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Old 11-10-2015, 12:44 AM   #61
Taleise

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I've been a dedicated Inquisitor since 2005. For the last 3 xpack, the healing and usefulness of this class has been going downhill. It's a struggle to be relevant in a raiding environment and I feel like I'm a hairs width away from my raid group cutting me from the roster just due to the fact that every other healing class stomps me on both DPS and healing. And with cure spamming quieting down since CoE, even that one point of usefulness is out the window. Something needs to be done to keep this class that I hold so dear relevant and wanted in raids and groups. I'm not asking to be the best, I just want to be relevant and wanted and feel like I have a place. The class is hurting, I'm just not smart enough to know how, or what to do to fix it, I just know it needs some love. Thats all I'm asking for....pleading for. I do the best I can, with what I'm given, but it's just not enough to meet the demands of what is asked.
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Old 11-10-2015, 09:09 AM   #62
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You're right, the x2 in precipice is the only one who simply never triggers reactives. But even when they are triggering, they are sad. The way damage comes in, especially if you have a tank in your group, it tends to eat all of your triggers at once, often on damage that was warded or something anyway so no healing was even given. Of course druids have the same problem of heals being "wasted" in a sense... except HoTs don't have a finite number of triggers that get "used up" the way reactives do.

Still, with temps like dg, dw, inquisition (in the case of inquisitors), etc... reactives aren't the problem. Templars are kicking butt, even on fights that aren't arcane damage (few though they may be). When the game involves avoiding death from sources that deal more damage than players have HP in a single hit... inquisitors and wardens don't have strong tools to address that. Removing the 50% threshold from Inquisitors' Interrogation ward would be fine, but it won't make them useful in raids. Furies and channelers have more dps, mystics and furies have more relevant utility, every other priest would still be more stable on heals.

Excepting the nonsense with crit bonus and wards from ToV days... hear, hear.
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:27 PM   #63
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If you want to balance priests & raiding, the first thing that has to happen is the revision of the group Ward. That thing has caused problems since the beginning. Raid developers need to create encounters where mobs can actually damage the tank through an entire group Ward. That's a problem, and one of the reasons hits are so big.

Turn group ward into individual wards for each member and things will balance out a lot better, a lot faster.

Then, debuffs need to matter again. There was a time when if you failed to debuff the offensive capacity of a raid boss, your tank was in for a brutal death. Now? Pfft. Who cares. Sure, you want to debuff the defensive capacity of the boss in order to kill it faster, but offensively? Why bother? Consider that nearly every debuff that affects the offensive capacity of a mob hasn't been upgraded since . . . oh, here it is . . . Kingdom of Sky! Sure, stat debuffs have upgraded, but how much effect do they really have now? It's pretty miniscule considering the size of the debuffs versus the relative size of the stat pools.

This whole debuff thing has become less important with the radical increase in uptime of big abilities. For instance, in the beginning the Templar spell Repent was intended to help Templars level out spike damage. It was only available once every 30 seconds, and as a spike leveler, it worked well. Now it's available every 15 seconds, and it can be used as a rotational tool. There are other things as well, but overall, the fact that recast times are now half what they were before has caused raid mob DPS to increase in response.

Frankly, I'm not sure the situation is fixable. We haven't even talked about all of the "save" abilities that tanks have now which a raid developer must also consider. I think an NGE type change could fix this, but the DBG staff isn't nearly large enough to pull that off, nor am I sure that the community would accept it.

I like the idea of priest balance, I think everyone probably does. Whether or not it can be pulled off in EQ2 is another story altogether. It's one *&@# of a complex system these days. It's made even trickier by the fact that in any content short of raiding, priests are actually pretty well balanced.
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Old 11-10-2015, 04:28 PM   #64
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[quote="Sudedor, post: 6281517, member: 707766"

Then, debuffs need to matter again. There was a time when if you failed to debuff the offensive capacity of a raid boss, your tank was in for a brutal death. Now? Pfft. Who cares. Sure, you want to debuff the defensive capacity of the boss in order to kill it faster, but offensively? Why bother? Consider that nearly every debuff that affects the offensive capacity of a mob hasn't been upgraded since . . . oh, here it is . . . Kingdom of Sky! Sure, stat debuffs have upgraded, but how much effect do they really have now? It's pretty miniscule considering the size of the debuffs versus the relative size of the stat pools.
[/quote]

I remember raiding in KoS - especially at the beginning

Debuffs mattered, true but BOY did they matter; your swash and your dirge didn't log in.. uh oh might have to miss a few bosses. then your warrior didn't log in either (they had better mit) and it was a case of cross fingers and hope you don't get too many deaths as your crusader tried to prove themselves or your brawler played the RNG game.

