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Old 11-14-2006, 06:03 PM   #1
Ep

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any MT zerkers thinking about betrayal guards for eof/ combat lu update? I've always been an advocate of Zerker MT, there's nothing a zerker can't tank a guard can and i've tanked and beaten for my guild raid progression up to tarinx(we don't have another equiped tank w/ 6.5mit). However w/ eof, guard aa's are looking... very guard like i mean i see the best aa's to get rescue/reinforce/tos reduc timers and block/double attack. (double attack/block are debatable and block needs testing, but still those 3 reduc timers are insane) Whereas i can't justify any aa's for a tanking zerker. Along w/ the fact that +skills would seem to make a new difference in this new combat revamp (i.e. c/s/p defense) all the stats a guard buffs, along w/ def , and sta. My situation is unique, my guild has unreliable guards, you know those... while i've been mt and there 99% of the time. It's time to take one for the team. Plus along w/ that i'm a freeport zerker... if i betray i get to choose to be either good/evil(and of course who wouldn't choose good for mith marr? *boggle) so i get to become a qynosian guard who can worship mith marr. The advantages to betray are just too great, if your a guild zerker mt. This along w/ the fact that for our entire we guild we have only 2 reliable warriors, both zerkers, it barely makes sense that we have 2 full time zerkers, zero guards, and the other zerker is a guild leader, you know how much attendance guild leaders rack up , heh.if your a tanking zerker, who's in freeport and your guild has no reliable guards at all... are you thinking about betraying? i have and barring any super wierd aa changes in the next few hours i'll betray. Oh and i've been preparing too, i'm only missing 5masters for my new guard, true enough my zerker was master'd out, and i'm in dt (non relic) gear so i'm gtg from the start really.i'm keeping my aa's as is str/sta 5points in int.ppl have said avoid/buckler line has gone bad w/ eof, i want to see how bad it is.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:32 PM   #2
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is it possible to go from zerker to guard? i thought that was only rumor.
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:16 PM   #3
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It is poss. just as it is poss to go from Troub to Dirge.
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:22 PM   #4
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I am. Guards get faster rescue, faster tower of stone, faster reinforced, longer root, yes it works on epics, they even get 10% more to double atacks.What else they get hm.. faster stone sphere, or something like that dont remember the name. They get more mit on the temporary while zerkers get just a longer duration.They get a 10 sec avoid all melee with a recast 1 min, they get 15 sec avoid AE for up to 6 fighters , again i belive is once every minute. What im trying to point out is , tank wise, they get everything ...while zerkers get NO tanking AA...basicaly, now if i wanna be a great tank i am forced to betray.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:04 PM   #5
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I thought about switching when I betrayed but two things stoped me. One I was only 25 and didn't want to lvl as a guard(only 34 now). Two I want to give it a few months and see how the changes effect everything before I do something drastic. But be sure to post the results please! Want to know if the grass is greener.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:19 AM   #6
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I think the Preserverance and Debilitations lines (as they currently stand) both have some pretty nice options to help tanking Zerkers, so I will not betray.  For one thing, we get to upgrade both of our death prevention abilities while Guards will still be stuck with the original one.  I also think that adding duration to our temporary mit buffs is just as good if not better than just adding some extra mit on them.  And while we don't get to decrease the reuse timer of Rescue we do get the ability to add some hate (and damage) to our hit-taunt, which I think is even better.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:33 AM   #7
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I havent been completely in the dark about the upcoming changes, but I did want to see some surprise with this stuff..  I talked to my buddy before becoming a "tank" he rolled a Guard (RIP Manches) for a very long time until the 70 cap, and did some raiding.  He got sick of it he said..  He felt he was always group dependant..  He suggested to me, roll a Zerker.  I have I am 70, have some great gear, and had a lot of fun tanking.  Never had any issues with it to speak of.  Now..  Sitting here reading about these changes and how I am nearly always in a group (hardly ever solo anymore, really weird coming from a player who used to only solo or duo) makes me think..  Should I betray and become a guard?  These changes for tanking sound very impressive..  I mean honestly, I like to be able to dps and "open wounds" and use the fun stuff, but these AAs look mighty impressive. 
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:58 AM   #8
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I've been thinking about it for a little while myself...pretty much the same reasons as the OP.  I am mostly in a group now, rarely soloing, and I am MT for every raid I sign up for.  We have a few berserkers, and a couple guardians, but none of them have played enough to get geared up.  The tank just below me, in terms of mitigation, is an alt who would rather play their main.  I am really the only experienced raid MT we have, so I'm thinking it may be better for the guild.  It's tough though...I'm pretty much fully mastered and still have to weigh things like groups of mobs (aggro control ie insolent gibe and many AE attacks) and the occasional soloing VS better defense and slightly better survivability for the raid (assuming we pull 1 group at a time).  Currently our MT group is with a dirge for hate, but I think with the guard we may need coercer too, which we don't have.
