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Old 11-12-2006, 12:35 AM   #31
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Most epic mobs have around 450-500+ stats in everything so this buff was debuffing around 160 of every single stat in 32% form.  48 seems a bit low considering Hex Doll does better, but this debuff was indeed quite to good.
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Old 11-12-2006, 04:24 AM   #32
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They just need to combine abhorrent seal and maligancy if they are going to do this. Maybe call it Malignant Seal SMILEY
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Old 11-12-2006, 05:04 AM   #33
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KingJames1975 wrote:

Ok, yes it is a nerf of a spell that was waaaay better than anything else out there. But it is still good compared to alot of the debuffs.


How many other classes have you looked into? You are basing this on your experience with one class, the fury from the looks of your post. Furys are so popular because they can dps as well (hence the popularity) as heal unlike defilers whos sole role is to ward and debuff. Every tried soloing with one? Compare that to your fury.  Bards can debuff stats to the tune of 200 so without knowing how many of a stat a mob has how do you know 32% is overpowered.

 

Looking over someones shoulder does not give you intimate knowledge of a class.Trolling was sucessfull!

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Old 11-12-2006, 07:47 AM   #34
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I dont expect the spell to stay this way . Also was this spell ever determined to lower 32% of the max stats or current stats?. A fixed number is always better. 48 is tremendously low. and in hopes it will be raised.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:45 AM   #35
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figures out to what about a 10% decreace instead of 32% well i know that my 35 defiler on pvp gets owned solo even with this spell at master 1 and purulence is broken and on and on ... but my lvl 70 defiler hit 2196 dps on crap mobs in poets the other night which is fun so fix the ward and i might be happy...
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Old 11-14-2006, 02:04 PM   #36
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If i want to dps I'll play my wizard. really dont give a rats about dps on trash mobs in poets in exchange for a major debuff being nerfed to stupidity. 
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Old 11-14-2006, 04:11 PM   #37
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Well Malignancy was unchanged to the end of beta, still the 48 debuff to all stats.  People want to comment about the total stats it debuffed, but the effectiveness of a debuff is not determined by the total sum of stats.  You just can't compare it like that.  A single mob debuff of 48 to any one stat isn't significant to tier 7 mobs.  Five small debuffs for 5 different stats isn't going to make or break anything.  This debuff in it's current state is very lacking.  Even the recast is off the mark at 20 secs.  Here's hoping for a surprise come tomorrow and at least a change to make this debuff actually have a bite again.
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:26 PM   #38
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lets hope...
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:30 PM   #39
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Vazick wrote:
Complete bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  So what you are saying is that it doesn't even affect Stamina now?
 
Oh well, if they keep this up... this will certainly make the decision to go to Vanguard easier.

Message Edited by Vazick on 11-08-2006 03:06 PM



 Can I have your stuff?

 

I mean come on... yea its crap we hit the nerf bat. But seriously what are you going to do about it? there isn't .... Personally I love my defiler, and as long as we don't have the great nerf the rangers went through then I dont see me changing it any time soon.   In PVE I dont see this as being to much of a big deal.... basically they are only taking out debuff of sta away and lowering it a little bit. /shrug.

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Old 11-14-2006, 09:45 PM   #40
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they arent lowering it a little bit . sure if your are just grouping in a instance non-epic. its about a 12% hit but for raiding where I always kept this spell up its like a 22% hit which is drastic.
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Old 11-15-2006, 04:30 AM   #41
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Kimage wrote:

  In PVE I dont see this as being to much of a big deal.... basically they are only taking out debuff of sta away and lowering it a little bit. /shrug.


Do you raid? How can you say that dropping from 32% of a mobs stats to a crappy 48 of each stat is lowering it a LITTLE bit?Yup, just roll over and bite that pillow SMILEY
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Old 11-15-2006, 05:35 AM   #42
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I am still wondering if there's any actual proof that 32% was doing whatever we would like to think it was doing.
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Old 11-15-2006, 01:12 PM   #43
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Well, others have said it, and I am going to join them in playing the devil's advocate here.  I personally feel that this buff (pre-nerf) was too powerful.  On a solo con it was 32%, and up against the toughest raid mob it was 32%.  I am not saying that I agree with how far they have nerfed the debuff, in fact I think that, like with most nerfs, they have taken it way too far.  Guardians got severely bludgeoned in LU13, if I remember right, SOE went overboard.  They have done the same here.  I think they will come to realize that they have, once again, gone too far, and eventually come to some kind of middle ground.  Pity they nerfed so far, though.
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:52 PM   #44
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the nerf is still there in live, doubled the duration though.....

