Hypothetical question(s)

[nimrodblack_EQ2]

Viable approach. I think the combination is a good one even after reading all the opposing opinions in this thread.

[Deson]

But, if marketability is fixed then with it so is leveling.Besides, what's the point in getting there fast if everything is still worthless? It's not that I'm opposed to leveling speed/resource consumption fixes(I've posted on both before) it's that it seems to be everyones prime focus. It's more important to address the class marketability first without worry of leveling or other numbers issues that are purely matters of perception and then to address those things than it is to address them as a primary issues and potentially flood a class with more worthless stuff that also kills future market expansion.

[TaleraRis]

Leveling is *not* fixed if you fix marketability. You still have classes that take longer and have higher resource requirements. The market value of the products they can produce does not change that fact. You can't just focus on marketability only, just as you can't focus on leveling only, because they both contribute to the competitiveness of a tradeskill class among other tradeskill classes.

[Deson]

TaleraRis wrote:

Leveling is *not* fixed if you fix marketability. You still have classes that take longer and have higher resource requirements. The market value of the products they can produce does not change that fact. You can't just focus on marketability only, just as you can't focus on leveling only, because they both contribute to the competitiveness of a tradeskill class among other tradeskill classes.

The TS classes that actually compete against each other all level at about the same rate; why does someone who wants to sell weapons even care about someone who sells spells?And Marketability certainly does have the chance to offset leveling. Look at tailors. Even with high resource costs, leveling got a lot smoother when they added the fluff wear and more so when they added imbues to weapon pouches.From another perspective, how many people complain when their stuff is flying off the broker? Provisioners are good here and metal workers have nothing on them for grind. How many Provi's have you seen complain compared to any one else?  While the resource usage definitely has to be weighed out, that's not so much a level speed issue as and issue with recipe design itself.

[TaleraRis]

My 52 tailor makes money hand over fist, but is still doesn't offset the fact that she's only 52 still and plods along because of high resource costs. Giving her class more marketability didn't resolve her leveling issue at all, and in some ways made it worse, because now I have more cloth using 10+ roots and spend more time out harvesting for her just to have enough to go around. Especially with writs, which have a habit of focusing on cloth a lot, and after the pristine bonuses run out, writs are what I end up doing to help contribute to my guild, rather than just grinding out leather pieces over and over. I don't even want to get into resource consumption and availability of my weaponsmith, who is also at 52, while my sage is sitting at 57 and averages 2 or 3 levels a night on a minimum of resources. You're saying marketability will fix all and don't bother with leveling. I'm saying fix them *both* because they're both core issues making these classes unwanted.

[dracokalen]

yes, yes, please yes

[Deson]

I'm saying fix marketability before touch leveling.Sorry about the lack of clarity It's better to have the classes actually be viable than anything else. After that work of the other stuff. For me I see the order of precedence as marketability/viability of the classes, resource usage vs. resource availability and after all those things are touched, then mess with leveling. As to your tailor specific issue, I don't see how the tailor changes I mentioned affected you at all negatively. The recipe resource changes did but, the marketability was nothing but positive. Fluff clothes don't show up on writs and don't have to be ground and imbues don't show up either. So, how much does your sage make compared to your tailor?

[TaleraRis]

That's where we differ, because I see the leveling issue as part of the viability of a class. It certainly affects who I'm in the mood to level up first in a tier versus who I would rather have wait. And I don' t end up selling a lot on my sage. She's more for personal use. But my 55 jeweler and my 60 alchemist both also have no issues making coin and they both level faster and easier than the tailor. If the focus is only at marketability and leveling is left to the wayside, that's fine for those at the top, because they have marketability through all tiers and especially at the higher ones where marketability is already decent as is. But while those who aren't at the top might have some change in marketability, it still doesn't help them level and that class will still have a negative view in comparison to other classes who can level much more easily. If you made the marketability of less-desired classes higher than that of more-desired classes, then you might make that leveling treadmill seem more attractive, but then you create an imbalance in marketability among classes, rather than a leveling imbalance. Plus that might draw others to it, leading to more competition for resources and worsening the resource consumption/leveling problem within the class itself. That's why I think they should both be addressed at once. It will just either continue some of the same problems later on not to, or will cause new problems which need to be fixed down the line. Better to handle it all from the beginning if it's going to be handled at all.

[Deson]

But, if we let arbitrary numbers be our guide to balancing you end up making recipes that really are nothing but fodder.Just as you have issues with the grind,I have issues with grinding for nothing. If the classes are well structured from the start, then everything else is much easier to balance out than letting those numbers get in the way. If they get marketability right, they could very well get rid of what's causing this perception issue- pristine bonus- and address xp as a flat value across all classes. At current, if you eliminate scholars from the comparison, every other class levels at approximately the same rate. Even the issue of tailors that you talk about is more an issue of resource demand vs. resource availability. I'd rather have a viable product and a hard path than a mediocre product list and an easy one. Maybe I can have both but, those are definitely my priorities.

