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Old 11-01-2015, 01:37 AM   #31
Holyduke

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This is what I am also worried about. For those that have said just be a better tank, I am not worried about were tanks are currently. With 2, some times 3 hate transfers everything is fine. If the others who have commented are saying "I do need any hate transfers or hate gain at all in raids/groups and I can hold hate". Please teach me. When my plant, and reinforce and slow coming back snaps are down, that is it. I am not so proud that I cannot learn more.

We have scouts pulling in 30,000,000 DPS or over currently in raids. If they are getting a 30% increase they will be doing about 40,000,000. As a guardian when tanking heavy hitting mobs my DPS is 5,000,000-7,000,000, the 15% is going to net me 8,050,000 in the upper end. With 100% hate I will be at 16,100,000. Scouts will have to run hate reduction of 50% which will put them at 20,000,000. (These are round numbers. These are average numbers.) This is in a perfect raid where everyone is maxing out hate gain and hate reduction. Yes add hate transfer to the tank to kick us up more. Sad to say we do not always have enough hate transfers for the tanks in the raid.

It would be nice if the tanks were not so reliant upon hate transfers all the time. Its not fun. I am not asking for DPS to put us into T-1 range. Never said that. I am just asking to keep up with the changes that are going to happen. If scouts are getting 30%, then give us 30% so we can stay on the same playing field.
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Old 11-01-2015, 02:29 AM   #32
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Threat procs, which are not displayed under outgoing damage, may alleviate a few of your concerns. Positional detaunts have a similar effect, in that scout threat tends to be lower than outgoing damage. Transfers are still the go-to, but I don't consider it unreasonable to have one in raid.

All else failing: you express your arguments clearly, shoot me a PM and I'll help you in any way I can.
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Old 11-01-2015, 10:41 AM   #33
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Actually he is detailing a common issue, he is describing a perfect setup where everyone has the perfect gain/reduction but due to the disparity between tank and scout/mage dps we are completly reliant upon others using threat reducers as well as transfers.

At first glance you'll see "numbers match up, move along" but this is where the issue lies the numbers are not consistent.

In previous expansions the tank is required to do more dps to "iron out those problems" do perhaps HALF the dps of the top parser.

Except 5mdps vs 40mdps is an EIGHTH rather than HALF. Lets faxtor in taunt crits etc and perhaps we deal with doing 25% of the top parser (which effectively means doubling our dps), but tank dps is just too low, laughably so and taunts snaps and transfers become less that bonus to tip us over the edge and more a crutch which if it fails, fails spectaculy.

This is pretty much down to gear itemisation. Whilst scouts can choose dps stats tanks are FORCED to choose defensive stats which pretty much limit any reforging and significantly curtail dps ibcreases.

+mitigation% +health% and +block% should be either "free" stats on the gear or given at a discount in addition to all the dps boosts.

As mentioned previously no other class has to equip gear loaded with minimum amount of +bandage% +sneak%, +fingerwaggle% just to make their skills work effectivly.

Its a tax which has made tanking a lot less fun than it used to be.

OVER TAUNTING IS NOT FUN.
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Old 11-01-2015, 04:21 PM   #34
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I don't agree with you; my group compositions tend to suck, monk/mystic/conji/ranger/necro/dirge; my gear tends to suck, go heroics; and general consensus is that brawler damage sucks, which it does.
[IMG]
I agree with qualification: these stats shouldn't be on gear. They have caused all sorts of problems for everyone; not just fighters.
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:37 AM   #35
Vainamoinen

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I'm not sure that a heroic zone parse proves much of anything here. With your chakram and ma'ael (so your gear doesn't really suck, especially for an alt) you have some significantly parse inflating procs to benefit from. Your DPS aside, we don't see what the others parses look like or how many deaths (if any) that there were.

