EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > The Development Corner > Developer Roundtable
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-08-2009, 08:34 PM   #1
Aeralik

Developer
Aeralik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 672
Default

While we are doing the consistant naming conventions, I was thinking of combining the summoner heart and shard spells into just one spell for each class. It seems redundant to have 5 versions plus a raidwide summon when you really only need one.  The summoned shard would then scale in relation to the level of the player using it.  Overall it would be low impact I think and remove some levels of unnecessary redundancy.

Obviously, the new spell would pick up the name players choose.  It would also pick up the highest version of the line so if you had one mastered out then the resulting merged spell would be a master spell as well.  It's a small change overall but seems to fit in with the scope of going to consistant naming only in this case you really don't need all of the upgrades.

Aeralik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 08:36 PM   #2
Deson

Loremaster
Deson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,754
Default

Misread. Xalmat covered it.

__________________
I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom. I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break...
Deson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 08:39 PM   #3
Xalmat

EQ2Achieve.com
Xalmat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 5,895
Default

Issue: Upgrades.

If what you propose goes live, then that means all summoners in the game would need to farm tier 2 zones for their heart/shard spell, unless they already had a master in their spellbook. We already have to farm previous tiers for some spells that don't upgrade, and it's a royal pain in the butt as it is; all this would do is contribute to that.

Unless of course you remove rank from the spell altogether.

However, the heart/shards are the "equivalent" of the power transfer/power feeds that Enchanters and Sorcerers also get. Are you going to do the same thing for them, and make their power feeds scale with level, and remove all other tiers of their spells from their spellbooks?

And what about usefulness? As it is, these spells are largely rendered obsolete because of the incredible power regen that Enchanters (especially with their Mythicals) provide. Are you going to look into making these spells and items useful again?

For the record, unless these issues are addressed, I'm completely opposed to this idea.

__________________
EQ2Achieve - Your guide to all EverQuest II Achievements

Sess, Conjuror of PermafrostCyanide, Berserker of Permafrost
Xalmat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 09:10 PM   #4
Karaanan

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 14
Default

Xalmat wrote:

Issue: Upgrades.

If what you propose goes live, then that means all summoners in the game would need to farm tier 2 zones for their heart/shard spell, unless they already had a master in their spellbook. We already have to farm previous tiers for some spells that don't upgrade, and it's a royal pain in the butt as it is; all this would do is contribute to that.

Unless of course you remove rank from the spell altogether.

However, the heart/shards are the "equivalent" of the power transfer/power feeds that Enchanters and Sorcerers also get. Are you going to do the same thing for them, and make their power feeds scale with level, and remove all other tiers of their spells from their spellbooks?

And what about usefulness? As it is, these spells are largely rendered obsolete because of the incredible power regen that Enchanters (especially with their Mythicals) provide. Are you going to look into making these spells and items useful again?

For the record, unless these issues are addressed, I'm completely opposed to this idea.

QFE

I'd rather see you revamp the whole spell line into something useful rather than a measly amount of power that lets someone cast about one or two spells.

Just spent 60odd plat on the T8 single shard upgrade, I take it I can get this reimbursed then as I have lower tier versions mastered!

__________________
=========================
Kelemvorn......Lvl 90 Conjuror.

Ghalen.....Lvl 90 Shadowknight.
Karaanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 09:11 PM   #5
circusgirl

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,424
Default

Honestly, I don't see why the shards/hearts are any more well suited for this than any other spell.  My vote is a no here.  And yeah, spell upgrades would be a serious issue if you did.

circusgirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 09:13 PM   #6
Traldan Omegafyre

Loremaster
Traldan Omegafyre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 185
Default

Xalmat wrote:

Issue: Upgrades.

If what you propose goes live, then that means all summoners in the game would need to farm tier 2 zones for their heart/shard spell, unless they already had a master in their spellbook. We already have to farm previous tiers for some spells that don't upgrade, and it's a royal pain in the butt as it is; all this would do is contribute to that.

Unless of course you remove rank from the spell altogether.

