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Old 02-23-2010, 10:04 PM   #31
Masuma

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Do i understand this right: you basically consider disabling all macros with more than 1 non-instant abilities?

When i disable ability queue in options / Controls / Button Queue, my macros with several combat arts (no other command but usability basically) will not do anything at all anymore. I do not really understand why that happens. Is that what i will have to expect to happen? :-|

Also apart from macros i really like ability queueing and would hate to lose it. It would also have a bad impact on my ability to 2box my SK with my troubador. As it is at the moment, i have 2 screens, i am mostly active with my SK but i can manually jcap people, use maestro etc, hit an attack from time to time. 

With my buffed SK I have combat arts with a casting time of 0,29 - 0,25 seconds and a recovery speed of 0,25 seconds. I would probably get used to having to press so many different buttons so fast all the time. But would it b e fun? would it be what i want to do to relax in my free time?

You say that no command will be send to  the server when one ability is being casted. Is it not possible to only check on client side if the ability that i try to cast in my macro is currently not available, and if it is not available simply dont cast it?

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:10 PM   #32
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From what I am reading, if I cast a spell directly followed by a macroed spell, then I am going to have to repeatedly tap the macro, since macro will not allow use of the queue ability, until it casts so I do not lose time in the casting routine. Ugh, the aggravation ....   This change will force players watch watch their casting progress bar like a hawk.

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:17 PM   #33
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SkyBee wrote:

From what I am reading, if I cast a spell directly followed by a macroed spell, then I am going to have to repeatedly tap the macro, since macro will not allow use of the queue ability [..]

since my macros will simply stop working if i disable button queieing in the options, i am not so sure that will be possible.

But maybe and hopefully i misunderstand something.

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:24 PM   #34
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SkyBee wrote:

From what I am reading, if I cast a spell directly followed by a macroed spell, then I am going to have to repeatedly tap the macro, since macro will not allow use of the queue ability, until it casts so I do not lose time in the casting routine. Ugh, the aggravation ....   This change will force players watch watch their casting progress bar like a hawk.

As I have it currently, if you are casting and click a macro icon, the last ability in the list will queue.  This is exactly how it would occur today except that instead of it sending 20 useability commands, each one overwriting the other, the macro will now just send the last one.

I've also just modified the "use" command so that it now works with harvest objects.  So your harvesting macro will look like:

/target_nearest/use

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:30 PM   #35
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:32 PM   #36
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once it sends the "last one" will it step to the next availible spell?

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:32 PM   #37
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What would happen if we are getting serious lag?

We used to raid with more than 20 secs lag, during that time we've got to spam macros blindly. Although the skills is not availiable on the client, the command was send and spell casted. So we managed to raid because the heals were actually casted 20 secs before we see it, instead of wait for extended and non-sync reuse during all the lags

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:34 PM   #38
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I don't like it. Matter of fact i hate it. We are given a limited hotbar ammount and a way to save space for my casters is to lump spells two to a macro (for me its just the buffs) , but if i am reading this right it makes this practice no longer possable. also takes away the only realy usefulness of the macro system. maybe give us a wait command like eq1 had where it would cast a spell we could tell the macro to wait (the duration of the cast time of the first spell) and then have it cast another spell.

I'm kinda disappointed.

no definatly disappointed

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:38 PM   #39
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

once it sends the "last one" will it step to the next availible spell?

Not sure I understand your question.

If the macro reaches the last spell in the macro and sends it to the server for queuing, there's no place else for it to go.  The steps are executed top to bottom and then it's done.

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:41 PM   #40
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Rothgar wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If I am understanding this change correctly, then basicly you just removed the ability to use spell queuing from macros (in addition to the changes for client side pre-processing).

Is this correct?

Yes, a side-effect of this change is that spells won't be queued with a macro command.  They will still be queued if you use the spell directly. 

Bright_Morn

I can't see how this change breaks your Fire and Ice shape macros.  Please explain how it works for you now and how you think it will work after this change.

These would break because Ice and Fire shape are not instant abilities.  They have cast times.  So these are 2 spells in a macro, so no queuing in a macro breaks them.

EDIT: With the changes to allow the last spell to be queued this will fix the issue.  However I would still prefer for the Shape AAs to be combined with the Proc spells for simplicities sake.

