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Old 09-01-2010, 02:57 PM   #1
Xelgad

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You may have noticed that currently on test mitigation numbers seem lower. There was no notes in the Test Update notes because it was pushed to Test a little sooner than we expected. We've been evaluating all of the systems in the game to find out what is working and what is not working correctly. During this investigation, we found that there was a bug with the blue stat "Mitigation Increase" causing it to give noticably more than the listed amount of mitigation. This bug has been fixed and is currently on the test servers. A mitigation increase of 10% was increasing plate mitigation by about 30% and leather mitigation by about 54%. This has been fixed so that the mitigation increase that says 10% will increase your mitigation by 10%. The addition of mitigation to the brawler self buffs was to be in tandem with this bug fix. This change is important because reaching the cap on mitigation causes some abilities, advancements and gear options to become irrelevent. That is obviously detrimental to gameplay and it can be detrimental to balance as well. If some classes have been balanced around having abilities to boost their mitigation and players end up capping out that stat then that element of balance is lost. This bug has been in the game for a long time so the fix will reduce the mitigation of most tanks. For the sake of being able to balance the tanks in the future, we needed to correct the formula that was used to calculate the effectiveness of "Mitigation Increase."We'll try to address questions and concerns regarding this fix and we aren't in a rush to get this change to Live. If it looks like there may be problems with it, we'll take the time to get it working right.

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Old 09-01-2010, 03:09 PM   #2
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Are you got balance mobs frontal trauma ae's around this fix ? i mean having a max hit in front of 80k to 100k means that it will kill almost all tanks that stone skin through it.

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Old 09-01-2010, 03:12 PM   #3
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Brildean wrote:

Are you got balance mobs frontal trauma ae's around this fix ? i mean having a max hit in front of 80k to 100k means that it will kill almost all tanks that stone skin through it.

Also the re-look at the foolish 180 degree arc for so many raid mobs. Put that stuff back to a frontal cone and make it a frontal rather then a Half-moon of frontal AE trauma. So if a mob happens to move some due to placement or enviroment coding issues.. it isnt blasting everyone on one side b/c of that.

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Old 09-01-2010, 03:36 PM   #4
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Think we could get old things fixed first (like make Siphon Str for sk actually siphon boosts we use-part of it still siphons INT which is no use to us).

Said it before, say it again, changes/adjustments would be easier to take if previous changes were followed thru on.

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Old 09-01-2010, 03:38 PM   #5
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I was beginning to wonder why it was so easy for all tanks to cap physical mitigation. Now I know.

This is going to have a major, major impact for sure. Will mob damage output be toned down to compensate?

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Old 09-01-2010, 03:39 PM   #6
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Brawlers are finnaly where they should be when it comes to tanking.   Your going to make it so brawlers are weak and lame again.  This fix is terribad because all of the Hard encounters this gear was useful for  are now going to be steam rollers with stupidily huge crit double attacks.  Leave it alone or scale back Hardmode auto attack tables because they already have stupidly huge aoes one shotting tanks.

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Old 09-01-2010, 03:47 PM   #7
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Hmm that does explain why mitigation on tanks was easier to cap then it should have been. I'm glad you're planning on keeping this on test for a while, as it sucks to be in the position of being able to tank certain content and then have a fix go in that takes that ability away.

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Old 09-01-2010, 04:20 PM   #8
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@ Xelgad

If you check the mitigation and mitigation increase then check also the advoidence.

Then the advoidence does not work correctly. With 37,1% uncontestet advoidence and advoidence overall 74,1-80% we will be hit with a rate of 75%-55%. I mean it blocks only 25%-45% from the incoming hits. Our skills are wide over top from the mob lvl. Theoretical them should be work effectively, but it does not work correctly.

Sorry for the bad english, i hope you understand.

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Old 09-01-2010, 04:26 PM   #9
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Any chance of getting a clearer picture/explanatin of mitigation on items.

Like a way to tell how a level 80 with 700 mit actually compares to level 90 with 600 mit?  Which is better?   The current system makes absolutely NO intuitive sense.

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Old 09-01-2010, 04:26 PM   #10
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Rather brutal change.You darn well better take a hard look at Trauma AEs from raid mobs now as well. (of course, nothing will get changed before this mit decrease on tanks goes live).

Those AEs are already BRUTAL in the frontal on tanks, and if they lose several thousand mit, it will be even worse.And with such a slow reactive correction speed SoE has as of late... I'm not really going to be a fan of broken raid mobs for a month while they "get around" to making corrections.

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Old 09-01-2010, 04:27 PM   #11
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Yes, migitation and block are really the only things that work this expansion.  + parry seems to do nothing at all.  If you're going to make a huge cut into migitation please fix the other defensive attributes.

