Valid issues to be fixed for the Paladin Class - Page 2

mryankee · 10-17-2005, 01:22 AM

as in eq1. palys are the red headed step children. they made us unwanted in eq1 , giving our aggro status to the whiney warriors who staged a sit in. we couldnt solo anything and had to group but had nothing to offer. again in eq2 they have made us feel unwanted. oh sure, we can solo. and maybe a group might need us for a rez but they have made us the weakest tank by far. the icing on the cake is no range slot item. i dont care what it is, bow, idol, symbol, dollie , we need something in that slot to help us bridge the gap between palys and the other tanks. plus 14 to 3 stats plus resists is a lot to give up at lvl53. i am not going to hold my breath tho. the folks running soe have shown their dislike for our class. i doubt if any dev plays one. i would love for one to show up here and prove me wrong.

Queen Alexandria · 10-17-2005, 07:37 PM

I really don't know where to start as a viable suggestion to fix the issue with our heals/wards closing the gap between warriors and crusaders. We are told that crusaders should be able to perform the same task as a warrior as a tank because of our wards and heals, but then when it comes to trying to understand how we can accomplish this, it is very confusing.First off, we are supposed to negate some damage with our heals to make up with the lower health pool that warriors have. Their inability to heal themselves or ward some damage is made up by the simple fact that they can mitigate a bit (ver small margin) better and have a larger health pool that results in a better chance to take larger hits without dying.We all know while killing epic encounters that during most of the fight, our ability to cast any type of healing or ward spells are nearly impossible for the fact that we will be stunned and stifled for long durations. Under any circumstances, the fight usually begins with our ward on, quickly that is gone and we are left to multiple recasts that are interrupted or do not work because of stifle/stuns/interrupts that we are receiving from the epic fight. During this time of concentration to get our wards off, it is easy to forget to taunt, but given the fact that taunts take half a second to go off, that is not an issue. The problem with this scenario is that we are left with an unreliable means of negating damage from an end-game perspective. If we are indeed meant to be able to negate damage in combat with our spells then this means is unacceptable for the fact that it is highly unachievable or sometimes even impossible to accomplish.Solutions:Wards: Do something to our ward, ATLEAST, which makes it uninterruptable and castable while stunned. Reduce the casting time significantly and recast time. This ability to rely on a ward while fighting epic battles will give us the edge to negate the fact that we have a lower health pool. If these changes make our ward too good, give us a new spell line of self wards from which only the Paladin can benefit from, it can be made to work only when you take damage from an epic encounter. You can even reduce the amount of time it lasts on the Paladin like a short duration buff. The use of our wards are very limited since they can only be cast within our group and not throughout the raid.Heals: I consider healing an alternative to negating damage if our ward is unavailable. The only problems here remain the same as the above. We are left totally in the dark when engaged in combat for the simple reason that it is very easy to interrupt our healing process with interrupts and stuns. Our ability to cast in combat is hindered so much that it is nearly impossible to even cast our Divine Touch (instant heal ability, no casting time, lay on hands spell line) in critical moments when it would be needed. I cannot even begin to remember the failure rate for the instances where my hit points dropped in the red from a single blow and i tried to heal myself or divine touch without dying. Given the success to counter with a heal, the encounter might have died before i did.Lay on Hands (Divine Touch): This line of emergency healing should never under any circumstances be interrupted, stifled or unavailable while stunned. It's a favor by our gods to replenish our health in a moment of desperation. There is no further explanation needed to why this spell should be useable under any circumstances. I think the gods will punish me further if i cursed one more time because of the inability to call forth their help.I hope this explains our situation a bit more clearly and i am open for any critism. If you have anything to add, please do not hesitate. If i knew the Shadowknight class a bit more, i would be willing to post a few suggestions to help their situation to accomplish their role. It seems that every shadowknight i have spoken to has chosen to be one because they wanted to assume an offensive role versus the defensive role of a Paladin, and none of them had aspirations to tank epic encounters (tell me i am wrong).

Yrield · 10-17-2005, 09:20 PM

Queen Alexandria wrote:I really don't know where to start as a viable suggestion to fix the issue with our heals/wards closing the gap between warriors and crusaders. We are told that crusaders should be able to perform the same task as a warrior as a tank because of our wards and heals, but then when it comes to trying to understand how we can accomplish this, it is very confusing.First off, we are supposed to negate some damage with our heals to make up with the lower health pool that warriors have. Their inability to heal themselves or ward some damage is made up by the simple fact that they can mitigate a bit (ver small margin) better and have a larger health pool that results in a better chance to take larger hits without dying.We all know while killing epic encounters that during most of the fight, our ability to cast any type of healing or ward spells are nearly impossible for the fact that we will be stunned and stifled for long durations. Under any circumstances, the fight usually begins with our ward on, quickly that is gone and we are left to multiple recasts that are interrupted or do not work because of stifle/stuns/interrupts that we are receiving from the epic fight. During this time of concentration to get our wards off, it is easy to forget to taunt, but given the fact that taunts take half a second to go off, that is not an issue. The problem with this scenario is that we are left with an unreliable means of negating damage from an end-game perspective. If we are indeed meant to be able to negate damage in combat with our spells then this means is unacceptable for the fact that it is highly unachievable or sometimes even impossible to accomplish.Solutions:Wards: Do something to our ward, ATLEAST, which makes it uninterruptable and castable while stunned. Reduce the casting time significantly and recast time. This ability to rely on a ward while fighting epic battles will give us the edge to negate the fact that we have a lower health pool. If these changes make our ward too good, give us a new spell line of self wards from which only the Paladin can benefit from, it can be made to work only when you take damage from an epic encounter. You can even reduce the amount of time it lasts on the Paladin like a short duration buff. The use of our wards are very limited since they can only be cast within our group and not throughout the raid.Heals: I consider healing an alternative to negating damage if our ward is unavailable. The only problems here remain the same as the above. We are left totally in the dark when engaged in combat for the simple reason that it is very easy to interrupt our healing process with interrupts and stuns. Our ability to cast in combat is hindered so much that it is nearly impossible to even cast our Divine Touch (instant heal ability, no casting time, lay on hands spell line) in critical moments when it would be needed. I cannot even begin to remember the failure rate for the instances where my hit points dropped in the red from a single blow and i tried to heal myself or divine touch without dying. Given the success to counter with a heal, the encounter might have died before i did.Lay on Hands (Divine Touch): This line of emergency healing should never under any circumstances be interrupted, stifled or unavailable while stunned. It's a favor by our gods to replenish our health in a moment of desperation. There is no further explanation needed to why this spell should be useable under any circumstances. I think the gods will punish me further if i cursed one more time because of the inability to call forth their help.I hope this explains our situation a bit more clearly and i am open for any critism. If you have anything to add, please do not hesitate. If i knew the Shadowknight class a bit more, i would be willing to post a few suggestions to help their situation to accomplish their role. It seems that every shadowknight i have spoken to has chosen to be one because they wanted to assume an offensive role versus the defensive role of a Paladin, and none of them had aspirations to tank epic encounters (tell me i am wrong).