 

tbh its almost the final straw for me, every spell and every item i own has been nerfed, if they dont want raiders playing they could erm just take out the raid content altogether lol

 

back on topic, if they had just adujsted this one spell i could deal with it, but its on top of everything else that makes it hard to bare. imo just add the 2 debuffs that now do exactly the same thing together, at least i will have another spare slot for a hot key or whatever

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Old 11-16-2006, 12:49 AM   #45
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We griped about our AA line not meaning much for these spells because we thought increasing resistability was not important. We then countered that our spells should last longer instead of having resistability changes and that maybe we should have changes to the spells.
 
What we get - a very nerfed version  of our class defining debuffs that now lasts longer than 36 seconds; it lasts over a minute. Now we can be lazy casting these debuffs that don't really make our class the debuff healer anymore.
 
I remember posting how I was very happy w/ the resistance AA's and we didn't need longer spell times for our debuffs and our debuffs didn't need changing. Now, when will our community learn to shut it when we have things going well? I have no idea if the dev's actually used any of these threads for input on balancing, I do know that the mass majority of you just don't know when to shutup and be happy w/ what we have. Thanks for nothing defiler community; we've once again shown we don't know what we want our class to be.
 
I'll move forward w/ the changes and learn to adjust, should be easy following the MT around as a buff bot and casting wards over and over. Maybe I'll grab a snack or go box my other toons in other zones, certianly I won't have to pay attention to my defiler. I can just hotkey his 2 wards and 3 heals. If I see the tank have orange in his health bar, I'll just hit the number 6 key on my keyboard, thats my big heal hotkey. How sweet will it be to just macro my little debuffs now at the beginning of a fight and not worry about them dropping. Even if they do drop - I don't think anyone will notice now.

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Old 11-16-2006, 01:02 AM   #46
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Quaan wrote:


Kimage wrote:

  In PVE I dont see this as being to much of a big deal.... basically they are only taking out debuff of sta away and lowering it a little bit. /shrug.



Do you raid? How can you say that dropping from 32% of a mobs stats to a crappy 48 of each stat is lowering it a LITTLE bit?
Yup, just roll over and bite that pillow SMILEY


Do I raid?   Yes I do -- on the weekends --- so that means I'm a casual raider.

How can I say that dropping it that much is a LITTLE BIT!!! Because I'm a healer. Plain and simple. My job is to make sure that the rest of my raid stays standing. THEN IF I have the time I will cast debuffs. My job / role in a raid is not to be a debuffer. Thats someone elses job. Do I try my best to keep my debuffs running on the mob. SURE! But I'm not going to sit here and whine about it. And besides they could have changed the spell or they could have made it go down to 10!  If you dont like the fact that it went down that much then dont use it. What I dont like is that it no longer affects sta.

But in the long run what are you gonna do if they dont up the debuff.  I dont like that they squashed it some ( sorry dont like the term nerf. I think its highly over used and therefore a meaningless word. my opinon nothing else. ) either, but the bottom line is that we are dealt with what we are given. I have never been one to complain ( well too much anyways SMILEY ) about what SOE has done to our class. I just really dont see the point. Its called choosing your battles wisely. And to me this isn't a battle worth fighting over.

Thats just my opinion. I respect yours as well. Give me the curtousy of respecting mine.

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Old 11-16-2006, 03:28 AM   #47
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Kimage wrote:


Quaan wrote:


Kimage wrote:

  In PVE I dont see this as being to much of a big deal.... basically they are only taking out debuff of sta away and lowering it a little bit. /shrug.



Do you raid? How can you say that dropping from 32% of a mobs stats to a crappy 48 of each stat is lowering it a LITTLE bit?
Yup, just roll over and bite that pillow SMILEY


Do I raid?   Yes I do -- on the weekends --- so that means I'm a casual raider.

How can I say that dropping it that much is a LITTLE BIT!!! Because I'm a healer. Plain and simple. My job is to make sure that the rest of my raid stays standing. THEN IF I have the time I will cast debuffs. My job / role in a raid is not to be a debuffer. Thats someone elses job. Do I try my best to keep my debuffs running on the mob. SURE! But I'm not going to sit here and whine about it. And besides they could have changed the spell or they could have made it go down to 10!  If you dont like the fact that it went down that much then dont use it. What I dont like is that it no longer affects sta.

But in the long run what are you gonna do if they dont up the debuff.  I dont like that they squashed it some ( sorry dont like the term nerf. I think its highly over used and therefore a meaningless word. my opinon nothing else. ) either, but the bottom line is that we are dealt with what we are given. I have never been one to complain ( well too much anyways SMILEY ) about what SOE has done to our class. I just really dont see the point. Its called choosing your battles wisely. And to me this isn't a battle worth fighting over.

