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Old 12-24-2011, 07:08 PM   #31
Crismorn

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Novusod wrote:

For most part the over, over, over, over, and over again part of real raiding is:

WipeWipeWipeWipeWipeWipeWipeRaid called LOL

In PvP all you have to do to get rewards is simply by running into a zerg blowing a few AoEs, die and collect your write tokens. Repeat every ten minutes. Pretending this takes any skill at all is the biggest joke ever. After a few weeks you have the full set of gear and the whole PvP end game becomes pointless.

I second the notion to get rid of PvP gear. Eq2 is a PvE game and always has been. There is no PvP end game at all in EQ2.

Don't even try that card I could get fully raid geared on any toon in the next week where it would take me a month to get a full set of pvp gear.

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Old 12-24-2011, 08:03 PM   #32
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If they are completely different sets base state, blue stats, and procs. Or they are almost identical raid gear with one look and PVP with another but the stats are almost identical. Everyone was happy in TSO (well happier anyway) and you had no problem running instances and evening raiding in PVP gear.

If you go the rout to have raid gear and PVP gear with the same stats, PVP gear should be equally as difficult to attain. However all the past efforts should not be lost, after all when a raider started progressing they got to reap the rewards of having the old raid gear compared to the people stuck in PVP gear that did not work in PVE content? What I am saying is the old tokens and gear should not be rendered useless.

After all this is a PVP server and for the PVP side of the game you should be able to have the best gear for PVP attainable from PVP. Im just saying

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Old 12-25-2011, 02:04 AM   #33
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The point is, the stats should never have been separated.   There shouldn't be separate pvp and pve stats and gear. 

It should be as it originally was.  Enough kills to gain faction with Lucanic Knights, and then status to purchase gear.  That gave everyone the oppourtunity to compete with better geared players without having to defeat better geared players.

In the KoS expansion, once you had about 1600 kills, you could buy any piece of pvp gear.  You could make these kills from level 10 all the way to 70.  You can gain status in numerous ways other than killing players, so you could build up enough status, so that by the time you reached the level 70 cap, you could be prepared to fight, and fight on an equitable ground with others already at 70.

As it is now....   you arrive at 90 undergeared, and have to start from scratch with nothing to be competitive against those already 90 and with gear.  Thats not fun.

Do you want to play a tennis match against Rodger Fedder using a cracked wooden raquet and no shoes, while he has the latest Nike shoes and Head raquet?

Maybe it's a good idea to line up against Demarcus Ware in leather helmet?

The person who thought of this current pvp system has no idea what makes for good competition.

When KoS came out, pvp gear was not the ultimate reward.  A high title was.  Something that was entirely fluff, and didn't help one bit in any fights.  When EoF came out, status purchase was switched to token purchase, which started the downfall of pvp.

The basic flaw of the pvp game, has been, that gear became the ultimate reward of pvp.  When fame was changed from the old ladder system, there was nothing left to fight for except gear. 

The problem with this is, that fighting undergeared against better geared players is no fun.  As long as gear is the ultimate reward, and not the means to get to an ultimate reward, the game will continue to stink.

The devs haven't followed the story of the game  (Putting all the classes in all the cities was devestating to the story)

They tried to make pvp progression follow pve progression ( grind for gear,  raid/zerg) most people didn't join the pvp server because they loved raiding.

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Old 12-25-2011, 10:17 AM   #34
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I second to this, PvP and PvE stats shouldnt be separated. Just make some "uber" endgame PvE stuff not work in PvP in term of some nasty procs etc

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Old 12-25-2011, 05:33 PM   #35
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Lilflier wrote:

The point is, the stats should never have been separated.   There shouldn't be separate pvp and pve stats and gear. 

It should be as it originally was.  Enough kills to gain faction with Lucanic Knights, and then status to purchase gear.  That gave everyone the oppourtunity to compete with better geared players without having to defeat better geared players.

In the KoS expansion, once you had about 1600 kills, you could buy any piece of pvp gear.  You could make these kills from level 10 all the way to 70.  You can gain status in numerous ways other than killing players, so you could build up enough status, so that by the time you reached the level 70 cap, you could be prepared to fight, and fight on an equitable ground with others already at 70.