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:46 PM   #41
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

I don't like it. Matter of fact i hate it. We are given a limited hotbar ammount and a way to save space for my casters is to lump spells two to a macro (for me its just the buffs) , but if i am reading this right it makes this practice no longer possable. also takes away the only realy usefulness of the macro system. maybe give us a wait command like eq1 had where it would cast a spell we could tell the macro to wait (the duration of the cast time of the first spell) and then have it cast another spell.

I'm kinda disappointed.

no definatly disappointed

I've updated my initial post so for those that don't read the entire thread will understand better how this is going to work.

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:48 PM   #42
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How would /cancel_spellcast macro's be affected? Cures, Cure curses, death saves, instant heals, stringing multiple instant abilities together how are they going to be impacted?

Can we still change what is queued for next ability (several times) during a long cast as the situation changes during the duration of that cast?

Can people make Jcap macro's to run down the priority of JCAP recipients until a person isn't immune?

My understanding of your initial post is you're trying to reduce the dataflow without changing gameplay, that's a great goal, but only if it's fully realised and it's the code changing not people's playstyle having to change.

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Old 02-23-2010, 10:58 PM   #43
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snowline wrote:

How would /cancel_spellcast macro's be affected? Cures, Cure curses, death saves, instant heals, stringing multiple instant abilities together how are they going to be impacted?

Can we still change what is queued for next ability (several times) during a long cast as the situation changes during the duration of that cast?

Can people make Jcap macro's to run down the priority of JCAP recipients until a person isn't immune?

My understanding of your initial post is you're trying to reduce the dataflow without changing gameplay, that's a great goal, but only if it's fully realised and it's the code changing not people's playstyle having to change.

Nothing other than useability commands would be affected, so you can still cancel spellcasts.  Things will queue the same way they always do, the only difference is that we won't be sending all of the queue commands, just the last one. 

If you're not casting, we won't be sending commands for abilities that are not ready yet (unless its the last one).

The only issue I see at the moment that needs to be worked out are macros that spam the same ability with different targets.

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Old 02-23-2010, 11:20 PM   #44
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If the changes are transparent to the user, and we can still change the queued ability (sending last ability in a macro pressed during a cast) then it all should seem as it was before, and saves changing the last queued for everything in the list on each macro press.

Is it possible for "Smart" clientside processing of a macro, where it sends out multiples of the same ability with different targets as an ordered batch that the server then finds the first available from that batch e.g. for JCap Gravitas etc?

Howabout items..... is it possible that in the macro-overhaul we could gain some functionality, for example doing equiment uses - like activating mythical item use for 1 example, based on the commands position in the list versus the availability of abilities/targets only above it, not like the current model where items only activate if all abilities above or below it in the macro are unavailable.

Equally swapping gear, will that happen based on the position of the command in the macro.

Finally is there a way of getting rid of the ITEM NOT READY YET from obscuring the text of the current ability casting on the castbar.

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Old 02-24-2010, 02:06 AM   #45
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I have an AA that uses a combat art, while casting a spell. So I have a macro for a nuke, plus this CA. While the nuke is going, the macro has the CA cast. Since the new system only has the first skill use itself, will this macro be broken?

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Old 02-24-2010, 02:25 AM   #46
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Can we get that toggle in then for melee/ranged auto attack so we don't have to macro all our melee CA's?

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Old 02-24-2010, 02:53 AM   #47
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Rothgar wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

once it sends the "last one" will it step to the next availible spell?

Not sure I understand your question.

If the macro reaches the last spell in the macro and sends it to the server for queuing, there's no place else for it to go.  The steps are executed top to bottom and then it's done.