Interupt is the biggest design flaw of the class, we are a class designed to cast "under fire" with no tools (reliable at least) to acheive it. Before LU13 it was no big deal, the average trash yard mob almost never used stifle/stun attack... Post-LU13 its an other story, I am for at least HALF of the fight stunned/stiffled/rooted/crippled, so how im supposed to defend myself if i can't cast at all ? To add insult to the injury, SOE in his infinite wisdom give a HUGE focus buff to the mages, I keep asking myself, "why sideline caster get a focus buff when THE melee caster dont get one ?" The 2nd major flaw in the current game situation, defensive class like paladin, guardian, templar, mystic have no real reason to exist, we are defensive class with no edge in defense and with a pigeonholed offense. I never started a Paladin to be a DPS-machine, but to be one of the most defensive class of the most defensive archetype. So I give up DPS to get nothing in return ? that not the kind of "flavor" I was looking for when I started. Last point, Paladin aka "tank vs caster", We need a way to know our % of spell avoidance, either by mousing over Wisdom or Soe need to adds something in the persona window. If I am supposed to tank caster mob, I want to know how effective I am. We are in the dark right now, I know more wisdom I have more chance i have to avoid a spell but that all. I dont know if 229 wisdom give me 8% or 55% chance to avoid a spell, I dont know if 5pts of WIS give 1% spell avoidance. I need to know those thing if my role is to tank caster mob and its just fair to lets us know how effective we are versus arcarne damage since we give up on physical mitigation AND avoidance to get arcane mitigation and avoidance

djhbeek · 10-17-2005, 09:41 PM

Yrieldom wrote:Last point, Paladin aka "tank vs caster", We need a way to know our % of spell avoidance, either by mousing over Wisdom or Soe need to adds something in the persona window. If I am supposed to tank caster mob, I want to know how effective I am. We are in the dark right now, I know more wisdom I have more chance i have to avoid a spell but that all. I dont know if 229 wisdom give me 8% or 55% chance to avoid a spell, I dont know if 5pts of WIS give 1% spell avoidance. I need to know those thing if my role is to tank caster mob and its just fair to lets us know how effective we are versus arcarne damage since we give up on physical mitigation AND avoidance to get arcane mitigation and avoidance

Completely agree with this last point. Since SOE's combat revamp has yielded a combat system that is still broken, just in different ways (the agi nerf has basically been un-done) and in some cases the SAME ways (watch a mage solo sometime), i have a hard time trusting that they actually hit their mark on the resists thing. Some type of way to verify it's effectiveness is needed ...

MeridianR · 10-18-2005, 04:24 PM

djhbeek wrote:
Yrieldom wrote:Last point, Paladin aka "tank vs caster", We need a way to know our % of spell avoidance, either by mousing over Wisdom or Soe need to adds something in the persona window. If I am supposed to tank caster mob, I want to know how effective I am. We are in the dark right now, I know more wisdom I have more chance i have to avoid a spell but that all. I dont know if 229 wisdom give me 8% or 55% chance to avoid a spell, I dont know if 5pts of WIS give 1% spell avoidance. I need to know those thing if my role is to tank caster mob and its just fair to lets us know how effective we are versus arcarne damage since we give up on physical mitigation AND avoidance to get arcane mitigation and avoidance
Completely agree with this last point. Since SOE's combat revamp has yielded a combat system that is still broken, just in different ways (the agi nerf has basically been un-done) and in some cases the SAME ways (watch a mage solo sometime), i have a hard time trusting that they actually hit their mark on the resists thing. Some type of way to verify it's effectiveness is needed ...

Don't let mage's see this, or you will get flamed for saying they are overpowered....... There response to being able to kill Yellow/ Oranage heroics is that they die a lot......well my response is I die all the time, but hey what do I know. Watch any class with Crowd Control solo post revamp, and then someone explain to me how SoE balanced the game.... SMILEY

Benvolio · 10-18-2005, 05:32 PM

It is pretty plain to see that the combat system is not balanced and never will be. (It is an extremely hard thing to do, but eq2 isn't even close.) SOE has repeatedly denounced the paladin class and given us one [Removed for Content] character after another. So far there has been nothing new here.

As a paladin I can not solo a triple up mob. It is my understanding that others can't either so no big deal. The problem is with the rate I can gain exp. On average I can make about 4% per hour killing undead and completing quests at the same time. My other fighter counterparts in te guild make around 10% per hour soloing. This forces me into groups to have any chanc to keep up with the guild. However, we add very little to the group currently. The reduced HP prevent us from effectively tanking group level mobs due to the high damage we take. This may be an issue with mitigation, avoidance, or HP but it must be addressed. I have seen scouts able to last longer infront of melee based mobs than a paladin.

The empty range slot in our equipment is devistating. Losing an additional 150-200 HP and power compaired to any other class is just sad. SOE knows it is wrong but they just can't seem to find the time to fix it. I personally believe they don't care.

The stuns are useless on epic mobs. This is broken for all classes and not just paladins.

The amends and sigil of heroism is currently bugged. It has been ackowledged on another thread. Unfortunately, I don't see this getting fixed any time soon. Furthermore, why is there no upgrade to the amends line? Is this just going to be a dead spell line?

The change to the rez is truely unreal. This was about the only thing I was able to add to a raiding guild and now the range on this is laughable and the confirmation box is just annoying. Not to mention the recast time is huge.

Really, we are a poor tank for any end level gaming to say the least. We are not able to rez as often or as effectively as we once did. We have been reduced to extra damage on a raid with some healing. Taking any other class on the raid would be a benefit. So while your at it why not just make us a leather based class? Oh, and maybe make boots unequipable for us as well.

Yrield · 10-18-2005, 09:02 PM

Test update notes, oct 18

Paladin changes:- Courageous Wrath, Implacable Wrath, and Unyielding Will are now classified as Combat Arts and provide a Strength bonus.- Redemption can now be canceled by the recipient of the spell.

Belgor · 10-18-2005, 09:15 PM

Yrieldom wrote:
Test update notes, oct 18

Paladin changes:
- Courageous Wrath, Implacable Wrath, and Unyielding Will are now classified as Combat Arts and provide a Strength bonus.
- Redemption can now be canceled by the recipient of the spell.

I hope that includes Unyielding Wrath and Relentless Wrath also SMILEY

But I am worried that shadowknights do not seem to have got the same change on their stance, though I guess we will see soon what the change actualy means.

Yrield · 10-18-2005, 09:24 PM

Belgorim wrote:

Yrieldom wrote:Test update notes, oct 18
Paladin changes:- Courageous Wrath, Implacable Wrath, and Unyielding Will are now classified as Combat Arts and provide a Strength bonus.- Redemption can now be canceled by the recipient of the spell.

I hope that includes Unyielding Wrath and Relentless Wrath also

But I am worried that shadowknights do not seem to have got the same change on their stance, though I guess we will see soon what the change actualy means.

Unyielding Will look like a typo error and should be Unyielding Wrath (Unyielding Will = Lvl35 warrior) SK's Dark sword line is now a CAs too, so i guess they get a STR bonus too !