Anyway, there has almost always been a lot of fear around fighters holding aggro, but it's never come up as a huge problem. Yes, my pally will have problems when there are 2 or 3 big DPS'ers in a group. Or if my amends target dies and I have to blow my snaps in one fell swoop. Otherwise, it isn't a huge issue. I have to keep my eye on the hate meter and stick to a rotation, but my DPS doesn't seem to be a make-or-break part of the equation.
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Old 11-02-2015, 01:47 AM   #36
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Not really an atypical run, every run is similar. Some are better, some are worse, but we essentially PUG everything and take the first few that PM us. Heroic is heroic, raid is raid. Raid settings tend to have better gear, better players, better compositions, and better buffs (from more players) than heroics. Groupwide as per request.
[IMG]
Snaps are great for getting to the top of the list, but fairly terrible for staying there. As for amends target dying:
[IMG]
because it is difficult to see any other way. ='(
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Old 11-02-2015, 04:15 AM   #37
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Most heroic parses are going to end up pretty skewed though. Especially if you've got gear as OP as the Chakram and a healer that's going to outparse a dirge and necro Wink

Which is why I would only use them if/when my amends target dies.

It happens. Not every amends target is the best player in the game or knows how to use amends to their DPS advantage, etc, etc...
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Old 11-02-2015, 04:59 AM   #38
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Monk here. Leach was only 2.2M of my 31M all outgoing. In fact, take away both my ethereals and my all outgoing will go to...26M at the very worst. Chakram looks impressive on the DPS parse, but it's not significant from an overall threat scenario. Threat is fine without eths, especially when detaunts and transfers are factored in.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:24 AM   #39
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Just looking at that particular parse means you have a massive spread of gear. the monk and mystic are much better geared than the others; Plus this zone is all AoE so this skews things even more.

Raid parses are not just used for raiders but sustained single target DPS against a single target; My pally has spiked to 12k DPS in the initial stages of a fight - and if the group had more DPS he would have parsed well; as it was the mobs died off asymmetrically and the parse dipped to the low 3ks.

On the other shoe my dirge has at times only time to engage the group pop a couple of temps and then the fight is over.

You really need a raid mob to view sustained group damage; spike dps is all that heroic groups are these days. (unload into a group of mobs, loot chest)

That's been the issue forever and personal DPS/hate from the tank is the only way to "even out" those agro issues; I mean sure you can increase taunt value on all tanks by a factor of 5; but that doesn't actually help a fighter's DPS which *is* important.

The scary thing is I didn't know how low my DPS was until I started gearing out and leveling up my dirge alt (note not even a T1 class and at best adequate in groups) - I had to learn all the advanced solo scripts - I didn't even KNOW there was a way to simply burn many of these mobs down without the script.
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:49 PM   #40
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Heroic ethereal run trio w/ raid geared assassin + heroic geared monk/warden. No fighter ethereals, no mystic, no troub dehate/hate dump, no additional transfer, no plinks, etc. tl;dr worst case raid scenario, 'but we still have an assassin 'cause OP. Add 500-700 latency on fighter/priest because apparently using Razer Comms + Streaming is bad for funzies.
Holding target during a burst >> any other time. Unless you're a guardian, bruiser, other fighter with force target effects, or have a coercer friend that can hit c-shout for you.

If you want, I can leave the monk AFK auto'ing a dummy and I'd expect more than 5m EncThreat/PS. Less for a paladin, granted, however amends//higher ability damage. No idea why your dirge alt out damaged your fighter main, unless you only AFK auto attack on both characters.
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Old 11-02-2015, 01:22 PM   #41
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Spike dps in groups is everyone hitting their blue spells and their AE auto trigger a couple of times and the mobs die - it has no real meaning. Remember full sustained damage means when all debuffs are in Dots are ticking to their full extent and some classes who debuff or buff first can start to open up the taps. A raid, group burst during such a period after sustained DPS is a completely different experience. (remember, taunt values do not increase through debuffs so spike DPS and snaps are far more important)

Both have similar gear - and my pally on pure autoattack maybe 400k DPS? (no threat procs) - in fact I'm curious I'll check that when I'm at home but that sounds about right (only one damage proc and that is from a master crafted wrist)
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Old 11-02-2015, 05:06 PM   #42
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The point is that with that kind of DPS in that kind of group, I think hate is the least of the tanks worry (even for a monk). As an aside, the chakram proc is a lifetap so you do get a heal element to hate generation. Although relatively small, it helps.

I'm not really arguing that hate is a big issue at all times in the game for all tank classes. I'm saying that in certain circumstances some tanks can be put into a bad spot when it comes to maintaining their position. Part of it is the (minimal) challenge of being a tank and part of it is that some classes can be significantly handcuffed.