I *think* this is what they're talking about.  As far as I understand it, this is how it works today (although I could be wrong).  Let's say I have a macro with 5 spells:

  1. /useability A
  2. /useability B
  3. /useability C
  4. /useability D
  5. /useability E
Here's what it does today (only showing each step after a spell has actually started casting):
1st time you click it, it casts A.  Then it queues B.  Then it overwrites that and queues C.  Then it overwrites that and queues D, then overwrites that and queues E.  (A cast, E Queued)
2nd time you click it, E is casting since it was queued with the first click. It tries to queue A but A is recovering.  It queues B.  It then queues C.  It then queues D.  It then tries to queue E but E is unavailable since it's currently being cast so D remains queued. (E casting, D Queued)
3rd time you click it, D is casting since it was queued with the second click. It tries to queue A but A is recovering.  It queues B.  It then queues C.  It then tries to queue D but D is unavailable because it's currently being cast so C stays queued. It then tries to queue E but E is recovering so C remains queued. (D casting, C Queued)
4th time you click it, C is casting since it was queued with the third click. It tries to queue A but A is recovering.  It queues B.  It then tries to queue C but C is casting so B remains queued.  It then tries to queue D but D is recovering so B stays queued. It then tries to queue E but E is recovering so B remains queued. (C casting, B Queued)
5th time you click it, B is casting since it was queued with the fourth click.  It tries to queue everything else but everything else is recovering.  (B casting, everything else recovering, unless something has already recovered in which case it will be queued)
At this point spamming it will cast/queue whichever ones recover first.  Casting from top to bottom, queuing from bottom to top because of how the queuing overwrites the previous one queued. 
I've personally never gone to this extreme and have kept my macros in line with cast one that effects the next spell, then cast the next spell, or HO starter then the first one in the HO.  This game currently allows 10 hotbars to be open at the same time.  That gives me 120 spots on my hotbars.  So far I've managed to squeeze the things I need onto these 120 spots without running out of room and without resorting to uber macros because of space.  Other's mileage may vary.  
But I'm not trying to pass any judgements or make any claims on one playstyle over another, simply trying to help the discussion with some additional info.  The more that is known about how people use the different features, the better off the devs will be in making changes that have the least negative impact.  There are lots of times that features in programs are used in ways that the original programmers never anticipated.  The more our EQ2 devs know about how the macros have been used, IMO, the better (they are probably well aware of everything I just typed above, but ya never know   )
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:02 AM   #48
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Do the devs realize that most players have 2,3 or even 4 full bars of abilities that they need to click?

From what I understand, this change will remove the ability to click a macro and have 2 spells cast. You'll have to click it twice in order to get the next ability to go through, right?

Most people with macros that want efficency after this change will probably have to split the macro into its two previous individual abilities, making us have even more buttons to click.

Is there any chance at all of consolidating spells in the near future? It's really getting way out of hand. The number one complaint from people who try the game is that the combat is "too spammy" and they're completely correct.

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Old 02-24-2010, 03:23 AM   #49
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akaglty wrote:

Can we get that toggle in then for melee/ranged auto attack so we don't have to macro all our melee CA's?

Yes, this is something we still plan on doing, but I don't have a date for it yet.  I will try to get it in as soon as possible.

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Old 02-24-2010, 03:24 AM   #50
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Rothgar wrote:

Several weeks ago we made a round of changes to improve server performance.  One of these changes was to throttle the amount of unnecessary command spam coming from the client as a result of the macro system.  This had a few side-effects that were noticable to the average player enough that we decided to revert those changes until a better solution could be implemented.

We think we have a better solution and will be making it available to the Test Server soon.  I just wanted to give you a heads-up with a quick explanation of these changes.

Macros will now be pre-processed on the client before sending anything to the server.  This extra "intelligence" will let us reduce the amount of spam and hopefully make them work better for you in the long run.

When you press a macro key, the first available ability will be sent to the server.  The last ability in the list will then be queued.  If the first first available spell has a zero casting time, the next available spell will also be sent. 

If you are currently casting or no spells in the macro are available for casting, the last ability will still be queued.  This mimics the existing behavior and still allows queuing to work.

These changes should achieve our goal without significantly impacting the way you currently use macros.

As always, your feedback is welcome!

PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE RESPONDING. 

This thread is an ongoing discussion.  Before you ask something that has been answered, please make sure you read the entire thread.

While I have read the entire thread I am still puzzled.

When you say "the first available ability" do you mean the first ability in the list that isn't on a cool down, or the first ability that isn't in the list AND is can be cast.

i.e.

If I create a macro as follows:

Master StrikeIce CometBall of FireI would expect Master Strike and Ball of Fire to execute for all encounters with creatures for which I have completed Lore and Legend, and expect Ice Comet and Ball of Fire to execute for all others.