Queen Alexandria · 10-18-2005, 11:04 PM

Benvolioeq wrote:
It is pretty plain to see that the combat system is not balanced and never will be. (It is an extremely hard thing to do, but eq2 isn't even close.) SOE has repeatedly denounced the paladin class and given us one [Removed for Content] character after another. So far there has been nothing new here.

As a paladin I can not solo a triple up mob. It is my understanding that others can't either so no big deal. The problem is with the rate I can gain exp. On average I can make about 4% per hour killing undead and completing quests at the same time. My other fighter counterparts in te guild make around 10% per hour soloing. This forces me into groups to have any chanc to keep up with the guild. However, we add very little to the group currently. The reduced HP prevent us from effectively tanking group level mobs due to the high damage we take. This may be an issue with mitigation, avoidance, or HP but it must be addressed. I have seen scouts able to last longer infront of melee based mobs than a paladin.

The empty range slot in our equipment is devistating. Losing an additional 150-200 HP and power compaired to any other class is just sad. SOE knows it is wrong but they just can't seem to find the time to fix it. I personally believe they don't care.

The stuns are useless on epic mobs. This is broken for all classes and not just paladins.

The amends and sigil of heroism is currently bugged. It has been ackowledged on another thread. Unfortunately, I don't see this getting fixed any time soon. Furthermore, why is there no upgrade to the amends line? Is this just going to be a dead spell line?

The change to the rez is truely unreal. This was about the only thing I was able to add to a raiding guild and now the range on this is laughable and the confirmation box is just annoying. Not to mention the recast time is huge.

Really, we are a poor tank for any end level gaming to say the least. We are not able to rez as often or as effectively as we once did. We have been reduced to extra damage on a raid with some healing. Taking any other class on the raid would be a benefit. So while your at it why not just make us a leather based class? Oh, and maybe make boots unequipable for us as well.

First off, I can solo tripple up encounters, they have to be green or large encounters that i can AE. Second, exp is situational, i was at one point getting 10% an hour soloing undead in silent city. Our damage against undead is very good and we can kill really fast. On the other hand, i have grouped and gotten better exp than that. Third, raid buffs, potions and our buffs put us at the same mitigation as any guardian out there, the big determining factor remains that most guardians have better gear/experience. Some guardians even argue that we are better tanks because of our wisdom, since we can achieve the same mitigation our wisdom sets us ahead. But we are not meant for every encounter, neither are Guardians... our stances give us magic and divine mitigation, theirs gives them fire and whatever else. Our stances give us the ability to tank certain encounters better which sets us appart.Fourth, ranged slot, now that is a valid issue. It's been talked about, told it was going to get fixed but seems low on the priority since it has been nearly a year now that it has been broken.Fifth, stuns on epic trivializes the encounters. This has already been brought up that chain stunning an encounter can really take the challenge out of the whole fight, where is the fun in this?Next... amends being broken because of sigil is a fairly new bug, id give it more time to see if its going to get fixed. Rez is a bit rediculous, have to stand on top of the corpse to cast it, and not only that, you have to stay there if the person doesnt click the box for a while, restricting you to that area. As far as being useful on a raid, i like the idea of intercepting attacks for the main tank, its a great concept but very flawed at the moment since it does not get mitigated and you take the full hit for what its worth (some encounters hit for 8k damage consistently, no one can intercept that and live, unless you have divine favor, but still its a risk).

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM · 10-18-2005, 11:37 PM

H3llburner wrote:

1 ) Ranged items of any sort. the community as a whole feels anything is better then nothing, Note The devs have had time to upgrade and or add a new Ranged item to the Ranger class, WHERE IS OURS.

this one isn't that big of a deal, i would be nice to have ranged weapons but we do have ranged spells to attack with

2 ) Res spell with its ultra limited range and high recast timer. Those are the real issues with that spell, we dont like the res effects, but they can be lived with, the other 2 simply cannot.

the range on the rez does need adjustment, as it stands you have to be right on top of your taget for it to work...i think the rez effect of fully healing the target is awesome - blows away any other in combat rez that i've seen...

3 ) Balance point for Mitigation / avoidance. It just aint kosher, fix it one way or the other.

i haven't really noticed an imbalance here...the wards we get should take up whatever shortfall we have in mit, shields help with avoid...

4 ) Power Pool versus HP pool. Our power pool simply is not big enough for the far more limited HP pool, it should get a boost.

HP could use a little boost, not much but a little, the tradeoff with having a good deal of power is a slightly lower HP, granted the power pool isn't THAT large, but large enough...

5 ) Recast times. Hey so maybe we should not be great DPS, but the recast times make it to difficult for us to generate steady dps, and we should at least be allowed to do that.

some of the timers on some of the high damage spells could be lowered just a tad, not much - just a little...i would personally like to use RoG a little more often, as well as the Oath Strike line of spells...

6) Wards , Heals , Stuns : with the removal of stuns effecting epic targets no one should ever mistake us for being able to heal or ward ourselves for being placed as a tank in any situation raid wise, they are no longer a valid means of tanking outside of a xp group, and are severly limited in use inside a group.

maybe a very slight chance of stunning an epic for a REALLY short durration would be good, but no where as long or as often as it works against a normal mob

7) STR and wis both add to power pool , maybe make it one or the other to help focus on our power pools

don't really have anything for this one...i always take +wis, i think i took +str once...

overall i think pallys got some much needed love with the update, i'm tickled pink with the changes made to the class..we're a much more viable tank now...hate management is easier, i can take agro off someone with a good hit as well as with a taunt - depending on the situation, HP and power pool may need some consideration, but other than that it's a pretty solid class now for a plate/resist tank...

one thing that annoys me a little bit is the fact that a lvl 34^^^ can pwn me at 44...it's a long slow fight and about 50% of the time i end up running...i don't have crappy gear, but i don't have the best either, it should be close but not so close that i end up dying (btw: it's the rat thingies um, enraged thrashers in EL that gave me some troubles) i mean outfitted in this gear: http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=237553114 i should be able to take one of those enraged lashers without worrying about dying...i haven't tried since i dinged 45...guess i'll try that this weekend...

Message Edited by g0thiCiCecReaM on 10-18-2005 02:47 PM

RiotActer · 10-19-2005, 12:06 AM

Yeah, the grey stuff killing you is a tad annoying... I was killing ^^^ Rats in Rivervale last weekend to increase my piercing skill. At level 54 I could just auto attack the level 38 stuff and keep the skill increasing. I was watching tv while doing this.... F8, Ranged attack, auto-attack ... Until I did that and died. I'm thinking how the heck did I die! Until I saw the logs.. A named level 38 rat was dotting me for 425 every 2 seconds. So something 16 levels below me took me out in under 20 seconds?

oneeyedlotus · 10-19-2005, 08:20 AM

1 ) Ranged items of any sort. the community as a whole feels anything is better then nothing, Note The devs have had time to upgrade and or add a new Ranged item to the Ranger class, WHERE IS OURS. This is a valid need, for more than just the paladin class though. Mage and preist classes need something also.

