Hypothetical question(s)

[Finora]

At this point in the game, I think it would be a bad move. It certainly would have people who'd leveled up those classes previously stepping all over each other's toes.

Weaponsmithing in particular would benifit from such a change in some ways, the other classes not really other than gaining some extra recipes.  Carpentry does fine on it's on. Armorer does just fine on it's on. Woodworking, has some flaws, but also does fine on it's on due to it not being solely based on the weapons it creates. Weaponsmithing does fine up until the mid 30s when players get zones like Runnyeye which drop so legendary quality weapons that it becomes easy to ignore the smithed ones, especially after adornments were introduced. In the tiers following it varies depending which zones the player plays in but Weaponsmithing is horrible in Tier 7 where everything and it's grandmother seems to drop awesome legendary weapons.  The new changes to allow imbued weapons to be adorned should help a bit, but the base damage of all playermade weapons serious needs to be looked at or no matter what changes you make, player made weapons will always be looked on as secondrate.

Then there are the people like me who have one of everything. We'd suddenly end up with 2 of 2 different classes which isn't nearly as appealing as it might sound to some. There is no way to replace or reimburse people for all the money and time put into leveling all 4 of the classes that could potentially be affected.

Before ever considering such a drastic change, I suggest looking at exactly why some of the classes seem to need help. I think you would find that after looking at that, you'd see that it isn't really the number of recipes that is the problem with the classes more an issue of the quality of the items produced. 

[Ceeamee]

I'd like to start out saying that I'm really excited to see a dev here asking for opinions on what we think of these changes instead of blindly going about changing anything.  I have been crafting since beta and it's probably my favorite aspect of the game. That being said, I have to agree with Calthine on this.  I don't really feel like combining the classes would be the best answer.  There have been quite a few things suggested in this monster thread already that are great ideas.  I like the idea of fleshing out the classes in question instead of just merging them into one. I don't personally have a woodworker, but I do have a carpenter.  I became a carpenter because I have a severe addiction to house decorating.  The problem that I see with the class is that there isn't very much versatility with the items that we're able to make.  True, with some special placement and imagination, there are many things that aren't actual items that can be made.  I will use the smaller races as an example.  There are 4 smaller races, but very little NICE furniture for them to use.  I know that there are loads of recipes for smaller furniture.  But truthfully, the end product just isn't as nice as alot of the stuff for the lager races.  Again, that's just one example. As far as the armor and weapons...I don't know.  I remember the days when armorers, tailors and weaponsmiths were actually in demand.  We had one of each in my T5 raiding guild that didn't even raid.  They were pure crafters.  Back then the armor was actually nice.  Yeah, you could get a dropped item in a random zone or instance, but chances were that your crafted armor was better.  It was better until you got into your raid armor for that tier.  Or you happened to get a really nice treasured/fabled item from an instance.  I'm not trying to live in the past with this statement, but I don't see why it was ever changed.  I remember when EQ2 was launched they were talking about how much they wanted crafters to be a part of the game.  Now my roomate can barely sell mastercrafted high level tailored stuff since what you can get from a regular zone while out exping is better or just as good.  The changes made to tradeskilling, other than the no-sub which I love, didn't bode well for any of the outfitters as a whole.  I don't think that any amount of merging will fix that.  Not to mention that you'd have the issue with alot of people that have two of the same class.  Maybe some kind of...TS "beatrayal"??    I know..That's a dead horse..lol

[Toadfire]

Let me say please do! Now with that said, Crafters don't have to craft anything you don't want to. Gratz to you who have persisted in tradeskilling to High lvls. I have a 70 sage and a 51 Jeweler as well as a 40 armorer and 44 weaponsmith. I want the change. Many people have abandoned Armorer tradeskill at early lvls because of the grinding that is required. I also think that if you reached lvl 30 when there were no essentails book between 26-29th lvl you should be compensated.

I belive this would lead to more high lvl crafters and a renewed interest in the game for me. It might also stop some of the price gouging, that no one can deny that happens in game. I probably will reroll one of my toons, if it happens but i am willing to do so. Also neither craft is selling mastercrafted items. I also hate to grind on crafting items, especially at high lvls. The Fuel cost 34 gold at lvl 60, i know you can sell back to the vendor. It doesn't equal out. I have several High lvl toons, but I'm not rich. So coin matters to me, a great deal. I would like to see people who end up with two crafters, be able to "one time switch" to a different craft. Please please please!