Yes I think debuffs should still be useful but they should be better distributed across all the classes.

Fury debuffs (for example) are a joke - debuff AGI/WIS encounter casting skills (both of these actual abilities never used) or -5% crit chance (on a focus effect) - they can all pretty much be removed and no-one will miss them.
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Old 11-10-2015, 04:49 PM   #65
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And that is the basic problem with most debuffs, especially priest ones. The amount debuffed is such a small percentage of the total that it is not even noticeable. A while back in AoM I did some testing on debuffs vs dps/time to kill vs a couple of Advanced solo mobs, and after 10 tries, I could see zero difference between debuffed and not. Most I don't even bother to cast anymore except as filler while waiting for my "real" spells and CA's to come back up.
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Old 11-10-2015, 05:08 PM   #66
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TBH I'm in favor of a full debuff revamp

All Priests get a offensive debuff and a defensive debuff
one is encounter based one is single target and say twice as effective (e.g. decrease mitigation of target encounter by 250 | decrease mitigation of single target by 500)

These are all small spells but they all can stack and they all deal respectable damage (so everyone will use them)

and they are ALL the same (although who gets what encounter and single target will be different)

e.g.

Fury
Reduce single target DPS and attack speed by 20 - Does XXXX damage
Reduce mitigation of target encounter of all damage by 250 - Does XXXX damage to Encounter

Templar
Reduce Encounter DPS and attack speed by 10 - Does XXXX damage to Encounter
Reduce mitigation of target of all damage by 500 - Does XXXX damage

So the more different types of healers you bring the more you can stack the debuffs but it will not be the case of "didn't bring a shammy debuffs go home and try again next raid night"
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Old 11-10-2015, 05:37 PM   #67
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This isn't about adding damage to debuffs. It's about making the debuffs matter. Honestly, it's not just Priests with this problem. Bards have tons of debuffs . . . if only some of them mattered. Many of their debuffs have been upgraded more recently, however those debuffs also have damage components and so could not be ignored, whereas many Priest debuffs don't have damage attached.

As my main is a Mystic, I'll use that as an example.

Umbral Trap - Level 35, debuffs DPS of target encounter by 18.9 at Master.
Lethargy III - Level 63, debuffs attack speed of target encounter by 26.1 at Master.
Haze VI - Level 66, debuffs attack speed of target by 26.6, weapon skills by 15.8 at Master.
Lamenting Soul III - Level 67, debuffs DPS of target by 38.8 at Master.
Deteriorate VIII - Level 96, debuffs STR & AGI by 167.2 at Master.

I look at those debuffs and compare them to my own stats, and I think "I don't really care if someone debuffs me". I mean, you could debuff me by 10 times that amount and it would still make only a very small difference to me.

Imagine how a Heroic or Raid boss feels about those debuffs. Just not worth the time it takes to cast them.

The whole point of debuffs is that they are supposed to matter, they are supposed to make encounters easier, or sometimes even doable. I remember when you could actually tell if the mob was debuffed or not from a healers point of view. At the beginning of a fight you'd be throwing everything you had at the tank to keep him up until the mob got debuffed, then it would smooth out. Now? Pfft. Pre-ward and start nuking.

BORING.
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Old 11-10-2015, 09:00 PM   #68
Awesomeo

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Yeah, they capped my WDB and made me sad Frown
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:36 AM   #69
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With the exception of HP and resists (physical/arcane/nox/elemental) most of the other stat debuffs have become rather jokingly garbage. Problem is they have not been scaled accordingly since KoS. In raid I always use my passive heals which debuff pot/hp of target physical debuff and yes even smite corruption for its damage (it's wisdom debuff is so jokingly low at this level of the game its a non issue). For years all classes have asked for an improvement of their debuffs to no avail...and yes I agree with Boli I too miss the days of all debuffs mattering.