[Nere]

I don't have anything to contribute to this thread except for my thanks. I'm REALLY happy to see this kind of dialog from the dev team. Thank you!

[Rijacki]

If the ability to grind a class to max level is all that matters and crafting is -just- a sideline activity destined to be only subordinate to adventuring and/or as a money sink for adventurers, then yes, this is a solution.  It adds nothing. It removes potential. It sets a precedent, at least for tradeskills, that if the devs don't feel like building content for crafting, just eliminate some classes (call it combining) and presto, everything is "fixed". *sigh* Where have been the countless promises to enhance crafting?  We were told that LU#24's streamlining was so that enhancements to crafting would be easier to add.  We've been told several times that crafting will be improved or have some added feature and each time.. oh well. If this happens, will I still play?  probably.  But.. I'll expect it to happen again when the get tired of developing for 7 classes, or 5, or 3, or even 1 total tradeskill class. *shrug* The cynical side of me has a sinking feeling the "hypothetical" wasn't all that hypothetical and is on its way to happening, they just wanted to gauge how upset the nay-sayers would be.

[Deson]

Wow Rijacki, you've really gotten cynical. For what it's worth, I think Illucide really did mean this to be hypothetical. It's not like this idea is new and has even been suggested by tradeskillers even before we got nerfed. While I think he's wrong in his view on carpenters, weaponsmiths are a dead end class and it's extremely difficult for them to gain market share considering all the competition from drops and other TS classes. Woodworkers aren't much better of either, being saved pretty much by bows, arrows and totems but, I will say I still think woodworkers are fully viable on their own. While you might disagree, you do have to like that he put something on the table and admitted design flaws dating back to pre-launch.The precedent that I see it setting is a willingness to address the issue- even if I think the limited presented scope makes it a losing proposition.

[Tri]

i find it's a great idea, as they are complementary TS classes. thumbs up if this goes live

[kyrr]

Well, I'm not gonna get all in depth here. I think that's been taken care of.

I would like to say that I never understood why you had to chose to make armour or weapons. Both are metalworkers. Same for the carp/woodworker (I believe the word that Ilucide was looking for was Carpentry).

Oh, and while I'm writing anyways I noticed that the crafter trainer still tells you that craftsmen make instruments. Can you remove that word or add the recipes so new players aren't confused?

BTW, just wanted to thank Ilucide for all the communication. I think he beat that "other" dev's post within a day or two.

[Powers]

kyrrah wrote:

Well, I'm not gonna get all in depth here. I think that's been taken care of.

I would like to say that I never understood why you had to chose to make armour or weapons. Both are metalworkers. Same for the carp/woodworker (I believe the word that Ilucide was looking for was Carpentry).

Oh, and while I'm writing anyways I noticed that the crafter trainer still tells you that craftsmen make instruments. Can you remove that word or add the recipes so new players aren't confused?

BTW, just wanted to thank Ilucide for all the communication. I think he beat that "other" dev's post within a day or two.

Woodworkers work only with wood.  Carpenters work with wood, ore, roots, and occasionally gemstone.  Big difference. Also, musical instrument recipes are already in.  Or at least, they were in at launch and for a long time afterward; if they've removed them, it was relatively recently.  Trouble is, they don't do anything. Powers  &8^]

[Aith]

I'm sorry Ilucide, but tack my vote up as another firm No on your possible crafting idea.  As always it's wonderful how you like to hash out ideas (you've been very gracious to speak with on the test server when there), however, you've opened a rotten can of worms here that won't grow anything other than arguments over who needs a ‘nerf' in the end and who needs ‘fixing' because of it; and then we would be at this point all over again only with very little left to loose.  You have a base system set, regardless of what should or should not have been done in game beginning, we're 2 yrs into it and such changes will only make a larger mess now.  Merging will never be your answer.

As Tradeskill in general stands, unfortunately, it's stagnating. With grinding endlessly to max end as the games set way to level, no matter what you merge, paste or use gum to stick together, that fact won't change.  As has been said in the past, a better way to look at things instead of grinding and/or merges, is to add in more for Tradeskillers to do to keep the xp flowing in.  In turn, crafters have more options on how they wish to level their characters, which amounts to less frustrated ‘grind' time.  

