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Old 10-09-2005, 09:40 PM   #1
H3llburn

 
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 This post is intended to foster the valid and supported issuses needed to rebalance the paladins. Please leave out what is right with our class, that is for another post. Most of this is point blank copied from other posts where people brought out logical discussion items. Feel free to post issues with Spells that dont work, and parsed or logged data showing how things are not working  for us.
 1 ) Ranged items of any sort.  the community as a whole feels anything is better then nothing,  Note The devs have had time to upgrade and or add a new Ranged item to the Ranger class, WHERE IS OURS.
 2 ) Res spell with its ultra limited range and high recast timer.  Those are the real issues with that spell, we dont like the res effects, but they can be lived with, the other 2 simply cannot.
 3 ) Balance point for Mitigation / avoidance. It just aint kosher, fix it one way or the other.
 4 ) Power Pool versus HP pool. Our power pool simply is not big enough for the far more limited HP pool,  it should get a boost.
 5 ) Recast times. Hey so maybe we should not be great DPS, but the recast times make it to difficult for us to generate steady dps, and we should at least be allowed to do that.
 6) Wards , Heals , Stuns : with the removal of stuns effecting epic targets no one should ever mistake us for being able to heal or ward ourselves for being placed as a tank in any situation raid wise, they are no longer a valid means of tanking outside of a xp group, and are severly limited in use inside a group.
7) STR and wis both add to power pool , maybe make it one or the other to help focus on our power pools

Message Edited by H3llburner on 10-12-2005 05:27 PM

Message Edited by H3llburner on 10-15-2005 03:25 PM

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Old 10-09-2005, 09:50 PM   #2
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Avoidance/Mitigation:

1.  We have low avoidance (about 25-45%) and it is frontal only.   We must mitigate every blow from behind.

2.  Our mitigation is capped for each tier.   Against sufficiently strong mobs using certain types of attacks our mitigation becomes ineffective or does not work at all.  

3.  A plate armor revamp is needed to make our armor more effective.  Handcrafted armor mitigation is too low.   Legendary is just adequate.   The stats on legendary tier6 armor could use a boost.

That about sums it up for me.

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Old 10-09-2005, 10:10 PM   #3
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A good list, my biggest peeves are with the hit points and power pools.
 
4) Power pool vs HP pool.
 
Currently we have the lowest hit points of all fighter classes. We have less than Warriors and Brawlers because we are supposed to have higher power pool.
 
The reason this becomes troublesome, is because first of all, raw hitpoints will always be more important than power for a tank-class. The difference in power between the classes are also minimal, more so than the hit point diffenrences, especialy considering most of the other fighter-classes can buff their strength more than we can, and can thus surpass our power-pool making us have less hit points and less power.
 
Our offensive stance also gives +int. This does not help our power pool at all, and it doesnt increase the damage of our offensive combat arts.
 
Since we have a high wisdom, my suggestion would be that we should get more power from wisdom than from strength. This would help us alot with power, especialy in defensive stance. It would also help us focus more defensively with our stat-choises without sacrificing power and also make us not so dependant on all 5 attributes like we are now.
 
Other sollutions would be to increase the innate power differences or make our offensive stance give both +str and +int (though I would rather have more power in defensive stance than in offensive).
 
5) I agree completely here, we have way too high recast timers on our skills. The 3 new level 52, 55, 58 skills are all on very high timers. 2 minutes, 5 minutes and 30(?) minutes.
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Old 10-10-2005, 04:09 AM   #4
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----Our offensive stance also gives +int. This does not help our power pool at all, and it doesnt increase the damage of our offensive combat arts. Yes it does.  I have my offense stance at master 1 (tier 5 version) which gives +115 int and it's quite a difference.
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Old 10-10-2005, 04:15 AM   #5
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Rasplorien wrote:
----Our offensive stance also gives +int. This does not help our power pool at all, and it doesnt increase the damage of our offensive combat arts.

Yes it does.  I have my offense stance at master 1 (tier 5 version) which gives +115 int and it's quite a difference.


You missunderstood me. I also have mine at master1, and it gives a nice boost to spell damage and proc damage. But it does absolutely nothing to our combat arts.
 