Worst case raid scenario indeed. Which is why you won't see it happen in 99.975% of the time. For a monk to sustain aggro in a group like that for fights easily twice as long would be fairly difficult. Not impossible, but many monks would be hard-pressed.

I'm not sure how this applies to the discussion, but it would be fairly easy to have a dirge alt outparse a fighter main depending on the gear involved. If I decked out my pally in reasonably good DPS gear, I likely wouldn't touch my troub's DPS.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:13 PM   #43
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Actually its a pretty good estimate of gear/DPS disparity - I'll test on beta once my dirge copies over but: pretty similar gear (This is a epic training dummy FYI)

Paladin and Dirge - I can provide screenshots of full parse if necessary

--------------------
Autoattack only
--------------------

DIRGE
1m51s 1,839,450.29 EncDPS

PALLY (Tanking Gear, Off Stance, "DPS" Spec)
10m48s 314,513.61 EncDPS
all outgoing the same

PALLY (Tanking Gear, Def Stance, Tank/Normal Spec)
16m10s 210,172.99 EncDPS
all outgoing the same

--------------------
Max DPS
--------------------

DIRGE
0m47s 4,343,183.15 EncDPS

PALLY (Tanking Gear, Off Stance, "DPS" Spec)
1m59s 1,713,372.40 EncDPS
(5,427,290.17 all outgoing)

PALLY (Tanking Gear, Def Stance, Tank/Normal Spec)
3m17s 1,043,294.57 EncDPS
(5,427,290.17 all outgoing)
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:19 PM   #44
Genghes

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That's pretty bad sadly
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Old 11-03-2015, 12:56 AM   #45
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This is a very big problem.
Anywho, I was wrong on my AFK-AA threat generation estimate. I logged on a guildie's SK (they quit) with less-than heroic equipment (i.e. < 0/4 green gems, sub level 100 green adorns, missing white adorns, etc.) and obtained the following logs. No temp clickies, adornments, dieties, grandmaster spells (I'm too cheap to use a krono for you, sorry) etc. were used. Literally whack a mole in defensive stance, I didn't even read the skill descriptions.

Bow AFK
[IMG]
Sword AFK
[IMG]
First time I ever played a SK, 2.8m EncDPS
[IMG]
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Old 11-03-2015, 02:55 AM   #46
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There's some glaringly obvious discrepancies between what you and Boli have to offer. Stats-wise and gear-wise. It doesn't matter if this SK quit, or if you didn't read the skills (it's usually pretty well known what most of the better skills are for various classes). I'm not sure where or why this turned into some kind of p1ssing contest, but it isn't.

Should Boli lrn2play? This is what I'm getting from what you're posting. Thing is, he's a tank with less than optimal gear that likely runs PuGs. You, even if you do PuG to a degree, are in a much better situation overall with a pocket-healer and gear that eclipses what Boli is running. This isn't a lrn2play situation. It's a "how does one adapt given their circumstances?" kind of situation. Humble brags don't further the conversation at all.

Same thing applies to you.


Boli, there are a few things you could do that feed into your DPS without any significant lose to your survivability and/or ability to maintain hate. Some of your gear could be easily upgraded as well. This doesn't guarantee that you will hold aggro all of the time, but it should help. I have some decent gear on my pally, but I also have some pretty crappy stuff. I also don't pay him nearly as much attention as I used to... so don;t use him as any kind of template.
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Old 11-03-2015, 03:30 AM   #47
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To put it bluntly - yes. There are too many fundamental mechanic oriented flaws for him to contribute in a balance oriented discussion.

I can explain these mechanics, which I have done before numerous times, or I can try something different that lets him discover them for himself. Here are some characters that I consider poorly geared compared to raid characters. Here they are in scenarios that we can agree are unfavorable to them. Yet the problems he is experiencing are not present. Perhaps they aren't problems after all?

P.S. The only time the monk loses aggro to the raid geared assassin is during a Combat Mastery + Ethereal Bow Proc + Charm'd FFU Chain in the RC Event 3rd encounter. I could blame gear or composition, but before I do either of those, I'm going to point out that Poring could have Peel'd on pull and avoided the scenario completely. #evengoodplayerscangetbetter
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:17 AM   #48
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I think that his input only helps to balance the discussion. His suggestions may not be something that the devs consider, but his input can prove useful when considering the spectrum of players in the game. It would be nice if we could all be well-learned individuals in the art of EQ2 but some people just don't play that way. I find a happy medium somewhere in that spectrum.