2 ) Res spell with its ultra limited range and high recast timer. Those are the real issues with that spell, we dont like the res effects, but they can be lived with, the other 2 simply cannot. The post-revamp rez is a joke, range is absoluty horrible, the timer is way to long for it to be effective. Id suggest taking away the 100% heal part and giving it a 15-30 sec timer and give it a decent range.

3 ) Balance point for Mitigation / avoidance. It just aint kosher, fix it one way or the other. I can understand where they come from making avoid lower for plate wearing classes, but we need more mitigation.

4 ) Power Pool versus HP pool. Our power pool simply is not big enough for the far more limited HP pool, it should get a boost. Ok this ones simple, if we are to be the lowest HP highest power among fighters we need about 50% more than we have at this time. Or we need to be more balanced with our HP compared to other fighters.

5 ) Recast times. Hey so maybe we should not be great DPS, but the recast times make it to difficult for us to generate steady dps, and we should at least be allowed to do that. Recast timers on our DPS spells are way to long, they took away alot of damage from oath strike line and refusal of grace, there is absolutly no need for the timers to be that long, with our little dps it would be nice to be able to use these spells more than once per fight. I know were not dps but playing a dps role in a group i can break 300ish dps tops with strike/refusal, but the next pull i can barely break 200 because of the casting times. im doing half the dps of the other classes (except preist) even with strike/ refusal. so having the lower timer would seem resonalbe to me.

6) Wards , Heals , Stuns : with the removal of stuns effecting epic targets no one should ever mistake us for being able to heal or ward ourselves for being placed as a tank in any situation raid wise, they are no longer a valid means of tanking outside of a xp group, and are severly limited in use inside a group. I disagree here i find that against single targets raid mobs ( only ones pally should tank in my opinion) stuns should not effect epics, and the only things you should be using in raids as a MT would be taunts and CAs to keep aggro. We are lacking for a group use we are inferior tanks in "most" situations, we need better utility ( better heals, better group heals, FASTER REZ CAST TIMER)

7) STR and wis both add to power pool , maybe make it one or the other to help focus on our power pools Yes we should just have one effect our power pool. WIS should be the only thing to effect our power pool. For 2 reasons 1. since we are a "caster" tank we should focus on wis over str ( but our spells need to be better) and 2. if we were to focus on wis over str our resists should be highest by far over other fighters which would actually give us more use as a tank in raid situations.

Just my 2 cents

Message Edited by oneeyedlotus on 10-18-2005 09:23 PM

Doylen · 10-19-2005, 12:42 PM

oneeyedlotus wrote:

1 ) Ranged items of any sort. the community as a whole feels anything is better then nothing, Note The devs have had time to upgrade and or add a new Ranged item to the Ranger class, WHERE IS OURS. This is a valid need, for more than just the paladin class though. Mage and preist classes need something also. We have lived without a ranged item for... How long? Almost a year? Why can't we live without it a bit longer? They have said they are putting it in but frankly.. I'd rather see some bug fixes before they start working on finishing classes.

2 ) Res spell with its ultra limited range and high recast timer. Those are the real issues with that spell, we dont like the res effects, but they can be lived with, the other 2 simply cannot. The post-revamp rez is a joke, range is absoluty horrible, the timer is way to long for it to be effective. Id suggest taking away the 100% heal part and giving it a 15-30 sec timer and give it a decent range. Well... It is a rez. It brings a group/raid member back to life, It is an awesome spell as it is and the timer I think is nothing wrong with. Just look at templars, their combat rezzes has like 1-2 min recast.

3 ) Balance point for Mitigation / avoidance. It just aint kosher, fix it one way or the other. I can understand where they come from making avoid lower for plate wearing classes, but we need more mitigation. I agree with this.

4 ) Power Pool versus HP pool. Our power pool simply is not big enough for the far more limited HP pool, it should get a boost. Ok this ones simple, if we are to be the lowest HP highest power among fighters we need about 50% more than we have at this time. Or we need to be more balanced with our HP compared to other fighters. Personally i have no problems tanking. I don't have nearly as much HP as a level 60 Guardian (I am a 60 Paladin) but i have a little bit more power, I see after reading a little about it on this thread that it does make sense to raise either HP and Power. I mean with out new increadible aggro management we should be able to take hits at least a little better.

5 ) Recast times. Hey so maybe we should not be great DPS, but the recast times make it to difficult for us to generate steady dps, and we should at least be allowed to do that. Recast timers on our DPS spells are way to long, they took away alot of damage from oath strike line and refusal of grace, there is absolutly no need for the timers to be that long, with our little dps it would be nice to be able to use these spells more than once per fight. I know were not dps but playing a dps role in a group i can break 300ish dps tops with strike/refusal, but the next pull i can barely break 200 because of the casting times. im doing half the dps of the other classes (except preist) even with strike/ refusal. so having the lower timer would seem resonalbe to me. The recast timers? The only thing I've seen beeing increased is Oath strike line of spells and Refusal of Grace line of spells. And Destroy Will (Upgrade to Shatter will at level 52) is increadible now, to undead it can do up to 800 damage.

6) Wards , Heals , Stuns : with the removal of stuns effecting epic targets no one should ever mistake us for being able to heal or ward ourselves for being placed as a tank in any situation raid wise, they are no longer a valid means of tanking outside of a xp group, and are severly limited in use inside a group. I disagree here i find that against single targets raid mobs ( only ones pally should tank in my opinion) stuns should not effect epics, and the only things you should be using in raids as a MT would be taunts and CAs to keep aggro. We are lacking for a group use we are inferior tanks in "most" situations, we need better utility ( better heals, better group heals, FASTER REZ CAST TIMER) I think our heals and Wards and such are fine in raiding situations. I just raided the feerrott drakota again with me tanking and honestly, I had no problem with aggro and the ward did help quite a lot and using heals on people when they pulled aggro occationally took aggro back quite easily.

7) STR and wis both add to power pool , maybe make it one or the other to help focus on our power pools Yes we should just have one effect our power pool. WIS should be the only thing to effect our power pool. For 2 reasons 1. since we are a "caster" tank we should focus on wis over str ( but our spells need to be better) and 2. if we were to focus on wis over str our resists should be highest by far over other fighters which would actually give us more use as a tank in raid situations. But we're not only casters. The STR + WIS is fine, Wisdom increases power by 25% and STR increases power by 75% and WIS also increases most of the resistances so personally it's really good that we have to focus on both because we get 2 good things out of the wisdom

Message Edited by oneeyedlotus on 10-18-2005 09:23 PM

And about the amends beeing stackable and for some reason wearing off from time to time IT IS ANNOYING! You never know if it's working or not.

H3llburn · 10-21-2005, 11:12 PM

altho the Str was a nice boost for our Offensive stance Power pool, Its barely the tip of the icer berg in repairs we need.