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Old 09-01-2010, 04:39 PM   #12
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The mitigation increase on armor from lv80 to lv90 was very minimal except for the increase in amount of +%mit we could get.  Are you taking a look at increasing the base mit on armor now?  What are/were mobs balanced around, and what is changing on that end with this change?

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Old 09-01-2010, 04:44 PM   #13
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Is this change causing the bruiser's Hardened Skin AA to have reduced effect as well? I found the following on Vest of Iilsad Base: 382 mitigation Live: with 5 pts in Hardened Skin / 435 mitigation Test: with 5 pts. in Hardened Skin / 391 mitigation Is improving mitigation by 9 points really meeting the description of bringing it close to same mitigation as chain?
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Old 09-01-2010, 04:49 PM   #14
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I tell you what, the math to figure out your actual physical mit is a clusterfudge.

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Old 09-01-2010, 05:02 PM   #15
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Xalmat wrote:

I tell you what, the math to figure out your actual physical mit is a clusterfudge.

I'm need to have a look at it on Test but at the moment I gotta say that this sounds like a pretty major change.  I hope it's not as major as I currently think it may be.

The maths for the current mechanics are in THIS thread, though it may be that they are only applicable for plate armor (judging by what Xelgad says)

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Old 09-01-2010, 05:07 PM   #16
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steelbadger wrote:

The maths for the current mechanics are in THIS thread, though it may be that they are only applicable for plate armor (judging by what Xelgad says)

How did I miss that thread? Thanks for pointing it out.

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Old 09-01-2010, 05:36 PM   #17
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steelbadger wrote:

Xalmat wrote:

I tell you what, the math to figure out your actual physical mit is a clusterfudge.

I'm need to have a look at it on Test but at the moment I gotta say that this sounds like a pretty major change.  I hope it's not as major as I currently think it may be.

The maths for the current mechanics are in THIS thread, though it may be that they are only applicable for plate armor (judging by what Xelgad says)

Since that thread doesn't include gear level it isn't complete.  I can't speak tot he veracity of the remainder.

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Old 09-01-2010, 05:40 PM   #18
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Its been clear since +mitigation first showed up on TSO set gear that it was not in fact raising item based mitigation by a flat percent.

Initial conjecture was it was adjusting the mitigation numbers enough to raise the %damage mitigated by a full percent rather than just adding to your worn armor effectiveness.  These numbers didn't hold up either.

I'm glad to see this finally being fixed, do I get blamed for this nerf too?

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Old 09-01-2010, 05:43 PM   #19
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ShamusOB wrote:

Brawlers are finnaly where they should be when it comes to tanking.   Your going to make it so brawlers are weak and lame again.  This fix is terribad because all of the Hard encounters this gear was useful for  are now going to be steam rollers with stupidily huge crit double attacks.  Leave it alone or scale back Hardmode auto attack tables because they already have stupidly huge aoes one shotting tanks.

This change if left unchecked could certainly have a very negative effect on raiding Brawlers, which is why we've already taken steps to counter that with the additional mitigation added to their self-buffs.  With the best defensive gear in the game, they will still see their mitigation fall (as each of the fighter classes will), but this does have the positive effect of making the class a bit less dependant on defensive gear.

Brildean wrote:

Are you got balance mobs frontal trauma ae's around this fix ? i mean having a max hit in front of 80k to 100k means that it will kill almost all tanks that stone skin through it.

We'll look into the frontal arcs on trauma AEs before pushing this Live.

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Old 09-01-2010, 06:03 PM   #20
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Also are you going to be increasing the defensive sets for tanks.. we went from loosing crit bonus and potency on items to get this +mitigation cause it was our job to mitigate blows.. now with the change is these blue stats still weighed the same or can we see some increase in the gear.. Wearing offensive set sitting at 61% mitigation vs wearing defensive set at 63% mitigation not that big of a deal to go all offensive. We loose alot going with a defensive set maybe make it more defensive.. either add +block chance to some of the pieces or an extra couple points of + mitigation.

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Old 09-01-2010, 06:05 PM   #21
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Xelgad wrote:

We'll look into the frontal arcs on trauma AEs before pushing this Live.

Hopefully this look will include group content as well? SMILEY 

Things are fine in that respect today, I just hope they stay fine after this change.  Group content balanced around group gear, raid content balanced around raid gear.  Don't zap the mitigation of everyone, rebalance raid content, and hang the poor non-raiders out to dry when it comes to group content.  SMILEY

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Old 09-01-2010, 06:08 PM   #22
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Does this mitigation bugfix affect any of the various PVP mitigation increases as well? 

ie: 4% mitigation increase adornment, etc.