Now I cannot stress enough, that anything I type is totally aside from the fact that you have a lot of unfinished work that needs doing in Tradeskills. i.e. full armor sets for newbie characters, recipes promised but never finished, items that need to be replaced in game, etc. And for some their choice of leveling will always be to grind regardless of what you include in the game, be it Adventure or Tradeskill, it's the way they choose to do their toons.  But for a good majority a lot of frustration can be eliminated by including the options to do Tradeskill quests/projects as a viable way for Tradeskill xp gain; work orders were on the right track but with little substance beyond.  We have an established system of quests for adventures, now lets include the Tradeskills in some of it as well.  In the total scheme of things, the time it would take you to merge and bug test 4 classes down to 2, would be the same as expanding on what you have minus the frustration and confusion of your player base. Not to mention, if I wanted to play a simple game with very little replay potential and cardboard classes, I'd go play any number of other games on the market today.  No thank you.

The husband and I made one crafter of every class. As usual for the typical ability of outfitting characters, back in the beginning boy was it needed, but also out of love of crafting in general.  So in the effort to give you more than a simple No I don't agree, here's few ideas and a couple of examples I've read so far that were definitely worth mentioning again.

We have an abundance of mobs in game, dropping craftable items is one way that you can use all Tradeskill classes (You had a neat idea with The Nest in barren sky, expand on that but in smaller ways with exquisite or even smaller chest drops.)  A few recipes and each class could make something meaningful out of them be it items for the home or gear, each a little ‘uber' in its own right.  Make the spectrum larger scale instead of a few heritage or raid related quests that involved crafting as you did with Kingdom of the Sky.  Yes this means more recipes to think up, but from what I've seen your not lacking support, assistance or ideas from most of your Crafter base; however,  if you ask for recipe ideas you may end up buried in them until next Frostfell

Something my family has noticed that seems to be over looked is the Ironforge Estate as a possible crafting idea.  One definition for an estate is a ‘large impressive piece of  property or residence'.  So far we can gain titles, items, clothes and status from doing work orders and/or tasks for the Ironforge...what about gaining the right to live on a small portion of the estate.  Lore wouldn't be a concern.  A simple gate or road sign could be a zone in point to make it work like rooms, only it would be a piece of property that could be built upon.  Give some choices of home styles from small to extravagate, possible gardens, etc.  The ideas could be limitless, on a small scale mind you, allowing more freedom with crafting and opening up more things that need doing by each class as well as new recipes and new areas for Tradeskill xp gain ( and who says it would have to be your own plot of land you build on, help someone else or hire someone to do your work for you). If you tied it to status earned with Ironforge there isn't a way to ‘cheat the system' so if your willing to work you get your share with no competing for areas, plots, etc that other games have had in the past and has shown all to well breeds greed, aggression, and resentment in abundance due to supply and demand.

Small forms of area decay/repairs could be implemented- repairing Griffon Towers to keep them functioning safely, Spires to help keep the welding in line, buildings, fences, replanting trees or crops for certain towns, bridges, docks, boats, Nettleville restoration project nothing was ever done with but it's there (all starter towns have a good setting for that and another ‘outdoor' introduction to crafting as well with other restoration projects, Qeynos Harbor has a boat building area but no jobs for crafting come from there yet. General repairs to Qeynos, Freeport and Kelethin are an easy means for trade skill xp gain to keep from crafting in one spot all day. The bell at the harbors at one point you allowed us to a goodly chunk of the zones, and then put it back to just Thundering Steppes/Nek forest, add in a quest that if you help to repair boats you can open up more areas on that bell to travel (two part reward there, you get to zone to more places when you pay and you can gain trade skill xp. Or you could make this a repeatable world event due to stormy seas)  Working for the Far Seas Trading Company, they've alluded to jobs for them in the lower levels if you've done enough so there's enormous room for growth there. ( Far Seas by trading goods with both Qeynos and Freeport would also give you activities for the neutral city of Haven as well as trade skills)   General npc's..  for example, how many times has Farmer Walcot asked the newbs to kill beetles and scarecrows, well how about planting him some crops or crafting him some new scarecrows to replace all the ones we've blown up. Lakes get polluted over time help clean them, craft a needed cure.  Aqua ducts, come on, show me one that doesn't need repairs and/or blockage removed (i.e. craft some shovels so the workers can remove the blockage with or fix it yourself).  Many many npcs can, when asked by you if they have any work, if you are the adventuring type or trade skill and go from there.  Step away from the world being stagnate and allow for the players to assit keeping it going, thus making the role of crafter a much more needed skill, the game more ‘immersive' and more options aside from merely grinding levels to get xp or adventuring as your only means to succeed in the world of Norrath.