Strength is what affects our combat arts.
 
Edit: Well, clearing something up before I get flamed :p   the only combat arts that are affected by int, is the sworn strike line (the dot part, not the initial damage) and Destroy Will (Since Glorious Strike is affected my int).

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Old 10-10-2005, 09:10 PM   #6
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Spells effected by Int Divine Judgment Ancient Wrath Sworn Strke Refusal of Grace Decree Let me know if I missed any. That's a lot of spell lines SMILEY

Message Edited by Rasplorien on 10-10-2005 01:20 PM

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Old 10-10-2005, 09:24 PM   #7
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Not sure how bad our offensive stance is compaired to others.  Our defensive stance will give us more power than our offensive.  But I know that we get +34 to Slashing, Crushing, Piercing and guards get like +28 to those skills.  Not really sure which would be better..  The +96 they get to STR, or the INT / +6 we get.  I'm guessing it would even out. The rez spell is horrid now.  Last raid I fizzled 9 times in row...  First 4 fizzles were with autoattack on...  Last 5 were with it off.  The range is just so limited now.  With the climbable walls, I've had some group mates die in strange locations that I can't rez due to range (eg: Silent City).  It is so hard in a raid to find the person's corpse. Remember, there are 24 people and a huge mob blocking view etc.   Also would be nice to have an option to turn OFF the confim box.  There's just this delay from casting rez, info being passed to other client, other client clicking ok, info back to my client, cast beginning....  Say, when raid starts, everyone set option to turn off rez confirm.  That would be nice.  The one min timer is really too long.  15 or 20 sec would be better. Also noticed that Unwavering Faith doesn't stack with other fighters.  Seems that all fighter classes get the same line.  Like zerker has one that will increase their AGI while target gets a 33% chance to avoid.  They don't stack if I cast mine on him, etc.  Usually some that doesn't need it in group gets it. I also think Gift of Armor should get a boost in stats.  Say +400 to target instead of 243 (at adept 1).  While it's still a decent buff, I think an increase would make it more needed. Our ward is nice, but cross raid groups would be sweet.  Not likely, but it would still be nice. Casting timers are a tad too high on Ward, RoG, and Decree.  It take a bit away from the "flow" of fighter combat. I get the idea of being able to heal vs. having more HPs.  So I'm not even going to suggest an increase there.  But what good are heals when tanking?  They get interruped 50% of the time. Not being able to stun epics stinks, but it didn't just happen to our class. Ranged items are needed.  We really only have one ranged pull spell that can be casted on the move.  I like to use that one in combat as well for the interrupt...  Having something other than a spell is really needed now.  I'm usually the puller if there is more than one tank in a group, I have a knack for it.  I can range interrupt it, then stun on way back to group.  Waiting for spell timers can be a real bugger.  All other tank classes can just hit that ranged attack button.  Also, having more stats like other fighter classes would be very nice SMILEY  It's been 4 months since we heard it was "being looked at".  IMHO crusaders should get the item, not other classes (mages / priests).  We're the only class that is missing out on them form a balance point of view.  At this point, I'd even take a bow.  Should be hard to give us that ability...  It's been done with Piercing weapons.  Oh and if you do, please give us a maxed out ranged skill...  My piercing is still at 132 of 265.  I go kill grey ^^^ mobs once in a while, but talk about boring! On a positive note, amends is great.  Sigil is great.  So far I haven't had any issues with mitigation or avoidance, but I hardly ever solo anymore. EDIT:  We get more power from a STR potion (+35 STR) than we do from +96 to wisdom from defensive stance.  Think it's like +78 more power with a +35 STR vs a +96 WIS.

Message Edited by RiotActer on 10-10-2005 01:27 PM

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Old 10-10-2005, 09:33 PM   #8
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------- I get the idea of being able to heal vs. having more HPs.  So I'm not even going to suggest an increase there.  But what good are heals when tanking?  They get interruped 50% of the time. If you heal 50% of the time and your heal averages 600 HP at level 50 and you pull off 3 heals in one fight, that's effectively you having 1800 more HP.  I don't have a lot of problems pulling off my heals/wards in big fights - best thing to do is to use a stun followed by your heal or ward.  In epic situations obviously this is different.
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Old 10-10-2005, 09:40 PM   #9
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If you heal 50% of the time and your heal averages 600 HP at level 50 and you pull off 3 heals in one fight, that's effectively you having 1800 more HP.  I don't have a lot of problems pulling off my heals/wards in big fights - best thing to do is to use a stun followed by your heal or ward.  In epic situations obviously this is different.

