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Old 04-15-2009, 02:06 PM   #61
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I have no problem with the idea of simplifying the hearts/shards and I think most of the issues involved have already been brought up.  One thing I haven't seen addressed, however, is the fact that currently Hearts and Shards are different items that can coexist in inventory.  In other words, if you do happen to have a Necro and a Conjy in your group/raid then you can have up to six clicky mana items to use.  Granted, the situation in T8 has changed to the point where this may be a minor consideration (our raid force currently has no summoners of any kind), I think that it still should be considered when/if these spells are combined into one for both Summoners.

I know back in T7 when we had both Summoner types it was really nice to get a full load of six mana clickies.  There have been times I've really missed that utility.

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Old 04-15-2009, 02:08 PM   #62
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Skywarrior wrote:

I have no problem with the idea of simplifying the hearts/shards and I think most of the issues involved have already been brought up.  One thing I haven't seen addressed, however, is the fact that currently Hearts and Shards are different items that can coexist in inventory.  In other words, if you do happen to have a Necro and a Conjy in your group/raid then you can have up to six clicky mana items to use.  Granted, the situation in T8 has changed to the point where this may be a minor consideration (our raid force currently has no summoners of any kind), I think that it still should be considered when/if these spells are combined into one for both Summoners.

I know back in T7 when we had both Summoner types it was really nice to get a full load of six mana clickies.  There have been times I've really missed that utility.

Totally incorrect.

If you have ANY version of a heart you cannot receive another same with shards.  This was done sometime in EoF or RoK.  You are not able to have an Adept I, Adept III and Master.  One heart, one shard, period.

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Old 04-15-2009, 02:11 PM   #63
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Spritelady wrote:

Skywarrior wrote:

I have no problem with the idea of simplifying the hearts/shards and I think most of the issues involved have already been brought up.  One thing I haven't seen addressed, however, is the fact that currently Hearts and Shards are different items that can coexist in inventory.  In other words, if you do happen to have a Necro and a Conjy in your group/raid then you can have up to six clicky mana items to use.  Granted, the situation in T8 has changed to the point where this may be a minor consideration (our raid force currently has no summoners of any kind), I think that it still should be considered when/if these spells are combined into one for both Summoners.

I know back in T7 when we had both Summoner types it was really nice to get a full load of six mana clickies.  There have been times I've really missed that utility.

Totally incorrect.

If you have ANY version of a heart you cannot receive another same with shards.  This was done sometime in EoF or RoK.  You are not able to have an Adept I, Adept III and Master.  One heart, one shard, period.

Really?  I wonder when this changed.  Just goes to show you how long it's been since we've had a summoner active in our guild.  I can't argue your point as I simply do not recall the change to which you refer.

Also, to be clear, I was talking about a stack of Hearts and a stack of Shards - not a stack of Adept Hearts and a stack of Master Hearts.  So you are saying that it is no longer possible to have a stack of Hearts and a stack of Shards at the same time?

Edit: Since I could not argue this persons point from recollection I logged in and tested with current characters.  What I am left with is that Spritelady misunderstood my post when saying "Totally incorrect" as, according to my testing, I am totally correct.  You can currently have one stack of Hearts (any level or quality) and one stack of Shards (any level or quality) in inventory simultaneously, for a total of six mana charges.  You may not, of course, have more than one stack of either Hearts or Shards, irrespective of quality/level differences.

So, I still believe this fact should be a consideration if/when the spells are merged, albeit a minor one.

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Old 04-15-2009, 05:16 PM   #64
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There is no such thing as a stack lol.  It is a 3 charge item.

Your original post sounded like you meant you could have an Adept I, Adept III and a Master I shard and the same with hearts (you can have up to six clicky mana items to use) which indeed you could many moons ago, that however was changed.

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Old 04-15-2009, 05:59 PM   #65
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I LOVE the idea.

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Old 04-16-2009, 05:41 PM   #66
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How about focusing on real summoner issues? This is about the equivalent of upgrading our house pets in our time of need.

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Old 04-21-2009, 11:57 AM   #67
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Aeralik wrote:

While we are doing the consistant naming conventions, I was thinking of combining the summoner heart and shard spells into just one spell for each class. It seems redundant to have 5 versions plus a raidwide summon when you really only need one.  The summoned shard would then scale in relation to the level of the player using it.  Overall it would be low impact I think and remove some levels of unnecessary redundancy.

Obviously, the new spell would pick up the name players choose.  It would also pick up the highest version of the line so if you had one mastered out then the resulting merged spell would be a master spell as well.  It's a small change overall but seems to fit in with the scope of going to consistant naming only in this case you really don't need all of the upgrades.