As it is now....   you arrive at 90 undergeared, and have to start from scratch with nothing to be competitive against those already 90 and with gear.  Thats not fun.

Do you want to play a tennis match against Rodger Fedder using a cracked wooden raquet and no shoes, while he has the latest Nike shoes and Head raquet?

Maybe it's a good idea to line up against Demarcus Ware in leather helmet?

The person who thought of this current pvp system has no idea what makes for good competition.

When KoS came out, pvp gear was not the ultimate reward.  A high title was.  Something that was entirely fluff, and didn't help one bit in any fights.  When EoF came out, status purchase was switched to token purchase, which started the downfall of pvp.

The basic flaw of the pvp game, has been, that gear became the ultimate reward of pvp.  When fame was changed from the old ladder system, there was nothing left to fight for except gear. 

The problem with this is, that fighting undergeared against better geared players is no fun.  As long as gear is the ultimate reward, and not the means to get to an ultimate reward, the game will continue to stink.

The devs haven't followed the story of the game  (Putting all the classes in all the cities was devestating to the story)

They tried to make pvp progression follow pve progression ( grind for gear,  raid/zerg) most people didn't join the pvp server because they loved raiding.

This

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Old 12-27-2011, 02:57 AM   #36
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Separation of PVP and PVE stats is precisely the reason why half of my guild and I left eq2.   While there were social issues to solve (namely the zerging for TSO gear), the TSO system was far superior to what exists today.  It allowed anyone to play in the way they wanted to--solo pvp, team pvp, or raiding, to better their character.  It's an RPG after all.. why shouldn't everything you do improve your character?  

That being said, I still prefer the old faction system over TSO.. but what exists today completely ruined the sense of freeform progression that had existed for so long..

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Old 12-27-2011, 07:37 AM   #37
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If they remove gear seperation there will be no choices other then raid gear or you lose, much like it nearly is now but much, much worse.

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Old 12-27-2011, 01:07 PM   #38
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Lilflier wrote:

The point is, the stats should never have been separated.   There shouldn't be separate pvp and pve stats and gear. 

It should be as it originally was.  Enough kills to gain faction with Lucanic Knights, and then status to purchase gear.  That gave everyone the oppourtunity to compete with better geared players without having to defeat better geared players.

Cant agree more seems every new "big" pvp update gives us yet another new faction to aquire gear instead of leaving it with the old standard of royal antonican guard or lucanic knights for the faction needed to start buying pvp gear

In the KoS expansion, once you had about 1600 kills, you could buy any piece of pvp gear.  You could make these kills from level 10 all the way to 70.  You can gain status in numerous ways other than killing players, so you could build up enough status, so that by the time you reached the level 70 cap, you could be prepared to fight, and fight on an equitable ground with others already at 70.

Agreed...but I think you overlooked the fact that when EoF came out they began to offer full class specific pvp armor sets which were dual use and class specific (something that they continued designing into RoK and TSO (which was the apex of pvp design).  Todays gear is pure garbage.

As it is now....   you arrive at 90 undergeared, and have to start from scratch with nothing to be competitive against those already 90 and with gear.  Thats not fun.

Agreed again.

Do you want to play a tennis match against Rodger Fedder using a cracked wooden raquet and no shoes, while he has the latest Nike shoes and Head raquet?

Maybe it's a good idea to line up against Demarcus Ware in leather helmet?

The person who thought of this current pvp system has no idea what makes for good competition.

No truer statement has ever been said and cant agree with the statement or the sentiment more than I do now.

When KoS came out, pvp gear was not the ultimate reward.  A high title was.  Something that was entirely fluff, and didn't help one bit in any fights.  When EoF came out, status purchase was switched to token purchase, which started the downfall of pvp.

I dont think the token system started the downfall of pvp I think it gave it bit of flavor and allowed more ability with the class specific armor and better designed gear to allow players to flex their skills and enhance their abilities...prob came in with SF's poorly designed gear, BG's and WF's and continued into DoV with gear design taking a complete nosedive (really no potency on pvp gear did the dev who designed this junk even consider shamans in pvp?)

The basic flaw of the pvp game, has been, that gear became the ultimate reward of pvp.  When fame was changed from the old ladder system, there was nothing left to fight for except gear. 