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:48 AM   #9
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You guys can take this or leave it but I have leveled up a zerker to lvl 60 and then leveled up a guardian to lvl 70.  In my time as both I've discovered that the difference between guardian's and zerker's are small but signifiant.  Basicly if you are the MT for your guild and want to have the best survivability as a raid tank (important here I said raid tank not regular tank) then guardian is the route for you.  If you want to be the best overall tank (some raid tanking and some single group tanking/soloing) then stay as a berserker. If you do switch over to a guardian trust me when I say you will notice some big differences between the two.  For one, your aggro generation will be about 1/3 of what you are accustomed to now.  You will find yourself fighting for aggro unless you have classes in your group/raid with aggro xfer abilities that put them on you.  My guild usually runs myself as MT (guardian) and a zerker as OT.  While I put 2-3 classes in my group to maintain aggro accross the raid the Berserker only needs 1, if that.  With a dirge in his group (even if the dirge dosn't hate buff him) he still pulls aggro from me sometimes.  That's with me having a assasin and a dirge in my group.  I've swapped out the assasin for a coecer and the same result of him pulling hate sometimes still occurs.  You guys also have 2 anti-death abilities now while guardians get none (I'm sorry but extending the duration of UW does nothing for us guardians cause in the end we still die).  Zerker's aggro generation for single and group encounters surpasses guardian's no matter what.  With EoF from what I was told you guys can get your incombat health regen up over 100pts a tick, which helps the healers out a bit with keeping you healed. Having said that, as a guardian you have more tool's at your disposal to smooth out inc dmg.  Our ToS line is the main reason guardian's make better raid tanks than any other class, when the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hit's the fan we can at will give our healer's a few extra seconds to get those heals on us to keep the raid from wiping.  We have with EoF a few more abilities to our name now as well, block for example (soon as they fix it.  It is currently broken in that it goes away the first time your hit, regardless of how much time is left on it) and also reductions to our timers for our reinforcement line and the ToS line.  Our mitigation on our 30 sec group defense buff can be increased as well.  Our 10 sec renewable taunt+dmg attack also has a AA that can give it a max of a 15% increase to the dmg and taunt of it. In the end it's basicly up to your style of play, what you are looking to accomplish for yourself and your guild.  You want the most defensive tank you can get then go guard, if you want a good mix of defensive with superior aggro generation stay berserker.  This is solely for the raid tanks out there though.  If you mostly 1 group then berserker hands down every time.
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Old 11-15-2006, 01:03 PM   #10
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that may be so but guards got some help in this new expansion. While in a raid We has like a bunch of wizzies some conjurers healers a swash brig and all that as well as 1 zerk and 2 guards. No joke the 1 guard who went full out of these epics was parsing in the top 4 with the swash, wiz and conjurer. I asked him how he was beating the hell out of the mob that bad and he said it was the buckler aa line along with some other changes. I chose a zerk for tankage and dmg knowing that the gard was the better tank but trading for the dmg. But now that the guard had both im definatly trading my zerk for the guard. Its just amazing how much help they got out of the expansion.
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:52 PM   #11
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I'm a raiding 70 zerker with decent gear. I'm thought about changing to a guard but my guild doesn't need it. They need a zerker. A zerker is not meant to be the main tank on a lot of raids. If you want to be the main tank, betray and good luck. The market for guilds needing tanks is very thin. Zerkers have a luxery of being dps and tankage. That means when a guild has a main tank, they will seriously consider bringing any other form of dps over a guard. A zerker on the other hand, even if not high end dps, does pretty well. For example, my high-end raiding necro could usually pull 1400 dps. I have been very surprised to find my zerker topping the charts of many groups and usually coming in around 800-1k dps. That's pretty respectable. If your raiding, you will get a spot over a guard any day if neither one of you is needed for main tank.

As an alternate tank, zerkers again excel. Who better to off-tank adds than an AE specialist (lots of raid ads arent grped after all). Last night I was in a grp with a serious raid-geared monk going all out. I lost agro a few times but never for more than a few seconds. If I can hold agro on him, who has no agro transfer as I recall, then I should be fine against all but the stupidest wizard.

Zerkers have a place. If you don't want to be in that place and want to be in the lime-light of main tank on every raid, betray. Me? I'm happy. I like doing damage. And unfortunately, when grouping I'm usually the main tank.

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Old 11-16-2006, 03:10 AM   #12
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The only reason you do that much dps is ..guess why....yeap, the buckler line..and guess again..guard get the buckler line too.But wait....theres more..in this expansion, guard get an Aa that gives them ..omg, 10% more double atacks.But you are right, i will betray couse i want to be a MT, not a back up tank or a MA or an emergency tank.Thats why i said ill betray. With this expansion, zerkers are no longer on par with guardians when it comes to main tanking.Zerkers will still do hm, somewhat decent when will come to dps. But i rather be a good tank now than a crapy tank and a crapy dps.
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