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Old 11-08-2012, 03:17 AM   #1
slippery

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Do you really believe it should be this easy? I mean, this is going to be record breaking clear time for the expansion. The stuff is too easy. It literally just falls over and dies. I don't even know what to say. There has to be some stuff that has some challenge for people to work on. I really hope you've got 2 more zones coming in 3 months, because people are going to be done with this content with nothing to do. If people have to wait 6 months for more to do beyond this I really can't see people sticking around.

Raiding is dieing, and you aren't helping it. Making everything easier isn't helping it. I want EoF and TSO again. I want things you have to communicate. I want things you have to coordinate. I want creative scripts, not just multiple scripts of the mob standing there and dieing, or kite something while you kill it (that's pretty much the only 2 scripts). I want AOE content that lives, with big packs of mobs. Tyrannus, Field General, Ykesha, Gynok, the traps after the portal in Palace. I want Anashti where people have to pay attention. The challenge mobs in SF where all good too. Waansu could be annoying because of his large hit box and a kb that didn't really need to be there, but it was a good encounter. So where the Twins, Sages, Theer, Tox, all the challenge mobs in Underfoot Depths. It was all good content. Now? I just don't see it. We aren't even in the same realm anymore. People used to have things to work on, something they could look forward to seeing. Now you are so obsessed with everyone seeing the "story" that they don't have anything to look forward to. There is nothing to see. There is nothing to get excited about because you've already killed everything and seen it all. There used to be excitement. The first time you killed Field General and got to Ykesha was exciting. 

Drinal is not there. It is not close to there. You wanted to replicate the choose your own path encounter. You bombed. It just isn't there. People remember there for a variety of reasons. What is the primary one? The falling floor. Between the encounter itself, the casting on the run, the buffs from the tiles, and the falling in holes, it created a unique and interesting encounter that (wait for it) you where going to fail. People where going to die. It was bound to happen, every single pull. People where going to die. But you could recover. You could manage and move on. Sure, failing made it harder, but it didn't cause a wipe either. Being able to fail and succeed because you are still doing the right things with an encounter that tests your ability to keep it together was Theer. Drinal is not Theer. 

Give me something, anything. Please. Hell, even Drunder HM was good. It was just too early, and too hard, with far too many patches to make workable. The content was something you had to actually work on. Something where you had to complete the scripts. It had it's bad things, like class debuffs and coop strike, but if you took that out generally it would have been really good content. During the time it was released if it didn't need so much crit chance and the mobs didn't ignore so much mitigation it really would have been a workable zone for a lot more players. Drunder in the SS area is good and interesting for the guilds who hadn't done it (for those who farmed it all before SS it really didn't have any hp anymore, and they had done it enough that they really didn't want to anymore)

PoW is going to need some attention if you really intend top guilds to keep running it. I need an option to skip to Teku and ignore the rest of the zone (kind of like port to trakanon). I need a method to remove all the trash. People don't want to spend 3+ hours in PoW anymore when they have been doing it for 6+ months, just for the chance at a cloak. A cloak that for us doesn't exist. We've seen 2 in what has to be about 30 kills now. That really makes me want to go back for them, especially when for 90% of the classes the only reason they'd want it is for 2 red slots since the effect is useless as can be. It makes it even worse that you are raising the level on mobs so you still get punished by the awful con system.

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:23 AM   #2
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Where is the carrot really.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:02 AM   #3
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Having minimal challenging raid content is a bad strategy that will just backfire. Challenging content needs to exist in meaningful amounts for those raiders that find the normal stuff trivial ... while also serving the dual purpose of providing something for the rest to aspire to.

Arabel has it right - the most recently enjoyable encounter for me was (4 rune) Theer - which was actually challenging for the right reasons (because it forced players to be proactive in a positive way to win - not by throwing umpteen control dets and curses at people).

I was worried when I saw Sleeper's Tomb, that it marked a new direction for raid content, and it won't surprise me if it actually turns out to be the case.

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Old 11-08-2012, 04:08 AM   #4
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It makes it fairly hard to pay $40 for something you KNOW first hand isn't all that interesting or challenging.

I appreciate the work that goes into making an expansion, but with less than a week to release I dunno... I don't see encounters / zone suddenly becoming "tweaked". For content that's supposed to be new and not just a remake, it sure doesn't make a great name for itself so far in Beta when it comes to the raiding part of the game.

How can a second level-raise since the release of Plane of War justify that zone still being the "end game" zone? A few sidegrades here and there sure, but ugh.... Skyshrine, Sleepers, and now a "content" expansion will still keep Plane of War a zone to keep going back into. Doesn't feel good.

