, one for Tanking (Mitigation & Block) and another set for DPS (Flurry) and adorn each set differently.  They can always lootwhore up a 3rd set of gear and drop (-) Hate Gain on it.  Including Yellow and Red slots they can adorn for well past -50% which would stack with the Reckless (-) 30%.  I'd be suprised if fighters couldn't get to (-)100% self buffed hate reduction which is the cap.

Alright.  If we simply lay it out in simple terms.

Is the stance going to push raids to want to bring a 5th or even 6th Fighter.  No.

Is the stance going to give the raid more DPS during trash and encounters that require only a couple Fighters if they keep in a 3rd and 4th fighter, compared to Live.  Yes.

The way I see it is the stance gives Fighters a little bit of flexibility for DPS which will have raids keeping in the 3rd and 4th Fighter full time instead of just bringing them in for encounters that require their extra tanking.

Are you really going to complain about Fighters taking 3-4 slots in a raid full time?

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:34 PM   #8
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Bruener wrote:

The way I see it is the stance gives Fighters a little bit of flexibility for DPS which will have raids keeping in the 3rd and 4th Fighter full time instead of just bringing them in for encounters that require their extra tanking.

Yes it does. The problem being it's a level of flexibility no other class can touch except for maybe beastlords. That is a big deal.

Really it's a combination of factors, this stance being the most recent and a rather large one. Those 'middle ground' DPS classes have been getting marginalized for quite a while. No raid force 'needs' rogue debuffs right now. It can easily be overcome by DPS or more healers, like Koleq points out.

I see the major problem as doing this huge addition to classes only applying to fighters. If they were doing this in conjunction with some sort of changes for DPS classes, or better yet ALL classes, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. Personally I like the idea of every class being able to fill a DPS spot in some way. I loved it in DCUO. Thing is in DCUO you also had access to second critical role as well. There weren't pure DPS classes that could get messed with by a tank swapping stances out of combat.

Also people don't seem to be looking at this properly. Its not 'fighter in wreckless stance' vs 'DPS'. It's EVERYTHING one class can do vs. EVERYTHING another can do. Even if it's not at the same time. If simply being in another stance made it 'okay' then there should be no problem with making a wizard throw up some buff that ruins their DPS but lets them tank like a warrior. Or an assassin sacrifice DPS to put out bard level utility.

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Old 07-23-2012, 02:40 PM   #9
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

This is such a fundamental change to the games mechanic and class balancing, potentially benching 2 to 6 classes from ever being included again in raids.  It needs to work "as intended" from the get-go or it will be a bigger flop than the DF system ever was.

No joke. I've already talked to rogues who aren't too hot on this thing. I'm not exactly safe as a ranger either. I doubt they could out DPS me on any sort of regular basis but the fact they can also be a raid tank by switching stances, in-combat or not, makes what little utility I have look non-existent.

To simply address this "concern".  Rogues have debuffs no other classes have access to and is their desireability in raid.  The amount of raid DPS a Brig brings is massive.

Rangers will be fine in relation.  They get to do their DPS with very little down side, (cost of arrows).  Meaning they get to range and unlike Fighters in Recklessness they do not have the agro issues.

Potency affecting Taunts needs to be fixed because it doesn't make sense for the stance to generate even that much more Hate.  Fighters don't have detaunts or access to -hate gain unless they adorn for it.  In which case if they do it affects their ability to tank drastically.  With how the stance is now on test even if you take away the potency affecting Taunts it is going to be extremely hard to keep mobs off of a Recklessness Fighter.

You know as well as anyone else, maybe even more so, that Utility is easily overcome via DPS.  The End.  The End to the 2 to 6 classes that have moderate DPS with moderate utility.  The End to the need to carry high risk low reward rouges and predators.  The End for the concern of managing debuffs on mobs so the raid can do more DPS becasue the raid IS doing more DPS.