H3llburn · 10-29-2005, 11:27 PM

Still 0 spell fixes still no Range item ( "but but Moorguard said " who cares if there is no date its vaporware ) No balancing on mitigation and avoid basically one minor upgrade out of 2 months in an expansion role out stop ignoring our class

10-17-2005, 01:22 AM	#31
mryankee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 68	as in eq1. palys are the red headed step children. they made us unwanted in eq1 , giving our aggro status to the whiney warriors who staged a sit in. we couldnt solo anything and had to group but had nothing to offer. again in eq2 they have made us feel unwanted. oh sure, we can solo. and maybe a group might need us for a rez but they have made us the weakest tank by far. the icing on the cake is no range slot item. i dont care what it is, bow, idol, symbol, dollie , we need something in that slot to help us bridge the gap between palys and the other tanks. plus 14 to 3 stats plus resists is a lot to give up at lvl53. i am not going to hold my breath tho. the folks running soe have shown their dislike for our class. i doubt if any dev plays one. i would love for one to show up here and prove me wrong. __________________

10-17-2005, 07:37 PM	#32
Queen Alexandria Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	I really don't know where to start as a viable suggestion to fix the issue with our heals/wards closing the gap between warriors and crusaders. We are told that crusaders should be able to perform the same task as a warrior as a tank because of our wards and heals, but then when it comes to trying to understand how we can accomplish this, it is very confusing.First off, we are supposed to negate some damage with our heals to make up with the lower health pool that warriors have. Their inability to heal themselves or ward some damage is made up by the simple fact that they can mitigate a bit (ver small margin) better and have a larger health pool that results in a better chance to take larger hits without dying.We all know while killing epic encounters that during most of the fight, our ability to cast any type of healing or ward spells are nearly impossible for the fact that we will be stunned and stifled for long durations. Under any circumstances, the fight usually begins with our ward on, quickly that is gone and we are left to multiple recasts that are interrupted or do not work because of stifle/stuns/interrupts that we are receiving from the epic fight. During this time of concentration to get our wards off, it is easy to forget to taunt, but given the fact that taunts take half a second to go off, that is not an issue. The problem with this scenario is that we are left with an unreliable means of negating damage from an end-game perspective. If we are indeed meant to be able to negate damage in combat with our spells then this means is unacceptable for the fact that it is highly unachievable or sometimes even impossible to accomplish.Solutions:Wards: Do something to our ward, ATLEAST, which makes it uninterruptable and castable while stunned. Reduce the casting time significantly and recast time. This ability to rely on a ward while fighting epic battles will give us the edge to negate the fact that we have a lower health pool. If these changes make our ward too good, give us a new spell line of self wards from which only the Paladin can benefit from, it can be made to work only when you take damage from an epic encounter. You can even reduce the amount of time it lasts on the Paladin like a short duration buff. The use of our wards are very limited since they can only be cast within our group and not throughout the raid.Heals: I consider healing an alternative to negating damage if our ward is unavailable. The only problems here remain the same as the above. We are left totally in the dark when engaged in combat for the simple reason that it is very easy to interrupt our healing process with interrupts and stuns. Our ability to cast in combat is hindered so much that it is nearly impossible to even cast our Divine Touch (instant heal ability, no casting time, lay on hands spell line) in critical moments when it would be needed. I cannot even begin to remember the failure rate for the instances where my hit points dropped in the red from a single blow and i tried to heal myself or divine touch without dying. Given the success to counter with a heal, the encounter might have died before i did.Lay on Hands (Divine Touch): This line of emergency healing should never under any circumstances be interrupted, stifled or unavailable while stunned. It's a favor by our gods to replenish our health in a moment of desperation. There is no further explanation needed to why this spell should be useable under any circumstances. I think the gods will punish me further if i cursed one more time because of the inability to call forth their help.I hope this explains our situation a bit more clearly and i am open for any critism. If you have anything to add, please do not hesitate. If i knew the Shadowknight class a bit more, i would be willing to post a few suggestions to help their situation to accomplish their role. It seems that every shadowknight i have spoken to has chosen to be one because they wanted to assume an offensive role versus the defensive role of a Paladin, and none of them had aspirations to tank epic encounters (tell me i am wrong). __________________

10-17-2005, 09:41 PM	#34
djhbeek Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 679	Yrieldom wrote:Last point, Paladin aka "tank vs caster", We need a way to know our % of spell avoidance, either by mousing over Wisdom or Soe need to adds something in the persona window. If I am supposed to tank caster mob, I want to know how effective I am. We are in the dark right now, I know more wisdom I have more chance i have to avoid a spell but that all. I dont know if 229 wisdom give me 8% or 55% chance to avoid a spell, I dont know if 5pts of WIS give 1% spell avoidance. I need to know those thing if my role is to tank caster mob and its just fair to lets us know how effective we are versus arcarne damage since we give up on physical mitigation AND avoidance to get arcane mitigation and avoidance Completely agree with this last point. Since SOE's combat revamp has yielded a combat system that is still broken, just in different ways (the agi nerf has basically been un-done) and in some cases the SAME ways (watch a mage solo sometime), i have a hard time trusting that they actually hit their mark on the resists thing. Some type of way to verify it's effectiveness is needed ... __________________ Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?

10-18-2005, 04:24 PM	#35
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	djhbeek wrote: Yrieldom wrote:Last point, Paladin aka "tank vs caster", We need a way to know our % of spell avoidance, either by mousing over Wisdom or Soe need to adds something in the persona window. If I am supposed to tank caster mob, I want to know how effective I am. We are in the dark right now, I know more wisdom I have more chance i have to avoid a spell but that all. I dont know if 229 wisdom give me 8% or 55% chance to avoid a spell, I dont know if 5pts of WIS give 1% spell avoidance. I need to know those thing if my role is to tank caster mob and its just fair to lets us know how effective we are versus arcarne damage since we give up on physical mitigation AND avoidance to get arcane mitigation and avoidance Completely agree with this last point. Since SOE's combat revamp has yielded a combat system that is still broken, just in different ways (the agi nerf has basically been un-done) and in some cases the SAME ways (watch a mage solo sometime), i have a hard time trusting that they actually hit their mark on the resists thing. Some type of way to verify it's effectiveness is needed ... Don't let mage's see this, or you will get flamed for saying they are overpowered....... There response to being able to kill Yellow/ Oranage heroics is that they die a lot......well my response is I die all the time, but hey what do I know. Watch any class with Crowd Control solo post revamp, and then someone explain to me how SoE balanced the game.... __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

10-18-2005, 09:15 PM	#38
Belgor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 180	Yrieldom wrote: Test update notes, oct 18 Paladin changes: - Courageous Wrath, Implacable Wrath, and Unyielding Will are now classified as Combat Arts and provide a Strength bonus. - Redemption can now be canceled by the recipient of the spell. I hope that includes Unyielding Wrath and Relentless Wrath also But I am worried that shadowknights do not seem to have got the same change on their stance, though I guess we will see soon what the change actualy means.