That's great. You've put a lot of time and effort into understanding the game and communicating it to others. The thing is, there's a fairly big gap between what you feel is "poorly geared" or "well played" versus what is out there. You can't dismiss it out of hand. You can't cater to it, either. His problems may not be universal, but they are not unique.

Anyway, tl;dr I think your approach is flawed. Your numbers are not. The approach, however, is where most of the value lies in this case.
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Old 11-03-2015, 05:03 AM   #49
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Developers listening to people like him are the reason we have %hp, %mit, and %block on equipment. The exact problems he is complaining about, fighter itemization and fighter lack of damage, originated from the complaint that "fighters lack defensive options on equipment," and lack of knowledge/experience. Similarly, because of players like him insisting that we can see an improvement from every item HPS has skyrocketed relative to player health and we're into a "ward non-fighters or die" scenario in high end content. Now we're in a gamestate balanced around those items that everyone hates - but openly requested. Be careful what you wish for.

So is "lol l2p" a "nice" approach? No, it isn't. However it wasn't my first, there were numerous posts that suggested alternatives or things to consider before the blunt "l2p", including the post before last! (Hint: bow vs. 1hs EncDPS). There are numerous ways to improve that don't involve changing the balance of the game, and it is best to leave those changes to players who understand their ramifications.

Right now the game is very fighter based, and it would be better for the game if it wasn't. Even for fighters.
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:08 AM   #50
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Much more important than here in the forum to rekindle a balancing discussion, which will never come to an end, it would be in my eyes, as well as already mentioned, to correct the outdated capabilities of all classes.

As for the balancing, so everyone has to a different view, depending on how one himself chooses his style of play.

Each of these perspectives has its place, advantages and disadvantages.

Basically, based EQ2 on the Holy Trinity => Tank, Healer, DD with the supplementary support ....

This has now resulted in once purely as a logical consequence:

Tank => survival and keep aggro
Healer => ensure survival
DD => cause Damage
Support => The 3 main types of classes in any form support to strengthen their success

...How these main functions of the classes will be implemented remains everyone left. ...

There is little to discuss it, to get a type of playing style is not clear, one should consider to change this, instead of asking the developers the game to their own style of play to adapt.

There is no perfect way of playing, which is the same for everyone.

It would be important to adapt the outdated capabilities of the classes already mentioned, and to make proposals on how this would be best, as well as the corresponding outdated skills, to enumerate not mentioned classes and not to get lost in pointless debates about more or less DPS of each class.

Because this discussion is not belonging to the beta even if you want to perform this necessarily.

For many years, it is always the same in the betas, each of the classes, fights to improve their skills against those of the other classes, instead of focusing on the real problem, the outdated abilities, due to the game mechanics changes.

Perhaps we should remind ourselves and back stronger now to do this to the actual topic.

But this is only my humble opinion.
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:05 AM   #51
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Incidentally please stop posting "all outgoing" - quite frankly if you hold agro no-one cares about how much threat you did - likewise no-one really cares how many cures or healing a healer did if you all survived; all it ends up doing is distorting a DPS parse.

That information, whilst fascinating and informative to the player or the raid leader after the fact doesn't kill mobs quicker - and I'm talking about fighter DPS which is too low - even with the 15% boost the gear disparity (mitigaiton% tax) and the fact fighters require more "passive" dps than scouts when they are runnign temp defensive buffs means they are still unfairly shoved to the bottom of the DPS rankings.
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:51 AM   #52
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btw I hope that the ability of bruiser would be enhanced. the kind of defensive arts of BRU are less than other tanks.And Unyielding Resolve( mysycal spell of BRU) has too much long recast timer compared to other tanks.
And why is there no stoneskin reaction with Stone Deaf( stone skin spell) ? Probably all fighter except for BRU has stoneskin WITH stone skin reaction.
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:13 AM   #53
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i just checked the parse of the last time i tanked the first named in the altar of malice zone. the one mob i always tanked in full defensive gear (playing as a monk).
i did 2.5 million dps that fight.
about 15% of that came from combat arts.
i did not lose aggro or have problems to be 2nd on the hatelist of the two adds that spawn and memwipe the offtank with only coercer hate buff/transfer. (thats not the point i am trying to make though)

in full dps gear(note that my set of dps gear is incomplete) i can do about the same dps as an inquisitor co-healing a group in this prettyheavy aoe fight. (he did 15million dps that fight).