Will this allow me to only have one conjurer heart in my hotbars ?  The other day i was trying to get why my shards count was down to zero just after the summoner cast the spell on me, the reason was that he has the raid version in master and the single target in adept 3.

It would be nice if clicking on a generic essence would activate the best you have in your inventory.

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Old 04-21-2009, 05:06 PM   #68
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I say go ahead with the change...but, make the adept/master I's droppable through all the tiers starting with the 1st tier you first get the spell.

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Old 04-22-2009, 11:14 PM   #69
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I like the idea of consolidating the spells into to main spells. I dont see a reason to have 10 different types of spells for the same thing. I will assume that you will still have both Hearts and Shards. I dont think that this will change the game play for people. I feel that it will make it simple. You dont have to switch out a new spell for every upgrade. I have missed a couple of those when I was leveling up fast. I would like to see the amount of power increased a lil bit more. I know some people dont use them alot and thats fine but I use them when I can and when it is a long fight they would be more of use if they gave a little more power. You dont have to make them give 2k power for 800 health.

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Old 04-22-2009, 11:34 PM   #70
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Xalmat wrote:

Issue: Upgrades.

If what you propose goes live, then that means all summoners in the game would need to farm tier 2 zones for their heart/shard spell, unless they already had a master in their spellbook. We already have to farm previous tiers for some spells that don't upgrade, and it's a royal pain in the butt as it is; all this would do is contribute to that.

Unless of course you remove rank from the spell altogether.

A bit late replying to this specific post, but research assistants will deal to this particular issue very well.

If hearts and shards become a T2 spell only, then it will be benefitial to all summoners, as a T2 spell will take less time to research than a T8 spell, even though you are upgrading the best version avalible.

The only issue with this is the fact that research assistants may not be coming in the same update as the spell changes. Then again, they may be.

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Old 04-23-2009, 05:50 AM   #71
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As part of the revamp to this spell line, would you please look at the possability of increasing the range on the spell, to many times i have had to leave the ranks of the squishies to run forward to "shard" the MT and got my butt blown off by an aoe.  Also due to the complexity of high end raid content, it is normally the case that the raid force is spread out over a large area, I am sure it was not your intension that Conjurers spend half their time running around trying to get in range of players to cast shards, rather than concentrating on their primary role of dps.

As shards are our only in-combat utility any improvements you can make to this spell line will be gratefully received.

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Old 04-23-2009, 09:08 AM   #72
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You know personally the changes I'd RATHER see to shards/hearts is not a consolidation of the spells, as handy as that would be its eliminating progression.  I'd like to see all levels/versions etc of the actual items consolidated, IE I have it hotbarred the game doesn't care what level/quality of shard/heart I get it will use it when I click that hotkey. 

I'd also would like to see them replenish a more reasonable ammount of power when used OR have a far lower reuse time or perhaps even lower reuse on say hearts larger replenish on shards diversity is always kinda cool.

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Old 04-23-2009, 09:44 AM   #73
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Simplifying shards seems a good idea.

I would keep hearts and shards separate, to keep the flavour of getting hearts from a necromancer.

I think 3 spells each would do - single target, group, raid.

Only one quality of each spell, so no need to hunt masters from lower tiers (though I do not have a problem with that in general).

The you could have only one type of shard and one type of heart, each doing a %age power regen. That removes the need for the spells to scale.

To make them more useful and distinguish between hearts and shards have shards give an elemental ward when used and have hearts give a noxious ward, based on a %age of the users health (or perhaps power).

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Old 04-24-2009, 03:22 PM   #74
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Hrmm, as hard as i try....i simply don't care.

The days of hearts and shards being a truelly useful utility have gone far to the wayside.

Both my Raid and single target are mastered, still they are barely wanted.

Making something barely wanted better, does not make it any more wanted.  No one is going to invite a summoner in the place of an enchanter no matter how much power new shards/hearts gave....with the gap of DPS being so small and the utility gap being so large. We will remain the choice only after all other (equally geared and played) mage classes has been exhausted. /bench

 

Many suggestions have been made and i realize the devs have their hands full executing massive and challenging series of tasks in the face of non-stop emo.

That said;

Please give some more attention to our core class issues and concerns, RoK was downright painful for us and TSO has only continued our suffering. 

Fix Summoners in '09

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Old 04-27-2009, 07:27 PM   #75
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I have this working here locally.  The line is now consolidated into one and it removes any existing hearts or shards prior to adding the new one.  The same thing applies to the raidwide heart and shards.

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Old 04-27-2009, 08:04 PM   #76
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Aeralik wrote:

I have this working here locally.  The line is now consolidated into one and it removes any existing hearts or shards prior to adding the new one.  The same thing applies to the raidwide heart and shards.

What about upgrades across tiers?! You STILL haven't addressed this.