However, the heart/shards are the "equivalent" of the power transfer/power feeds that Enchanters and Sorcerers also get. Are you going to do the same thing for them, and make their power feeds scale with level, and remove all other tiers of their spells from their spellbooks?

And what about usefulness? As it is, these spells are largely rendered obsolete because of the incredible power regen that Enchanters (especially with their Mythicals) provide. Are you going to look into making these spells and items useful again?

For the record, unless these issues are addressed, I'm completely opposed to this idea.

QFE.

It's nice that you want to 'fix' the non-broken aspect of these spells.  Please make them useful again also, if you're taking a look at the spell.  Add SOMETHING to them.  A temporary buff to some stat?  Give us SOME sort of must-have utility.

__________________
Traldan

Tralnak - 80 Necro/80 Tailor - Mistmoore - Divinus
Traldan Omegafyre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 10:31 PM   #7
ArivenGemini

Loremaster
ArivenGemini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,260
Default

Aeralik wrote:

Obviously, the new spell would pick up the name players choose.  It would also pick up the highest version of the line so if you had one mastered out then the resulting merged spell would be a master spell as well.  It's a small change overall but seems to fit in with the scope of going to consistant naming only in this case you really don't need all of the upgrades.

I know one of the things that the devs are considering is the research assistant to help getting spells...what about something that would let us exchange say a spell from the next level back down into something of the previous level of our choice... so a t8 spell trades down to t7... and if it was an adept 1, it stays at ad1,  etc..

this would alleviate some of the farming difficulties for the nonupgradable spells and prevent people using it to get easy masters at the top levels.

__________________
ArivenGemini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 11:10 PM   #8
hellfire

Loremaster
hellfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 1,842
Default

Simple solution to  simple problem.....make this spell like coh or split paw spell aquenous stone where it doesnt have a quality/tier.

Pct that reamains the same  through all levels.

10 pct power back for 20 pct health taken away.

__________________
Summoner pets are 1/3 the dps of a summoner and yet our stats and modifiers do not affect them.Since a pet is 1/3 a summoners dps,a summoner receives 2/3 benefit from gear when compared to any other class.

SHARED STATS AND MODIFIERS ARE A MUST!

FIX SUMMONERS IN 08!

FIX SUMMONERS IN 09!

FIX SUMMONERS IN 10!


2011 and Finally we are Fixed!

/Rides off into the sunset
hellfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 11:30 PM   #9
eqaddictedfool

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 276
Default

Now I'm no summoner but how would you work out weather you were casting a single target or the whole raid? and whats the cast time going to look like? I know on our raids the summoners are often asked to give a shard in the middle of a long fight such as levi.

eqaddictedfool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 11:30 PM   #10
Xalmat

EQ2Achieve.com
Xalmat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 5,895
Default

I'm all for it Bigron, but that would be too easy to implement.

[email protected] wrote:

Now I'm no summoner but how would you work out weather you were casting a single target or the whole raid? and whats the cast time going to look like? I know on our raids the summoners are often asked to give a shard in the middle of a long fight such as levi.

Right now on Live, single target shard has a 2 second cast, 30 second recast, and costs a little bit of health to summon. Raidwide shard costs 80% mana, 10 seconds to cast, 10 minute recast, and can NOT be cast mid-combat.

__________________
EQ2Achieve - Your guide to all EverQuest II Achievements

Sess, Conjuror of PermafrostCyanide, Berserker of Permafrost
Xalmat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 11:51 PM   #11
Rijacki

Tester
Rijacki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,842
Default

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Honestly, I don't see why the shards/hearts are any more well suited for this than any other spell. 

I think that's the point.

__________________
Rijacki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 12:10 AM   #12
eqaddictedfool

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 276
Default

Xalmat wrote:

I'm all for it Bigron, but that would be too easy to implement.

[email protected] wrote:

Now I'm no summoner but how would you work out weather you were casting a single target or the whole raid? and whats the cast time going to look like? I know on our raids the summoners are often asked to give a shard in the middle of a long fight such as levi.