Carpenters have a ton of furnishings in game that they can't make, art department wouldn't have to do a thing in that regard, just need you guys to give us back items lost from past changes and recipes for all the new things.  Take a look at the furniture houses in Freeport and Qeynos and you'll see many things no longer in game.  For furnishing to add it's limitless. Everything you have in game could be a potential recipe.  Fey, Tunarian, Aviak, Mistmoor, Palace of the Awakened, The Nest, The Menagerie, etc all come to mind. Ice sculptures, plants! Wow, we really need more plants for our rooms, you can only have so many potted palms.  The herb boxes for provisioners was a wonderful idea and could be expanded on.  Not only would that allow for more recipes but it would also give the provisoners something a little on the special side.  Talk about feeling left out when it comes to the ‘rare/special' things to craft. Scintillating stones, pratically the bane of your existence, make a use for that silly rare in that bush  Food that you can interact with, Frostfell this year as an example, that was not only a Very cute idea but something that would be neat to be able to add to. (Although placeable food would be more believable crafted from a provis but you get the idea)

People have already mentioned ‘fun versions of chain etc' as something for armor smiths.  The silver cloth armor you can buy after completing Tombs of the Night expansion pack comes to mind here (Silver armor cloth gear for a mage, how novel an idea) How about expanding on that persons idea and give more gear at lvl 1 stages that everyone can wear and enjoy.  Wouldn't be something you would need to remake, just more recipes for them to craft and more requests of things to buy.

For weapons smiths you've had quite a few good suggestions on what they're lacking and what they could use to beef them up. Adding to that a few ‘fun' weapons would be entertaining, holidays perhaps (spooky things for Halloween etc) or flashy things to mess around with when just goofing off with family and friends.  I wouldn't mind seeing some swords or wands with goofy side effects, perhaps a proc that has a chance to turn monsters into some oddball thing like a midget, a roach, toad... or if it backfires.. you, that would certainly get some laughs. ( I wouldn't mind seeing a big buffed barbarian tank turned into a bunny)

Woodworkers, those items with magic, fire, cold damage/resistances or procs on certain monsters are a nice idea. (Yes, I have to agree, you rather kicked yourselves in the bum with this adornment thing. They're wonderful and have added some interesting depth/choices to the game, but they unfortunately point out more clearly what some crafting classes are lacking as well.) The range of choices that would allow for arrows and thrown weapons could be fun if nothing else. I wouldn't mind seeing some flaming or ice arrows fly by.  The idea for totems with different stats for the woodworker was a good idea, something to complement the hex dolls of the tailor rather than compete though, we've had enough nerfing for a while, lets work with what we have already in place please.

I'll close this in saying, for myself and my family, there is no way you can possibly compensate us for our crafting time.  We've made the ones we have out of love of crafting and enjoying what each class could do, none of us have any interest in a slapped together merge of almost half the classes.  I urge you to think over any changes in this regard, while it may look pretty and neat on paper, what you will inevitably end up with is a tiny box with very little room for growth.. and that has no place in an mmo of this size and scope.

[Calthine]

Powers wrote:

kyrrah wrote: Also, musical instrument recipes are already in.  Or at least, they were in at launch and for a long time afterward; if they've removed them, it was relatively recently.  Trouble is, they don't do anything. Powers  &8^]

The never had any in game use (besides a prisitne bonus) and were removed a while back.  LU 24 I think.

[kyrr]

Powers wrote:

kyrrah wrote:

Well, I'm not gonna get all in depth here. I think that's been taken care of.

I would like to say that I never understood why you had to chose to make armour or weapons. Both are metalworkers. Same for the carp/woodworker (I believe the word that Ilucide was looking for was Carpentry).

Oh, and while I'm writing anyways I noticed that the crafter trainer still tells you that craftsmen make instruments. Can you remove that word or add the recipes so new players aren't confused?

BTW, just wanted to thank Ilucide for all the communication. I think he beat that "other" dev's post within a day or two.

Woodworkers work only with wood.  Carpenters work with wood, ore, roots, and occasionally gemstone.  Big difference. Also, musical instrument recipes are already in.  Or at least, they were in at launch and for a long time afterward; if they've removed them, it was relatively recently.  Trouble is, they don't do anything. Powers  &8^]

Well according to Niami woodworkers also use roots and ore like carpenters.  http://eq2.eqtraders.com/recipes/re...tr=080020260000

[Sonnyjim_Grumblestump]

I think combining Weaponsmiths and Armorers is a sound idea. The one caveat -- It's been said already that combining Armor/weaponsmiths will pool the number of crafters with no net increase in recipes. This obviously benefits the weaponsmiths more. Therefore, I think the smiths would still need some new recipes... but that is in addition to the class combination. I think that once you merge into smith, all you need to do is find some more items for the smiths to make. (horseshoes??) The Carpenters and Woodworkers are fine as is though. I dont believe they need something this drastic to fix them.

[Calthine]

kyrrah wrote:

Powers wrote:

kyrrah wrote:

Well, I'm not gonna get all in depth here. I think that's been taken care of.

I would like to say that I never understood why you had to chose to make armour or weapons. Both are metalworkers. Same for the carp/woodworker (I believe the word that Ilucide was looking for was Carpentry).

