Brawler Tenacity Change

[Novusod]

[email protected] wrote:

Let me just recap.

I'm trying to imagine what your goal is.. raid wipes?  We aren't wiping enough?  If you want other tanks to get raid invites.. make them able to tank.

The goal I was told by the devs was they are doing this to reduce the brawler population. Their internal metrics feel the game has too many brawlers and so they are culling the herd with this nerf.

After GU64 Brawlers will be worse than they were in TSO due to the fact that the game has changed. There is no room for a tank that cannot tank in modern raiding. Like you said adds that hit as hard as the named. There is also tank switches where the OT has to full time tank for a while. If a brawler cannot fill these roles than there is no use in bringing one. This is why I am retiring my Plane of War geared bruiser.

Can't really fight against the logic they decided to use. Only thing the brawler community can do is sow the seeds for rebuffing durring a future update.

[Beko]

I bet Shadowknights would love an AA that added an extra trigger to bloodletter and let them use it in combat.

[The_Cheeseman]

Novusod wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Let me just recap.

I'm trying to imagine what your goal is.. raid wipes?  We aren't wiping enough?  If you want other tanks to get raid invites.. make them able to tank.

The goal I was told by the devs was they are doing this to reduce the brawler population. Their internal metrics feel the game has too many brawlers and so they are culling the herd with this nerf.

After GU64 Brawlers will be worse than they were in TSO due to the fact that the game has changed. There is no room for a tank that cannot tank in modern raiding. Like you said adds that hit as hard as the named. There is also tank switches where the OT has to full time tank for a while. If a brawler cannot fill these roles than there is no use in bringing one. This is why I am retiring my Plane of War geared bruiser.

Can't really fight against the logic they decided to use. Only thing the brawler community can do is sow the seeds for rebuffing durring a future update.

I have to disagree that brawlers, or at least monks, will be as bad as we were in TSO. That was pretty darn bad. Like, "We're totally incapable of doing our job in all but the most trivial of encounters" bad. Even with these changes, we won't be down that far.

Let me analyze the current changes, from a monk perspective:

-1,600 physical mitigation due to loss of character traits. This cost my monk 5.3% damage reduction. Guess what? I made all that back with the 5% physical DR they added to my defensive stance. Oh, and in case you didn't know about it, our new Prestige ability, "Sturdy Provoker" allows me to maintain Mountain Stance pretty much full-time in combat, so that's an extra 3,000-ish mitigation anyways. So I'm usually going to have as high mitigation as a plate tank while I am actually tanking.

-30sec. duration, and -50% heal amount on Tenacity. Tenacity used to be 3 full-heals on death for 90sec. I loved it, but I have to admit, that was kinda broken. It had a purpose back when monks were getting one-shot killed constantly due to insufficient mitigation and broken avoidance mechanics, but these days it's a tad overkill. As much as it hurts to lose that power, Tenacity is still an amazing ability, though the Heroic Tree enhancement AA may no longer be particularly valuable for non-raiding monks.

-50% heal amount on Mend. Meh, I very rarely use Mend anyway (most commonly for the Nox cure, actually), and a 50%-60% heal is generally just as useful as a 90%-100% heal, in practice. Unless you commonly allow yourself to get down to 10% HP before you choose to heal yourself.

-Loss of Strikethrough immunity in defensive stance. This is far less important than it used to be back in SF, when the devs would put absurd amounts of Strikethrough on raid MOBs. I still maintain that Strikethrough is a horrible concept that only exists because EQ2's avoidance mechanics make no freaking sense, but I guess it is here to stay. However, there is far less Strikethrough on modern raid targets, and brawlers in general are more durable than we were back when Strikethrough immunity was added (and at the time, much needed). Now, this is from the perspective of a non-raider, so I am working from secondhand reports and research, but I personally don't think that loss of Strikethrough immunity is that big a deal, by itself. In any case, it doesn't affect me at all.

As you can see, from my perspective, the overall effect of each individual change seems fairly minor. However, what I worry about is the cumulative effects of these changes, how they will interact with one another and what unforeseen effects those interactions may generate. I just don't think that making so many large changes simultaneously is a good idea, because if something does turn out broken, it will be difficult to isolate the cause. That is what worries me--that there will be some issue that nobody has noticed yet.