That aside... things look "pretty" at least :/

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Old 11-08-2012, 05:24 AM   #5
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To put it frankly, HARD raid content is what I play EQ2 for. There are countless MMO's with easy raid content that can be cleared and on farm status within a few short months if not weeks. That is also why me and several of EQ2 raiders don't play those games. Trust me, we get around. SWTOR, GW2, WoW, Rift, lots of EQ2 raiders have played these and even raided in them and we didn't stay. Why? Because they were too easy. It's that clear cut.

more "4 rune theer" raid content would be ideal. Failing that i would gladly take more "Plane of war"s or "drunders" over more "sleepers tomb"s even with all the dets.

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:45 AM   #6
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You are unpleaseable.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=521365

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Old 11-08-2012, 12:06 PM   #7
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

You are unpleaseable.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=521365

Nope. Laid out pretty clearly what he wanted, even citing examples from this very game. He, we, want it to be 'just right' doesn't mean we are unpleasable. It means the devs aren't getting it right.

If the devs got it close to right and not this bang my head on the wall hard or steamroll easy you might be able to say unpleasable, but that is not the case here.

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Old 11-08-2012, 12:40 PM   #8
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

You are unpleaseable.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=521365

I'll be waiting for you to find me the threads about these things I hated where I contradict what I said here.

I don't mind there being easy content, but there needs to be some content that isn't steamrolled. I gave very good examples of content that guilds could work on and kill, but everyone didn't just plow through. My stance on this hasn't wavered in years. I didn't like Easy/Hard DoF because it made annoying encounters. It took what could be good encounters and basically added too many control effects. It also made you raid the same thing twice as much while gearing up. It also did the very thing I mentioned above, you already saw it so there was nothing to look forward to. You'll find my posts about SF enjoying it, with the exception of too many curse cures (and the contested system at the time which is irrelevant to now). Something that kind of got fixed when they went to them not getting wasted.

My complaints have been about old content not being useful. Useful doesn't mean I should still have to farm it every time it is up because it drops the best loot. Plane of War gear should all be replaceable by now, but they didn't put in enough challenging content to do so. There are 4 challenge mobs this expansion, that is it to my knowledge. The top 10 will have them dead in a week.

My feedback has been clear, but they halfway use it. They take what they want and forget the rest when it is complete ideas that work together with synergy.

Nothing I asked for is about me, it's about a healthy game. Raiding is dying, the evidence is all over the place. There has to be something to work for. You can't have 4 challenge mode mobs that even the worst guilds will have 2 of dead in a week. EoF and TSO are great examples of how you can make raiding have something that works. It gave everyone stuff they could do, but it also gave them something to work for.

There is this amazing thing called a middle ground. You know, where encounters give you something to do other then stand there and die, but aren't dependent on you have a raid of 4 tanks 3 coercers and prayers you don't eat cooperative strike to the face. I gave great examples in that post how you could tweak Plane of War encounters to make them good encounters, as well as why they are bad encounters. You'll also note that no where in this post did I say I wanted any more encounters like their are in Plane of War. I even addressed Drunder in this post in a consistent way with that post.

Again, waiting for examples, specific quotes, not general statements that have zero context and no basis in reality.

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Old 11-08-2012, 01:10 PM   #9
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

You are unpleaseable.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=521365

Were all the words after "too hard" and "too easy" bigger than you're used to? 

I was a little worried that Arabel's previous post would swing things too far in the other direction.  The point of the first post was that there were certain luck-based and not-fun mechanics included in PoW and other zones.  The request was to tweak the fights a little to make them more fun.  It wasn't a request for moar Skyshrine.  I'm sure the devs understood what he was getting at.

Skyshrine type difficulty is fine, but you need to have both ends.  Easy stuff that even the most casual raiders can complete and have fun is great, but you need something for those that want to be challenged too. 

You can say, "well, it's only 10 guilds completing Plane of War, it's better to let the whiners go and make content for the masses."  The problem with that is the challenging content is what separates this 8 year old game from the masses of newer, prettier games.  If the top guilds get bored and quit it will impact the majority's decision on whether to continue as well.  It will spread. You saw a ripple effect from the poor itemization of DoV and raiding lost a lot of long-term established guilds.  All guilds need to feel like there is something out there to shoot for whether they reach it or not.

If all this content is cleared by 10+ guilds in the first week it will be a struggle to keep these guilds together waiting months more for some sort of challenge.  You can't release a new expansion and have a zone that's 17 months old still be your top content.