Right now on Live, single target shard has a 2 second cast, 30 second recast, and costs a little bit of health to summon. Raidwide shard costs 80% mana, 10 seconds to cast, 10 minute recast, and can NOT be cast mid-combat.

So you would still need 2 spells it sounds like to cast MGB (see what i did there) hearts and shards. 1 for quick single target casting and the other for raidwide?

eqaddictedfool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 12:12 AM   #13
Xalmat

EQ2Achieve.com
Xalmat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 5,895
Default

Yes. As I interpret it though, we would still have two spells, one for raidwide, one for single, if Aeralik's proposal went live.

__________________
EQ2Achieve - Your guide to all EverQuest II Achievements

Sess, Conjuror of PermafrostCyanide, Berserker of Permafrost
Xalmat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 02:25 AM   #14
Grumpy_Warrior_01

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 528
Default

While you're working on the spell, it would be nice if it would replenish up to three hearts/shards when cast, so the recipient wouldn't need to destroy one or two in their bags in order to get a fresh casting.  Would save unnecessary frustration on raids at least.

Grumpy_Warrior_01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 04:08 AM   #15
Calain80

Loremaster
Calain80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,309
Default

The only thing I mind with this change is, if we will get one item per quality we can put on a hotbar or do we get 75 items or still at least 5? If you would get only one item per tier it would be ok.
Calain80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 04:31 AM   #16
Emlar_from_Halas

Loremaster
Emlar_from_Halas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 350
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Simple solution to  simple problem.....make this spell like coh or split paw spell aquenous stone where it doesnt have a quality/tier.

Pct that reamains the same  through all levels.

10 pct power back for 20 pct health taken away.

Probably too simple.

You might be ok to trade 1K2 mana with 2K Hp. A tank would not suffer 4K7 HP for 1K mana.Leave hearts and shards as they are please.

__________________
Emlar_from_Halas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 06:55 AM   #17
Zorastiz
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Dressed To Kill
Rank: Prince of Darkness

Loremaster
Zorastiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 955
Default

Honestly if you are actually going to spend some time on Summoners why would you choose this?

Ask US what needs to be fixed, let's get to the crux of Summoner issues and forget heart / shard spells, really who cares about this?

__________________


Zorastiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 08:04 AM   #18
Joffee

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17
Default

The simple fact that summoners were taken into account is a positive note and I have no issues with that. This thread does not stem off a fix summoners thread, it is to make spell names more simple for communication purposes between players and reduce the complexities for new players in general. The apparent hic up is the Shard spell availability at higher content, as well as I can tell. 

edited: there was no other pst below this one at edit time

Joffee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 09:19 AM   #19
Whilhelmina
Server: Storms
Guild: Les Furies d Innoruuk
Rank: Matriarches

Tester
Whilhelmina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France (Storms)
Posts: 3,161
Default

Ok for the change, just be carefull of the system choosen for updating those spells as was said.

__________________
French Tradeskill Guide and my houses.

Whilhelmina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 11:53 AM   #20
Lantis

Loremaster
Lantis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 943
Default

I say leave it as is.  Consolidating the whole line into one single spell solves some issues (not having to put multiple qualities on the hotbar for instance), but it creates other issues.  In the end, it would only be shifting the (rather minor) issues related to this spell to different ones.

Pro:

 - No need to tell everyone to update their hotbars when you get a Master version or a new tier.

Cons:

 - Having to farm low tiers to upgrade it - Removing quality upgrades to solve the previous issue would be a forced fix that would take away some of the richness of the spell line(And I don't consider Research Assistants a solution)

Lantis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 12:17 PM   #21
Xalmat

EQ2Achieve.com
Xalmat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 5,895
Default

I don't see the issue with having people update their hotbars. As I recall, shaman classes summon (in a less direct fashion, the mechanic escapes me) a clicky heal item that follows the same naming system that Shards do, and yet you don't hear them complaining about it.

The main annoyance is when your raidwide shard spell is a different rank than your single target spell, but there's little to nothing that can be done to change this. In those cases I just tell people to set two hotbuttons, one for adept 3 shard, 1 for master 1 shard.