[Badaxe Ba]

Handcrafted was so nerfed there isn't really a market at all.  Removal of subcombines may have 'eased' some tradeskillers, but really made the grind More boring.  Yes to merge weaponsmith and armorer.

Woodworkers are at least blessed w/consumeable recipes that generate income.  Carpenters I don't know so well.

[Obadiah]

Sign me up in the "Opposed" column. I'm opposed for a lot of reasons, mostly personal preference. But I think Arrek hit the biggest real issue on the head, and Powers expanded on it.

"Your proposal would cause a significant increase in competition for the goods I produce with no corrisponding increase in sellable (high demand) products. "

All server economies are different. On my server a few relentless Weaponsmiths have the market sealed up tight from t4/5 up. Yes, there is room to undercut them, but you'd better check the broker daily and make sure they haven't undercut you in response. And they have every weapon listed, so you'd better start hoarding those rares. If I were an Armorsmith on my server trying to earn a buck, I would throw up in my mouth a little at the thought of these guys having a FREE PASS into my market. (As it is, I'm a Weaponsmith, so I've been used to it since we were on Grobb)

Sure, as a Weaponsmith I'd try to take advantage of it. I know the market is there for armor because I recently levelled up a Defiler. I looked for Mastercrafted armor in t4, t5, and t6 and there was a huge disparity between rare prices and armor cost. In t5 there was a full 1P difference between a chuck of ebon and some cobalt chain leggings. So yeah, I'd love to jump in and undercut that action. I would have crafted my own weapons to use as well, but I went down the Agility line and Defilers and Mystics can't use any player crafted 2-handed spears until tier 7.

Similar situation with Woodworkers and Carpenters. But it's not just 1 or 2 players there. The Carpenter market is very sporadic. Might get nothing for a while and then BAM someone moves into SQ and there it all goes. But while it's slow, there are several players on Everfrost that just undercut each other til they're blue in the face. As a Woodworker, I wouldn't want all those jokers coming into my sandbox. (I don't actually have a Woodworker, but I do have a Carpenter, and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night)

Player crafted armor & weapons are great in lower tiers and as a filler in t7. The market for mastercrafted is great in t5 and up in particular. I levelled up my transmuter entirely on crafting profits. I don't see the big problem, although I'm with the guy that wants whips all the way. Once players hit the mid-60s they won't have a future need for player crafted goods. So if there's any improvement to be made it's the introduction of items  that players might actually use/want once they hit that point. Frankly I don't think it's necessary though.

Carpenters could use a greater variety of items, many of which already exist in the game so I don't think the art department needs to go nutty.

Please don't combine any of these classes, but thanks for the discussion.

[Jida]

Terron wrote: Weaponsmith The first thing that needs to be done for weaponsmiths is to fix transmuting. That is remove the crafting from transmuting and give the transmuter's recipes to the weaponsmiths. That would make transmuting simpler and more logical, and release transmuted components for use by tradeskill classes (instead of them mostly being used to level up the transmuting). Weaponsmiths would not just get more recipes, but they would be recipes that are desirable by high levels.

Jida wrote:

For those who say "don't combine them, fix them" I pose this question... How? Be specific, and don't say "take something from someone else and ..."

Done

You had decent ideas till you broke it by saying take away from transmuters...

[Obadiah]

I have to say - because I can't shutup - that I'm always surprised to read the comments about crafting being destroyed in LU24. From my perspective:

*Handcrafted armor and weapons all had their stats improved. If you used them before that revamp you DEFINITELY used them after.

*Samies with Mastercrafted. Because they haven't yet made crafted 2-handed spears once again usable by Defilers/Mystics in t6 and below, I refuse to play my 54 Defiler. The pre-revamp 2-handed mastercrafted spear he currently has is a joke in comparison to the post-revamp model. His Wisdom will increase by 40 if the aforementioned change ever takes place, and his Str by 25. Wow. What a nerf.