I would like to point out that one of the main issues as far as balancing brawlers with plate tanks is that increases in overall encounter damage tends to favor avoidance tanking. As the damage dealt by auto-attacks goes up, unless physical mitigation values also go up (which they're really not, due to the diminishing returns curve) avoidance becomes more valuable as a survivability tool. This becomes even more disproportionate as we get into the extreme territory where the chance of being one-shot killed becomes relevant. Brawlers used to have to deal with that on a regular basis, since we once were a lot less durable than plate tanks, so when we got unlucky and our avoidance failed to block a streak of hits, we'd get randomly killed. This is why were were totally incompetent tanks for a while: nobody wants a tank that just randomly get's one-shotted under normal circumstances. To counter this, brawlers were given abilities like Brawler's Tenacity and Unrivaled Focus in order to help mitigate the effects of spike damage. However, now that MOBs hit hard enough to even one-shot plate tanks, these abilities seem overpowered, since the brawler's primary flaw is now shared by all tanks.

In short, brawlers have overtaken plate tanks mostly because we have tools to overcome a problem that we've had all along, but just recently became an issue for plate tanks. Once again, more evidence that EQ2 stops working correctly when the numbers get too high.

[Rasttan]

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Novusod wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Let me just recap.

I'm trying to imagine what your goal is.. raid wipes?  We aren't wiping enough?  If you want other tanks to get raid invites.. make them able to tank.

The goal I was told by the devs was they are doing this to reduce the brawler population. Their internal metrics feel the game has too many brawlers and so they are culling the herd with this nerf.

After GU64 Brawlers will be worse than they were in TSO due to the fact that the game has changed. There is no room for a tank that cannot tank in modern raiding. Like you said adds that hit as hard as the named. There is also tank switches where the OT has to full time tank for a while. If a brawler cannot fill these roles than there is no use in bringing one. This is why I am retiring my Plane of War geared bruiser.

Can't really fight against the logic they decided to use. Only thing the brawler community can do is sow the seeds for rebuffing durring a future update.

I have to disagree that brawlers, or at least monks, will be as bad as we were in TSO. That was pretty darn bad. Like, "We're totally incapable of doing our job in all but the most trivial of encounters" bad. Even with these changes, we won't be down that far.

Let me analyze the current changes, from a monk perspective:

-1,600 physical mitigation due to loss of character traits. This cost my monk 5.3% damage reduction. Guess what? I made all that back with the 5% physical DR they added to my defensive stance. Oh, and in case you didn't know about it, our new Prestige ability, "Sturdy Provoker" allows me to maintain Mountain Stance pretty much full-time in combat, so that's an extra 3,000-ish mitigation anyways. So I'm usually going to have as high mitigation as a plate tank while I am actually tanking.

-30sec. duration, and -50% heal amount on Tenacity. Tenacity used to be 3 full-heals on death for 90sec. I loved it, but I have to admit, that was kinda broken. It had a purpose back when monks were getting one-shot killed constantly due to insufficient mitigation and broken avoidance mechanics, but these days it's a tad overkill. As much as it hurts to lose that power, Tenacity is still an amazing ability, though the Heroic Tree enhancement AA may no longer be particularly valuable for non-raiding monks.

-50% heal amount on Mend. Meh, I very rarely use Mend anyway (most commonly for the Nox cure, actually), and a 50%-60% heal is generally just as useful as a 90%-100% heal, in practice. Unless you commonly allow yourself to get down to 10% HP before you choose to heal yourself.

-Loss of Strikethrough immunity in defensive stance. This is far less important than it used to be back in SF, when the devs would put absurd amounts of Strikethrough on raid MOBs. I still maintain that Strikethrough is a horrible concept that only exists because EQ2's avoidance mechanics make no freaking sense, but I guess it is here to stay. However, there is far less Strikethrough on modern raid targets, and brawlers in general are more durable than we were back when Strikethrough immunity was added (and at the time, much needed). Now, this is from the perspective of a non-raider, so I am working from secondhand reports and research, but I personally don't think that loss of Strikethrough immunity is that big a deal, by itself. In any case, it doesn't affect me at all.

As you can see, from my perspective, the overall effect of each individual change seems fairly minor. However, what I worry about is the cumulative effects of these changes, how they will interact with one another and what unforeseen effects those interactions may generate. I just don't think that making so many large changes simultaneously is a good idea, because if something does turn out broken, it will be difficult to isolate the cause. That is what worries me--that there will be some issue that nobody has noticed yet.