As for unwardable damage please god no...does something need to be done for the non shamans especially wardens and inquis yes I agree but bringing back the ugly red headed stepchild of unwardable damage will make things worse not better for all.
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:41 AM   #70
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Sooooooooo has there been any priest balancing at all this xpac??
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Old 11-11-2015, 02:04 PM   #71
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I dont think they even looked at this forum. Just put it up here to appease us.
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:06 PM   #72
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So any news on if they are planning on boosting priest combat arts? Would be nice considering how little damage priest ca's are still doing and how easy it is to gain doublecast in beta. My mystic has been my alt for a long time, was my main for a bit but I play him a good bit, if things stay as they are the ultilty mystics have will still be super super high but will definitely be taking a hit to our own personal dps especially compared to a defiler who knows what they are doing. I could be way off base as I haven't had a whole lot of time to play in beta so this is more what I'm forecasting than anything
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:36 PM   #73
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I've been getting the impression for several expacs now that they're trying to REDUCE healer dps. Fighters and scouts got compensation for the loss of dps from capping wdb and crit bonus and priests didn't. At a guess, I'd say that is because they WANT healer dps to go down. With the increase of numbers of dps checks and the shift back towards total domination of wards on the heal parse that is very depressing. Many of our buffs have lost usefulness with the newly introduced caps, our personal dps has taken a hit and wards are dominating so much, I fear many healer classes have become much less useful, effective and desired Frown
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:39 PM   #74
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Channeler dps has benefited substantially from all the CB, flurry and melee stats. As the matter of fact a Channeler posted the second highest parse that I seen on beta at 120 mil.
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:49 PM   #75
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Uh... CB, flurry and melee stats have always been available. Just now CB (and wdb) are capped, so anybody who was close to or at the now capped values before isn't going to see an increase, which is why they upped scout and fighter CA damage..
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:57 PM   #76
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Channelers are by far the most gear dependent class in the game. In AoM most guilds refused to run Channelers because they were just not putting up the numbers. Part of that is by design. The pet absorbs so much damage it's insane. BUT I think Channeler popularity is about to come full circle.

There is a couple fights in ToT that pretty much require a Channeler in the scout group. The groups need to run and they can cast on the move when Quick Tempo is down (among other things like the insta clean rez from pet while on the move). I think every raid leader should be adding a Channeler to their lineup for ToT. You'll want them, trust me.
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Old 11-11-2015, 07:02 PM   #77
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*nod* From what I've seen channelers and shaman will rule this expac, healing side, to the extent that a group without one or both of those classes may not survive.
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:49 AM   #78
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That's BS that Channelers can pull those dps numbers and Inquisitors won't even come close.Our cloak is looking very underwhelming. (Flurry would be nice) Actually the whole class is looking very underwhelming this expansion.

Inquisitors are now worse off this expansion because of:
a) No attention to our class or ability scaling.
b) Getting indirect nerfs (WDB/crit bonus caps) with nothing to compensate for the loss of damage.

It seems like the battle cleric is no longer a valid play style. It'd be nice if a developer could confirm if they plan on making Inquisitors rely on spell damage/ranged auto attacks and doublecast moving forward. It appears that way based on the lack of melee healer itemization. I'm also noticing a lack of mitigation on healer plate armor as well. What is also confusing is that clerics can't use tower shields either. They're limited to bucklers.

Overall, I'm just wondering what the class has evolved into. So far it looks like the least desirable healing class that can't really dps, or heal while mobile, or find raid spots.....
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Old 11-12-2015, 12:32 PM   #79
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Except inquisitors surpass channelers in every relevant DPS area.
Higher AA Multiplier (huge)
Higher Innate Flurry/WDB Modifier (significant)
Higher Base Values on Abilities (huge again)
GW Damage Proc (huge-est, but no one cares)

tl;dr inquisitors have been the highest ST EncDPS priest since ToV, nothing has changed.
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Old 11-12-2015, 06:38 PM   #80
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Higher multiplier... yep, that's pretty sweet as long as you don't have to joust or move or anything that takes you out of melee range since that bonus does not apply to spell weapons, and range is not a problem for channelers

innate flurry/wdb... was significant when everyone wasn't capped on both anyway

higher base values on abilities... doesn't look true from what I can see, even if you assumed that every tick of inquisitors' dots landed before being recast, which isn't the case.