Totally agree.  Epic's is where I have the real issue.
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Old 10-10-2005, 09:54 PM   #10
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RiotActer wrote:

If you heal 50% of the time and your heal averages 600 HP at level 50 and you pull off 3 heals in one fight, that's effectively you having 1800 more HP.  I don't have a lot of problems pulling off my heals/wards in big fights - best thing to do is to use a stun followed by your heal or ward.  In epic situations obviously this is different.

Totally agree.  Epic's is where I have the real issue.

agree as well ... group situations i'm not that worried about ... our situation in raids is even worse than it was ... we've gone from rez-bot to cheer-leader ...
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Old 10-11-2005, 02:57 AM   #11
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I haven't been the MT yet being that I'm not 60 - but here's my thoughts: Against magic epics, we will be the optimal MT.  Our base HP will be lower, but we will resist much more than other tank classes, not just divine/magic but in general anything since our defense stance combined with crusade gives us a ton of resists. My guild learned the other night that different tanks are going to be required for different raids - or so we assume - we actually had a bruiser tank an epic last night and it went beautifully. When we're not the MT we have plenty we can do - put us in a melee-DPS group and we provide them with STR, resists, and a proc that does double damage to undead.  Short a healer? Our heal definetly helps the fight.  True we can't ward raid-wide but we can certainly heal - this is majorly effective when every healer is stuck healing the MT and someone gets smacked for 90% of their health - they won't be expecting a healer to heal them because the healers are busy - so we can help out. If we get hit, we don't need a heal, we simply use Sacrament and our heal and we're kicking again - so we save people trouble there.  Being a MT we definetly will hold agro better than most other classes - Casting Amends on one our groupmates and pulling with Sigil is an awesome way to gain major agro at the beginning(just recast Amends when Sigil dies out).  In my experience, taunts were being resisted a lot on a level 61 epic being tanked by a 60 zerker - with Amends, we don't have to worry as much because it's not actually a direct taunt.  We might not be effective against hard hitting physical mobs, but should a caster come our way casting a smite of some sort (the tree in Living Tombs smacked me for 10k with a divine attack while I was in offense stance and 6 levels lower than it lol), we will work very well. It's also important to get your resists even higher - buy TWO sets of jewelry - one for STR/STA/AGI and one for INT/WIS/STA - this way if you're the MT you can throw on your INT/WIS/STA gear and boost your resists even HIGHER AND get more damage out from your spells. Any thoughts?
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:14 AM   #12
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Rasplorien wrote:
I haven't been the MT yet being that I'm not 60 - but here's my thoughts:

Against magic epics, we will be the optimal MT.  Our base HP will be lower, but we will resist much more than other tank classes, not just divine/magic but in general anything since our defense stance combined with crusade gives us a ton of resists.

My guild learned the other night that different tanks are going to be required for different raids - or so we assume - we actually had a bruiser tank an epic last night and it went beautifully.

When we're not the MT we have plenty we can do - put us in a melee-DPS group and we provide them with STR, resists, and a proc that does double damage to undead.  Short a healer? Our heal definetly helps the fight.  True we can't ward raid-wide but we can certainly heal - this is majorly effective when every healer is stuck healing the MT and someone gets smacked for 90% of their health - they won't be expecting a healer to heal them because the healers are busy - so we can help out.

If we get hit, we don't need a heal, we simply use Sacrament and our heal and we're kicking again - so we save people trouble there. 

Being a MT we definetly will hold agro better than most other classes - Casting Amends on one our groupmates and pulling with Sigil is an awesome way to gain major agro at the beginning(just recast Amends when Sigil dies out).  In my experience, taunts were being resisted a lot on a level 61 epic being tanked by a 60 zerker - with Amends, we don't have to worry as much because it's not actually a direct taunt.  We might not be effective against hard hitting physical mobs, but should a caster come our way casting a smite of some sort (the tree in Living Tombs smacked me for 10k with a divine attack while I was in offense stance and 6 levels lower than it lol), we will work very well.