10-17-2005, 09:20 PM	#33
Yrield General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 267	Queen Alexandria wrote:I really don't know where to start as a viable suggestion to fix the issue with our heals/wards closing the gap between warriors and crusaders. We are told that crusaders should be able to perform the same task as a warrior as a tank because of our wards and heals, but then when it comes to trying to understand how we can accomplish this, it is very confusing.First off, we are supposed to negate some damage with our heals to make up with the lower health pool that warriors have. Their inability to heal themselves or ward some damage is made up by the simple fact that they can mitigate a bit (ver small margin) better and have a larger health pool that results in a better chance to take larger hits without dying.We all know while killing epic encounters that during most of the fight, our ability to cast any type of healing or ward spells are nearly impossible for the fact that we will be stunned and stifled for long durations. Under any circumstances, the fight usually begins with our ward on, quickly that is gone and we are left to multiple recasts that are interrupted or do not work because of stifle/stuns/interrupts that we are receiving from the epic fight. During this time of concentration to get our wards off, it is easy to forget to taunt, but given the fact that taunts take half a second to go off, that is not an issue. The problem with this scenario is that we are left with an unreliable means of negating damage from an end-game perspective. If we are indeed meant to be able to negate damage in combat with our spells then this means is unacceptable for the fact that it is highly unachievable or sometimes even impossible to accomplish.Solutions:Wards: Do something to our ward, ATLEAST, which makes it uninterruptable and castable while stunned. Reduce the casting time significantly and recast time. This ability to rely on a ward while fighting epic battles will give us the edge to negate the fact that we have a lower health pool. If these changes make our ward too good, give us a new spell line of self wards from which only the Paladin can benefit from, it can be made to work only when you take damage from an epic encounter. You can even reduce the amount of time it lasts on the Paladin like a short duration buff. The use of our wards are very limited since they can only be cast within our group and not throughout the raid.Heals: I consider healing an alternative to negating damage if our ward is unavailable. The only problems here remain the same as the above. We are left totally in the dark when engaged in combat for the simple reason that it is very easy to interrupt our healing process with interrupts and stuns. Our ability to cast in combat is hindered so much that it is nearly impossible to even cast our Divine Touch (instant heal ability, no casting time, lay on hands spell line) in critical moments when it would be needed. I cannot even begin to remember the failure rate for the instances where my hit points dropped in the red from a single blow and i tried to heal myself or divine touch without dying. Given the success to counter with a heal, the encounter might have died before i did.Lay on Hands (Divine Touch): This line of emergency healing should never under any circumstances be interrupted, stifled or unavailable while stunned. It's a favor by our gods to replenish our health in a moment of desperation. There is no further explanation needed to why this spell should be useable under any circumstances. I think the gods will punish me further if i cursed one more time because of the inability to call forth their help.I hope this explains our situation a bit more clearly and i am open for any critism. If you have anything to add, please do not hesitate. If i knew the Shadowknight class a bit more, i would be willing to post a few suggestions to help their situation to accomplish their role. It seems that every shadowknight i have spoken to has chosen to be one because they wanted to assume an offensive role versus the defensive role of a Paladin, and none of them had aspirations to tank epic encounters (tell me i am wrong). Interupt is the biggest design flaw of the class, we are a class designed to cast "under fire" with no tools (reliable at least) to acheive it. Before LU13 it was no big deal, the average trash yard mob almost never used stifle/stun attack... Post-LU13 its an other story, I am for at least HALF of the fight stunned/stiffled/rooted/crippled, so how im supposed to defend myself if i can't cast at all ? To add insult to the injury, SOE in his infinite wisdom give a HUGE focus buff to the mages, I keep asking myself, "why sideline caster get a focus buff when THE melee caster dont get one ?" The 2nd major flaw in the current game situation, defensive class like paladin, guardian, templar, mystic have no real reason to exist, we are defensive class with no edge in defense and with a pigeonholed offense. I never started a Paladin to be a DPS-machine, but to be one of the most defensive class of the most defensive archetype. So I give up DPS to get nothing in return ? that not the kind of "flavor" I was looking for when I started. Last point, Paladin aka "tank vs caster", We need a way to know our % of spell avoidance, either by mousing over Wisdom or Soe need to adds something in the persona window. If I am supposed to tank caster mob, I want to know how effective I am. We are in the dark right now, I know more wisdom I have more chance i have to avoid a spell but that all. I dont know if 229 wisdom give me 8% or 55% chance to avoid a spell, I dont know if 5pts of WIS give 1% spell avoidance. I need to know those thing if my role is to tank caster mob and its just fair to lets us know how effective we are versus arcarne damage since we give up on physical mitigation AND avoidance to get arcane mitigation and avoidance

10-18-2005, 05:32 PM	#36
Benvolio Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4	It is pretty plain to see that the combat system is not balanced and never will be. (It is an extremely hard thing to do, but eq2 isn't even close.) SOE has repeatedly denounced the paladin class and given us one [Removed for Content] character after another. So far there has been nothing new here. As a paladin I can not solo a triple up mob. It is my understanding that others can't either so no big deal. The problem is with the rate I can gain exp. On average I can make about 4% per hour killing undead and completing quests at the same time. My other fighter counterparts in te guild make around 10% per hour soloing. This forces me into groups to have any chanc to keep up with the guild. However, we add very little to the group currently. The reduced HP prevent us from effectively tanking group level mobs due to the high damage we take. This may be an issue with mitigation, avoidance, or HP but it must be addressed. I have seen scouts able to last longer infront of melee based mobs than a paladin. The empty range slot in our equipment is devistating. Losing an additional 150-200 HP and power compaired to any other class is just sad. SOE knows it is wrong but they just can't seem to find the time to fix it. I personally believe they don't care. The stuns are useless on epic mobs. This is broken for all classes and not just paladins. The amends and sigil of heroism is currently bugged. It has been ackowledged on another thread. Unfortunately, I don't see this getting fixed any time soon. Furthermore, why is there no upgrade to the amends line? Is this just going to be a dead spell line? The change to the rez is truely unreal. This was about the only thing I was able to add to a raiding guild and now the range on this is laughable and the confirmation box is just annoying. Not to mention the recast time is huge. Really, we are a poor tank for any end level gaming to say the least. We are not able to rez as often or as effectively as we once did. We have been reduced to extra damage on a raid with some healing. Taking any other class on the raid would be a benefit. So while your at it why not just make us a leather based class? Oh, and maybe make boots unequipable for us as well.

10-18-2005, 09:02 PM	#37
Yrield General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 267	Test update notes, oct 18 Paladin changes:- Courageous Wrath, Implacable Wrath, and Unyielding Will are now classified as Combat Arts and provide a Strength bonus.- Redemption can now be canceled by the recipient of the spell.

10-18-2005, 09:24 PM	#39
Yrield General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 267	Belgorim wrote: Yrieldom wrote:Test update notes, oct 18 Paladin changes:- Courageous Wrath, Implacable Wrath, and Unyielding Will are now classified as Combat Arts and provide a Strength bonus.- Redemption can now be canceled by the recipient of the spell. I hope that includes Unyielding Wrath and Relentless Wrath also But I am worried that shadowknights do not seem to have got the same change on their stance, though I guess we will see soon what the change actualy means. Unyielding Will look like a typo error and should be Unyielding Wrath (Unyielding Will = Lvl35 warrior) SK's Dark sword line is now a CAs too, so i guess they get a STR bonus too !