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Old 11-08-2012, 01:28 PM   #10
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All I see you saying is I want this and I want that, I pay for this, I don't want to pay for that, I, I, I.

Really?

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Old 11-08-2012, 01:45 PM   #11
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Yael is the closest I can think to them getting it right. It was a challenging encounter that required no nerfs before it was killed.

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Old 11-08-2012, 01:45 PM   #12
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slippery wrote:

...Nothing I asked for is about me, it's about a healthy game. Raiding is dying, the evidence is all over the place.....

This post and the other is ALL ABOUT you and the about 1000 people (about 2% of the overall population in PoW, and .2% actually clearing it) that share your view of the game.  That the game should be all about raiding. Your posts are not about the 'game' they about 1 small fraction of the population and raiding.  Great ask for what you want, as do I.  $OE has catered to that giving you harder and harder content trying to keep the top 1%, and in the process destroying server populations as mere mortals just leave.  My server is a ghost town, and no guild on it (according to guildprogress) has cleared PoW even as of today.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:22 PM   #13
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Scripts are too simple.  There needs to be more depth to these fights than the simple tank and spank stuff we've seen since ST.  A red text AE to joust, moving the mob every X seconds (which isn't difficult at all), or kill 1-3 adds every minute seems to be the formula for most of these and nothing much else.  They would be fine if there was more to the fights but there just isn't much complexity at all to these scripts and so it's boring when there isn't anything to really fail at.  And I thought the new Avatars would at least have more complicated scripts where guilds could fail at but they seem more of the same simple scripts.

There needs to be challenge to fights to make gear progression meaningful and to give people reasons to log in.  When content is this easy, people will gear up fast and get bored.  Logging in to clear zones will just be a chore, like PoW trash which is nothing but tank and spank.  There needs to be a mix of easy and hard content, but this expansion seems to be only easy content.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:33 PM   #14
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

slippery wrote:

...Nothing I asked for is about me, it's about a healthy game. Raiding is dying, the evidence is all over the place.....

This post and the other is ALL ABOUT you and the about 1000 people (about 2% of the overall population in PoW, and .2% actually clearing it) that share your view of the game.  That the game should be all about raiding. Your posts are not about the 'game' they about 1 small fraction of the population and raiding.  Great ask for what you want, as do I.  $OE has catered to that giving you harder and harder content trying to keep the top 1%, and in the process destroying server populations as mere mortals just leave.  My server is a ghost town, and no guild on it (according to guildprogress) has cleared PoW even as of today.

I raid in a casual guild, and I'd like some more challenging content to go with the face roll content. (Skyshrine is a snooze that we can 2-group, we get obliterated when we try PoW.) The problem I see with the raid content is that it has too extremes 'so easy even somebody with no clue can do it' and 'so hard only the best of the best can do it'. I'd like something in the middle as an option. That being said, the 'bleeding edge' raiders do deserve at least one new zone after 2 expansions. Unless I change raid forces, I'll never see the zone, but that's not the point.

EQ2, generally, does a good job at appealing to a wide variety of people with a wide variety of preferences. THAT is the game's primary strength, in my opinion. Turn it into a vanilla appeal only/primarily that focuses almost exclusively on what 'most people' want will actually end up losing those 'most people' in the end after the people with less mainstream preferences leave.... because a huge number of those 'most people' participate in some of those 'fringe activities' to a greater or larger extent. And while things like decorating, housing, crafting, high end raiding tend NOT to be what most people come to EQ2 for, I'd guess it's what alot of them stay (or came back) for... because few if any other games do those things as well as EQ2 does.. or at least did.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:33 PM   #15
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Hrmm.  they add a brawler mob and people complain they can't dps as much as others.. 

then people complain stuff dies too easy.

just pointing out the obvious.

I'm not kidding.  If you want to help.  Tell them what effects you want to see on the mobs.

example.  -

high movement - disrupt fluid dps  (slippy floor)

ranged only fights - disrupt fluid dps

Port random people to zonein <3 heart the matron lol  (but dont det them on the way back!)

ring events - that arent easily killed

give them feedback they can use.  (not good enough is something but they need more)

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:34 PM   #16
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

slippery wrote:

...Nothing I asked for is about me, it's about a healthy game. Raiding is dying, the evidence is all over the place.....