It's also important to get your resists even higher - buy TWO sets of jewelry - one for STR/STA/AGI and one for INT/WIS/STA - this way if you're the MT you can throw on your INT/WIS/STA gear and boost your resists even HIGHER AND get more damage out from your spells.

Any thoughts?


It is a bit off topic to bring up what is good with the class in this thread SMILEY   re-read the OP SMILEY
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:19 AM   #13
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How about an offensive stance for my level 27 Paladin ?

please  SMILEY

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Old 10-11-2005, 05:28 PM   #14
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Rasplorien wrote:------- I get the idea of being able to heal vs. having more HPs.  So I'm not even going to suggest an increase there.  But what good are heals when tanking?  They get interruped 50% of the time. If you heal 50% of the time and your heal averages 600 HP at level 50 and you pull off 3 heals in one fight, that's effectively you having 1800 more HP.  I don't have a lot of problems pulling off my heals/wards in big fights - best thing to do is to use a stun followed by your heal or ward.  In epic situations obviously this is different.

I think the point is that it is not reliable. You can heal and get interrupted but during that whole time you aren't able to attack or do anything else. It is an issue because they have a long recast, then you get stunned or stifled in some fights where you have to go for nearly 15 seconds before you can cast. Permanent HP doesn't have that problem, its always there.Have you forgotten the times where you died because you were stunned and stifled and couldnt even get lay on hands off? Yeah, you get what i mean now.
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Old 10-11-2005, 06:23 PM   #15
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crowell00 wrote:

How about an offensive stance for my level 27 Paladin ?

please  SMILEY


yah, they've said they are working on that ... don't know when though.
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Old 10-11-2005, 06:29 PM   #16
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Queen Alexandria wrote:

Rasplorien wrote:------- I get the idea of being able to heal vs. having more HPs.  So I'm not even going to suggest an increase there.  But what good are heals when tanking?  They get interruped 50% of the time. If you heal 50% of the time and your heal averages 600 HP at level 50 and you pull off 3 heals in one fight, that's effectively you having 1800 more HP.  I don't have a lot of problems pulling off my heals/wards in big fights - best thing to do is to use a stun followed by your heal or ward.  In epic situations obviously this is different.

I think the point is that it is not reliable. You can heal and get interrupted but during that whole time you aren't able to attack or do anything else. It is an issue because they have a long recast, then you get stunned or stifled in some fights where you have to go for nearly 15 seconds before you can cast. Permanent HP doesn't have that problem, its always there.Have you forgotten the times where you died because you were stunned and stifled and couldnt even get lay on hands off? Yeah, you get what i mean now.
Not to mention when you are running away from mobs, and can't cast our ward while moving anymore....only to die from a dot SMILEY I really miss being able to ward on the move....
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Old 10-11-2005, 06:54 PM   #17
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Belgorim wrote:
A good list, my biggest peeves are with the hit points and power pools.
 
4) Power pool vs HP pool.
 
Currently we have the lowest hit points of all fighter classes. We have less than Warriors and Brawlers because we are supposed to have higher power pool.
 
The reason this becomes troublesome, is because first of all, raw hitpoints will always be more important than power for a tank-class. The difference in power between the classes are also minimal, more so than the hit point diffenrences, especialy considering most of the other fighter-classes can buff their strength more than we can, and can thus surpass our power-pool making us have less hit points and less power.