The problem with this is, that fighting undergeared against better geared players is no fun.  As long as gear is the ultimate reward, and not the means to get to an ultimate reward, the game will continue to stink.

The devs haven't followed the story of the game  (Putting all the classes in all the cities was devestating to the story)

I agree the devs for the most are oblivious to the realities of openworld pvp and possibly use BG feedback and a blanket statement of changes needed to pvp across the board but openworld pvp is a diffrent beast altogether and as such openworld needs specific changes in gear and mechanics than the carebear BG's.  As for all classes I don't think its ruined the game for our server but it has decimated the appeal of the pseudo faction (Exile) for raiding which is a good thing.

They tried to make pvp progression follow pve progression ( grind for gear,  raid/zerg) most people didn't join the pvp server because they loved raiding.

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Old 12-27-2011, 01:59 PM   #39
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[email protected] wrote:

Lilflier wrote:

In the KoS expansion, once you had about 1600 kills, you could buy any piece of pvp gear.  You could make these kills from level 10 all the way to 70.  You can gain status in numerous ways other than killing players, so you could build up enough status, so that by the time you reached the level 70 cap, you could be prepared to fight, and fight on an equitable ground with others already at 70.

Agreed...but I think you overlooked the fact that when EoF came out they began to offer full class specific pvp armor sets which were dual use and class specific (something that they continued designing into RoK and TSO (which was the apex of pvp design).  Todays gear is pure garbage.

When KoS came out, pvp gear was not the ultimate reward.  A high title was.  Something that was entirely fluff, and didn't help one bit in any fights.  When EoF came out, status purchase was switched to token purchase, which started the downfall of pvp.

I dont think the token system started the downfall of pvp I think it gave it bit of flavor and allowed more ability with the class specific armor and better designed gear to allow players to flex their skills and enhance their abilities...prob came in with SF's poorly designed gear, BG's and WF's and continued into DoV with gear design taking a complete nosedive (really no potency on pvp gear did the dev who designed this junk even consider shamans in pvp?)

The basic flaw of the pvp game, has been, that gear became the ultimate reward of pvp.  When fame was changed from the old ladder system, there was nothing left to fight for except gear. 

The problem with this is, that fighting undergeared against better geared players is no fun.  As long as gear is the ultimate reward, and not the means to get to an ultimate reward, the game will continue to stink.

The devs haven't followed the story of the game  (Putting all the classes in all the cities was devestating to the story)

I agree the devs for the most are oblivious to the realities of openworld pvp and possibly use BG feedback and a blanket statement of changes needed to pvp across the board but openworld pvp is a diffrent beast altogether and as such openworld needs specific changes in gear and mechanics than the carebear BG's.  As for all classes I don't think its ruined the game for our server but it has decimated the appeal of the pseudo faction (Exile) for raiding which is a good thing.

They tried to make pvp progression follow pve progression ( grind for gear,  raid/zerg) most people didn't join the pvp server because they loved raiding.

Thanks for agreeing with some of what I wrote, I'll try now to convince you to agree with the rest. 

The new EoF pvp gear was great for being competitive with the game and keeping people able to be competitive with raiders without having to raid, but by using tokens to buy it, instead of status, this started the state, of having to get all your kills for the top gear at the top level, and no way to get that gear without making those kills.  Which is fine, if you get to the top level first, but if you don't, you're SoL. 

This was the start of handing out wooden raquets and you can't get a better raquet till you win.  What?

As for the story.  Before KoS came out, I always wondered why those of us from freeport couldn't attack queynos, and why the heck were we able to group with players from queynos?  It made no sense after playing through the begining of the game and what the cut scenes and NPCs would say about the opposite city.

When Pvp opened...   Wow!!!  this is what the game is supposed to be.  Sneaking around Antonica, trying to get into queynos, attacking those self-rightous slaves of the Queen.   Then at the end of RoK, Templers were living in Freeport?  Are you kidding?  That sucked.  The Overlord let Rangers and Mystics in?   Seriously?  Did anyone programing the the game read the stories they had written?

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Old 12-27-2011, 02:44 PM   #40
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I've been following the conversation here...and even though I'm a newcomer to PvP...it seems the pvp / raid armor issue has been the most divisive.  Why not disallow both except for Battlegrounds & Raid Instances?