it is, was and will be possible to hold aggro while tanking if you, your group and your raid know what they are doing but i find it sad that when pressing combat arts in the right order is about 80% of what i do it nets me 15% of a ridiculously low dps... (the % value is not much higher when in dps gear)
so with the current buff of 15% my combat arts would now do 17.5% of my dps... thanks for nothing^^

its fun to see some numbers and tanks currently are really bad at producing them in most situations. we are further away from being a contest to any support or dps class then we ever were so a little more buffing really wont hurt anyone...
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Old 11-03-2015, 12:45 PM   #54
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You and the SK are about equal in terms of equipment. The SK, however, plays a relatively optimized character for that equipment and you do not. I strongly suggest you look into the stat-weight constants available from the EQII census. This can assist you in reforging//spec'ing your character.

If a few people are interested in mathematical proofs of methods to spec characters w.r.t. AA damage vs. ability modifier I can do a tutorial, PM me.

On the topic of priest vs. fighter damage, fighter EncDPS surpassed priest EncDPS last expansion - as per my prediction in early March. If you're interested in that discussion PM me and I'll add you to it to avoid derailing this thread. tl;dr fighters scale better with stats, and this expansion inflated stats.

On the of DPS dps vs. fighter dps, DPS deal more damage than fighters. I don't see this change preventing fighters from doing their job. Threat was kind of AFK-easy in AoM and perhaps this will entice the involvement of utility characters (e.g. swashbuckler, coercer, etc.) which need the help.
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Old 11-03-2015, 03:31 PM   #55
Holyduke

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[QUOTEYou and the SK are about equal in terms of equipment. The SK, however, plays a relatively optimized character for that equipment and you do not][/quote]

Are you really comparing a SK DPS to a Pally's DPS? /boggle

Anyway, tanks in Defensive gear holding hate, once the changes happen. Dev's what about this idea. If tanks are in defensive stance, can you give use some + hate gain to our defensive stance? 20%? Maybe 30%? More/less? This will increase our hate, and allow us some more freedom when it comes to reforging, and adornments. I do not want to take away the roles of those that can increase a fighters hate, but maybe this will allow tanks to have a little more freedom? Easy change? Cap is 100% so dirges and others will still be needed.
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Old 11-03-2015, 03:59 PM   #56
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This is the type of discussion I was trying to prompt. Basically my initial point was NOT saying learn to play. It was, as others are now pointing out, more that threat transfers are basically a cover up to more glaring balance issues. If those were fixed, you wouldn't even need threat transfer.
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:52 PM   #57
Vainamoinen

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I beg to differ. There are some glaring differences in gear. Some of this (adorns) are things Boli has control over and should change. Others (drops, heroic/adv. solo) are things he cannot and has to live with.

He can (and should) work on optimizing a fair number of things that would bring him to a better place overall. Comparing the performance of a Dodge Dart to a Challenger doesn't really illustrate anything. This is why I say your "process" of didactic illustration is flawed.

So, I do think Boli has gone the wrong way with respect to some of his gear (esp. adorns) and some stats. He is, in many cases, using what he has available to him to do his job. It is unfair and nonconstructive to use the DPS of that SK as any sort of measuring stick for Boli. Even if he were better "optimized".

What do tanks need, besides gear, to hold hate more efficiently? A well thought out rotation. Get melee stats to a place where they are as best as you can get (flurry, DPS mod., multi-attack/AoE, strikethrough/accuracy), don't interrupt auto-attacks (go with 6s imo), and cycle thru the taunts and AoE's. Find some gear that isn't too hard to obtain that procs threat and/or AoE damage. Toons will die, but no one dies IRL, so losing aggro should not weight too heavily on any tank. I know some stress about it, but a good group will work on making things easier on you rather than harder. For now we have to rely on transfers (or lack thereof) to maintain aggro in some/many encounters. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because it helps promote "teamwork" and grouping.
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:25 PM   #58
Ingerimm

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Hello dear developers,

unfortunately we could now find no change in our nowadays pointless and outdated skills up.