If SOE simply reverses the threat generation or reduces threat generation too much while in Reckless then there would be no Risk involved and that IS the whole point of the stance.

It funny you support the other low utility DPS and T2-DPS-Utility scouts, saying they will be fine, which IMO they will -not-, but then tell a story of Woe with the fighters not being able to adorn for (-) hate.  Nearly every raid tank I know loots 2 sets of gear, one for Tanking (Mitigation & Block) and another set for DPS (Flurry) and adorn each set differently.  They can always lootwhore up a 3rd set of gear and drop (-) Hate Gain on it.  Including Yellow and Red slots they can adorn for well past -50% which would stack with the Reckless (-) 30%.  I'd be suprised if fighters couldn't get to (-)100% self buffed hate reduction which is the cap.

Alright.  If we simply lay it out in simple terms.

Is the stance going to push raids to want to bring a 5th or even 6th Fighter.  No.

Yes. Why would anyone (raid) fill a role with a utility class that only offers unneeded utility (mob debuffs).  There is one thing that matter in 90% of the raids around and that is DPS not utility.  We are not debating any roles handling the Tanking or healing, we talking strickly about DPS and whether or not a class can fill that role and which classes can then which can fill it better.  DPS with high survivability is far better than DPS without survivability.  Add to that having DPS that can stanc-dance in a pinch AS NEEDED.  It's a farce.

Is the stance going to give the raid more DPS during trash and encounters that require only a couple Fighters if they keep in a 3rd and 4th fighter, compared to Live.  Yes.

The way I see it is the stance gives Fighters a little bit of flexibility for DPS which will have raids keeping in the 3rd and 4th Fighter full time instead of just bringing them in for encounters that require their extra tanking.

Are you really going to complain about Fighters taking 3-4 slots in a raid full time?

We will (most likely) see raids forming with 1 or 2 Brawlers PLUS 0 to 1 Guardians PLUS 0 to 6 Crusaders / Zerkers, becasue there is now -NO- reason not to use thier high survivability DPS when accompanied with thier ability to stance-dance.

So will the normal raids start using 5 to 8 healers, 3 to 6 Beastlords and 3 to 12 fighters with a few Bards and Chanters mixed in to make everything "OK"?  -MAYBE-

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Old 07-23-2012, 03:04 PM   #10
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[email protected]_old wrote:

We will (most likely) see raids forming with 1 or 2 Brawlers PLUS 0 to 1 Guardians PLUS 0 to 6 Crusaders / Zerkers, becasue there is now -NO- reason not to use thier high survivability DPS when accompanied with thier ability to stance-dance.

So will the normal raids start using 5 to 8 healers, 3 to 6 Beastlords and 3 to 12 fighters with a few Bards and Chanters mixed in to make everything "OK"?  -MAYBE-

Look, if the non Beast Lord DPS classes where having so much of a hard time, then all of the top end raiding guilds would be already running 3 fighters, 7-8 healers, the required 4 bards and chanters and all the rest would be BL's.  but there are still running a mage group and there are still other dps classes in the top end raiding guilds. 

If you think the class that YOU play needs to be revamped then start a thread in your class thread outlining the problem abilities that need changed and proposed changes for it.  Not getting an ability that gives a 3rd and 4th fighter something to do other than just twiddle their thumbs and get out dps's by the Inq's/Furies..... any good fighter should be out dpsing their healers anyway. 

Edit: Back on topic, the threat portions of abilities are still being affected my Recklessness not as intended.  also the half's threat abilities in not working to reduce Rescue or Peal or Peal 2 for monks.

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Old 07-23-2012, 03:30 PM   #11
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

We will (most likely) see raids forming with 1 or 2 Brawlers PLUS 0 to 1 Guardians PLUS 0 to 6 Crusaders / Zerkers, becasue there is now -NO- reason not to use thier high survivability DPS when accompanied with thier ability to stance-dance.