*My Tailor couldn't make a dime before LU24 because the stats on handcrafted AND mastercrafted (Legendary back then) light armor was a joke. Quit trying at level 44. Since said update he has funded levelling up as a Transmuter, twinked my Defiler, and mastered out both of my level 70 toons, all pretty much on Tailoring proceeds alone and only stocking a small segment of the T6/T7 Tailor product list.

*I levelled up to 50 as a Weaponsmith before DoF. There is currently no grind in crafting regardless of class. My Carpenter is only level 65 because the Tailor market is better than the Carpenter market, and I don't have time to waste messing around with shuffling items from toon to toon for sales. I barely have time to restock my Tailor wares every day as it is, and again I only focus on sub-sections of T6 and T7.

*Yeah, I thought it was nice when I made myself a cobalt weapon in DoF and sold enough to fund my cobalt armor. It was good stuff. But eventually never even looking at drops that weren't fabled got really old. Everything was vendor trash. Everything. If you weren't raiding there was really no reason to adventure other than to level up. Loot was pointless. Yay, how fun.

*I would jump into the fray and try to make money with my Weaponsmith too if it were easier to list products from multiple toons. I just have one Ironwood Salesman Crate a little under half full (or a little over half empty). If my Weaponsmith and Carpenter could dump items directly into it, that would be all I ask.

[Terron]

Powers wrote:

Ilucide, look at it this way. What does your hypothetical proposal actually do?  What changes under your proposal? 1) Demand goes nowhere.  Demand for all products will stay exactly the same.  (Actually, demand might actually go down, because, for example, Weaponsmiths who currently need to contract an Armorsmith to create armor will no longer need to do so.) 2) Supply goes up.  The number of crafters in one of the new professions will not be exactly the sum of the number in the old professions, but it will be a lot higher than either was.  This will greatly increase supply. Basic economics: what happens when supply goes up and demand stays the same (or goes down)?  That's right, prices go down. And this is supposed to help crafters?

Excellent argument. Before I just felt that other things should be tried first, now I agree it would be bad for crafters. Though there is an exception. Someone who crafts just to make stuff for themselves and friends would benefit from being able to make more and level up faster. But generally fewer people will be involved in trading or trying to make money from crafting so the market will be less healthy, and crafting will become even more a hobby for adventurers.

[slyfer]

Combining these classes would not solve anything.

The problem is nothing they can make is better than any loot drops.  Make the items desirable that tradeskillers can make.

Carpenter - Make items that people can put in there house for a buff, an exp increase item, tradeskilling exp increase item,  an AA rate increaser, when adventuring.  Like the items you got from doing the quests before EoF came out.

Woodworker - Fixing Arrows is a step in the right direction.  Now what about the other items?  Again drops in the world are way better than anything a WW can make.

Armor - Again drops from mobs are way better and easy to get.  Armor should be on par or better with the world drops.  What about making a Rare 7 piece set armor made by tradeskillers that would add a cool or usefull effect that you can select when all of these items are put on?

Weaponsmith - Drops in the world are so much better.  This is the most noticible with the Weaponsmith.  Increase the desirablity of the weaponsmiths weapons

[Nuhus]

Terron wrote:

Powers wrote:

Ilucide, look at it this way. What does your hypothetical proposal actually do?  What changes under your proposal? 1) Demand goes nowhere.  Demand for all products will stay exactly the same.  (Actually, demand might actually go down, because, for example, Weaponsmiths who currently need to contract an Armorsmith to create armor will no longer need to do so.) 2) Supply goes up.  The number of crafters in one of the new professions will not be exactly the sum of the number in the old professions, but it will be a lot higher than either was.  This will greatly increase supply. Basic economics: what happens when supply goes up and demand stays the same (or goes down)?  That's right, prices go down. And this is supposed to help crafters?

Excellent argument. Before I just felt that other things should be tried first, now I agree it would be bad for crafters. Though there is an exception. Someone who crafts just to make stuff for themselves and friends would benefit from being able to make more and level up faster. But generally fewer people will be involved in trading or trying to make money from crafting so the market will be less healthy, and crafting will become even more a hobby for adventurers.