I would like to point out that one of the main issues as far as balancing brawlers with plate tanks is that increases in overall encounter damage tends to favor avoidance tanking. As the damage dealt by auto-attacks goes up, unless physical mitigation values also go up (which they're really not, due to the diminishing returns curve) avoidance becomes more valuable as a survivability tool. This becomes even more disproportionate as we get into the extreme territory where the chance of being one-shot killed becomes relevant. Brawlers used to have to deal with that on a regular basis, since we once were a lot less durable than plate tanks, so when we got unlucky and our avoidance failed to block a streak of hits, we'd get randomly killed. This is why were were totally incompetent tanks for a while: nobody wants a tank that just randomly get's one-shotted under normal circumstances. To counter this, brawlers were given abilities like Brawler's Tenacity and Unrivaled Focus in order to help mitigate the effects of spike damage. However, now that MOBs hit hard enough to even one-shot plate tanks, these abilities seem overpowered, since the brawler's primary flaw is now shared by all tanks.

In short, brawlers have overtaken plate tanks mostly because we have tools to overcome a problem that we've had all along, but just recently became an issue for plate tanks. Once again, more evidence that EQ2 stops working correctly when the numbers get too high.

The other changes are enough of a so called equalizer its enough punishment from Sony for screwing up there mechanics and balancing content around a horrible tool like strikethrough. Content that really wasnt balanced to begin with as for months ( Like 8-9-10 months) no one could kill it and they drove countless guilds and players out of this game.

And people I dont care what other tanks deathsaves are, froggin go make a post about your class and try get your deathsave changed, Im ok with no strikethrough, loss of mitt, the fact I will have to rework my AA tree, the fact spike damage will once again be a threat to my tanking but all that stuff in itself is enough. I think we will need the DP and 15 sec just isnt enough of a mod to the ability.

[Flin]

Well ya all messed up the Brawler class again , So heres my fix Without you adjusting the changes you made thus far

Simple. Add a potion to the SC Store, (1500SC)  Potion of rebirth. Effect - allows user to reclass within is arch type while remaining at the level they were 

So a Fighter can be reborn as another figher class, Scout into scout etc.

mind you this will probably mean a 95% DROP in how many Brawlers their are on the servers. 

[Caethre]

Novusod wrote:

The goal I was told by the devs was they are doing this to reduce the brawler population. Their internal metrics feel the game has too many brawlers and so they are culling the herd with this nerf.

After GU64 Brawlers will be worse than they were in TSO due to the fact that the game has changed. There is no room for a tank that cannot tank in modern raiding. Like you said adds that hit as hard as the named. There is also tank switches where the OT has to full time tank for a while. If a brawler cannot fill these roles than there is no use in bringing one. This is why I am retiring my Plane of War geared bruiser.

Can't really fight against the logic they decided to use. Only thing the brawler community can do is sow the seeds for rebuffing durring a future update.

(bold emphasis is mine)

((

Where did the devs say this?

))

[Novusod]

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Novusod wrote:

The goal I was told by the devs was they are doing this to reduce the brawler population. Their internal metrics feel the game has too many brawlers and so they are culling the herd with this nerf.

After GU64 Brawlers will be worse than they were in TSO due to the fact that the game has changed. There is no room for a tank that cannot tank in modern raiding. Like you said adds that hit as hard as the named. There is also tank switches where the OT has to full time tank for a while. If a brawler cannot fill these roles than there is no use in bringing one. This is why I am retiring my Plane of War geared bruiser.

Can't really fight against the logic they decided to use. Only thing the brawler community can do is sow the seeds for rebuffing durring a future update.

(bold emphasis is mine)

((

Where did the devs say this?

))

It was said in a conversation I had with the Devs on the test server. According to what I was told is Brawlers were 'out of control' and guilds were using multiple brawlers which was not what they wanted.

[Tigerr]

So, if community decides to use 4 mystics + 4 inquis per raid instead of others, they get to nerf those too?... Cause we all know how our "other siders" complain that they get no raid time, even though it is completely up to the community to decide. Cant believe they are trying to change something based on what the community picks. So if everyone decided they wanted 10 necros per raid, You'd nerf those too?... Really SoE?

[Landiin]

Tigerr wrote:

So, if community decides to use 4 mystics + 4 inquis per raid instead of others, they get to nerf those too?... Cause we all know how our "other siders" complain that they get no raid time, even though it is completely up to the community to decide. Cant believe they are trying to change something based on what the community picks. So if everyone decided they wanted 10 necros per raid, You'd nerf those too?... Really SoE?