This post and the other is ALL ABOUT you and the about 1000 people (about 2% of the overall population in PoW, and .2% actually clearing it) that share your view of the game.  That the game should be all about raiding. Your posts are not about the 'game' they about 1 small fraction of the population and raiding.  Great ask for what you want, as do I.  $OE has catered to that giving you harder and harder content trying to keep the top 1%, and in the process destroying server populations as mere mortals just leave.  My server is a ghost town, and no guild on it (according to guildprogress) has cleared PoW even as of today.

They are taking the correct position. Raiding shouldn't be all easy or all hard. they said several times that there should be easier content as well as challenging content, everyones happy. Proposing that all raid content be killable by most of the population while people who play specifically to raid are left bored is easily the more selfish position.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:34 PM   #17
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This is definitely a disheartening post.  I have raided since launch and never been in a top worldwide guild but loved the difficulty in raids and always pushing to clear an expansion while it was still the top teir.  Slip has it right where TSO/SF had some great raid encounters, and if the current ones are like ST, then its going to be a huge flop for the top raiders.  The middle and low teir raiders will get through it slower than the top but might finish off the expansion earlier than in the past.

I just wonder if we can get anymore meaningful changes in prior to next Tuesday... or is there a chance for some really meaningful changes and a date push for the good of the game as a whole.  I know raiding is not the only issue atm... crafting, prestige abilities for several classes, etc are still up in the air with needed changes but very little time to implement and test.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:35 PM   #18
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I would absolutely love to use your feedback to develope more challenging raids however you need to give us some concrete feedback that has specific examples other than "Its all too easy, make it better plzkthx"

I look at the raid forums very often throughout the day looking for feedback in general and have been responding to nearly every post regarding raids in Harrow's End and Altar of Abhorrence.

Get me some constructive feedback on what needs changed and we can take a look. Feel free to email it to me if you don't want to post it here. The lines of communication have been open this entire time and its your choice to use it or ignore it.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:40 PM   #19
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I understand you want specifics but don't act like we haven't given you a base line to work off of. Yael, 4 rune theer, anashti,  field general, heck even listing entire expansions to choose from. Ease up on dets, require things like attention to effects instead of just having gear/DPS checks. If you used these as a base line to start from CoE raids would be much better off than they are now.

There's not a whole lot of specific feedback we can give when its almost a complete wash. At this point feedback to the point where raiders would want things would be just short of redesigning entire encounters in some cases.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:43 PM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:

I understand you want specifics but don't act like we haven't given you a base line to work off of. Yael, 4 rune theer, ykesha, heck even listing entire expansions to choose from. Ease up on dets, require things like movement and attention to effects instead of jsut having gear/DPS checks. If you used these as a base line to start from CoE raids would be much better off than they are now.

All those things were considered when making the raids I have put in for the expansion. The number of detriments being cast in Harrow's End and Altar are significantly decreased than in previous zones. In fact the Drinal fight only has a curse to cure and 2 detriments to cure in its hardest form. Everything else is nearly completely reactionary.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:51 PM   #21
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People saying this is all about what Arabel/top 10 guilds want are totally wrong.

I've never raided that high up and likely never will but I still want somthing to look at think wow, that would be awesome to try, not even kill, just try. In DoV we killed all the easy mode and then went through the same zones again, it wasn't oh wow I get to do a new mob, it was I get to do the same mob with a more annoying script with class debuffs and more health and pray the healers are on their game (though I did prefer HM Kraytoc to em).

Drunder HM of course was too hard. Look at when it was released compared to when the top 10 killed the first 4 mobs, it was almost 6 months. Certain PoW mobs are/were a bit too random and annoying and so added a layer of difficulty that wasn't needed, in the thread linked Tagrin's charm was mentioned, it was almost 5 months from WW1st to WW10th on that mob. This suggests to me that it was stupidly tough for all but the very best guilds and very best set ups. Arguing that raiders asked for this content where you want to just watch tv and occasionally do somthing when you hear an ACT call or somthing in vent is beyond stupid at this point.

Since DoV we've seen the death of NPU, Azure Skies, Xanadu, Surreal among the top guilds along with numerous more lower down. I'm scared that boredom will set in among top guilds and the lower down guilds will fail as their best players then get recruited (this has happened in the past) along with top guilds calling it quits all together as leadership quits.

Personnally if my guild can clear every em mob and half the hm content in the first week I'm probably going to end up only logging in to raid as I'll have all the best stuff anyway and then later on probably quit once I get bored of even that.

EDIT: As for recomendations things that test people's attention while not making it an entire raid wipe would be good (4RT falling floor, hm kraytoc pillars to a lesser extent) along with aoe fights that last some amount of time rather than being swarm adds that die in >10 seconds.