Seems quite a few people have a narrow scope of view. The only thing it would acomplish is making it faster to level. Whats the use in leveling a to make crap? If SOE wants to make it a more a sideline to adventuring they might as well make it like wow and on top of that narrow the scope down to one crafter class. Ultimate self serving crafting.

Some people still have a view of crafting for other players - not merely themslves.

[Matia]

My two bits worth. I'll preface this with the fact that I have most of the above. Not at high levels on all of them mind you, but I have them.A huge part of the reasonings I have read so far seem to be that they have few recipes and/or the end results are not as valued or sought after. So afterwards, you would have individuals with more recipes but that still wouldn't have end products much sought after. While I don't necessarily believe this to be the case, merging would possibly give the impression that tradeskill class problems/imbalances were going to be addressed from now on by slimming down the varieties. My personal preference (within the parameters stated by Ilucide) would be for an increase in recipes for the stated classes. Weapon varieties (maybe two or three forms of long sword for example in a given tier) with different sets of bonuses for each variety much like the new armor types that went in. More armors with the same type of thing, plus maybe just appearance differences ("I'd like my sword blackened thank you" ). Appearance varieties for crafted decorations and furniture. Etc, etc. Or, in short, to increase the options rather than decrease them. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't like the precedent where at any future time my classes, either TS or Adventurer, might be made "more fun" by being merged with something else that I didn't take to begin with.

[CoLD MeTaL]

I think both of those are great ideas.

 Those 2 professions have so few recipes (i hear), and my 59 weaponsmith produces nothing worth selling.

 I will also mention that this would be PERFECT FOR ME personally  (so this is selfish hehe)  I have a Woodworker and weaponsmith, both incredibly hard to level, but something to do in down time.  I wish I had a carpenter and armorer, but i don't have the patience to level those with so few recipes.

 I would be happy just changing my weaponsmith to basically anything else I don't have because they are so useless.

[Zendi_Perma]

Personally, I don't really care one way or the other.   I have all 9 crafters, and I don't sell much from any of those classes anyway other than adornments.

 The real issue is the imbalance between the tradeskill classes regarding consumable items and usefulness.     Provisioners make food/drink which everyone needs and there is a constant demand.     Weaponsmiths and Armorsmiths make items that are inferior to dropped and with no decay the demand is light.

Personally I liked the item decay that Star Wars Galaxies had.   It ensured there was a constant demand for all tradeskilled products because everything was consumable.   Now, SWG also had a crafting system with individuality and uniqueness that was far superior to EQ2's (IMO), which also allowed the best tradeskillers to make items that were truly better than the competition.    I do actually lke the concept of dropped items allowing WS/AS to craft superior items.

 I think joining classes would be a bandaid, no a tiny bandaid,  to fixing the bigger issues outlined above.

 One additional thought:   what about crafted armor sets with bonuses for 3, 5, or 7 items equipped?

[StargateFanGirl]

I have a carpenter and a woodworker. My first reaction is yes! My swash can make her can make her own furniture and her own ammo! BUT as beneficial as that would be to me, I'm not so sure it would be near as beneficial to the crafters as a whole.

I have a hard enough time selling furniture as it is without doubling the amount of people who will suddenly also be selling furniture. I cant really comment on woodworker much as I've only just started on that one, but with increasing the output on a combine it seems as if going this route would also potentially cause a flood on the market as carpenters start making ammo hoping to cash in on an in-demand market.

Instead of combining classes I think focus would be better placed on improving tier recipes, for one add crossbows and crossbow bolts to woodworker recipes - I seem to recall crossbow bolts being in the game at launch and disappearing not long after and the equipment page on the website taunts us with crossbows it says should be in the game but arent (some class ranged attacks could be changed to require crossbows instead of thrown ammo), someone higher in woodworking than I would be better able to suggest what else they need to improve that class.

But for carpenters add more furniture sets - like the EoF furniture and Island of Mara furniture, seating that isnt a bench, stool or a dining chair would greatly add variety to housing - there is one splintery looking bone rocking chair (how about a sandalwood rocking chair that has the same finish as the ironwood tables...) padded arm chairs and sofa's would be nice. Curtains, dishes, little things that make a place look lived in. Players would buy them. 