GW damage proc(s) - Act of war and fanatical devotion add up to quite a bit of damage across the group, but as you correctly mentioned, no one notices or cares.
I expect Inquisitors will not stay at the top on ST fights, since most inquisitors are already WELL over the 300 wdb cap and auto attack is >70% of their dps. I can't speak to the plight of channelers, but I'd expect to see the spellcaster type priests emerge much stronger in this expac.
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Old 11-12-2015, 11:57 PM   #81
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Last time I played an inquisitor AA range was 7+ m iirc? Pretty easy to AA stuff, and that was in PoW with "LOL Boar Trash".
Let me help you...
1538 > 1176, census borks when exporting some of their CAs so I'm not providing an extensive list.
Invocation Strike - 692-846
(692+846)/2 * 1/(0.25 + 0.25) = 1538
Not factoring in double casts, prestige bonus, mitigation debuffs, etc
Vengeful Arrow XI - 475-937
(475 + 937)/2 * 1/(1.5 + 0.25) = 362.28
With prestige;(4+3+2+1)/4* (475 + 937)/2 * 1/(1.25 + 0.25) = 1176.6*
The last 25% is "faster" than the first 25% due to reasons I won't go into here (this is an optimistic estimate)

Channelers are AA, if you want to estimate channeler DPS just simulate Vengeful Arrow. It really is that easy, you could even estimate your inquisitor damage if you were a channeler! The formulas are there, and they are less than favorable (to channelers).
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:13 AM   #82
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...auto attack range is 4m...
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:24 AM   #83
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As for the rest... I hate math enough that I'll never voluntarily read your equations, but in practice, a channeler with gear and stats comparable to my inquisitor, doing a similar amount of damage, gets a significantly higher percentage of damage from combat arts than my inquisitor. So... that's where I'm coming from.
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:38 AM   #84
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5 m. It was also bugged* (?) to be influenced by Reach of Faith for 7.5 m, but this could have been patched since DoV.

Channeler AA damage "best case scenario" is 11% less than an inquisitor. Realistically it is in the range of 30% less, but this varies with build and equipment. That difference isn't "made up" by channeler damage base values. If a channeler is dealing more damage than your inquisitor, they either have a better gear or a better player.

Anecdotal evidence is... not great. You're either into math or you're not into comparing class damage. Priests are fairly straight forward as far as damage comparisons go, its all downhill from here.

[edit]Confirmed patched since DoV. Best guess is when FD was changed to not proc off MAs. #ninjapatchnotesplz
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Old 11-13-2015, 02:07 AM   #85
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I didn't say the channeler was doing more damage than my inquisitor, I said it was getting a higher percentage of its damage from combat arts. The actual amount of damage was close to even, with the channeler tending to come ahead on AE type fights and me coming ahead on 1-few targets.

No question the channeler is a better player. *hat tip* Smile
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:12 PM   #86
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AE is special as channelers effectively have infinite blues, so they benefit greatly from procs in this regard (e.g. VC). Similarly, inquisitors proc way more effects single target i.e. faster CAs, lower AA delay. That could explain your experiences if you were in a high-on hit effect setup.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:35 PM   #87
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4 days til launch and no developer feedback. Caith? Any plans to make Inquisitors more desirable this expansion?
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Old 11-13-2015, 07:43 PM   #88
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any chance to get cloaks and belts with flurry AND doublecast ? hybrid classes could use them to keep up
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Old 11-15-2015, 12:52 AM   #89
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This whole debate about who's got it worse, inquisitors or channelers, is silly.

The fact of the matter is, they both need some serious attention from the devs. Is there a single top raiding guild that regularly uses either? I'm not raiding anymore and it's partly because my favorite class is irrelevant, and has been for a long time now.
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