So I think that this issue has not yet been adopted so far?

Can we possibly this addon after we now for the umpteenth time, in each of the last betas (eg ToV and AOM), in recent years, have written down everything and asked repeatedly to remedy this now finally in focus and tackle and eliminate these errors and problems?

It would be very nice if you could you problems even accept, because it seems to us after years as slowly as if it interested you as a developer do not, what we write together every single time again.

Because until now there was unfortunately no positive changes for years in terms of the issues raised today meaningless and oudated abilities.

Although it us every time (each Beta) says again, we are there but together write anything and you would you look after a revision.

What does it profit us again and again to write down everything, if in the end nothing happened?

I think it is unfair to us players compared to when it is used only for pure distraction to because then the new current addon, as one of you, was planned without considering our collection of problems without taking the existing problems in attack to have, at the end again goes live and we must wait for the next addon and the next Beta again, only to start the whole process over again.

A couple of years time, should actually have enough to us now finally be able to present a solution to the entire problems if for now, as promised, has been worked on the improvements and revisions for so long.

Thank you
Best regards
Ingerimm of Valor

P.S. Yes me are your problems, by the change of name and so on known nevertheless is it but for the most part, to the us for a long time accompanying same programmers and developers team.

... Let the improvements and revisions of all classes begin ...
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:54 PM   #59
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Original prestige tree for monks, Winds of Retribution AA has a proc Winds of Vitality that reads "Increases Max Health of caster by 34.5%" when it procs the effect in the spell effects window reads 23% and in fact the proc is only increasing max health 23%.
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:13 PM   #60
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Wow, seriously shouting l2play at lesser geared individuals is really not what i was after. It was the gear/class disparity between dps as well as all outgoing. (Which only blur the issue making your parses higher).

Pallys only really have two sets of passive threat procs, gear (have none) cavalier's cry (quite frankly need the AA elsewhere)

Fact one: my gear sucks but it along with a few less than optimal aa choices is to try and maintain a balance. To get gear upgrades my tank is pretty much required to run defensive. If you cant survive the agro, you cant tank.

Fact two: look at the stats carefully, and more importantly what can and cannot be reforged i might be able to squeeze a bit more dps mod or trade MA for attack speed but its pretty much maxed out. I choose 100% AE auto over that last few dps and attack speed mod. But i *had* to make that choice there was no quick fix of reforge a but of spare multi attack, as there isnt any.

I posted two sets of parses from similarly equiped and adorned individuals. Sure my dirge is more adept/expert quality spells but i am able to reforge more gear, balance my stats better and my passive as well as my active DPS is *far* higher.

In fact look at the all outgoing, my pally could hold agro off my dirge no problem - but thats not the point. *because* i have HAD to spec into mitigation% maxhealth% gear *just* to survive in instances (you know, to get more gear).the potential DPS of the class is pretty much bottom of the parse.

Annoyingly as the parse shows is there is lot of ibvestment already into potency and abiltiy mod gear (it is not my choice to choose that gear it is just the best available for me) so my passive dps as well as my active "spam like crazy" dps is a huge gulf.

Whilst this is what the devs (and scouts) want remember when tanking you would be running temp defensive buffs, stopping dps entirely watching the mobs casting bar to get your stoneskin in place and generally "tanking" so a tank can rarely go full dps in order to do their job.

At the end of the day as a tank wishing to group i am *required* to survive agro as well as hold it and the tank gear available at least to me is so skewed towards defense that there is no cool dps procs, no spare stats to reforge, its like that belt im wearing, got the option to reforge mitigation% or block% on it and there is no other spare stat to tweak its case of "wear this and suck it up you are a tank and t allowed to DPS".

A flat boost of 15% bonus to all fighter CAs vs 30% bonus to scout CAs is only going to widen this gap even further. In fact the only thing going for fighters this coming expansion is the WDB and crit bonus cap as it means we mught be able to move up on the passive dps the same level as scouts as they are going to be capped in this area... and thats something id rather not think about....
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