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Old 09-01-2010, 06:13 PM   #23
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Once this rolls out, it'll be interesting to see if one Paladin remains on each server, or if there'll just be one remaining Paladin in the game.

Ok, so that's hyperbole, but still.  I'm glad I don't play one.  First the heal crit nerf hits them the hardest out of the tank classes, and now a mitigation nerf will make it even tougher for them to survive.  Yikes.

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Old 09-01-2010, 06:17 PM   #24
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I don't play a pally, but I think these mitigation changes should have been tested and pushed live prior to the heal crit nerf, and the heal crit nerf be reevaluated if it was needed and if so by how much (maybe half crit values as is done with shaman wards).  

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Old 09-01-2010, 06:25 PM   #25
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Ok, so comparing test to live (Identical gear; full set of defensive T1 Plate on a Guardian) I go from 12950 on Live to 8952 on Test.  74.8% on Live to 67.7% on Test.

That means I'm going to be taking 28% more damage with this change.  I hope you've worked out a plan to consider that in your encounter design.  That is a very very noticeable nerf.

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Old 09-01-2010, 06:26 PM   #26
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Undorett wrote:

I don't play a pally, but I think these mitigation changes should have been tested and pushed live prior to the heal crit nerf, and the heal crit nerf be reevaluated if it was needed and if so by how much (maybe half crit values as is done with shaman wards).  

Heals generated from fighters was still too high, regardless of the mitigation change.  All you had to do was play pvp pre and post SF to see it.

I figure if they tack on a melee proc chance nerf to not proc off aoe hits, coupled with everything else they're doing and the game starts to get reasonable again.

I think all three changes needed to be looked at together and coordinated though (as you were getting at) cause the end result may require tweaking too much content.

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Old 09-01-2010, 06:55 PM   #27
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Xelgad wrote:

You may have noticed that currently on test mitigation numbers seem lower. There was no notes in the Test Update notes because it was pushed to Test a little sooner than we expected. We've been evaluating all of the systems in the game to find out what is working and what is not working correctly. During this investigation, we found that there was a bug with the blue stat "Mitigation Increase" causing it to give noticably more than the listed amount of mitigation. This bug has been fixed and is currently on the test servers. A mitigation increase of 10% was increasing plate mitigation by about 30% and leather mitigation by about 54%. This has been fixed so that the mitigation increase that says 10% will increase your mitigation by 10%. The addition of mitigation to the brawler self buffs was to be in tandem with this bug fix. This change is important because reaching the cap on mitigation causes some abilities, advancements and gear options to become irrelevent. That is obviously detrimental to gameplay and it can be detrimental to balance as well. If some classes have been balanced around having abilities to boost their mitigation and players end up capping out that stat then that element of balance is lost. This bug has been in the game for a long time so the fix will reduce the mitigation of most tanks. For the sake of being able to balance the tanks in the future, we needed to correct the formula that was used to calculate the effectiveness of "Mitigation Increase."We'll try to address questions and concerns regarding this fix and we aren't in a rush to get this change to Live. If it looks like there may be problems with it, we'll take the time to get it working right.

Does this affect the percent-based mit increase on CAs (such as def stance) as well?

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Old 09-01-2010, 06:59 PM   #28
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Wilin wrote:

Does this affect the percent-based mit increase on CAs (such as def stance) as well?

It shouldn't.  When I did my mit testing the def stance bonuses were working rationally.

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Old 09-01-2010, 07:01 PM   #29
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Wilin wrote:

Does this affect the percent-based mit increase on CAs (such as def stance) as well?

You mean the "Increases the caster's effectiveness of worn armor vs physical damage by X %" on your defense stance? That is not affected.

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Old 09-01-2010, 07:04 PM   #30
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To answer a few questions:

Wilin wrote:

Does this affect the percent-based mit increase on CAs (such as def stance) as well?

Defensive Stances use a different mechanic to increase mitigation. They won't be affected by this fix.

Neskonlith wrote:

Does this mitigation bugfix affect any of the various PVP mitigation increases as well? 

ie: 4% mitigation increase adornment, etc.

Yes. It'll affect anything that says "Mitigation Increase."

[email protected] wrote:

Hopefully this look will include group content as well?  

Things are fine in that respect today, I just hope they stay fine after this change.  Group content balanced around group gear, raid content balanced around raid gear.  Don't zap the mitigation of everyone, rebalance raid content, and hang the poor non-raiders out to dry when it comes to group content. 

We only anticipate problems with huge spikes of physical damage which is why we're looking into Trauma AEs on raids. In general, those types of damage spikes are rare in heroic content, but if you have some encounters in mind, let us know and we can look into them. Keep in mind that the effect of this change on heroic geared players will be smaller as they have substantially less Mitigation Increase.

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