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Old 11-14-2015, 07:05 PM   #31
Karsa

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Besides some new or a revamped hate mechanic I will gladly take 'broken' focused casting temp, since plus 50% base to crit bonus and extra the extra pot. is weak-sauce for some Warlocks..cough cough... and trade you the beastlord 'truespirit ferocity' plus 20% base to pot, and my class is lacking a power drain so maybe we can steal the lock's 'dark siphoning' as well then we might able complete against those enchanters. Why not shoot for the moon give us a 'shadow' too, then you can call us alpha dogs. Stop crying about this class I know you enjoyed helping to nerf revamped version of ET for summoners but now when they revamped FC you want throw rocks at the beastlords.

Out heal druids...Out power chanters....you must be high...
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:13 PM   #32
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Illusionists in particular are doing well over 30mil dps in my guild; they often outparse t2 and oftern t1 dps classes.
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:30 PM   #33
Monstuhr

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@Koko: 2 fights that we have done. Both are instant deaths if your power drops to below 10-25% (consequently affecting who can rezz you) which isn't a big deal except the DOT portions on the fight are progressively worse as the fight goes. Substantial ticks of power. Now its one thing on say Klandicar where you ignore it for a bit, but we are talking about sustaining power through constant and substantial power loss for 10minutes or more. Your power root trick - saves one tick. 6 seconds later you are hurting again. Your power potion trick on autoconsome would be consuming what 300 potions per fight (10 minutes x60s /2s recast). I mean if we wanted to do each of these fights once and never go back I could handle losing that many potions.

We were down a chanter every night we did the fights so we only had 3. We had to use our troubs/defilers/warlock/spirit taps and our BL go spiritual stance at times to assist in power regen. Even then it was touch and go at times. This is only doing up through the T2 mobs. I can't imagine what some of the T3 mobs may be like as it relates to power drain.

There are a number of ways that various classes have to regen power but I guess my point is that power restore finally seems to be meaningful again.
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:53 PM   #34
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You say that, Mogrim, but really you're just butt hurt that you're not the center of attention, pissed that you got beat by a bl and want them nerfed. You're trying to not seem bias be it's very obvious that you are, you respond in a heartbeat whenever someone brings up anything related to bl's.
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:53 PM   #35
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A good start, but power items remain way more potent than power restoring abilities.

Our preferred approach for these encounters is to decrease the duration of the encounter (i.e. more damage, less deaths) rather than attempt to mitigate stacking DoTs through increased pool restoration. What is a 10 minute encounter could be done in 5, etc. #neverdropunyieldingonKlandicar
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Old 11-14-2015, 09:49 PM   #36
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Ask any beastlord how much damage spiritual stance is relative to feral, the answer will be "about half". Repeat across the board removing excess (e.g. non-shaman priest, chanters, etc.), remove the deaths, adjust burst DPS for shortened duration, and you're at about double damage.

On topic, power isn't a thing and it hasn't been a thing for a long time. If spiritual stance is going to be a "thing", power isn't the way to make it that way - at least for my playgroup.
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Old 11-14-2015, 10:03 PM   #37
Monstuhr

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Sounds easy. Mob is sitting there in Stygian x4. Its an open raid zone. Go prove me wrong. Prove to me that you can do it with your power items ...

I agree power hasn't been a thing since like Venril Sathir lol. From what I have seen they have made power gain relevant again. Like I said though, its sitting there prove your theory...
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Old 11-14-2015, 10:17 PM   #38
Estarion

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Actually it's more close to 1/3 now if non linked encounter. And Idk why there are any speculations about Spiritual stance. It's a solo/duo thing.
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Old 11-14-2015, 10:21 PM   #39
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I'd do it in an instant if that meant I'd get to do a x4 with my squad again, you wouldn't even need to ask. Closest I can do for you is doing a zone with EV+sprint on.

@Estarion I can believe that, stat inflation/decrease in AA significance.
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Old 11-15-2015, 03:55 AM   #40
Nkito

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Time to dust off those bl alts and see for yourselves.
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Old 11-15-2015, 06:08 AM   #41
Azhurial

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I'm pretty sure if Mogrim ever got on your level, Darkon would just replace him.
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Old 11-15-2015, 08:59 AM   #42
Monstuhr

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Wait wait wait. You summarily dismiss the need for power restore and say that items (without saying what items can deal with a constant 6second power drain) and say that power items are better? You then go on to say that a raid mob's time will be cut in half? I would be interested to see what level of dps you have? What raid zones did you finish last expansion? We finished everything except Brell. Our DPS is already pretty decent (not fatality/revelations level but still decent). I would love to see you double our dps to reduce the encounter duration by half...For someone that typically has pretty decent logic/analysis backed up by numbers I am shocked at how dismissive you are of the power drain. Maybe you should go pull the iron golems in Stygian x4 and come back and prove your point that you can get by with power items.
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Old 11-15-2015, 01:54 PM   #43
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Mogrim has admitted to using a skill order based off of "skill efficiency" or a "greedy algorithm". The optimal solution for EQII is something different entirely, and is likely a deviation of a weighted scheduling algorithm due to refreshing tasks (skills). If you don't know what I'm talking about, you're not on my level.