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:04 PM   #22
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Here are our kill times on Altar x4 from last night: 

Fear Feaster: 1:34

Saranich: 0:49

Pharanich: 1:09

Enraged Imp: 0:17

Baroddas (challenge): 2:22

All were one-pulls except Baroddas which I think took like 5 pulls to get down.  We had a full raid, but not an ideal raid.  With fights all that short it's hard to give any kind of feedback as you can just plow thru any of the scripts except the gorilla.  Baroddas is an amusing fight. 

With detrimentals and script challenges we just want to be able to counter things, even if they are difficult as long as there is a solution.  Stuff like uncurable stuns or no-hostiles that we can't do anything about and just have to sit there aren't fun.

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:11 PM   #23
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You also give healers a lot of tools/cures to handle things but it seems like most of that is a waste on this content when there's very few things to cure (and no real urgency to curing), and other than tank groups, really heal through at all.  There should be real raid impacting reactionary events to these scripts, not "I didn't joust 1 red text so I just die and am rezzed 5s later".  I know you want specifics, but it's really hard to give without just inventing things to the scripts themselves because there's not much to fail in these fights other than the MT dying.

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:16 PM   #24
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Twyxx wrote:

Here are our kill times on Altar x4 from last night: 

Fear Feaster: 1:34

Saranich: 0:49

Pharanich: 1:09

Enraged Imp: 0:17

Baroddas (challenge): 2:22

All were one-pulls except Baroddas which I think took like 5 pulls to get down.  We had a full raid, but not an ideal raid.  With fights all that short it's hard to give any kind of feedback as you can just plow thru any of the scripts except the gorilla.  Baroddas is an amusing fight. 

With detrimentals and script challenges we just want to be able to counter things, even if they are difficult as long as there is a solution.  Stuff like uncurable stuns or no-hostiles that we can't do anything about and just have to sit there aren't fun.

What was your zonewide dps?

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:21 PM   #25
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Gninja wrote:

What was your zonewide dps?

4.9m for zonewide.

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:23 PM   #26
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Twyxx wrote:

Gninja wrote:

What was your zonewide dps?

4.9m for zonewide.

Great thanks!

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:35 PM   #27
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The last mob in Sleeper's Unearthed on challenge was pretty alright, too. But I haven't done Altar yet.

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Old 11-08-2012, 04:24 PM   #28
SirStike

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Idea for something different in a raid encounter.   Instead of having an uncured detriment wipe a raid like so many encounters do. Have it kill that particular person who is uncured,  but...  then he reborn/cursed to fight for the raid mob until he is killed again but now is an epicx4 of ones self and has x4 abilities while in that mode.   /shrug  just a thought,  might be fun and different.

Or if sounds to difficult and would still mean raid wipes,  then make it a requirement of the encounter that to start the encounter one person in raid must sacrifice self/become part of encounter in order to spawn the raid mob and that person who does sacrifice is raids choice,  but depending on the choice, the person will have its abilities x4 buffed and able to heal raid mob or dps encounter, etc.  and must be killed along with the raid mob. 

just a thought,  may already be something like this but in case not.

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Old 11-08-2012, 06:14 PM   #29
Tylia
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Kreton wrote:

You also give healers a lot of tools/cures to handle things but it seems like most of that is a waste on this content when there's very few things to cure (and no real urgency to curing), and other than tank groups, really heal through at all.  There should be real raid impacting reactionary events to these scripts, not "I didn't joust 1 red text so I just die and am rezzed 5s later".  I know you want specifics, but it's really hard to give without just inventing things to the scripts themselves because there's not much to fail in these fights other than the MT dying.

Personally, I'm GLAD this expansion raids aren't the total "cure fest" that the last several have been.  I especially dislike having to pre-cure so much of the time.  There is more to healing than curing dets and curses! 

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Old 11-08-2012, 07:37 PM   #30
Daalilama
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[email protected] wrote:

Kreton wrote:

You also give healers a lot of tools/cures to handle things but it seems like most of that is a waste on this content when there's very few things to cure (and no real urgency to curing), and other than tank groups, really heal through at all.  There should be real raid impacting reactionary events to these scripts, not "I didn't joust 1 red text so I just die and am rezzed 5s later".  I know you want specifics, but it's really hard to give without just inventing things to the scripts themselves because there's not much to fail in these fights other than the MT dying.

Personally, I'm GLAD this expansion raids aren't the total "cure fest" that the last several have been.  I especially dislike having to pre-cure so much of the time.  There is more to healing than curing dets and curses! 

This.....

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