Oh, and while I'm writing anyways I noticed that the crafter trainer still tells you that craftsmen make instruments. Can you remove that word or add the recipes so new players aren't confused?

BTW, just wanted to thank Ilucide for all the communication. I think he beat that "other" dev's post within a day or two.

Woodworkers work only with wood.  Carpenters work with wood, ore, roots, and occasionally gemstone.  Big difference. Also, musical instrument recipes are already in.  Or at least, they were in at launch and for a long time afterward; if they've removed them, it was relatively recently.  Trouble is, they don't do anything. Powers  &8^]

Well according to Niami woodworkers also use roots and ore like carpenters.  http://eq2.eqtraders.com/recipes/re...tr=080020260000

Pretty certain that they meant as primary ingredients.  Woodoworkers only use wood and an occasional bit of rare ore as primary ingredients.

[Myster]

Add my vote to those opposed to the 'Hypothetical questions(s)'. My girlfriend and I started this game together and between the two of us we have all the crafting classes, most at level 70. I myself have weaponsmith, armorer, and woodworker. Am I opposed to it because I put all this work into leveling them up already and have no need to respec them into anything else? It would be a lie if I said it that wasn't at least a part of my feelings on it, though extremely minor. When I first read it I thought "Wow, that sounds great." Then I thought on it for a few minutes and started realizing how... not great it is. I described my feelings on it to a friend as "It's like putting a band-aid over an infected wound and hoping it will go away." This is just a band-aid, a quick fix that really does nothing, as others have stated. It will just increase the supply on already useless product and do nothing for the demand. And as Rijacki said back on page 2, it sets an extremely bad precedent. Sure weaponsmiths aren't all that great in game right now, but they could be revived if a little work were to be put into them. Others have given some ideas, I've read through this post and i liked a lot of them. I may repeat a few here as well. First, I believe it was mentioned some various charm-type items could be added, such as +skills and/or stats, with varying effects on them. Giving throwing ammo back to weaponsmiths, especially now that crafted ammo is being improved. Improving on crafted weapons to make them desirable when compared to extremely common treasured weapon drops... Crafting quests and dropped components/recipes, perhaps one-time use recipes that get removed when you attempt the recipe, pass or fail. I would also say I agree with moving the transmuter weapon adornments over to weaponsmith as well, but not without giving them something in return. What? I don't know. Perhaps another option is to add something similar to adornments, but specific to weapons. Perhaps each weapon could have one or more customization slots added to it? Then you could have your base weapon and... say with a quest, some dropped components, and help from an alchemist or sage make a flame imbued blade that causes the weapon to do heat damage instead of slashing. Maybe an improved crossguard could be added instead that will give the benefit of additional parry skill above what an adornment would give on any normal weapon. Maybe at the cost of some of the damage or stats. A trade-off effect? I dunno. I didn't flesh it out all that much, just thought of it reading through the post. Armorers? As others have said, finish out the armor sets down to the lower tiers. I sorta liked the idea of new things as you went up in level... but it really makes things hard for the lower levels finding what they need. I also liked the idea of armor (and maybe weapons) getting new recipes mid-way through the tier for a higher level x5 version. One thing I've always found annoying was being out hunting, get to a new tier, get a suit of crafted... then find a drop one level higher than the crafted that's just enough better to make me want to switch it out. I also liked the idea of the stat-less gear that gave the appearance of wearing a suit for show. Like the clothing. Could have a full line of ceremonial armor. Woodworkers? I've already mentioned taking away the throwing ammo, i liked the idea of adding extra effects to arrows through crafting, like the heat and cold. Maybe something similar to my weaponsmithing idea for the woodcrafted bows and shields. Carpenters... well, I'd say give them more items and diversity to what they can make. There are so many beautiful items I've seen in NPC homes or instances that I hear people say "Wow! I want one of those!" Adding crafting style quests for unique items, maybe abilities. The dropped recipes and components. Perhaps crafting AA lines for specialization... all great ideas as well. This hypothetical questioning just sounds like an attempt to take an easy way out, no offense to the hard working devs. I know you said an entire overhaul isn't possible... but that's what's needed to bring crafting back to a viable choice in the game. I remember when it was said that it would be a good alternative to adventuring. Then they took out the interdependancy. That was one of the difficulties for crafting and actually helped lead to having better items, since it took longer and required others to make anything worthwhile. Then, seeing as everyone could make everything themselves they figured to just get rid of subcomponents all together. And since crafting was becoming so easy... have to nerf all the crafted items, too easy to make and get. Removal of first time pristine bonus xp would be good too, though if they did that, the per-item xp should be increased a bit. That way everyone is on the same footing when it comes to leveling. Difficulty to obtain resources? That's a bit of a different topic that I won't go into. If that's an issue, it should be looked into on its own. (Curse that indium!) And again, no offense to the devs, but when I mentioned these changes to my girlfriend and then Illucide's addition of: Ilucide wrote:

• 'Re-doing' entire professions is not something that was asked. The amount of time that would take is beyond the realm of even remote possibility.