The community picks the best class for the job and uses it (will in most cases). It isn't like the community says oh, Lets bring the templar instead of the inquisitor...

[Beko]

People use Templars over Inquisitors... when?

[Tigerr]

Really?.. There are fights around that require a templar over an inquisitor. Problem is, its the people behind the computer that make the class what it is. I've seen mystics that are complete garbage and have no place in the MT group or in the raid period, the raidleader would probably want an "okay" defiler over a craptastic mystic. Some abilities like the cure on the Templar I understand but, everything else is pretty close to each other. An amazing mystic can mimic a "good" defiler , therefore letting the Raidleader use 4 mystics instead of defilers. People seem to think that just because a class is CAPABLE of doing the job of their counterpart means that the other class is just broken. I really don't like people who make this assumption... Devs cannot balance classes based on how good or how bad people play them. I've seen the most horribad monks that I promised I'd never group with... It really depends on the player. Sony needs to stop trying to overcorrect.

[The_Cheeseman]

Funny, nobody complained about Guardians being the unquestioned #1 raid tank for the first 4 or 5 years of the game. I guess it only becomes a problem when it's brawlers who are on top, for once.

[Novusod]

Historically brawlers did complain about guardians and the long running plate tank Monopoly that existed for years before SF. To be fair guards were nerfed, so were SKs, as well as Zerkers to break up that plate tank monopoly. The thing that doesn't make a whole lot of sense is GU64 will bring back the plate tank monopoly.

[Daalilama]

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

People use Templars over Inquisitors... when?

Yes people use temps still but it kinda depends on the person behind the class...still doesnt mean temps dont deserve a class review but thats not what this threads bout.

[Bruener]

Novusod wrote:

Historically brawlers did complain about guardians and the long running plate tank Monopoly that existed for years before SF. To be fair guards were nerfed, so were SKs, as well as Zerkers to break up that plate tank monopoly. The thing that doesn't make a whole lot of sense is GU64 will bring back the plate tank monopoly.

No, it will bring ALL tanks closer to balance instead of this gross Brawler monopoly that has been going on since DoV.  There will be almost no change at the heroic level with Fighters since the areas changed are primarily for the raiding level.  At the raiding level Brawlers own every other tank so they had to be brought back.  Brawlers still have superior avoidance, equal mitigation, and more temps to keep them ahead of the pack.

Stop pretending like the sky is falling.

[Faildozer]

Obano.. maybe its better if you quit playing your brawler if you think this will kill the class and force everybody to quit then you really arent that great of a player because Monks will still be the best choice with maybe guardians right there with them and bruisers still better than other tanks after those 2.

Fel, if you think that any of the content is difficult and you cant tank it on a brawler then the problem is with you.. not the content. True story, on heroic stuff, unless your healers are dead or you are one of those brawlers who pops BT and tells people not to heal them until they die 3 times you are NEVER going to need that last trigger and even if you do you will die shortly after that trigger goes off anyway so it doesnt matter.. You say it is silly to balance the game around the 1% but it is even more ludicrous to not balance the top end of the game even when the changes wont really have much of an affect on the 99%ers.

Should they have pushed all these changes thru at once? maybe not, it certainly would have been an easier pill to swallow if they did it over several patches but people are going to complain and overreact no matter what they do. This is simply bringing brawlers down to the level of the other tanks. Like EVERYBODY HAS SAID you guys will still have the best death prevent, best avoid, best dps, best buffs and snaps.. The only difference is you will spike a little more and have to actually call for a healer DP every once in a while.. like all the other tanks... This is balance people, this is not a class getting nerfed into an unplayable state. All the good brawlers will still have their raid spots and the bad ones might be weeded out in favor of a better skilled other player.

[Caethre]

[email protected] wrote:

Fel, if you think that any of the content is difficult and you cant tank it on a brawler then the problem is with you.. not the content. True story, on heroic stuff, unless your healers are dead or you are one of those brawlers who pops BT and tells people not to heal them until they die 3 times you are NEVER going to need that last trigger and even if you do you will die shortly after that trigger goes off anyway so it doesnt matter.. You say it is silly to balance the game around the 1% but it is even more ludicrous to not balance the top end of the game even when the changes wont really have much of an affect on the 99%ers.