So will the normal raids start using 5 to 8 healers, 3 to 6 Beastlords and 3 to 12 fighters with a few Bards and Chanters mixed in to make everything "OK"?  -MAYBE-

Look, if the non Beast Lord DPS classes where having so much of a hard time, then all of the top end raiding guilds would be already running 3 fighters, 7-8 healers, the required 4 bards and chanters and all the rest would be BL's.  but there are still running a mage group and there are still other dps classes in the top end raiding guilds. 

If you think the class that YOU play needs to be revamped then start a thread in your class thread outlining the problem abilities that need changed and proposed changes for it.  Not getting an ability that gives a 3rd and 4th fighter something to do other than just twiddle their thumbs and get out dps's by the Inq's/Furies..... any good fighter should be out dpsing their healers anyway. 

Edit: Back on topic, the threat portions of abilities are still being affected my Recklessness not as intended.  also the half's threat abilities in not working to reduce Rescue or Peal or Peal 2 for monks.

First off this is the topic ... Fighters are asking for Max DPS with Min risk and that is what Reckless represents.  3rd and 4th fighters already retain the ability to out DPS all healers maybe except Inquisitors and half of the utility now while in thier O-stance.  All Reckless is bringing to the table is the fact that raids willc carry more fighters than the 3 or 4 they carry now, becasue SOE is removing the penalty of their low DPS when compared to T1 DPS as they currently compete with T2-Utility easily.

If a raid force could actually find more Beastlords that actually knew how to play their class they would easily take every raiding slot ment for scout DPS.  Not once in this thread have we mentioned mage DPS, although summoner DPS could come into play depending on how out of balance the reckless stance is launched.  We're talking specifically about removing every need to ever invite Rangers, Assassins, Brig or Swashy's which can all easily be replaced by either a Beastlord (for more DPS and more Utility) or Fighter in Reckless (for more DPS and more suvivability and more flexibility).

btw, I raid on a fighter, healer, mage DPS, mage Utility and scout DPS, so Reckless will have some effect on my game play to be sure.

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Old 07-23-2012, 03:36 PM   #12
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Beastlords need a lot of buffs and proper setups to top other t1s. You have to fill the raid with mystics and pallys if you're gonna fill all your dps slots with beastlords. Good luck finding more than 2 mystics for your raid these days. Even using two beastlords would realistically be a challenge to pull off effectively. I think recklessness is likely going to be not that big a deal and probably not worth it on more than trash. If sk's start out-parsing me on trash, cool, I'll auto-attack and make a sandwich. If a tank can actually come close to me on a named fight then I'll worry about it. The issue really isn't with adding recklessness. It's that rogues and rangers just aren't bringing as much value to a raid as they need to be. Boost either their utility or dps to bring the total package in line with all the other classes and we won't be talking about the chance of a 5th tank having more value in their spot. Btw, rangers do have significant aggro issues at the top right now and a good portion of our dps is not at range.

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Old 07-23-2012, 03:44 PM   #13
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i don't like this change for my tanks and i don't like this change because it clearly favors one type of tank way more than the others.    

 over all it's just badly implemented but i guess devs don't care.

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Old 07-23-2012, 03:56 PM   #14
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How does being in this stance make a fighter become a dps with "High survivability"? They take 50% MORE damage than usual, which puts them at about the same ability to take a hit as a normal dps.

There is no "stance-dancing" because in combat the stance puts you at very low health. This means if  you need to pick up the mob, your healers better know that you're dropping out of recklessness or else *you will die* and thus not be useful.

I can see how this would be a problem if fighters could easily drop out of this stance and pick up agro, but it isn't, with not only the low health problem, but with the problem of needing to swap out weapons to a sword and shield (I assume that plate fighters would be using a 2h wep in this stance, or 2 1h-ers) which takes time also. It's not a "Hey, im gonna drop out of recklessness and pick up this mob in .02 seconds because the tank died!" its more of an "OH CRAP, TANK DIED, I HOPE I DON'T DIE WHEN I DROP STANCE AAHH"

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Old 07-23-2012, 04:10 PM   #15
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death save-stonesking-sacrafice-soulward-thorns-  i mean the list goes on and on and that drop in hp is just not that big of a deal.

 this stance is not balanced for tanks and everyone will soon see that it's not balanced for raid either.