This is my biggest gripe with our class right now, because it makes us ineffective main tanks. And I think, as plate wearers, we should be one of the premiere MT classes. We need a significant boost to our power pool, we need more hit points, and we need a faster casting ward. After all, our ward is supposed to 'make up the difference', but right now with the long recast timer and susceptibility to interruption, it is unreliable. Raw hit points, on the other hand, are VERY reliable... And that's what I find blatantly unfair.
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Old 10-13-2005, 04:29 AM   #18
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 What do people think of the group heals cast time and recast, balanced or in need of a tweek?
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Old 10-13-2005, 04:37 AM   #19
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I like our heals/wards. I think they are great especially when upgraded.  The only problem is that if we are ment to depend on the so much to make up for hp loss, should our power pool not be more in line with healers?  Healers got double power pool size than we do and essentially do marginally lower dps.  While i like the abilities we have for the most part i would definitly like to no run out of power every time i get 1 single add just trying to stay in decent health. heal/ward a few times and cast a few CAs and that power bar looks kind of empty. 
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Old 10-13-2005, 03:31 PM   #20
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As for group heals....well I thought they were going to be a huge upgrade, but I dont' think I have used them more then a handfull of times since they were put in. Pretty much the power / casting time, just makes it very easily interrupted. I do really enjoy our new ward (Demonstration of Devotion), and at Adept 3 (910 ward) it really has helped me out with soloing a lot.  Even duoing, myself and another Pally were able to go through L52/53 ^^^ mobs with using it. (albeight taking forever, since our dps is well....paladin dps..lol)
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Old 10-13-2005, 07:06 PM   #21
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Belgorim wrote:

Rasplorien wrote:I haven't been the MT yet being that I'm not 60 - but here's my thoughts:Against magic epics, we will be the optimal MT.  Our base HP will be lower, but we will resist much more than other tank classes, not just divine/magic but in general anything since our defense stance combined with crusade gives us a ton of resists.My guild learned the other night that different tanks are going to be required for different raids - or so we assume - we actually had a bruiser tank an epic last night and it went beautifully.When we're not the MT we have plenty we can do - put us in a melee-DPS group and we provide them with STR, resists, and a proc that does double damage to undead.  Short a healer? Our heal definetly helps the fight.  True we can't ward raid-wide but we can certainly heal - this is majorly effective when every healer is stuck healing the MT and someone gets smacked for 90% of their health - they won't be expecting a healer to heal them because the healers are busy - so we can help out.If we get hit, we don't need a heal, we simply use Sacrament and our heal and we're kicking again - so we save people trouble there. Being a MT we definetly will hold agro better than most other classes - Casting Amends on one our groupmates and pulling with Sigil is an awesome way to gain major agro at the beginning(just recast Amends when Sigil dies out).  In my experience, taunts were being resisted a lot on a level 61 epic being tanked by a 60 zerker - with Amends, we don't have to worry as much because it's not actually a direct taunt.  We might not be effective against hard hitting physical mobs, but should a caster come our way casting a smite of some sort (the tree in Living Tombs smacked me for 10k with a divine attack while I was in offense stance and 6 levels lower than it lol), we will work very well.It's also important to get your resists even higher - buy TWO sets of jewelry - one for STR/STA/AGI and one for INT/WIS/STA - this way if you're the MT you can throw on your INT/WIS/STA gear and boost your resists even HIGHER AND get more damage out from your spells.Any thoughts?

It is a bit off topic to bring up what is good with the class in this thread SMILEY   re-read the OP SMILEY

Just some friendly counter-arguments SMILEY I love the paladin class.  I love that if I lose agro, I can not only taunt to get it back, but heal/ward the person who stole it, keeping them alive longer and generating hate hehe.  I'm not sure what I'd tweak - I think if I had to focus on one thing I'd say reduce the casting time of our Ward to 1 second - since it has a long recast compared to our heal, it would be nice if it were more reliable in combat.  That extra second we wait to cast it is usually when I find myself getting interrupted.
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Old 10-13-2005, 07:09 PM   #22
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Regarding our ward, does anyone else fizzle on that a lot? I don't really fizzle on anything except for the ward when I try to sneak one of those in while being MT I fizzle like 2 out of 3 times and then my taunts are back up so no time to ward SMILEY
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Old 10-13-2005, 08:35 PM   #23
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Rasplorien wrote:

Just some friendly counter-arguments SMILEY I love the paladin class.  I love that if I lose agro, I can not only taunt to get it back, but heal/ward the person who stole it, keeping them alive longer and generating hate hehe.  I'm not sure what I'd tweak - I think if I had to focus on one thing I'd say reduce the casting time of our Ward to 1 second - since it has a long recast compared to our heal, it would be nice if it were more reliable in combat.  That extra second we wait to cast it is usually when I find myself getting interrupted.