This is simply bringing brawlers down to the level of the other tanks. ..... This is balance people, ....

((

"Faildozer", one just has to love people who completely invent statements and attribute them to another person, when that other person has not said nor implied those statements in any way. But you have gone the extra step, in making up and attributing statements to me that I didn't say, and then attacking me on the basis of said things I never said in the first place! It is the archetypal strawman argument.

Where on this, or any, thread, have I been talking about things "I can and can't tank"? I not have referred to things I can or cannot tank on any thread at all. Nor am I referring to that here either. Basically, you made that up completely. So I will just ignore the statement.

The other statements you have made are all under the general heading that your opinion is that "brawlers are overpowered".

Your opinion is simply WRONG and based on zero facts and total class jealousy.

Brawlers are not overpowered at all in heroic content, in open raids and in casual raids. That is the 99% of the playerbase, and that is what balance is meant to be for.

Four or five class-jealous plate tank players saying over and over that "brawlers are overpowered" doesn't actually make it true.

Brawler Tenacity does not need to be nerfed.

You coming here, calling for a nerf to another class out of petty class jealousy reasons, is of no value. This is a thread made by brawler players who actually play the class to make feedback on intended changes for their class, not for petty class jealous players of other classes to make things up.

I will repeat my own experiences as I stated before. I find that currently the SHADOWKNIGHT class is already the STRONGEST tank class for heroic content, in open raids and in casual raids.

All these proposed changes are going to do, is make the SHADOWKNIGHT class even more (relatively) overpowered.

I was in a group only this weekend in heroic zone "Dracur Prime", playing one of my mages as it happens, where we had a brawler tank. We failed to kill one of the nameds in there. As soon as the brawler left, the remaining group members (from lower raiding guilds) were all saying that they never liked brawler tanks, because this often happens with them! It just AGAIN shows the attitude amongst the playerbase now, even before these nerfs, if we ignore the HM raiders and the few jealous plate tanks like yourself.

These changes are not "balance", they are creating imbalance.

Before long, the forums will be filled with people complaining about overpowered Shadowknights if these changes go through as planned. You read it here first. The difference is, that won't be just the 1% of the playerbase in HM raiding and a few class-jealousy whiners. It will be the normal players, of many classes.

))

[Yimway]

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

These changes are not "balance", they are creating imbalance.

Log onto test and provide real values that demonstrate this imbalance.

[Lizabethan]

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

These changes are not "balance", they are creating imbalance.

Log onto test and provide real values that demonstrate this imbalance.

Thank you, Atan, I always find something good of yours to quote.

Gaiz, there's still like two weeks of testing and tweaking to be done.

[Bruener]

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

These changes are not "balance", they are creating imbalance.

Log onto test and provide real values that demonstrate this imbalance.

I am chuckling that there is somebody out there that actually believes SKs are OP'd and Brawlers are balanced.

[kalaria]

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

These changes are not "balance", they are creating imbalance.

Log onto test and provide real values that demonstrate this imbalance.

I am chuckling that there is somebody out there that actually believes SKs are OP'd and Brawlers are balanced.

I agree entirely.  If that is their belief of the strength of tanks currently.... then they really aren't in touch with things at all, sorry to say.

[Faildozer]

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Fel, if you think that any of the content is difficult and you cant tank it on a brawler then the problem is with you.. not the content. True story, on heroic stuff, unless your healers are dead or you are one of those brawlers who pops BT and tells people not to heal them until they die 3 times you are NEVER going to need that last trigger and even if you do you will die shortly after that trigger goes off anyway so it doesnt matter.. You say it is silly to balance the game around the 1% but it is even more ludicrous to not balance the top end of the game even when the changes wont really have much of an affect on the 99%ers.

This is simply bringing brawlers down to the level of the other tanks. ..... This is balance people, ....

((

The other statements you have made are all under the general heading that your opinion is that "brawlers are overpowered".

Your opinion is simply WRONG and based on zero facts and total class jealousy.

Fel.. The fact that every credible person in this thread and game for that matter feels the same way.. Brawlers have more saves on better timers, better avoidance, same mitigation, while doing more dps with better cooldowns is not an opinion it is a fact. You saying Brawlers arent OP in heroic content i can agree with and guess what? THESE CHANGES DONT NERF THEM IN HEROIC CONTENT. These changes break the monopoly that brawlers have in end game raiding while not breaking brawlers in the content that you care about and you are complaining why? Even after these changes they will still be 2 of the best tanks (a lot better than SKs btw.)