As far as changing the hotbars as you level up, usually this is done once every 15 levels or so. And between replacing your entire hotbar with spell upgrades as you level up anyway, what's one more button? Maybe having different ranks cast by different summoners is an annoyance at lower levels, but once you hit 80 it becomes a non-issue.

__________________
EQ2Achieve - Your guide to all EverQuest II Achievements

Sess, Conjuror of PermafrostCyanide, Berserker of Permafrost
Xalmat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 01:23 PM   #22
Aeralik

Developer
Aeralik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 672
Default

With a single version it would be pretty easy to update the spell to remove any existing hearts and then replace them with the new version.  Right now there are just so many different hearts and shards to keep track of for each tier and the system has to check your inventory each cast for all the different types as well.  This just adds unnecessary complexity to things when the spell really has a simple purpose to summon an item which people then use when desired.

Aeralik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 01:34 PM   #23
Xalmat

EQ2Achieve.com
Xalmat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 5,895
Default

Aeralik wrote:

With a single version it would be pretty easy to update the spell to remove any existing hearts and then replace them with the new version.  Right now there are just so many different hearts and shards to keep track of for each tier and the system has to check your inventory each cast for all the different types as well.  This just adds unnecessary complexity to things when the spell really has a simple purpose to summon an item which people then use when desired.

Again, you're missing the problem with this approach. What about upgrades, as outlined in my first reply to this thread?

__________________
EQ2Achieve - Your guide to all EverQuest II Achievements

Sess, Conjuror of PermafrostCyanide, Berserker of Permafrost
Xalmat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 01:52 PM   #24
hellfire

Loremaster
hellfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 1,842
Default

Aeralik wrote:

With a single version it would be pretty easy to update the spell to remove any existing hearts and then replace them with the new version.  Right now there are just so many different hearts and shards to keep track of for each tier and the system has to check your inventory each cast for all the different types as well.  This just adds unnecessary complexity to things when the spell really has a simple purpose to summon an item which people then use when desired.

Great ........  shard with no tier or quality that scales...now that thats settled on to next problems  SMILEY

__________________
Summoner pets are 1/3 the dps of a summoner and yet our stats and modifiers do not affect them.Since a pet is 1/3 a summoners dps,a summoner receives 2/3 benefit from gear when compared to any other class.

SHARED STATS AND MODIFIERS ARE A MUST!

FIX SUMMONERS IN 08!

FIX SUMMONERS IN 09!

FIX SUMMONERS IN 10!


2011 and Finally we are Fixed!

/Rides off into the sunset
hellfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 01:53 PM   #25
Noaani

Loremaster
Noaani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,077
Default

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Honestly, I don't see why the shards/hearts are any more well suited for this than any other spell.  My vote is a no here.  And yeah, spell upgrades would be a serious issue if you did.

Unlike any other spell in the game, every time this spell is cast on a player, the game needs to run 35 item checks on the items that player has, just to see if the spell takes effect (5 heart/shard spells, 7 levels of each spell that need to be checked). That sort of thing probably uses up a fair amount of system resources, and its an easy assumption to make that a raidwide heart/shard spell would use more system resources than any other player cast spell in the game.

From a technical standpoint, it does make sence to change this to a single spell, but as Xalmat bought up, doing so does open up other issues.

To me, the only way this becomes a possiblity is if all quality levels are removed as well, with the summoned hearts and shards working on a percentage base instead.

The problem with that is it leaves all summoners with spent plat that they wasted on spell upgrades.

__________________

The superior man knows what is right.
The inferior man knows what will sell.

Confucius

Noaani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 02:16 PM   #26
Deson

Loremaster
Deson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,754
Default

Noaani wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Honestly, I don't see why the shards/hearts are any more well suited for this than any other spell.  My vote is a no here.  And yeah, spell upgrades would be a serious issue if you did.