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Old 07-23-2012, 04:16 PM   #16
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Opeij wrote:

How does being in this stance make a fighter become a dps with "High survivability"? They take 50% MORE damage than usual, which puts them at about the same ability to take a hit as a normal dps.

There is no "stance-dancing" because in combat the stance puts you at very low health. This means if  you need to pick up the mob, your healers better know that you're dropping out of recklessness or else *you will die* and thus not be useful.

I can see how this would be a problem if fighters could easily drop out of this stance and pick up agro, but it isn't, with not only the low health problem, but with the problem of needing to swap out weapons to a sword and shield (I assume that plate fighters would be using a 2h wep in this stance, or 2 1h-ers) which takes time also. It's not a "Hey, im gonna drop out of recklessness and pick up this mob in .02 seconds because the tank died!" its more of an "OH CRAP, TANK DIED, I HOPE I DON'T DIE WHEN I DROP STANCE AAHH"

^^^ That is full of giggles ... Double damage for a class with super high mitigation, temp blockers, self heals death prevents and immunity bubbles is not a problem at all.  A Plate of Avoidance fighter will be easily able to withstand hits while in Reckless far longer than a cloth mage or a chain scout hands down.

Any raid healer can take a fighter from 5% heal to full in a matter of 1 or 2 seconds, they can also pre-cast heals when people have the ability to work together.  Dropping Reckless into full tank spec can be done in a matter of a half a second and while you can't toss on the shield while in combat tanking with a 2hd in defensive stance while the MT gets back into play is a much better solution than wiping.

Rangers and Assassin will only be out DPS'ing Reckless fighters in high geared raids.  The middle of the road raid guilds regulary have fighters out parsing Rangers and Assassins due to the gear acquistion and the current lack of competition in the fighter classes which 99.99% of the time gear up faster than any other class, except for Druids.  Now while equally geared Rangers and Assassin should easily out parse fighters w/o Reckless, there is no flexibility or additive utility being brought forth by those classes except for disarming trapped chests which can be done by the Bards that are still wanted.

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Old 07-23-2012, 04:42 PM   #17
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[email protected]_old wrote:

^^^ That is full of giggles ... Double damage for a class with super high mitigation, temp blockers, self heals death prevents and immunity bubbles is not a problem at all.  A Plate of Avoidance fighter will be easily able to withstand hits while in Reckless far longer than a cloth mage or a chain scout hands down.

Any raid healer can take a fighter from 5% heal to full in a matter of 1 or 2 seconds, they can also pre-cast heals when people have the ability to work together.  Dropping Reckless into full tank spec can be done in a matter of a half a second and while you can't toss on the shield while in combat tanking with a 2hd in defensive stance while the MT gets back into play is a much better solution than wiping.

Rangers and Assassin will only be out DPS'ing Reckless fighters in high geared raids.  The middle of the road raid guilds regulary have fighters out parsing Rangers and Assassins due to the gear acquistion and the current lack of competition in the fighter classes which 99.99% of the time gear up faster than any other class, except for Druids.  Now while equally geared Rangers and Assassin should easily out parse fighters w/o Reckless, there is no flexibility or additive utility being brought forth by those classes except for disarming trapped chests which can be done by the Bards that are still wanted.

I have actually Tested the new stance Recklessness and it will NEVER double the fighters dps.  At most it will give an increase of 20-40% at most based on the class and group setup.  this still will not place the fighters over the T1 dps classes like Rangers and Assassins that you are claiming.  the T1 dps are still going 2-3 times the dps me in raid at the moment.  I am out dpsing some of the lesser geared and maybe skilled dps, but the good dps in my guild are fare out dpsing me, and I don't see that changing with this stance. 