Brawlers are not overpowered at all in heroic content, in open raids and in casual raids. That is the 99% of the playerbase, and that is what balance is meant to be for.

Four or five class-jealous plate tank players saying over and over that "brawlers are overpowered" doesn't actually make it true.

No but four or five people with a much better grasp on game mechanics and how to tank posting in this thread alone does... The way you spec and gear and adorn.. you clearly dont have a good grasp on tanking mechanics.

Brawler Tenacity does not need to be nerfed.

You coming here, calling for a nerf to another class out of petty class jealousy reasons, is of no value. This is a thread made by brawler players who actually play the class to make feedback on intended changes for their class, not for petty class jealous players of other classes to make things up.

Im not petty or jealous, I am actually saying these changes will bring them in line with the other top tanks (which is fine) and if anything im saying other classes like shadowknights, pallies and zerkers need to be brought up closer to the top of the pack (monk, bruiser, guardian.)

I will repeat my own experiences as I stated before. I find that currently the SHADOWKNIGHT class is already the STRONGEST tank class for heroic content, in open raids and in casual raids.

All these proposed changes are going to do, is make the SHADOWKNIGHT class even more (relatively) overpowered.

Overpowered for powerleveling aaaand nothing else since every tank can tank anything in heroic content a shadowknight can.

I was in a group only this weekend in heroic zone "Dracur Prime", playing one of my mages as it happens, where we had a brawler tank. We failed to kill one of the nameds in there. As soon as the brawler left, the remaining group members (from lower raiding guilds) were all saying that they never liked brawler tanks, because this often happens with them! It just AGAIN shows the attitude amongst the playerbase now, even before these nerfs, if we ignore the HM raiders and the few jealous plate tanks like yourself.

Just because somebody plays abrawler doesnt mean they are a good player... Id rather have a good Zerker or pally tank than a bad brawler or guard.

These changes are not "balance", they are creating imbalance.

Lol.. They are making it so guilds arent running 2 brawlers then a sk or pally for all their content. Clearly creating imbalances.. Good brawlers will still have their spots, bad players will need to step their game up or get replaced by a more skilled and hungry tank.

Before long, the forums will be filled with people complaining about overpowered Shadowknights if these changes go through as planned. You read it here first. The difference is, that won't be just the 1% of the playerbase in HM raiding and a few class-jealousy whiners. It will be the normal players, of many classes.

Nobody will ever complain about how overpowered SKs are except for their dps in reckless stance... You really are out of touch with how majority of the playerbase feels about this game and just because you (the 1%) feel shadowknights are awesome doesnt mean they are the end all beat all class because 99% of the game feels that is monks and they are acting in accordance and after all isnt it only fair to balance the game around the 99% and not the 1%? 

))

BTW i find it funny that you think that nerfing strikethru and their deathsave will break brawlers when in reality.. It brings them (up??) to the level that shadowknights are on... interesting right? So congratulations on the buffs to your class!

[Rageincarnate]

Find a random heroic geared brawler and look at his stats.  Then you will understand, how your about to make him squishier then a dirge rofl.

I just loveeee the class balancers only use stats of geared brawlers lol.

[Rageincarnate]

BTW i find it funny that you think that nerfing strikethru and their deathsave will break brawlers when in reality.. It brings them (up??) to the level that shadowknights are on... interesting right? So congratulations on the buffs to your class!

errm shadowknights are far from op.  I don't know what you guys are smoking.  The deathsave IS too much.

The rest of the nerfs are ok.

[Faildozer]

why is nerfing the deathsave too much? It is still the best fighter deathsave even tho bloodletter is arguably better it cant be recast in combat. All that will change is brawlers may have to call for a healer deathsave every few rounds like other tanks.

[Rageincarnate]

[email protected] wrote:

why is nerfing the deathsave too much? It is still the best fighter deathsave even tho bloodletter is arguably better it cant be recast in combat. All that will change is brawlers may have to call for a healer deathsave every few rounds like other tanks.

Because, now we actually need it  We honestly didnt before.  I used it for things like i didn't get cured which truthfully i should have died.

When i mt, i used my blocks   like they were designed for.

Tbh, i have a confession.  I feel dp's should be used for 2 things and 2 things total.  To respond to a oh crap situation or a scripted event. 