Would this still happen?  Or would Master Strike and Ball of Fire be queue, with the result that Master Strike fails (no LnL) and only Ball of Fire executes?

Something else you might want to consider (to somewhat soften an implementation) would be to allow a chat command to be tied to spells and abilities, a option to right-click the spell/skill icon on hotbar and Add Chat option, this would pop a text box that the player can add a string that will be executed on successful execution of the ability.  This removes the need for macros for queuing /g Giving mana flow to %t   /useability Mana Flow %t.  Perhaps even make this text automatically apply to upgrades to the spell as and when players earn them (i.e. Mana Flow, Mana Flow II, Mana Flow III etc).

It may be prudent to consult on exactly what people want from macros (not actually how they use them currently, but what they are trying to achieve) in order to come up with a client-side solution that works for the player.

If this is railroaded, you'll simply see more people switching to other sorts of "client-side" macros which either lag as bad as the current in-game macros or worse.

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Old 02-24-2010, 03:31 AM   #51
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[email protected] wrote:

Do the devs realize that most players have 2,3 or even 4 full bars of abilities that they need to click?

From what I understand, this change will remove the ability to click a macro and have 2 spells cast. You'll have to click it twice in order to get the next ability to go through, right?

Most people with macros that want efficency after this change will probably have to split the macro into its two previous individual abilities, making us have even more buttons to click.

Is there any chance at all of consolidating spells in the near future? It's really getting way out of hand. The number one complaint from people who try the game is that the combat is "too spammy" and they're completely correct.

I play 3 different classes and they all have 5 or more hotbars, so I completely understand the problem.

You need to go back and re-read my first post.  The changes will not require that you split your hotbars and it won't break queuing.

Some of us would still like to take a look at spell consolidation as long as its nothing too drastic, but there are no definite plans at the moment.

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Old 02-24-2010, 04:51 AM   #52
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So let me get this right so I have a Mental Image.

CASTING? = YES

SPELL 1 Skip

SPELL 2 Skip

SPELL 3 Skip

SPELL 4 LAST? YES = Queue.

Click to repeat

CASTING? NO

SPELL 1 Available? NO

SPELL 2 Available? YES = CAST

SPELL 3 Skip

SPELL 4 LAST? YES = Queue

So now you Reduce a Potential 8 server requests (every spell on the list) down to 4? (first and last)

Is this a correct display of ORDER of OPERATION?

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Old 02-24-2010, 05:12 AM   #53
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Just a silly question but is this affecting all macros , like in the past it made a difference if you would "Drag" an Spell/Combat Art icon in the Macro (2 were Max) or if you would type /useability

Are both affected the same way ?

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Old 02-24-2010, 05:48 AM   #54
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guess biggest problem with the client side processing could be lag which sometimes gets spells out of sync and then shows ultra long reusetimers in ui. in that case only the last spell would ever be executed.

as you mentioned the gravitas/jesters cap macros that have same spell for multiple players since recast is limited by players having immunity rather than the spell recast will no longer work with this. not sure what to do about this?

maybe make a different macro version that has a lower maximum of useability spells but sends all to server for such cases (for gravitas i know that in most cases you only have 3-4 targets)? or even a useability command taht allows a list of names as targets and uses them in that order till it finds a possible target?

other than that its an ok solution in my opinnion.

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Old 02-24-2010, 05:57 AM   #55
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Could I also throw into the mix that another way of tackling a lot of these issues is to fix some decidedly dodgy spell mechanics in the way you have looked at harvesting.

That players need to write macro's to make spells functional (like Gravitas, Jesters Cap and now Time Warp, for example) should be an indication that certain spells themselves are not being implemented in a very workable fashion. In the case of these examples, its the immunity period for any one player thats the problem.

I'm sure there's a more elegant way of dealing with this that would mean players dont have to bash macros for the spells to work.

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Old 02-24-2010, 08:19 AM   #56
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my 0,02 :

1) If timers were supported in macros, the need to spam a  macro with 5-6 spells in it would go down drastically

2) If arguments were available in macro, spam would further reduce as much of the lag would be client side. Something like

If ability A availaible goto label 1

If ability B availaible goto label 2

...