Second of all leaving Recklessness in a fight takes the fighter down to 5% health.  IF the fighter wants to use a death save to survive leaving Recklessness and not use it to... o Survive the Mob they need to pick up... then yes they can blow it for that.  In order for the Recklessness Tank to not just rip agro at every turn the tank will have to do more than just change out weapons/shield and this stance.  it will mean changing out about all of the gear they are using and readorning a new set of gear.  It will also involve an AA change to be effective as a DPS tank.  these are not changes that can be changes within the 5 Second minimum refresh on the stances when we leave Recklessness.  A Reckless tank even with a shield will tank damage much worse then a ranger would normally, since good rangers use a shield anyway.  In fact most scouts would take damage much better than a Reckless tank even if they don't use a shield.

So I am sorry I don't by your Doom and Gloom about this Stance. 

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Old 07-23-2012, 04:55 PM   #18
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60-70% of a fighters dps is getting 40% more potent, so scary. People seem to really be freaking out about this change. The people losing to fighters now, and worried they will look even worse, are just bad at dps or look pointed out before, theres a big difference, Maybe the only fight you'll see a staggering dps difference, is a recklessness sk grav sacing on hex, which is a wacky fight any ways. On a normal single target, well, reckless dosen't fix our  magical -40% hit rates, it dosen't fix that most of our base abilities still hit like wiffel bats, and now they will hit like frozen wiffel bats. On farm stuff and EM fights, yeah, prolly you'll have atleat one fighter in the raid who will do some solid recklessness numbers, but the rest of the time, he'll be tanking. Are some of us going to steal some buffs and see what can be acomplished for lulz, yeah.

But if you're worried that recklessness is going to take a 300k fighter and suddenlt make him beating down the door of the resident beast lord or wizard, no, look at the parses,  BL's get what 4-5 buttons that do a mil+ on singel target and aoe, we're not gonna get buttons like that, and we're not going to get mana burn magicly. Dev fist, harm touch are gonna be a good chunk of damage, but T1 dps classes have nothing to fear about. So take a breath, relaxe, and know its going to be that bad.

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Old 07-23-2012, 05:50 PM   #19
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Love all the responses jumping to rash conlussions.

The point of this topic was in reference to the Patch Note change:"The bonus potency from reckless stance will no longer apply to threat."

This is not the case, unless the threat that shows up in chat isn't actually producing that much threat. If that's the case then whatever. This whole mechanic is being setup so lazily it seems.

Also, go make your own topic about other nonsense.

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Old 07-25-2012, 12:55 AM   #20
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Tank hate is through the roof on live now and we are doing lyceam HM with the tanks reckless stance active. Yea he is more squishy but able to solo heal it just fine.
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:53 AM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

Tank hate is through the roof on live now and we are doing lyceam HM with the tanks reckless stance active. Yea he is more squishy but able to solo heal it just fine.

Not believing it unless the tank was geared far ahead of the zone.

Ran Recklessness last night doing Sullons HM and I died many times.  Despite -22% Hate Gain most of the time mobs were on me and when temps weren't running, or sometimes when temps were running, I took a ton of damage.

They still need to fix the additional potency affecting taunts on Live.  If they do that I believe the stance is balanced for exactly what they wanted to do.

EDIT: And yes, I am geared ahead of Sullons in mostly PoW gear.

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Old 07-25-2012, 05:34 PM   #22
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i tanked hard mode with my sk/guard who are geard like aids, in wreakless and i acutally died less than usual because i actualy paid attention.   

  some of the heavy hits did one shot my tanks were as before i could just ignore them at end up at 10% hp or something.  just means i have to time my saves, no big deal.   

  still want to see my guard and bruiser benefit from this stance as much as my sk.  please look into that

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Old 07-26-2012, 02:56 PM   #23
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Tank hate is through the roof on live now and we are doing lyceam HM with the tanks reckless stance active. Yea he is more squishy but able to solo heal it just fine.