Her response was "I wonder if the people that work in those offices used to have a real gamer's passion. And if it got lost." I asked her to come post here with her ideas and opinions, but she's really given up hope that anything worthwhile will come of it. The game is in your hands, devs. Crafting is really going downhill as a whole and without someone or someones dedicated to pulling it back up and making it something to strive for again... what's the point of making any superfluous changes?

[Rrys]

Presuming the mergers were to happen, two things must happen.  The first is for those players who had two crafters being merged (like a 70 weaponsmith and a 70 armorsmith).  They must get a free respec to level 70 for the crafter who isn't going to be a blacksmith.  Second involves recipes.  All of my crafters have all of their advanced recipes.  I expect those to be a part of the merger and the respec.  My new blacksmith would have all of the advanced blacksmith recipes.  And, if I respec my other blacksmith to say tailor, when I respec them they too should have all of the advanced tailor recipes.

[dracokalen]

Powers wrote:

kyrrah wrote:

Well, I'm not gonna get all in depth here. I think that's been taken care of.

I would like to say that I never understood why you had to chose to make armour or weapons. Both are metalworkers. Same for the carp/woodworker (I believe the word that Ilucide was looking for was Carpentry).

Oh, and while I'm writing anyways I noticed that the crafter trainer still tells you that craftsmen make instruments. Can you remove that word or add the recipes so new players aren't confused?

BTW, just wanted to thank Ilucide for all the communication. I think he beat that "other" dev's post within a day or two.

Woodworkers work only with wood.  Carpenters work with wood, ore, roots, and occasionally gemstone.  Big difference. Also, musical instrument recipes are already in.  Or at least, they were in at launch and for a long time afterward; if they've removed them, it was relatively recently.  Trouble is, they don't do anything. Powers  &8^]

 Thats funny, I'm a woodworker and my recipes require wood, ore and roots.

[VolgaDark]

armorer & weaponsmith .... maybe, really not sure how I feel about this combo.

carpenter & woodworker ... no, I really do not like this idea. They are just way too different.

[katalmach]

I'm somewhat on the fence about this. I wouldn't mind a merger of woodworkers/carpenters at all, but I wouldn't be upset if the classes weren't merged either. (I DEFINITELY think a blacksmith merger would be awesome though!) I have a carpenter and I absolutely love the class. A merger with woodworkers would solve a few problems for both classes, but I can't see any real drawbacks. Saturated market? Yeah well, I can't make money as it is (my bf started tailoring at the same time as I started a carpenter - he's got 100s of plat, I'm down to 20-ish and probably haven't made more than 5 plat or so off carpenty. I don't mind much though, as I mainly do it because I enjoy decorating my house.). Loss of identity? Not really, I'll still be a carpenter, only a carpenter who can do woodworking as well! More of an addition to identiry than a loss, really.. So, seeing as I can't REALLY see any drawbacks, I  guess I'm going to have to say: go for it! (May wa nt to offer a on-time crafting class reroll for the people who sudd enly end up with redundant crafters though, that w ould be nice.) Oh, merger or no merger, one ability that should be added to carpenters is being able to add extra rooms to houses (for example by unlocking the secret, currently inaccessible rooms in the 5-room mansions). That would be really cool!

[MrWolfie]

YES! GREAT IDEA.

So good I had it myself a few months back.

I have a 70 Sage, Tailor and Jeweller. The only thing holding back my Woodworker (25) and my Armorer (35, and my first tradeskill class) is the boring grind and lack of recipies. This does kill two birds with one stone.

It is likely that some will feel a loss of identity, but you're not taking anything away from anyone (a development technique I despise). In fact, you're only expanding TS classes that are already very restrictive. I think if we imagined that, if we were a Carpenter for example, there were no such thing as a Wooworker, would we be happy to have our class expanded to include a whole new range of recipies?

Necessarily, tradeskilling does still need to move forward, irrespective of this (hypothetical) change. This will "fix" 4 classes who are unfairly treated when it comes to ease of levelling, recipies (amount and variation thereof), writs and general "fun", but my Sage has hardly made anything since hitting 70 last year. I only ever make the odd spell for an alt, or alt of a friend. There's a real lack of unique items made by tradespeople, and still the gulf between adventuring and TS'ing. Rare equipment and spells need to STOP dropping at high level, no more masters or fabled or legendary stuff; but drops discovered by adventurers which can be crafted by tradeskillers into those masters, fabled and legendary items.