10-18-2005, 11:04 PM	#40
Queen Alexandria Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	Benvolioeq wrote: It is pretty plain to see that the combat system is not balanced and never will be. (It is an extremely hard thing to do, but eq2 isn't even close.) SOE has repeatedly denounced the paladin class and given us one [Removed for Content] character after another. So far there has been nothing new here. As a paladin I can not solo a triple up mob. It is my understanding that others can't either so no big deal. The problem is with the rate I can gain exp. On average I can make about 4% per hour killing undead and completing quests at the same time. My other fighter counterparts in te guild make around 10% per hour soloing. This forces me into groups to have any chanc to keep up with the guild. However, we add very little to the group currently. The reduced HP prevent us from effectively tanking group level mobs due to the high damage we take. This may be an issue with mitigation, avoidance, or HP but it must be addressed. I have seen scouts able to last longer infront of melee based mobs than a paladin. The empty range slot in our equipment is devistating. Losing an additional 150-200 HP and power compaired to any other class is just sad. SOE knows it is wrong but they just can't seem to find the time to fix it. I personally believe they don't care. The stuns are useless on epic mobs. This is broken for all classes and not just paladins. The amends and sigil of heroism is currently bugged. It has been ackowledged on another thread. Unfortunately, I don't see this getting fixed any time soon. Furthermore, why is there no upgrade to the amends line? Is this just going to be a dead spell line? The change to the rez is truely unreal. This was about the only thing I was able to add to a raiding guild and now the range on this is laughable and the confirmation box is just annoying. Not to mention the recast time is huge. Really, we are a poor tank for any end level gaming to say the least. We are not able to rez as often or as effectively as we once did. We have been reduced to extra damage on a raid with some healing. Taking any other class on the raid would be a benefit. So while your at it why not just make us a leather based class? Oh, and maybe make boots unequipable for us as well. First off, I can solo tripple up encounters, they have to be green or large encounters that i can AE. Second, exp is situational, i was at one point getting 10% an hour soloing undead in silent city. Our damage against undead is very good and we can kill really fast. On the other hand, i have grouped and gotten better exp than that. Third, raid buffs, potions and our buffs put us at the same mitigation as any guardian out there, the big determining factor remains that most guardians have better gear/experience. Some guardians even argue that we are better tanks because of our wisdom, since we can achieve the same mitigation our wisdom sets us ahead. But we are not meant for every encounter, neither are Guardians... our stances give us magic and divine mitigation, theirs gives them fire and whatever else. Our stances give us the ability to tank certain encounters better which sets us appart.Fourth, ranged slot, now that is a valid issue. It's been talked about, told it was going to get fixed but seems low on the priority since it has been nearly a year now that it has been broken.Fifth, stuns on epic trivializes the encounters. This has already been brought up that chain stunning an encounter can really take the challenge out of the whole fight, where is the fun in this?Next... amends being broken because of sigil is a fairly new bug, id give it more time to see if its going to get fixed. Rez is a bit rediculous, have to stand on top of the corpse to cast it, and not only that, you have to stay there if the person doesnt click the box for a while, restricting you to that area. As far as being useful on a raid, i like the idea of intercepting attacks for the main tank, its a great concept but very flawed at the moment since it does not get mitigated and you take the full hit for what its worth (some encounters hit for 8k damage consistently, no one can intercept that and live, unless you have divine favor, but still its a risk). __________________

10-18-2005, 11:37 PM	#41
g0thiC_iCe_cReaM Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 637	H3llburner wrote: 1 ) Ranged items of any sort. the community as a whole feels anything is better then nothing, Note The devs have had time to upgrade and or add a new Ranged item to the Ranger class, WHERE IS OURS. this one isn't that big of a deal, i would be nice to have ranged weapons but we do have ranged spells to attack with 2 ) Res spell with its ultra limited range and high recast timer. Those are the real issues with that spell, we dont like the res effects, but they can be lived with, the other 2 simply cannot. the range on the rez does need adjustment, as it stands you have to be right on top of your taget for it to work...i think the rez effect of fully healing the target is awesome - blows away any other in combat rez that i've seen... 3 ) Balance point for Mitigation / avoidance. It just aint kosher, fix it one way or the other. i haven't really noticed an imbalance here...the wards we get should take up whatever shortfall we have in mit, shields help with avoid... 4 ) Power Pool versus HP pool. Our power pool simply is not big enough for the far more limited HP pool, it should get a boost. HP could use a little boost, not much but a little, the tradeoff with having a good deal of power is a slightly lower HP, granted the power pool isn't THAT large, but large enough... 5 ) Recast times. Hey so maybe we should not be great DPS, but the recast times make it to difficult for us to generate steady dps, and we should at least be allowed to do that. some of the timers on some of the high damage spells could be lowered just a tad, not much - just a little...i would personally like to use RoG a little more often, as well as the Oath Strike line of spells... 6) Wards , Heals , Stuns : with the removal of stuns effecting epic targets no one should ever mistake us for being able to heal or ward ourselves for being placed as a tank in any situation raid wise, they are no longer a valid means of tanking outside of a xp group, and are severly limited in use inside a group. maybe a very slight chance of stunning an epic for a REALLY short durration would be good, but no where as long or as often as it works against a normal mob 7) STR and wis both add to power pool , maybe make it one or the other to help focus on our power pools don't really have anything for this one...i always take +wis, i think i took +str once... overall i think pallys got some much needed love with the update, i'm tickled pink with the changes made to the class..we're a much more viable tank now...hate management is easier, i can take agro off someone with a good hit as well as with a taunt - depending on the situation, HP and power pool may need some consideration, but other than that it's a pretty solid class now for a plate/resist tank... one thing that annoys me a little bit is the fact that a lvl 34^^^ can pwn me at 44...it's a long slow fight and about 50% of the time i end up running...i don't have crappy gear, but i don't have the best either, it should be close but not so close that i end up dying (btw: it's the rat thingies um, enraged thrashers in EL that gave me some troubles) i mean outfitted in this gear: http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=237553114 i should be able to take one of those enraged lashers without worrying about dying...i haven't tried since i dinged 45...guess i'll try that this weekend... Message Edited by g0thiCiCecReaM on 10-18-2005 02:47 PM

10-19-2005, 12:06 AM	#42
RiotActer Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 118	Yeah, the grey stuff killing you is a tad annoying... I was killing ^^^ Rats in Rivervale last weekend to increase my piercing skill. At level 54 I could just auto attack the level 38 stuff and keep the skill increasing. I was watching tv while doing this.... F8, Ranged attack, auto-attack ... Until I did that and died. I'm thinking how the heck did I die! Until I saw the logs.. A named level 38 rat was dotting me for 425 every 2 seconds. So something 16 levels below me took me out in under 20 seconds? __________________ ______________________________________ Raymond - 79 Kerra Pally Rays - 80 Conjy