Not believing it unless the tank was geared far ahead of the zone.

Ran Recklessness last night doing Sullons HM and I died many times.  Despite -22% Hate Gain most of the time mobs were on me and when temps weren't running, or sometimes when temps were running, I took a ton of damage.

They still need to fix the additional potency affecting taunts on Live.  If they do that I believe the stance is balanced for exactly what they wanted to do.

EDIT: And yes, I am geared ahead of Sullons in mostly PoW gear.

Patch notes said they made Reckless Potency not effect Taunts ... so there ya go ... followed closely by Crusaders posting 2mil parses and all Brig's and Swashy's rage quiting.  Win-Win

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Old 07-26-2012, 03:40 PM   #24
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Our SK was beating our warlock on some AE fights. Was pretty 'awesome' Even the SK thought the DPS output was ridiculous. Our bruiser was giving T1 DPS competition.

Anyone who thinks this stance won't have a negative impact on DPS classes is clueless. May not make it so guilds boot DPS classes outright but I doubt they will be recruiting more rogues any time soon. Zero to negative population growth. Other DPS classes to a lesser extent.

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Old 07-26-2012, 04:46 PM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:

Our SK was beating our warlock on some AE fights. Was pretty 'awesome' Even the SK thought the DPS output was ridiculous. Our bruiser was giving T1 DPS competition.

Anyone who thinks this stance won't have a negative impact on DPS classes is clueless. May not make it so guilds boot DPS classes outright but I doubt they will be recruiting more rogues any time soon. Zero to negative population growth. Other DPS classes to a lesser extent.

Right!?!  And people called me out for saying that weeks ago and now here we are ... witnessing the destruction of the entire Scout line minus the Beastlords.... Fighters not only out parsing T1 deeps, but tanking while in Reckless while doing it.  IDK who's more clueless the Dev's or the Reckless Fighter lovers thinking something, ANYTHING, about this is "OK" or "Good" for the game.

>> "Look at me, Im a 3rd OT fighter and now have something to do" turns into Raids kicking out anything that looks like T2 DPS outside of mana regen to keep up the pownage.  You might also start seeing Druids getting kicked to the curb (again) along with Rangers, Assassins, Brig, Swashy, Summoner x2... maybe even Templar (again) when people get some more phat leetz.

So, between the addition of the beastlord, which in retrospect was tame compared to Reckless, class eliminated the need to 4 classes; Reckless comes along and kicks out another 4.  So thats 8 classes totally destroyed in these two SOE and player sanctioned moves.

<<>> My Original point ... WHY?? bother carrying anything outside of Reckless fighters and AOE casters with WARD based healers and Inquisitors for curing... the end.  Anyone remember EQ1-Howling Stone AE runs w/ 1healer, 1enchanter and 4 AE Wizzys and you could drop the healer if you found a good chanter that could handle the AE stuns.

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Old 07-26-2012, 05:40 PM   #26
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[email protected]_old wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Our SK was beating our warlock on some AE fights. Was pretty 'awesome' Even the SK thought the DPS output was ridiculous. Our bruiser was giving T1 DPS competition.

Anyone who thinks this stance won't have a negative impact on DPS classes is clueless. May not make it so guilds boot DPS classes outright but I doubt they will be recruiting more rogues any time soon. Zero to negative population growth. Other DPS classes to a lesser extent.

Right!?!  And people called me out for saying that weeks ago and now here we are ... witnessing the destruction of the entire Scout line minus the Beastlords.... Fighters not only out parsing T1 deeps, but tanking while in Reckless while doing it.  IDK who's more clueless the Dev's or the Reckless Fighter lovers thinking something, ANYTHING, about this is "OK" or "Good" for the game.