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Old 04-27-2009, 10:27 PM   #77
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Xalmat wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

I have this working here locally.  The line is now consolidated into one and it removes any existing hearts or shards prior to adding the new one.  The same thing applies to the raidwide heart and shards.

What about upgrades across tiers?! You STILL haven't addressed this.

Aeralik wrote:

Obviously, the new spell would pick up the name players choose.  It would also pick up the highest version of the line so if you had one mastered out then the resulting merged spell would be a master spell as well.  It's a small change overall but seems to fit in with the scope of going to consistant naming only in this case you really don't need all of the upgrades.

There ya go. So go start farming masters before the change comes into effect. Since the "pez" will be scaling, you'll have to get a low-teir master in order to be able to bring about master "pez."

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Old 04-28-2009, 05:00 AM   #78
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I still fail to see the gain for us summoners out of this change. Why change spells that work, but don't have enough reason to be cast. The only fix we need is that it gives more power or is more helpful in any way. We don't need new names, nor less spells nor automatically upgrading spells.

Also if the spell automatically removes any existing shard in the inventory of the player, that's exactly what I DON'T want. I regulary "scan" all people in my raid and cast a shard on them to find out who used theirs (and didn't say anything). Those that still have one will give an error message, and those that need one let the spell cast.If the spell removes the existing shard, I have no way to see which people need one. Everyone has to tell me and I will need to keep track of them (or know their voices in voicechat) which means a lot more work and stress for me. It's actually worse than now if you change that, not an improvement.

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Old 04-28-2009, 05:38 AM   #79
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Bakual wrote:

I still fail to see the gain for us summoners out of this change. Why change spells that work, but don't have enough reason to be cast. The only fix we need is that it gives more power or is more helpful in any way. We don't need new names, nor less spells nor automatically upgrading spells.

Also if the spell automatically removes any existing shard in the inventory of the player, that's exactly what I DON'T want. I regulary "scan" all people in my raid and cast a shard on them to find out who used theirs (and didn't say anything). Those that still have one will give an error message, and those that need one let the spell cast.If the spell removes the existing shard, I have no way to see which people need one. Everyone has to tell me and I will need to keep track of them (or know their voices in voicechat) which means a lot more work and stress for me. It's actually worse than now if you change that, not an improvement.

Ignoring how horrendously inefficient it is to "scan" as you said, raidwide shards can only be improved by this change since the spell is out of combat only. As a primary group player, single target will be improved for me as well, since all that I'll need to do is target the person who's obviously in need of shards( can tell by power expenditure)  and just cast one without worry. If you're scanning as described, watching raidwide power usage ( or just knowing it if it's your regular raid) is as least as effective.

In current form the total changes are good but since the spell is underpowered and underwhelming now, it's hard to say it'll mean much.

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Old 04-28-2009, 05:56 AM   #80
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Aeralik wrote:

I have this working here locally.  The line is now consolidated into one and it removes any existing hearts or shards prior to adding the new one.  The same thing applies to the raidwide heart and shards.

I still think your first course of action should have been to make the spell functional.....then work out whether that functionality works with a scaling spell.

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Old 04-28-2009, 06:14 AM   #81
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Deson wrote:

Bakual wrote:

I still fail to see the gain for us summoners out of this change. Why change spells that work, but don't have enough reason to be cast. The only fix we need is that it gives more power or is more helpful in any way. We don't need new names, nor less spells nor automatically upgrading spells.

Also if the spell automatically removes any existing shard in the inventory of the player, that's exactly what I DON'T want. I regulary "scan" all people in my raid and cast a shard on them to find out who used theirs (and didn't say anything). Those that still have one will give an error message, and those that need one let the spell cast.If the spell removes the existing shard, I have no way to see which people need one. Everyone has to tell me and I will need to keep track of them (or know their voices in voicechat) which means a lot more work and stress for me. It's actually worse than now if you change that, not an improvement.

Ignoring how horrendously inefficient it is to "scan" as you said, raidwide shards can only be improved by this change since the spell is out of combat only. As a primary group player, single target will be improved for me as well, since all that I'll need to do is target the person who's obviously in need of shards( can tell by power expenditure)  and just cast one without worry. If you're scanning as described, watching raidwide power usage ( or just knowing it if it's your regular raid) is as least as effective.

In current form the total changes are good but since the spell is underpowered and underwhelming now, it's hard to say it'll mean much.

I agree that for the raidwide spell it is a good thing. For the single target I fail to see the benefit.I usually do that "scanning" between fights when I don't have to do something and don't want to spend 80% of my power for raidwide shards. And sometimes during fight if someone asks in Voicechat and I don't know who it was (probably down to two or three people that could have been it from their voice). Usually it's not a big deal for me, it would if the spell would cast everytime since then it's cast and recast time that is lost.