You're cute though, I like you.
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Old 11-15-2015, 04:31 PM   #44
Azhurial

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I do understand what you are saying, however your attempt to sound intelligent is rather adorable. I'm sure you're right though and us top guilds are all doing it all wrong. I must have just missed your guild's name the last time I looked at the progress site.
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Old 11-15-2015, 04:53 PM   #45
Karsa

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Is there cookie or medal for being in a top elite guild? Or do the devs hand out special presents like plat, op etherals and mounts or just suspensions....Wink
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Old 11-15-2015, 05:00 PM   #46
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Then explain it to the class, I'll wait. Bonus points if you provide a working algorithm.
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Old 11-15-2015, 06:17 PM   #47
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Sorry, I play games to give my brain a break from real life, but from what I have looked at of your pro information, you tend to leave out a lot of variables. An example would be how you have come to the conclusion that druids are bad and can't do anything alone.

No, and I don't mean to sound like an elitist. I was simply pointing out that someone in a guild who struggles to clear pools probably shouldn't try so hard to sway opinions about how the end game functions, because said person has never even seen it.
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Old 11-15-2015, 06:33 PM   #48
Koko

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"Oh shit he called me out and I can't deliver"
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Old 11-15-2015, 07:25 PM   #49
Azhurial

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Sure, go ahead and deflect. What you think about me isn't relevant here. The fact of the matter is, you are really bad at this game, which would be fine, except you project yourself and being very good. So you write a lot of material which isn't very accurate and then when someone who actually wants to better themselves reads it, they are held back from his or her goal of becoming better.

Whatever though, use your free time how you wish. I would also extend the same invitation Mogrim did, we are recruiting plenty of classes after all, and you seem to think you know more about all of them than anyone else here.
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Old 11-15-2015, 07:32 PM   #50
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Last I checked, I called you out and I'm still waiting for you to deliver.

As for "high end" raiding, I've been there and done that. I stopped alongside half of Equilibrium when we learned how stupid itemization was going to be when Deathtoll was released. There is nothing "special" or "gloat worthy" regarding a top 5 guild. There are only so many players who don't fail scripts and a top 5 guild has approximately 20 of them.
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Old 11-15-2015, 07:58 PM   #51
Arco

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I feel sorry for you.

Please don't remind me of that nightmare...

A lot of pointless arguments on this thread imo...
I don't see them making any major changes to BL before the expac launches. If I was a dev, I wouldn't make any changes to BL dps based on a bunch of people just blindly saying "their dps is overkill" on the forums with out getting any detailed parses or seeing the difference in gear/buffs/etc.

I think the biggest cause of sin / BL pulling so far ahead is generally from the 600+ potency they're gaining from just 1 buff.
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:15 AM   #52
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Having your class replaced by a consumable item is never a good place to be. In the end, it doesn't matter how rare, expensive, difficult to obtain, etc. that item is - simply by existing it makes characters which provide that service less desirable. In general, players will use consumables to further their character.

We already have public examples of this behavior: poisons. Yes there are complaints about rarity, costs, difficulty to obtain, etc. - but the majority of raiding scouts use poisons. I'm confident that the majority of players would use poisons if they were able. It is free damage for a consumable item. Replacing utility with items is no different. It is still free damage for a consumable item.

Will everyone replace players with items? No, but not every scout uses poisons either. We don't say very nice things about those players, e.g. they don't belong in high end content, they don't understand their character, and the class should not be balanced around those players. That is the basis of my opinion regarding power management "utility" - it is easily replaceable and is not an argument for balance.
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Old 11-16-2015, 05:15 AM   #53
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Laughable you say Feral bl's crush the rest of the raid force, where's the Assassin of Fatality or do you not run one? Assassins still have a way higher dps potential than BL's seeing as FFU hits for stupid amounts. 1v1'd my Assassin friend in an x2 and if I spiked to 120m+ he'd be right above me at atleast 150m+. We still lack a shadow compared to all other dps class. We still do not have passive poison damage which makes up barely anything but a mil here and there adds up. We still lack something useful like a transfer, but why create an assassin reincarnate even more? BL right side is literally the exact same as Assassin left side that it's not even funny, theirs just does less damage and has less duration. We literally have the same base potency buff with just different increment amounts.

I can't argue that Spiritual bl's still offer decent utility for certain stats being healing received, damage reduction, potency, and crit bonus which are all good ones.