Thats just my opinion. I respect yours as well. Give me the curtousy of respecting mine.




In my opinion if you don't consider yourself a debuffer then you're playing the wrong class. Our debuffs are (at least where) critical to the survival of the tank on tough raid mobs.  Our primary job is to keep the tank alive by damage prevention and that means wards and debuffs, we can heal but other classes do that better.

 

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Old 11-16-2006, 07:12 AM   #48
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Can anyone tell me exactly what this "class defining" really accomplished more in terms of details (i.e. decreased mob DPS by X%) instead of soundbites and generalizations?  I have not heard a single shred of evidence that this is actually a nerf and that the spell now does definitively less.
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Old 11-16-2006, 08:03 PM   #49
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Sokolov wrote:
Can anyone tell me exactly what this "class defining" really accomplished more in terms of details (i.e. decreased mob DPS by X%) instead of soundbites and generalizations?  I have not heard a single shred of evidence that this is actually a nerf and that the spell now does definitively less.



Using General numbers here, but you will get the idea..

Background:
STR Debuff - Lowers mob Melee DPS
AGI Debuff - Lowers mob Avoidance
STA Debuff - Lowers mob Total HP
WIZ Debuff - Lowers mob Resists
INT Debuff - Lowers mob Spell DPS

Say a mob has 200 in each of these stats. (Random number, but fairly good guess). Our previous debuff to all stats of 32% at Master I would lower all of the above stats by 64. The current debuff is 48 Fixed, not a %. So we would be missing 16 points to all stats on this particular mob. Now.. on weaker mobs, the new version is actually better than before, but on stronger mobs (say 300 to all stats) the gap gets larger at 48 points that we debuffed previously that are not being put into effect now.

Summary:
On solo content, this debuff is probably better than it was before, and is gimpifying mobs making solo play better for us than previously. On raid content, this spell is almost not worth casting as the 48 points debuffed is minimal compared to the stats of a mob like Taranax.

 

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Old 11-16-2006, 11:57 PM   #50
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MilkToast wrote:

*sniped to shorten *


Kimage wrote:

Thats just my opinion. I respect yours as well. Give me the curtousy of respecting mine.




In my opinion if you don't consider yourself a debuffer then you're playing the wrong class. Our debuffs are (at least where) critical to the survival of the tank on tough raid mobs.  Our primary job is to keep the tank alive by damage prevention and that means wards and debuffs, we can heal but other classes do that better.



I respect your opinon.

I just dont see my primary role as to be a debuffer. Yes I do debuff during raids - but that is secondary to casting my wards and heals to keep the MT and MA standing.  I didn't say I DO NOT debuff but it is secondary to my wards and heals.  There are other classes whose job it is to debuff... Dirges for instance do a much better job at it than we do. ( there are other classes who have debuffs also, that is just one that I thought of immediately ).

The beauty of this is that each person plays thier class differently.  And again I will state. This is my opinon and I respect yours. Please give me the courtousy to respect mine without attacking me.   Agree to Disagree?

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Old 11-17-2006, 12:21 AM   #51
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This definately is painful.  Just a pure number sequence here:

Mob has 500 of each stat (just for easy numbers) our old debuffs dropped 160 to all stats. 

Now we drop.. 48.  At master.  Umm... yea.

I am curious to see how this affects higher mobs like Tarinax when we go to kill him again - bets are it will make no discernable difference. 

I have been holding my tongue, hoping that this would get re-inspected by the devs, but obviously not.  Other healer classes get brand new spells (root in example) that arent even part of God/AA line.  And we get one of the biggest nerfbats I have seen in a long time.  I have been playing a defiler for a really long time, gone through all the nerfs, but this one makes me sad.  I love my class, in spite of all the nerfings we continually get, but this one makes me just feel tired... tired of SOE and thier BS, tired of all the nerfs while watching other classes getting increases, tired of caring.

This sux - there is no way around that IMO. 

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Old 11-17-2006, 03:53 AM   #52
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Duntzzzz wrote:

Sokolov wrote:
Can anyone tell me exactly what this "class defining" really accomplished more in terms of details (i.e. decreased mob DPS by X%) instead of soundbites and generalizations?  I have not heard a single shred of evidence that this is actually a nerf and that the spell now does definitively less.

Using General numbers here, but you will get the idea..