To have them running all the time because your randomly going to get rocked for a 40k flurry for 5 hits is special in the head. (in my opinion anyways)

Think about it.  Your making us squishy on purpose, so now were going to get rocked.  The duration is what will catch the 60k autos or ma's.

And why don't guards, sk's and zerks and pallies have non special ed death saves?  I included bloodletter cause it's dumb to kill your group and only have 2 triggers non recastable when tenacity has no negative effects.

Yes, i said it.. tenacity has no negative effects.  Yet all the others do.  (guard and zerker can die without aa, pally gets stifled, sk kills his group,)I'm a brawler too .. gasp.  How bout making them all not suck there sony.

I have no faith left.  So nerf away.  Then cry when content is "unkillable"

[KNINE]

everyone will have their favorite tanks.. I personally hate healing SK's shrug.  I have soloed healed all tanks through UD and they all do fine... the one and usually only thing I look for when getting a tank for  a PUG (rarely do pugs anymore) is.. do they have more HP than me lol.. if not then I tell them sorry /shrug

[The_Cheeseman]

Darn it all, I can't believe I am agreeing with Bruener. But yeah, having actually copied over to Test and checked-out the brawler changes on my monk, I am rather paralyzed with indifference. And I am definitely not "geared" heck, I haven't really played more than a handful of sessions since GU63 (but that is another matter entirely). Overall, unless something really unexpected happens, I just don't see these changes having much of an effect on brawler viability. I'd still have preferred that they do the rebalancing in a more controlled manner, but that's SOE for ya.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go consult my therapist regarding how agreeing with Bruener makes me feel.

[Rageincarnate]

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Darn it all, I can't believe I am agreeing with Bruener. But yeah, having actually copied over to Test and checked-out the brawler changes on my monk, I am rather paralyzed with indifference. And I am definitely not "geared" heck, I haven't really played more than a handful of sessions since GU63 (but that is another matter entirely). Overall, unless something really unexpected happens, I just don't see these changes having much of an effect on brawler viability. I'd still have preferred that they do the rebalancing in a more controlled manner, but that's SOE for ya.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go consult my therapist regarding how agreeing with Bruener makes me feel.

neat, what did you test?

[Caethre]

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Fel, if you think that any of the content is difficult and you cant tank it on a brawler then the problem is with you.. not the content. True story, on heroic stuff, unless your healers are dead or you are one of those brawlers who pops BT and tells people not to heal them until they die 3 times you are NEVER going to need that last trigger and even if you do you will die shortly after that trigger goes off anyway so it doesnt matter.. You say it is silly to balance the game around the 1% but it is even more ludicrous to not balance the top end of the game even when the changes wont really have much of an affect on the 99%ers.

This is simply bringing brawlers down to the level of the other tanks. ..... This is balance people, ....

((

The other statements you have made are all under the general heading that your opinion is that "brawlers are overpowered".

Your opinion is simply WRONG and based on zero facts and total class jealousy.

Fel.. The fact that every credible person in this thread and game for that matter feels the same way.. Brawlers have more saves on better timers, better avoidance, same mitigation, while doing more dps with better cooldowns is not an opinion it is a fact. You saying Brawlers arent OP in heroic content i can agree with and guess what? THESE CHANGES DONT NERF THEM IN HEROIC CONTENT. These changes break the monopoly that brawlers have in end game raiding while not breaking brawlers in the content that you care about and you are complaining why? Even after these changes they will still be 2 of the best tanks (a lot better than SKs btw.)

Really? Here is me thinking the credible ones are those saying the Brawler Tenacity change is over-the-top and not required, and it is only the HM raiders and a few petty-class-jealous plate tank players saying that brawlers just need to be nerfed repeatedly.

Thing is, half the things you just said are false, and demonstrate a basic lack of knowledge. Amongst non-HM raiding players, Brawlers have nothing like the mitigation of plate tanks, only someone who didn't actually know how the game works would say that. The statement about DPS is false too, for the same section of the playerbase. And the the Tenacity change IS a nerf in heroic content, yet another incorrect statement. Basically, almost everything you said there was wrong, apart from brawlers having higher avoidance, which is of course correct.

Brawlers are not overpowered at all in heroic content, in open raids and in casual raids. That is the 99% of the playerbase, and that is what balance is meant to be for.