10-19-2005, 08:20 AM	#43
oneeyedlotus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 59	1 ) Ranged items of any sort. the community as a whole feels anything is better then nothing, Note The devs have had time to upgrade and or add a new Ranged item to the Ranger class, WHERE IS OURS. This is a valid need, for more than just the paladin class though. Mage and preist classes need something also. 2 ) Res spell with its ultra limited range and high recast timer. Those are the real issues with that spell, we dont like the res effects, but they can be lived with, the other 2 simply cannot. The post-revamp rez is a joke, range is absoluty horrible, the timer is way to long for it to be effective. Id suggest taking away the 100% heal part and giving it a 15-30 sec timer and give it a decent range. 3 ) Balance point for Mitigation / avoidance. It just aint kosher, fix it one way or the other. I can understand where they come from making avoid lower for plate wearing classes, but we need more mitigation. 4 ) Power Pool versus HP pool. Our power pool simply is not big enough for the far more limited HP pool, it should get a boost. Ok this ones simple, if we are to be the lowest HP highest power among fighters we need about 50% more than we have at this time. Or we need to be more balanced with our HP compared to other fighters. 5 ) Recast times. Hey so maybe we should not be great DPS, but the recast times make it to difficult for us to generate steady dps, and we should at least be allowed to do that. Recast timers on our DPS spells are way to long, they took away alot of damage from oath strike line and refusal of grace, there is absolutly no need for the timers to be that long, with our little dps it would be nice to be able to use these spells more than once per fight. I know were not dps but playing a dps role in a group i can break 300ish dps tops with strike/refusal, but the next pull i can barely break 200 because of the casting times. im doing half the dps of the other classes (except preist) even with strike/ refusal. so having the lower timer would seem resonalbe to me. 6) Wards , Heals , Stuns : with the removal of stuns effecting epic targets no one should ever mistake us for being able to heal or ward ourselves for being placed as a tank in any situation raid wise, they are no longer a valid means of tanking outside of a xp group, and are severly limited in use inside a group. I disagree here i find that against single targets raid mobs ( only ones pally should tank in my opinion) stuns should not effect epics, and the only things you should be using in raids as a MT would be taunts and CAs to keep aggro. We are lacking for a group use we are inferior tanks in "most" situations, we need better utility ( better heals, better group heals, FASTER REZ CAST TIMER) 7) STR and wis both add to power pool , maybe make it one or the other to help focus on our power pools Yes we should just have one effect our power pool. WIS should be the only thing to effect our power pool. For 2 reasons 1. since we are a "caster" tank we should focus on wis over str ( but our spells need to be better) and 2. if we were to focus on wis over str our resists should be highest by far over other fighters which would actually give us more use as a tank in raid situations. Just my 2 cents Message Edited by oneeyedlotus on 10-18-2005 09:23 PM __________________

10-19-2005, 12:42 PM	#44
Doylen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 40	oneeyedlotus wrote: 1 ) Ranged items of any sort. the community as a whole feels anything is better then nothing, Note The devs have had time to upgrade and or add a new Ranged item to the Ranger class, WHERE IS OURS. This is a valid need, for more than just the paladin class though. Mage and preist classes need something also. We have lived without a ranged item for... How long? Almost a year? Why can't we live without it a bit longer? They have said they are putting it in but frankly.. I'd rather see some bug fixes before they start working on finishing classes. 2 ) Res spell with its ultra limited range and high recast timer. Those are the real issues with that spell, we dont like the res effects, but they can be lived with, the other 2 simply cannot. The post-revamp rez is a joke, range is absoluty horrible, the timer is way to long for it to be effective. Id suggest taking away the 100% heal part and giving it a 15-30 sec timer and give it a decent range. Well... It is a rez. It brings a group/raid member back to life, It is an awesome spell as it is and the timer I think is nothing wrong with. Just look at templars, their combat rezzes has like 1-2 min recast. 3 ) Balance point for Mitigation / avoidance. It just aint kosher, fix it one way or the other. I can understand where they come from making avoid lower for plate wearing classes, but we need more mitigation. I agree with this. 4 ) Power Pool versus HP pool. Our power pool simply is not big enough for the far more limited HP pool, it should get a boost. Ok this ones simple, if we are to be the lowest HP highest power among fighters we need about 50% more than we have at this time. Or we need to be more balanced with our HP compared to other fighters. Personally i have no problems tanking. I don't have nearly as much HP as a level 60 Guardian (I am a 60 Paladin) but i have a little bit more power, I see after reading a little about it on this thread that it does make sense to raise either HP and Power. I mean with out new increadible aggro management we should be able to take hits at least a little better. 5 ) Recast times. Hey so maybe we should not be great DPS, but the recast times make it to difficult for us to generate steady dps, and we should at least be allowed to do that. Recast timers on our DPS spells are way to long, they took away alot of damage from oath strike line and refusal of grace, there is absolutly no need for the timers to be that long, with our little dps it would be nice to be able to use these spells more than once per fight. I know were not dps but playing a dps role in a group i can break 300ish dps tops with strike/refusal, but the next pull i can barely break 200 because of the casting times. im doing half the dps of the other classes (except preist) even with strike/ refusal. so having the lower timer would seem resonalbe to me. The recast timers? The only thing I've seen beeing increased is Oath strike line of spells and Refusal of Grace line of spells. And Destroy Will (Upgrade to Shatter will at level 52) is increadible now, to undead it can do up to 800 damage. 6) Wards , Heals , Stuns : with the removal of stuns effecting epic targets no one should ever mistake us for being able to heal or ward ourselves for being placed as a tank in any situation raid wise, they are no longer a valid means of tanking outside of a xp group, and are severly limited in use inside a group. I disagree here i find that against single targets raid mobs ( only ones pally should tank in my opinion) stuns should not effect epics, and the only things you should be using in raids as a MT would be taunts and CAs to keep aggro. We are lacking for a group use we are inferior tanks in "most" situations, we need better utility ( better heals, better group heals, FASTER REZ CAST TIMER) I think our heals and Wards and such are fine in raiding situations. I just raided the feerrott drakota again with me tanking and honestly, I had no problem with aggro and the ward did help quite a lot and using heals on people when they pulled aggro occationally took aggro back quite easily. 7) STR and wis both add to power pool , maybe make it one or the other to help focus on our power pools Yes we should just have one effect our power pool. WIS should be the only thing to effect our power pool. For 2 reasons 1. since we are a "caster" tank we should focus on wis over str ( but our spells need to be better) and 2. if we were to focus on wis over str our resists should be highest by far over other fighters which would actually give us more use as a tank in raid situations. But we're not only casters. The STR + WIS is fine, Wisdom increases power by 25% and STR increases power by 75% and WIS also increases most of the resistances so personally it's really good that we have to focus on both because we get 2 good things out of the wisdom Message Edited by oneeyedlotus on 10-18-2005 09:23 PM And about the amends beeing stackable and for some reason wearing off from time to time IT IS ANNOYING! You never know if it's working or not.

10-21-2005, 11:12 PM	#45
H3llburn Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 46	altho the Str was a nice boost for our Offensive stance Power pool, Its barely the tip of the icer berg in repairs we need.

10-29-2005, 11:27 PM	#46
H3llburn Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 46	Still 0 spell fixes still no Range item ( "but but Moorguard said " who cares if there is no date its vaporware ) No balancing on mitigation and avoid basically one minor upgrade out of 2 months in an expansion role out stop ignoring our class