Background:STR Debuff - Lowers mob Melee DPSAGI Debuff - Lowers mob AvoidanceSTA Debuff - Lowers mob Total HPWIZ Debuff - Lowers mob ResistsINT Debuff - Lowers mob Spell DPS

Say a mob has 200 in each of these stats. (Random number, but fairly good guess). Our previous debuff to all stats of 32% at Master I would lower all of the above stats by 64. The current debuff is 48 Fixed, not a %. So we would be missing 16 points to all stats on this particular mob. Now.. on weaker mobs, the new version is actually better than before, but on stronger mobs (say 300 to all stats) the gap gets larger at 48 points that we debuffed previously that are not being put into effect now.

Summary:On solo content, this debuff is probably better than it was before, and is gimpifying mobs making solo play better for us than previously. On raid content, this spell is almost not worth casting as the 48 points debuffed is minimal compared to the stats of a mob like Taranax.


Those are just assumptions.  Do you have any proof that using Malignacy produced the effects as stated?  The entire point of my question is that one could say, "Well, raid mobs have 1000 of each stat, so this is a huge nerf."  But where is the proof that the mob has X stats?  Where is the proof that the debuff was actually even debuffing 32%?  What is the proof that the 32% is greater than 48?
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Old 11-17-2006, 03:55 AM   #53
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Heck, maybe it SAID 32%, but was only debuffing 32 of each stat.  All I know is, I have seen no proof that Malignancy in its former form actually produces a greater effect than its current form, only the assumption that the spell worked as intended and that mobs had enough stats to debuff and that stats affect mobs in a smiliar fashion to players.
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Old 11-17-2006, 04:19 AM   #54
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And maybe even though it now says it debuffs 48, it is actually buffing the mob 48 to all stats?  It's just pointless to make arguments based on whether it was actually doing what it said, because you will never have proof that any such debuff that involves an unseen number is doing what it says.  Not without dev intervention showing an epic mobs stats before and after.  And since the entire debuff has changed, there is no way to test how it use to work on epic mobs. The closest you can get is to test the shaman dog AA that reduces all atrributes by 12%.   But I can tell you it certainly was debuffing 32% on duels, because those are stats you can see when it's on another player.  And before the change to how stamina debuffs worked, you could clearly see the malignancy spell line took 8% of a mobs health away if you cast it on the pull, which was more than what a 50 stamina debuff would do at that time.  Of course I have no proof of this because it's not something I planned on debating later on.

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Old 11-17-2006, 04:22 AM   #55
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I have done extensive testing on this with both raid mobs and players.  For pure numbers, I got into a duel just to cast debuffs, and talked to the person on vent as I cast each spell (was our raiding MT at the time).  Yes, this spell used to actually debuff 32% to all. 

Now as pure proof as to what it does/did with the mobs?  Total damage done to a mob both debuffing, and not debuffing x mob. 

Parsed out this proved that it did indeed follow the same pattern as what the MT saw when I was debuffing him.  Also it showed in pure damage output.  And various other stats that you could see through a parse.

I recognize that these were good questions Sokolov, as I had them myself at one point in time.  That is why I actually did do the testing.

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Old 11-17-2006, 11:30 AM   #56
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^^^ I concur.
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Old 11-17-2006, 04:46 PM   #57
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Well, if we keep Abhorrence and Malignancy up, that's still a good debuff combined on stats. And I guess the Tier7 M1 is more valuable now as it debuffs more, where previously the lower tier M1's were better due to lower power cost.Just seems they took it too far... never considered defilers so uber to warrant nerfage!
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Old 11-19-2006, 09:31 AM   #58
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B94Cast wrote:

I have done extensive testing on this with both raid mobs and players.  For pure numbers, I got into a duel just to cast debuffs, and talked to the person on vent as I cast each spell (was our raiding MT at the time).  Yes, this spell used to actually debuff 32% to all. 

Now as pure proof as to what it does/did with the mobs?  Total damage done to a mob both debuffing, and not debuffing x mob. 

Parsed out this proved that it did indeed follow the same pattern as what the MT saw when I was debuffing him.  Also it showed in pure damage output.  And various other stats that you could see through a parse.

I recognize that these were good questions Sokolov, as I had them myself at one point in time.  That is why I actually did do the testing.


Thank you =)
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Old 11-20-2006, 08:31 PM   #59
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This nerf is bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and an insult to Defilers everywhere.  OK, granted 32% reduction in all stats is high, a nerf to reduce it to say 15%-10% would have been more resonable and it would have made the spell scalable to the mobs.

 

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Old 11-20-2006, 11:14 PM   #60
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B94Cast,

I'm not clear on what your post is saying. 

Are you saying that there's no noticeable difference in the result (damage from mob) of the debuff from when it was 32% before, and 48 points now?

If not, could you please restate it?  Thanks.

Discoe

 

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