Labe1

Cast A

End macro

Label2

Cast B

end macro

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Old 02-24-2010, 08:51 AM   #57
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I`m not for consolidating spells, I like the activety and choice of what I cast and when. I have never used a macro since I started playing at launch and I am a raid/myth main healer - I enjoy PLAYING my character. Yes I have a lot of hotbars, every spell in my book is available with a single click.

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Old 02-24-2010, 10:36 AM   #58
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Rothgar wrote:

wardman wrote:

I use a macro for my Gravitas on my dirge that attempts to cast it on up to 4 people, the first person without gravitas immunity gets the spell for a smooth transition from 1 person to the next. Is this what is being taken away? Will I have to remember (while fighting) the last person i cast it on and target through the raid window in order to cast it? As of now I have less than 2 seconds every 30 seconds that gravitas is not being used. IMO macros reduce the time it takes for targeting other players, especially when using an older computer, when it comes to high lag areas. On my laptop i sometimes have to click the persons name in the raid window a few times before my target will change. Macros allow me to never change my target but still get the same results as someone with a good gaming pc. My 2 cents.

Hmm, this will require a solution.  The reason this works now is because you send 20 commands to the server, each one with a different name.  It goes through all the checks on the server side to determine if that spell can be cast and checks to see if that player has immunity.  If he is immune, the spell fails and it moves on to the next spell until it finds a target that is not immune.   So yes, in this current situation it would always try to send the first command only, which might be a target that is immune.

The spam going to the server and contributing to lag is what we're trying to stop.  I will continue to think on a better solution.

Dirges (with Gravitas), Troubs (with Jcap), and Illies (with Timewarp) all use this implementation of up to 5 targets (for bards with t8 sig drum) and 4 targets for Illies. I do not know what other abilities require this. I think these are the only abilities that require this.

I hope a compromise will be found to allow this to work.

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Old 02-24-2010, 11:40 AM   #59
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I think allowing for a timer to be set for each spell would solve all the problems from what I can see.

Expamle of how it works now

spell A cast

Spell B qued

Spell B canceled Spell C Qued

Spell C cast

So in this example we have 5 commands sentback and forth, 2 cast, 2 qued, 1 canceled

With Timer option and no queing

Spell A cast

Pause till Spell A finished

Spell B cast

Pause till spell B finished

Spell C cast

In this example we would have 1 spell cast...wait... 1spell cast...wait... 1 spell cast

This would allow macros to work even better than they do now Plus reduce the Server load as only one spell is being sent at a time. win/win

It would still not fix the /useabilityonplayer issues though

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Old 02-24-2010, 12:04 PM   #60
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Rothgar wrote:

snowline wrote:

How would /cancel_spellcast macro's be affected? Cures, Cure curses, death saves, instant heals, stringing multiple instant abilities together how are they going to be impacted?

Can we still change what is queued for next ability (several times) during a long cast as the situation changes during the duration of that cast?

Can people make Jcap macro's to run down the priority of JCAP recipients until a person isn't immune?

My understanding of your initial post is you're trying to reduce the dataflow without changing gameplay, that's a great goal, but only if it's fully realised and it's the code changing not people's playstyle having to change.

Nothing other than useability commands would be affected, so you can still cancel spellcasts.  Things will queue the same way they always do, the only difference is that we won't be sending all of the queue commands, just the last one. 

If you're not casting, we won't be sending commands for abilities that are not ready yet (unless its the last one).

So, if I am understanding this correctly, it wont break text going to a channel? such as multiple /g or /gu or /r  commands?  such as used in pasting parses into a channel, or detrimental call out macros (like for Venril)?

How about item usage?  For example with the number of city items that may come in useful on a raid, such as mana regen, raise, AOE avoidance etc, it becomes problematic to have one of each version of each style on a hotbar (I have 10 hotbars already on my main), and I have coalesced these into a macro that has both city items in it.  Since there is a recast delay, only one gets used and I dont have to hunt through my bags to find the vague unclear icons and try to figure out which one I need to use (the tooltip of the name makes it faster on the macro icon).

Rothgar wrote:

The only issue I see at the moment that needs to be worked out are macros that spam the same ability with different targets.

What about extending the system to allow more than one recipient on the command, such that the list is passed to the server and it checks for the first one that it can cast on and handles it that way?   not ideal because it still requires the server to process those checks.

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