>> "Look at me, Im a 3rd OT fighter and now have something to do" turns into Raids kicking out anything that looks like T2 DPS outside of mana regen to keep up the pownage.  You might also start seeing Druids getting kicked to the curb (again) along with Rangers, Assassins, Brig, Swashy, Summoner x2... maybe even Templar (again) when people get some more phat leetz.

So, between the addition of the beastlord, which in retrospect was tame compared to Reckless, class eliminated the need to 4 classes; Reckless comes along and kicks out another 4.  So thats 8 classes totally destroyed in these two SOE and player sanctioned moves.

<<>> My Original point ... WHY?? bother carrying anything outside of Reckless fighters and AOE casters with WARD based healers and Inquisitors for curing... the end.  Anyone remember EQ1-Howling Stone AE runs w/ 1healer, 1enchanter and 4 AE Wizzys and you could drop the healer if you found a good chanter that could handle the AE stuns.

 What are raids supposed to look like

6 fighters, 6 mages, 6 healers, 6 scouts?

Or your choice which seems to be 1-2-at most 3 fighters 6 healers and 15-17 scouts and mages explain exactly how that is balanced again because i dont see it.

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Old 07-26-2012, 05:55 PM   #27
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Our SK was beating our warlock on some AE fights. Was pretty 'awesome' Even the SK thought the DPS output was ridiculous. Our bruiser was giving T1 DPS competition.

Anyone who thinks this stance won't have a negative impact on DPS classes is clueless. May not make it so guilds boot DPS classes outright but I doubt they will be recruiting more rogues any time soon. Zero to negative population growth. Other DPS classes to a lesser extent.

Right!?!  And people called me out for saying that weeks ago and now here we are ... witnessing the destruction of the entire Scout line minus the Beastlords.... Fighters not only out parsing T1 deeps, but tanking while in Reckless while doing it.  IDK who's more clueless the Dev's or the Reckless Fighter lovers thinking something, ANYTHING, about this is "OK" or "Good" for the game.

>> "Look at me, Im a 3rd OT fighter and now have something to do" turns into Raids kicking out anything that looks like T2 DPS outside of mana regen to keep up the pownage.  You might also start seeing Druids getting kicked to the curb (again) along with Rangers, Assassins, Brig, Swashy, Summoner x2... maybe even Templar (again) when people get some more phat leetz.

So, between the addition of the beastlord, which in retrospect was tame compared to Reckless, class eliminated the need to 4 classes; Reckless comes along and kicks out another 4.  So thats 8 classes totally destroyed in these two SOE and player sanctioned moves.

<<>> My Original point ... WHY?? bother carrying anything outside of Reckless fighters and AOE casters with WARD based healers and Inquisitors for curing... the end.  Anyone remember EQ1-Howling Stone AE runs w/ 1healer, 1enchanter and 4 AE Wizzys and you could drop the healer if you found a good chanter that could handle the AE stuns.

 What are raids supposed to look like

6 fighters, 6 mages, 6 healers, 6 scouts?

Or your choice which seems to be 1-2-at most 3 fighters 6 healers and 15-17 scouts and mages explain exactly how that is balanced again because i dont see it.

This exactly.  Its like people are mad that raids might want to actually keep a 4th Fighter in the raid for trash.

TBH, until Fighters start pushing more than 6 spots in a raid people really don't have any room to complain.

Rogues should be balanced against other scouts if they aren't getting the spots they deserve.  I would aim towards those 4 Bard spots that every raid has to have.

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Old 07-26-2012, 06:37 PM   #28
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Our SK was beating our warlock on some AE fights. Was pretty 'awesome' Even the SK thought the DPS output was ridiculous. Our bruiser was giving T1 DPS competition.

Anyone who thinks this stance won't have a negative impact on DPS classes is clueless. May not make it so guilds boot DPS classes outright but I doubt they will be recruiting more rogues any time soon. Zero to negative population growth. Other DPS classes to a lesser extent.