Four or five class-jealous plate tank players saying over and over that "brawlers are overpowered" doesn't actually make it true.

No but four or five people with a much better grasp on game mechanics and how to tank posting in this thread alone does... The way you spec and gear and adorn.. you clearly dont have a good grasp on tanking mechanics.

You claiming better knowledge is not the same as you actually having it. And your opinion of my gear/adorns etc is just that, your opinion, which you are entitled to, but it doesn't actually make you correct. Whilst I make no arrogant claims about myself (unlike you), I am quite content with my own capability, thank you for the concern however. That is all just an attempt at personal insults, however, and nothing to do with the thread.

Brawler Tenacity does not need to be nerfed.

You coming here, calling for a nerf to another class out of petty class jealousy reasons, is of no value. This is a thread made by brawler players who actually play the class to make feedback on intended changes for their class, not for petty class jealous players of other classes to make things up.

Im not petty or jealous, I am actually saying these changes will bring them in line with the other top tanks (which is fine) and if anything im saying other classes like shadowknights, pallies and zerkers need to be brought up closer to the top of the pack (monk, bruiser, guardian.)

Yes, I know that is what you are saying. What I am saying, is that for casual players, with casual gear levels, the brawler classes are NOT overpowered compared to equivalent plate tanks. My entire game in this community of players, I would know what I am talking about for the section of the playerbase I am referring to. You would not.

I will repeat my own experiences as I stated before. I find that currently the SHADOWKNIGHT class is already the STRONGEST tank class for heroic content, in open raids and in casual raids.

All these proposed changes are going to do, is make the SHADOWKNIGHT class even more (relatively) overpowered.

Overpowered for powerleveling aaaand nothing else since every tank can tank anything in heroic content a shadowknight can.

Again, you are looking at it only as an overpowered (overgeared, as in, raidgeared) character, grouped with other raidgeared characters, doing heroic content. I am looking it as a much weaker geared character, usually grouping with characters considerably poorer geared than myself, and usually in non-ideal groups with non-experienced players. This is REAL WORLD for most players. Again, I know this world. You do not, clearly, from your remarks.

I was in a group only this weekend in heroic zone "Dracur Prime", playing one of my mages as it happens, where we had a brawler tank. We failed to kill one of the nameds in there. As soon as the brawler left, the remaining group members (from lower raiding guilds) were all saying that they never liked brawler tanks, because this often happens with them! It just AGAIN shows the attitude amongst the playerbase now, even before these nerfs, if we ignore the HM raiders and the few jealous plate tanks like yourself.

Just because somebody plays abrawler doesnt mean they are a good player... Id rather have a good Zerker or pally tank than a bad brawler or guard.

So would I. But that is not what I said. What I said was, these are examples (from many many examples) of players who simply consider brawlers in general to be a poor choice compared to plate tanks for heroic groups RIGHT NOW ... even before these further nerfs!

These changes are not "balance", they are creating imbalance.

Lol.. They are making it so guilds arent running 2 brawlers then a sk or pally for all their content. Clearly creating imbalances.. Good brawlers will still have their spots, bad players will need to step their game up or get replaced by a more skilled and hungry tank.

Who cares what raiding guilds are using? Are you reading my posts at all? I am not referring to what raiding guilds are using. Casual guilds are NOT doing this. Casual guilds, alliances and pick up raids generally run plate tanks. This is my experience. Do you even know???

Before long, the forums will be filled with people complaining about overpowered Shadowknights if these changes go through as planned. You read it here first. The difference is, that won't be just the 1% of the playerbase in HM raiding and a few class-jealousy whiners. It will be the normal players, of many classes.

Nobody will ever complain about how overpowered SKs are except for their dps in reckless stance...

Wait and see.

 You really are out of touch with how majority of the playerbase feels about this game and just because you (the 1%) feel shadowknights are awesome doesnt mean they are the end all beat all class because 99% of the game feels that is monks and they are acting in accordance and after all isnt it only fair to balance the game around the 99% and not the 1%? 

The one out of touch, sir, is you.

))

BTW i find it funny that you think that nerfing strikethru and their deathsave will break brawlers when in reality.. It brings them (up??) to the level that shadowknights are on... interesting right? So congratulations on the buffs to your class!

Are you even reading the thread? You realize this thrad is about Brawler Tenacity yes? Not about the strikethrough change? No-one here is complaining about the strikethrough immunity change at all.

The hint is in the thread title!