Yeah, I understand where you are coming from... but the OP specificaly stated that this thread was for things we thought where wrong with the class.
 
I agree that there are alot of things right with the class, and there are alot of things that I love. But the thread was to focus on the negative parts so we could get those fixed.
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Old 10-14-2005, 03:23 AM   #24
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Yes just trying to get people to get down to the basics so that we can at least attempt to get somone to look at us and help us out over here. I have seen one dev/ csr post here compared to several on other class's , and just want to make sure we are not forgotten.  I dont think we want the moon, but My god at least give us whats fair.
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Old 10-14-2005, 11:37 AM   #25
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Correct me if I am rong but isent our devine damage increaed by int? if so then nearly all our spells/arts are increased by int.

I would agree on the rez i would like to see no recast on it seeing we have to be right on top of the person anyways.  Or more range and keep the recast.  But then it would be like every preist rez which they probably do not want SMILEY.

My biggest peev also is the hp vs power pool.  I do not mind haveing the lowest hp out of all the tanks if we ACTUALY HAD the highest power pool but we do not. I see guards and zerker every day with more power than me, same level or even lower. I am in all cobalt and have almost all rare jewelery. at lvl 52.  Haveing low hp isent bad if we get a 250 to 300 power boost then atleast we can well make up for it with our heals and wards, which i prefer to use tanking just to get more agro.

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Old 10-14-2005, 03:52 PM   #26
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daboa wrote:

Correct me if I am rong but isent our devine damage increaed by int? if so then nearly all our spells/arts are increased by int.


You are wrong :p   All of our damage skills do divine damage. This includes all spells and all combat arts (Combat arts are the ones under combat arts in spellbook SMILEY). The only ones that are affected by int, is the procs and spells. The combat arts are mostly unaffected by int (some exeptions, like the dot-part of oath strike line).
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Old 10-16-2005, 02:27 AM   #27
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Going to add this in here, By reports the level 52 ancient spell is broken. This needs attention as well as the stacking Issues with the Amends line of spells.
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Old 10-16-2005, 10:16 AM   #28
Rochir

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daboa wrote:

Correct me if I am rong but isent our devine damage increaed by int? if so then nearly all our spells/arts are increased by int.

I would agree on the rez i would like to see no recast on it seeing we have to be right on top of the person anyways.  Or more range and keep the recast.  But then it would be like every preist rez which they probably do not want SMILEY.

My biggest peev also is the hp vs power pool.  I do not mind haveing the lowest hp out of all the tanks if we ACTUALY HAD the highest power pool but we do not. I see guards and zerker every day with more power than me, same level or even lower. I am in all cobalt and have almost all rare jewelery. at lvl 52.  Haveing low hp isent bad if we get a 250 to 300 power boost then atleast we can well make up for it with our heals and wards, which i prefer to use tanking just to get more agro.




Our divine damage is increaste by str.
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Old 10-16-2005, 09:17 PM   #29
Rasplori

 
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Ahh I have something actually - Our Self-Heal (Sacrament) line - It is mostly power-inefficient compared to our regular heal AND if it's really supposed to be used in self-emergencies, why is there a THREE second cast time? I can almost never get this spell off when I really need it.  I believe the old cast time was 1 second, at least for one of the spells in this line.  This is like a mini self-Lay Hands and if it's supposed to be used in danger, the cast time needs to be reduced.
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Old 10-17-2005, 12:06 AM   #30
Belgor

 
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Rasplorien wrote:
Ahh I have something actually - Our Self-Heal (Sacrament) line - It is mostly power-inefficient compared to our regular heal AND if it's really supposed to be used in self-emergencies, why is there a THREE second cast time? I can almost never get this spell off when I really need it.  I believe the old cast time was 1 second, at least for one of the spells in this line.  This is like a mini self-Lay Hands and if it's supposed to be used in danger, the cast time needs to be reduced.


I agree 100% with this one SMILEY

I do remember it being 1s the first time I got this as a low level paladin.

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