Even if you don't "scan" people, if you have a wrong person targeted during a fight and want to cast a shard cause probably a healer run out of it, then you have to wait for cast/recast again. Today you just get an error message.

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Old 04-28-2009, 06:55 AM   #82
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Sooo some time was lost to update an unused spell whithout making it worhwhile to cast at all !

Maybe the time would have been spend better fixing what the spell does instead of merging them !

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Old 04-28-2009, 11:00 AM   #83
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I also use the "scan" method for checking my raid force for shards, this saves everyone the trouble of having to send tells for shards and is very popular with the guys.  If the single shard spell will replace a full or part used shard stack then this will make this job a lot harder.  I also think that the possability of miss-targeting the shard then having to wait for recast will make this already weak utility even more of a pain. 

What I would like to see is the single shard remain as it is (as far as delivery is concerned) and make the Raid wide shard replace/replenish all the shards in the raid force.

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Old 04-28-2009, 12:38 PM   #84
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Farlix wrote:

I also use the "scan" method for checking my raid force for shards, this saves everyone the trouble of having to send tells for shards and is very popular with the guys.  If the single shard spell will replace a full or part used shard stack then this will make this job a lot harder.  I also think that the possability of miss-targeting the shard then having to wait for recast will make this already weak utility even more of a pain. 

What I would like to see is the single shard remain as it is (as far as delivery is concerned) and make the Raid wide shard replace/replenish all the shards in the raid force.

Jimjam 80 Conj Mistmoore

It being popular for you doing work other people should do is why you want to keep the spell the same? Surely the scan method has to be costing you in performance.

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Old 04-28-2009, 12:50 PM   #85
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I'm no summoner, so I may be way off base here, but wouldn't it be a better idea instead of scaling the power gains through the tiers to just make them percentage based?  Such as 5% app 1 to 15% Master 1 (or something like that)?  That would keep it more consistent through the levels and it would seems it would be easier to work with in the long run.

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Old 04-28-2009, 12:57 PM   #86
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Raidwide shards should be castable during combat,,,, we pay for it with pwr anyways.

Shards/Hearts need to give 15% pwr for Master.

Add small % chance to get full pwr.  <-----% increases with spell level

These changes would make the aa in the Shadow tree worth something!

Both classes are in need of utility revamp and this is a good place as any to start.

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Old 04-28-2009, 01:13 PM   #87
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[email protected] wrote:

I'm no summoner, so I may be way off base here, but wouldn't it be a better idea instead of scaling the power gains through the tiers to just make them percentage based?  Such as 5% app 1 to 15% Master 1 (or something like that)?  That would keep it more consistent through the levels and it would seems it would be easier to work with in the long run.

Percentage based spells get them in trouble all the time. It's actually easier to do them by number because the difference in 15% between a brawler and a mage is fairly great. Auto sacling trips them up too ( See: AP and Emergency spells/heals) but those can always be adjusted upward.

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Old 04-28-2009, 01:32 PM   #88
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Deson wrote:

Farlix wrote:

I also use the "scan" method for checking my raid force for shards, this saves everyone the trouble of having to send tells for shards and is very popular with the guys.  If the single shard spell will replace a full or part used shard stack then this will make this job a lot harder.  I also think that the possability of miss-targeting the shard then having to wait for recast will make this already weak utility even more of a pain. 

What I would like to see is the single shard remain as it is (as far as delivery is concerned) and make the Raid wide shard replace/replenish all the shards in the raid force.

Jimjam 80 Conj Mistmoore

It being popular for you doing work other people should do is why you want to keep the spell the same? Surely the scan method has to be costing you in performance.

Sorry, but i don't think you understand what people are saying, between fights i also "scan" the usual suspects starting with healers then tanks ect. After a long fight i might find one, but that is one shard i won't have to cast mid-fight.

Or have 4 people all of a sudden ask for new ones after the trash is cleared right before pulling the next named encounter, then having the entire raid wait for me to get my power back after casting raid shards.

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Old 04-28-2009, 01:37 PM   #89
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I get it, just still don't see how it's important enough to block an otherwise good change. The worst thing that happens is those people you "scan" have to suddenly make sure they ask for what they need and if 4 people are asking for shards, that's not scanning, that's responding.
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Old 04-28-2009, 01:50 PM   #90
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Joffee wrote:

Raidwide shards should be castable during combat,,,, we pay for it with pwr anyways.

Shards/Hearts need to give 15% pwr for Master.

Add small % chance to get full pwr.  <-----% increases with spell level

These changes would make the aa in the Shadow tree worth something!

Both classes are in need of utility revamp and this is a good place as any to start.

I for one would be very opposed to ever casting raid shards in combat.

If I, likely the greatest power eater in my guild, has the 80% power to cast it, it isn't needed.

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