Then,

1) Make it to where you can only use crafted or quested gear applicable to that zone...

Though I suppose Chrono-ing could become an issue there with players w/ maxed AA's chronoing to lvl 32 , grabbing their 32 set and doing the same thing..so I suppose you'd have to limit either adjust AA's to go back or make it impossible to chrono to pvp?

2) Freeze the AA Bar at 50% for everyone

I suppose then you need some sort of reward?  Or do you?  Would a pvp system based on skill & fame be enough to have fun again?

Then again..it seems some people just don't want to experience a fair fight based on skill..and luck.

In my limited experience so far solo-ing.  I've been looking for player within 4 levels (higher or lower than me)...have had some really good fights.  Have died a lot...but a lot of those are from carnage from high level players looking to camp a low level fight going on.

Not sure why carnage is even allowed.  But hey...its just a cartoon.

Raf

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Old 12-27-2011, 03:18 PM   #41
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Raffir wrote:

I've been following the conversation here...and even though I'm a newcomer to PvP...it seems the pvp / raid armor issue has been the most divisive.  Why not disallow both except for Battlegrounds & Raid Instances?

Then,

1) Make it to where you can only use crafted or quested gear applicable to that zone...

Though I suppose Chrono-ing could become an issue there with players w/ maxed AA's chronoing to lvl 32 , grabbing their 32 set and doing the same thing..so I suppose you'd have to limit either adjust AA's to go back or make it impossible to chrono to pvp?

2) Freeze the AA Bar at 50% for everyone

I suppose then you need some sort of reward?  Or do you?  Would a pvp system based on skill & fame be enough to have fun again?

Then again..it seems some people just don't want to experience a fair fight based on skill..and luck.

In my limited experience so far solo-ing.  I've been looking for player within 4 levels (higher or lower than me)...have had some really good fights.  Have died a lot...but a lot of those are from carnage from high level players looking to camp a low level fight going on.

Not sure why carnage is even allowed.  But hey...its just a cartoon.

Raf

It doesn't really matter anyway.  The game is dying.  Sony's vision for the game is to squeeze money out of it.  There's no good story anymore, and gameplay is buy stuff with station cash.  At one time there were 6 pvp servers i think.  I might be wrong, maybe it was only five.  Now its one.

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Old 12-28-2011, 09:36 PM   #42
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Crismorn wrote:

If they remove gear seperation there will be no choices other then raid gear or you lose, much like it nearly is now but much, much worse.

Yup. 

Pre-Segregation pvp was "raiders auto-win all the time", with a single group of raiders easily standing up against 20-25 pvp opponents at once.  What happened back then is that most pvp players used to simply leave the zone when the word got out that a raid group was roaming in zone, because there was no point in giving the unkillable raiders the satisfaction of free kills.

TSO pvp revamp equalized the playing field and suddenly pvp players had a valid chance to compete.

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Old 12-28-2011, 10:54 PM   #43
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Neskonlith wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

If they remove gear seperation there will be no choices other then raid gear or you lose, much like it nearly is now but much, much worse.

Yup. 

Pre-Segregation pvp was "raiders auto-win all the time", with a single group of raiders easily standing up against 20-25 pvp opponents at once.  What happened back then is that most pvp players used to simply leave the zone when the word got out that a raid group was roaming in zone, because there was no point in giving the unkillable raiders the satisfaction of free kills.

TSO pvp revamp equalized the playing field and suddenly pvp players had a valid chance to compete.

No...   raiders only had a huge advantage during RoK, with the mythicals.   Before that, with KoS and EoF, there wasn't a huge advantage.

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Old 12-29-2011, 06:09 PM   #44
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SWTOR FTW SMILEY Just come on over. 123 servers 13million players! and thats not counting the EU Servers. Want PVP Swtor is where to be. And its actually pretty fun. 3 different PVP Enivorments to choose from as well.  Open Contested. All zone lvl 20+ PVP Warfares, with 8 games to choose from. and Lastly - In space Combat PVP. One of the funnest i have ever played.

Give it try, Good luck all!!