Right!?!  And people called me out for saying that weeks ago and now here we are ... witnessing the destruction of the entire Scout line minus the Beastlords.... Fighters not only out parsing T1 deeps, but tanking while in Reckless while doing it.  IDK who's more clueless the Dev's or the Reckless Fighter lovers thinking something, ANYTHING, about this is "OK" or "Good" for the game.

>> "Look at me, Im a 3rd OT fighter and now have something to do" turns into Raids kicking out anything that looks like T2 DPS outside of mana regen to keep up the pownage.  You might also start seeing Druids getting kicked to the curb (again) along with Rangers, Assassins, Brig, Swashy, Summoner x2... maybe even Templar (again) when people get some more phat leetz.

So, between the addition of the beastlord, which in retrospect was tame compared to Reckless, class eliminated the need to 4 classes; Reckless comes along and kicks out another 4.  So thats 8 classes totally destroyed in these two SOE and player sanctioned moves.

<<>> My Original point ... WHY?? bother carrying anything outside of Reckless fighters and AOE casters with WARD based healers and Inquisitors for curing... the end.  Anyone remember EQ1-Howling Stone AE runs w/ 1healer, 1enchanter and 4 AE Wizzys and you could drop the healer if you found a good chanter that could handle the AE stuns.

 What are raids supposed to look like

6 fighters, 6 mages, 6 healers, 6 scouts?

Or your choice which seems to be 1-2-at most 3 fighters 6 healers and 15-17 scouts and mages explain exactly how that is balanced again because i dont see it.

This exactly.  Its like people are mad that raids might want to actually keep a 4th Fighter in the raid for trash.

TBH, until Fighters start pushing more than 6 spots in a raid people really don't have any room to complain.

Rogues should be balanced against other scouts if they aren't getting the spots they deserve.  I would aim towards those 4 Bard spots that every raid has to have.

Yes, that is correct 2-4 fighter, 6-8 healers, 4-8 utility and 6-12 DPS... that is how this game was designed.  Tank / Heal / Utility / DPS.  Other games are designed around Tank / Heal / DPS.  Other games have multi-role classes.  Other games have fighters that can Tank/DPS and Heal.  This one has never had all classes able to fill all roles, but now, NOW, there is a class, ONE CLASS, that has multiple roles which it can fill and not only can it fill multiple roles, Fighters can fill roles that other class simply -cannot- fill.

So now there are 6 classes that can heal, 4 better than 3 and 1 of those only marginally (Templar).

So now there are 6 classes that can tank, 3 better than the other 3 and 2 of them can do "ok"

So now there are 10 classes have have utility, 4 far more utility than the others, 2 that nobody acknowledges and 2 that nobody -cares- about.

So, now there are ~about 16 classes that can DPS, 6 to 8 of those classes cannot do -anything- else.

....

This has created a situation where a DPS fighter is -much- easier to use in an abundance for greater rewards with less risk while at the same time marginalizes 6 to 10 classes.  The only place where Reckless is balanced is in top tier raiding; meaning POW.  Everywhere below that Recklace fighter over shadows every other DPS class outside of Beastlords and Warlock.  Mid-tier raids were already seeing Brawlers and Cruasders sitting between T1 and T2 and Reckless simply pushes the fighters (again) in mid tier raids and heroics well over the top of nearly all T1 DPS while maintaining the ability to fill another role within the time it takes a 5 second coolddown to clear.

Nope, there is no balancing going on here.  This is just one more skewed form of WOW-ification to EQ2.

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Old 07-26-2012, 06:53 PM   #29
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Nope, there is no balancing going on here.  This is just one more skewed form of WOW-ification to EQ2.

All of that is arguably true, but this thread is not about the desirability or necessity of Recklessness, but rather that its potency is increasing threat on abilities. If we could all stick to that topic, & save the other arguments for some other thread, that would be ducky.

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Old 07-26-2012, 11:18 PM   #30
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i raid a dps class..  

 should i reroll an sk?  

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