One concession I would make (in addition to anything you do for those people with two characters whose skills are to be merged) would be for those people who already ground out a 70 armorer/weaponsmith/woodworker or carpenter: if this change went in, they would be awarded titles such as Master Armorsmith, Master Weaponsmith...etc.

[Magnus The Man]

Ok...I'm going to post a reply that I believe has some experience in tradeskilling.  While I'm not 70, I feel I have a good feel for all of the different classes. Level 62 armorer Level 60 weaponsmith Level 60 alchemist Level 60 jeweler Level 50 sage Level 50 tailor Level 50 woodworker Level 36 provisioner Level 36 carpenter NO .... NO ... NO ... NO....and ... are you insane for even thinking this at this juncture in the game What is the fundamental problem these days in the world of crafters?  You have 50 million crafters per server thereby making your "wares" hardly worth the effort.  I tried selling my common crafted items on the broker but got tired of seeing the items (priced 15-30s profit) sit there day after day while the undercutting drives the price to only a few silver pieces above cost.   With the exception of a few items, I sell all of my "common"  wares back to the merchant to recoop the fuel cost because it simply is not worth the space in my broker vault  to make a few silver pieces profit on the item.  I dont think any "non provisioner class" will dispute the lack of income generated by selling the "common crafted" items.  By  combining the classes, you will double the number of people that can craft the items.  This "combination of tradeskills" will effectively drive the prices of Mastercrafted crafted items into the category of "not worth my time" or "money loss" (if you have to buy your rare component to make the item) for most crafters.  As it stands, I don't ever make some of the Mastercrafted weapons b/c the stats on them and class restriction make them totally useless and you lose money on the item when you buy the rare.  Most tradeskillers are making their money on adornments these days b/c the profit of Mastercrafted items has diminished significantly over the past 6months. The idea of making crafting easier to level with more receipes sounds great on the surface.  But if you want to do that...just give the professions with lower number of reciepes per level more xp for 1st time crafting of the item to balance them out with the insanely easy tradeskill professions (sage). I sincerely hope that this hypotheses does come to fruition.  It will be disasterous for the tradeskill community.

[Katine]

I oppose this change for reasons others have presented earlier in this thread.  I agre that some tradeskill classes are more deficient than others, but combining classes is not a viable solution for all the reasons previously mentioned.

I played EQ1 for several years and by the time I retired, my main was 250 in all tradeskills with trophies.  To say I was a tradeskill junkie was putting it mildly.  Probably the BEST thing that happened to tradeskills in EQ1 (prior to when I retired from the game) was the POTC (Protection of the Cabbage) quest.  For those that don't know what it is...I'll give a brief rundown.  POTC was a quest that required several different items such as food (misty thicket picnic) a sword, an idol, and several other items that my memory is failing to recall right now.  Players could buy the individual items and combine them into an earring that had excellent stats (at the time).  The final earring was notrade, and was good for many levels.  That quest revitalized tradeskills like crazy!  I think something like that, along with tradeskill trophies (like those that were in EQ1) should be added into EQ2.  That would help to revitalize tradeskills. 

To take the idea a step further, perhaps an item could be created every two tiers or every one tier that is similar to the concept of POTC where tradeskill items are nedded to combine into one final item.  There are many different options that could be created from the general concept.  Another idea is to segregate it out among tradeskillers.  Have players buy several different types of food items from provisioners to make a misty thicket picnic of sorts that would have uber stats, and be notrade.  The same could be made for weapons.  Have weaponsmiths make several parts of a weapon (i.e., hilt, blade, etc)., and players have to "buy" those parts from tradeskillers to do one final combine into an uber weapon (better then a dropped weapon) for their specific class.

What really needs to be done to tradeskills is to make them integral, and, most of all necessary to the adventurer community.  Provisioners, sages and jewelers are necessary for food, runes and spells.  The other classes are only "somewhat" necessary.  For instance, armorers and tailors are necessary but only 5-7 times in an adventurer's career (one for each tier thereabouts, depending on class). 

When EQ2 was in development, long  before beta, back when the "Teaser" notes were coming out, tradeskilling was always "sold" as a class that would be as exciting, and equivalent to playing an adventurer.  As a hard core tradeskiller from EQ1 I thought that finally tradeskills were giving some "life" and excitement.  So far, while the changes have been greatly appreciated and very good, the tradeskilling class overall has been somewhat bland.  I would like to see tradeskillers treated more like adventurers with continued quests at each level or tier, new challenges that push the skills of tradeskillers (i.e., how well do you really know how to use your buffs rather then just spamming +dura/-prog/+dura buffs).  Don't get me wrong, the things like writs, titles for tradeskillers, tradeskill clothes, etc., are great, but there comes a point where tradeskilling (of any class) becomes mundane and boring.