Prizzy

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Old 12-29-2011, 08:26 PM   #45
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Aoez wrote:

SWTOR FTW Just come on over. 123 servers 13million players! and thats not counting the EU Servers. Want PVP Swtor is where to be. And its actually pretty fun. 3 different PVP Enivorments to choose from as well.  Open Contested. All zone lvl 20+ PVP Warfares, with 8 games to choose from. and Lastly - In space Combat PVP. One of the funnest i have ever played.

Give it try, Good luck all!!

Prizzy

what does warfares even mean...?

are there global chat channels in SWTOR?

is there player relative camera adjustment & not view relative? i.e. pressing "A" or "D" adjusts facing without swivel adjusting player footing...

low class/race variety FTL...are AAs even worth a sheyeet in SWTOR?

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Old 12-29-2011, 08:48 PM   #46
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You would not like swtor Seliri, please stay here

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Old 12-30-2011, 08:49 PM   #47
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Lilflier wrote:

Neskonlith wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

If they remove gear seperation there will be no choices other then raid gear or you lose, much like it nearly is now but much, much worse.

Yup. 

Pre-Segregation pvp was "raiders auto-win all the time", with a single group of raiders easily standing up against 20-25 pvp opponents at once.  What happened back then is that most pvp players used to simply leave the zone when the word got out that a raid group was roaming in zone, because there was no point in giving the unkillable raiders the satisfaction of free kills.

TSO pvp revamp equalized the playing field and suddenly pvp players had a valid chance to compete.

No...   raiders only had a huge advantage during RoK, with the mythicals.   Before that, with KoS and EoF, there wasn't a huge advantage.

To clarify, raiders had "auto-win" advantages since Avatar gear dropped, so it wasn't just RoK but also TSO for over 10 months until TSO pvp revamp.  DoM raid groups were famous for revive camping players until they /quit or called out in order to establish zone superiority, and many players left zones to avoid the no-win.

PVP has had a rough time trying to get a fair shake vs PVE since SOE started to remove in-game choices in sweeping changes such as GU36 when they attempted PVP re-balance with class nerfs to end stuff like the KoS scout one-shots with assassinate, removing abilty to evac, etc.

Every time SOE removes significant in-game pvp choices from players, the servers soon consolidate... and now we're down to one server left!

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Old 12-30-2011, 09:47 PM   #48
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Neskonlith wrote:

Every time SOE removes significant in-game pvp choices from players, the servers soon consolidate... and now we're down to one server left!

amen

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Old 12-30-2011, 10:44 PM   #49
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Neskonlith wrote:

Lilflier wrote:

Neskonlith wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

If they remove gear seperation there will be no choices other then raid gear or you lose, much like it nearly is now but much, much worse.

Yup. 

Pre-Segregation pvp was "raiders auto-win all the time", with a single group of raiders easily standing up against 20-25 pvp opponents at once.  What happened back then is that most pvp players used to simply leave the zone when the word got out that a raid group was roaming in zone, because there was no point in giving the unkillable raiders the satisfaction of free kills.

TSO pvp revamp equalized the playing field and suddenly pvp players had a valid chance to compete.

No...   raiders only had a huge advantage during RoK, with the mythicals.   Before that, with KoS and EoF, there wasn't a huge advantage.

To clarify, raiders had "auto-win" advantages since Avatar gear dropped, so it wasn't just RoK but also TSO for over 10 months until TSO pvp revamp.  DoM raid groups were famous for revive camping players until they /quit or called out in order to establish zone superiority, and many players left zones to avoid the no-win.

PVP has had a rough time trying to get a fair shake vs PVE since SOE started to remove in-game choices in sweeping changes such as GU36 when they attempted PVP re-balance with class nerfs to end stuff like the KoS scout one-shots with assassinate, removing abilty to evac, etc.

Every time SOE removes significant in-game pvp choices from players, the servers soon consolidate... and now we're down to one server left!

placating Crismorn's ignorantly linear form of "logic" absolutely debunks this whole debate on "detail"

you're acting like "In PvP" versions of PvE raid gear cant be made weaker than a new hardmode PvP gear thatd require a 3-pronged approach to obtain (see #16 in the 45 PoAfEP)

& we can't assuredly denote EQ2's decline due to PvP nerfs & content removals

it could be that EQ2 naturally just bores people over time & they wouldve left anyways

although that's doubtful, as there have been a lot of severely grave mistakes... O_o n_n

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