Unlike any other spell in the game, every time this spell is cast on a player, the game needs to run 35 item checks on the items that player has, just to see if the spell takes effect (5 heart/shard spells, 7 levels of each spell that need to be checked). That sort of thing probably uses up a fair amount of system resources, and its an easy assumption to make that a raidwide heart/shard spell would use more system resources than any other player cast spell in the game.

From a technical standpoint, it does make sence to change this to a single spell, but as Xalmat bought up, doing so does open up other issues.

To me, the only way this becomes a possiblity is if all quality levels are removed as well, with the summoned hearts and shards working on a percentage base instead.

The problem with that is it leaves all summoners with spent plat that they wasted on spell upgrades.

It's not wasted upgrades, they were used when they were relevant.  I don't mind the change as long as Xalmat's issues are dealt with and that design isn't impacted when coming up with something more useful for the spell.

__________________
I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom. I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break...
Deson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 02:30 PM   #27
Lantis

Loremaster
Lantis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 943
Default

Xalmat wrote:

I don't see the issue with having people update their hotbars. As I recall, shaman classes summon (in a less direct fashion, the mechanic escapes me) a clicky heal item that follows the same naming system that Shards do, and yet you don't hear them complaining about it.

You don't run PUGs often SMILEY  Happened to me again only two nights ago.  PUG healer asked me three times for shards despite having already some.  When I pointed out that he should update his hotbar, he realised he had Ad3 on his hotbar, while I was giving him M1s.

Can't expect people to have two shards and two hearts on their hotbar at all time - some of us already are running out of space with all the clicky items, spells, and macros we need to keep at hand.

But bottom line, yes while this is a valid issue, it's definitely not one serious enough to justify changing the way the shard summoning spells work.  I was just pointing out the potential advantages, as small as they might be.

As for the shaman item...  They are not as widely used as shards IMHO.  Never used them at all myself.

Lantis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 02:43 PM   #28
Boyar

Loremaster
Boyar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 146
Default

Aeralik wrote:

With a single version it would be pretty easy to update the spell to remove any existing hearts and then replace them with the new version.  Right now there are just so many different hearts and shards to keep track of for each tier and the system has to check your inventory each cast for all the different types as well.  This just adds unnecessary complexity to things when the spell really has a simple purpose to summon an item which people then use when desired.

Hopefully by "single" you mean there will be a single single-target spell and a single raid-wide spell. One shouldn't need to drop 80% mana for the raid just because one or two people are running low.

__________________
Boyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 02:44 PM   #29
Lantis

Loremaster
Lantis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 943
Default

Emlar_from_Halas wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Simple solution to  simple problem.....make this spell like coh or split paw spell aquenous stone where it doesnt have a quality/tier.

Pct that reamains the same  through all levels.

10 pct power back for 20 pct health taken away.

Probably too simple.

You might be ok to trade 1K2 mana with 2K Hp. A tank would not suffer 4K7 HP for 1K mana.Leave hearts and shards as they are please.

If they wanted to go with a quality-less spell, no need to make it percentage based.  This game already has mechanics involving level-based scaling, so it could still be relying on a "fixed amount of health returns fixed amount of power" system.  The whole mentoring system revolves around it.   As Aeralik pointed out, the amount would scale based on the level of the shard user.

This would also be the time to review the amount of power it gives, considering how this spell is gradually being phased out by gear and chanters anyway.

Frankly, this should probably be tossed in the pile of fixes the summoner class needs, not in the name change project IMHO.  Not sure it's valid to discuss and implement any change at this point, and have to scrap it all once the summoner class gets looked at and tweaked.

Lantis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 02:48 PM   #30
Zorastiz
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Dressed To Kill
Rank: Prince of Darkness

Loremaster
Zorastiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 955
Default

Joffee wrote:

This thread does not stem off a fix summoners thread, it is to make spell names more simple for communication purposes between players and reduce the complexities for new players in general.

I still don't understand why this is necessary?

I as most of you had to figure it out, look it up, ask a friend or something like that, it just seems like unecessary work to me.

EQ2 Wiki anyone?

__________________


Zorastiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:30 AM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.