For example, adventurers always have new zones to see, new challenges to face through mobs and quests, and new spells/gear to obtain every few levels.  They have several things  to look forward to as they level up and progress through the game.  What do tradeskillers have?  Those players who chose to pursue only a tradeskill path?  They only have new recipes to look forward to, and the challenge of harvesting (depending on your level, i.e., a level 13 harvesting in t7 could be a challenge).  What about giving them more quests (other then writs)?  Perhaps quests (in addition to or other than the POTC I mentioned) that requires them to harvest several "special" items (not necessarily rare, but uncommon) and make an item of their speciality where the reward would be something that improves their tradeskilling abilities.  There could be quests to get tradeskill trophies that could be displayed in your house.  Perhaps even a quest for tradeskillers to get the tradeskill machines so they don't have to use status points if they don't want to. 

I agree with Illucide that weaponsmiths/armorers need some loving, but combining them is not the best option long term, nor is it right for the tradeskill classes overall.  Finding other, creative ways to inject life into those classes specifically, and the tradeskill classes in general is what should be the ultimate goal, and the way to approach "fixing" tradeskills.

[afeather]

I am very pleased to see some actions being taken by the devs in the tradskill area! I happen to have 9 crafters and am looking forward to seeing crafting getting attention. My first thought about the proposal to merge armorer/weaponsmith and woodworker/carpenter was that it was a good idea. But after some thought on the subject i have changed my mind and am against the idea. I think really that we need more creative solutions to the problems in crafting. A little thinking outside the box is in order. Yes there are too few slots weaponsmiths can craft for so instead of merging classes maybe creating some recipes for weaponsmiths that use different slots but still have a relationship to weapons would be a better way to than a merge. I am sure as a group we could come up with some great ideas to breath life back into crafting. But I now find myself in the group that thinks this is a quick fix that really don't address deeper problems. My biggest fear is that tradskills will ultimatly stay the redheaded stepkid in EQ2. illucids posts give me hope (please keep them up!) But I fear that truly making tradskills fun,useful and desirable would take more of an investment in time and resources than SoE is willing to give it.

[Jai1]

14 pages in a few days I guess would mean that ppl have an opinion about this.  I'll have to catch up later but I want to put in my 2c.

To make such a major change as to reduce content or eliminate professions must mean that a problem is seen.   To me and without reading the 14 pages here yet, the biggest problem seems that WS aren't real big money makers.   They don't have many recipes.  It seems like we could logically put them together with Armorers to make a blacksmith class.  Although this would completely eliminate the WS as the black sheep of the EQ2 crafting world,  who would this move appeal to.  Probably both single played Armorers and WSs.  I mean ppl are [Removed for Content] about both of them.   Not the biggest money makers and progression is slow going.  Who wouldn't want and entire other proffession's recipes added to their books?  Bring them up to scholar speed progression and expand their availible goods.  I tell you who it wouldn't appeal to is the people that have gone through the pains of progressing both.  This includes the carpenter and WW.

I think the recipe lists of all 4 different professions in question here are different enough to warrent 4 different professions.  This game, and crafting with in it, are easy enough that people generally have more than one crafter.   If we are talking about boring classes to progress, how about the provisioner.  There just isn't a counterpart to merge that one into.  I'm not about taking content away from the players to eliminate a crafter most characters need 1 or maybe two slots of items for.  It sounds like a NGE move(My poor poor CH)  Make the game more simple,  more enjoyable... which is subjective.

I read an artical a long time ago that compared WoW and EQ2.  The writer noted that the biggest difference between the two was that EQ2 had added complexity. I mean hey we have 24 classes that could be merged into 12 I think.  The writer felt this was a competitive advantage in the market and if EQ2 was to do well they needed to differentiate the product as such.  So I say don't start simplifying the game to people that put their only craftin choice into a profession that appeals to 2 slots.   It's easy to think about that and see that's how WS works out.  I know we are talking about bulk, hypothetical,  changes but the WW and carpenter professions are different enoungh to be DIFFERENT and warrent their own proffession.  With this merge kind of thinking we could stick a lot of proffessions together.  Again, it would appeal to the people that play one of the counterpart and really [Removed for Content] of the people that went through the effort of making both.  With a crafting mindset, and I believe I craft seriously,  we build multiple professions to expand our availible goods.  It doesn't boil down to 1 or two choices but can sometimes fall into the whole shibang. The really serious crafters sometimes just pick the ALL button.   Let's talk about people being able to reset their crafting choices before eliminating 2 entirely differentiate professions.  If the real problem is just that WS suck let people unchoose to be one.   But let the serious crafters be able to pick that craft and supply the market.  People buy weapons, armor, furniture and WW stuffs.   I think enough to warrent different professions.  Plus it's added complexity which some of us like about the game.

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