Spiritual bl's can only outheal a druid because they have wards and these wards can be spammed to a crazy extent, they are not strong they are just easily spammable. Sorry about healing order?

Spiritual bl's can only out regen 2 coercers for a minute then wait for a 2m 30s cooldown for Primal Assault and this is only with their own group. For each primal cast while that ability up is a full mana bar. We have a first slot advantage to feed power which estimate gives about 7% per usage and with the new advantage change for two advantage in a row it is about 14%. We can not burst regen like a coercer can except when primal assault is on or if Unchained Ferocity is used to feed power using the first slot advantage which adds up to about 70%-90% because of possible crits. Outregening two coercers is impossible... they can do two groups at once for 40% each x12, and they can choose any group beside their group. Outregening them for your own group sure, our power regen is way steadier than a coercer burst of regen from mana flow. Adding in our advantages still do take mana to cast, without mana ourselves we can't regen for our group and in a constant mana drain fight we'd still lose on mana sustain with our lower regen depending on how much the mana drain is and coercers only sacrifice hp to mana flow. No mana = no bl mana feed

Best single target dps? Assassin

Best aoe target dps? BL/Sin based on luck of number generating and duration of fight. (BL's have one good 8 target aoe primal, everything else is use for temps or doesn't even hit for worth anything) (Assassin's have stealth bomb which can double cast for stupid numbers, they also have an aoe that doesn't do much but I am told most Sin DoT's can double cast which would make Stealth Assault double cast, and they have Massacre also, to add in their nerfed poisons but yay for passive numbers on aoe fights) (Sins still win on longer aoe fights but BL's win the burst)

Best encounter target dps? BL/Sin again based on luck of number generating and duration of fight.

BL's have strong sustain damage this expansion. A big buffed chain can happen within 20s of the start of a fight and a second mini buffed chain at around the 1m 20s mark of a fight then a regular chain at the 2m mark then a big buffed chain at the 2m 40s mark atleast that's how mine is setup. Yet again an assassin can do just about the SAME EXACT THING. You must not understand how much a BL is similar to an Assassin. Our temps have almost the exact same timing ,but they still have extras we do not, like a shadows and nerfed poisons(yay extra passive damage). I'm gonna comment again, no Fatality Assassin lol? I'm also assuming Othion is the BL you based this seeing as I do not know any other BL's that can parse beyond even 50m except one (cause DT charm) beside Othion and I know you would raid with Othion. Was he wearing Scoundrels Slip which can apparently do easily 15% of a BL's parse along side primals? Cause broken damage proc.
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Old 11-16-2015, 08:11 AM   #54
azcn2503

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Well this descended in to meaningless nonsense at record speed... Maybe instead of being so condescending we should be providing some constructive feedback.
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:56 PM   #55
Estarion

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Totally agree. This expack a beastlord comes a bit closer due to poison fix, and doubled advantages, but not even tied with assassin still. And still Assassin has not any threat control issues and has a more powerfull HP debuff. And hasn't any needs of savagery/feral rampage/pet position control btw.
It's lame. BL should be way ahead than sin to compensate the lack of utility of feral stance or finally get some relevant utility. And all speculations about spiritual stance is nonsense because you can't be in spiritual and feral stances at the same time to provide both utility and dps and spiritual beastlord dps is literally at bards level while all spiritual stance utility is not even close to just one dirge's buff. It's such obvious thing.
Btw if devs plan was just to swap poison mad amount in scout's parse with an item procs mad amount then again sin will be only scout who would take a significant advantage here. Frontload. It's a 24/114.
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Old 11-16-2015, 04:05 PM   #56
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Primal Assault lasts for about a minute so you can get 2 primal chains with it, but it is not the only regen ability we have, there are at least 2 primals that regen power and are recastable every 30 sec. So, yea we can out regen coercers, I've done it on plenty of occasions.
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:55 PM   #57
Reevar

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Lets start with the little things ...

Chillbarrier is still broken and Salivary Excretion is still available in in Spiritual stance
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:23 PM   #58
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@romadon in wich world are you living to get 2 primal chains into pirmal assault ? btw wont be mana efficient anyway
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:04 PM   #59
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Duration increasing class utility and maybe if the ethereal resets the primal abilities you could get more.
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:20 PM   #60
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I would like to know also, unless you have Phelony then 2 primal chains for one Primal Assault does NOT apply to all BL's. Each primal has a recast of 30s, if they were all cast literally at the start of Primal Assault at the 0s mark of the cast then yeah you'd get to add another chain at the 1m mark when it ends... But explain how you could possibly do that.

To add in yeah we have about 3 Spiritual Primals to feed power. But here's the biggest issue with leaving a BL to literally do all the power feeding. No power = no advantages... no advantages = no savagery... no savagery = no primals?
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