Combining the crafter classes seems like the easy way out (and the most potentially damaging to the market) when the better way (but also likely to be the most time consuming) would be to improve their recipes instead.

[Zygwen]

While combining Woodworkers and Carpenters would be advantageous for me, I don't think it is the right move. The trouble I have with my woodwork versus my alchemist, sage, tailor and jeweler is the relative lack of recipies at each level. I find it demoralizing when trying to level up my woodworker and provisioner for that matter because of the lack of recipies. One suggestion I have for Woodworkers, Weaponsmiths, and Armorer would be to double their number of recipies by creating a second set of items they can make mid-tier. Current recipies will be compressed into the first half of the tier and the new recipies will be offered in the second half of the tier. IE. one set of handcrafted at 40 and another at 45. Mastercrafted items would be 42 and 47. Another option is to provided different flavors of existing items. So there can be two bucklers with two different graphics and possibly two different stats. There could be 3 types of long swords with one better suited for druids and another better suited for bards. Or we can introduce ceremonial weapons and armor just like we have new sets of clothing that tailors can make.

[Ruben]

Between 2 accounts I have all 9 Crafter classes. all of them are 40 and above.

The ones that I find to be the hardest is exactly the ones you say weaponsmith, armorer, woodworker and carpenter.

Since the changes with KoS that caused so many people to have to grind levels to do the heritages and dump things on the broker for sometimes less than vendor resell, I dont sell alot other than rare furniture. I craft mostly to have things for myself, friends and guild. the main reason I craft is because I enjoy making things, just hate grinding.

I honestly think this would be a very good idea for the long haul. I agree that the best fix would be to add another 4 or 5 recipes per level and keep things as they are but I also am wise enough to know that is something that would be extremely taxing on the resources. So i have to ask myself if I want to keep things as is or make things easier in the long haul and continue to get things fixed by allowing these to be joined.

I also want to say thank you very much for your efforts as of late to help correct alot of these old problems. This alone makes me more willing for these professions to be combined because I know you are doing so in an effort to make things better.

Keep up the great work

[Rijacki]

Kendricke wrote:

Shonshazzitt wrote: A merging of the classes is not the fix, its looking at peoples ideas, the players, the ones who chose that profession because that is what they wanted to be when they grew up.

I wanted to be a Blacksmith when I grew up, just as I was in old Everquest.  The problem was that in Everquest 2, I had to choose whether or not I could make weapons or armor - but not both. 

Adding in a tradeskill quest your armorsmith or weaponsmith (I don't know which you took, doesn't really matter) could do to allow you to start a second crafting class (at 20 if in the same trio, at 10 if in another) would allow your "blacksmith" to make both types of items but you would have to work at it and not just have it handed to you. It would also allow an alchemist to add some carpentry or even learn how to cook (starting at level 10) or maybe play with some jewelry making instead (starting at level 20). If the quest to add another class could only be started at a high level, such as 65, it would also be a reward for a high level crafter (and something to do after reaching the cap to individualise the crafter).

[Bayne]

Please don't... I have a level 70 woodworker, and a 70 carpenter... I would hate to have 2 70 builders... Unless you let me change one to a 70 blacksmith then go for it!!

[Terron]

Obadiah wrote:

I have to say - because I can't shutup - that I'm always surprised to read the comments about crafting being destroyed in LU24. From my perspective:

*Handcrafted armor and weapons all had their stats improved. If you used them before that revamp you DEFINITELY used them after.

*Samies with Mastercrafted. Because they haven't yet made crafted 2-handed spears once again usable by Defilers/Mystics in t6 and below, I refuse to play my 54 Defiler. The pre-revamp 2-handed mastercrafted spear he currently has is a joke in comparison to the post-revamp model. His Wisdom will increase by 40 if the aforementioned change ever takes place, and his Str by 25. Wow. What a nerf.

*My Tailor couldn't make a dime before LU24 because the stats on handcrafted AND mastercrafted (Legendary back then) light armor was a joke. Quit trying at level 44. Since said update he has funded levelling up as a Transmuter, twinked my Defiler, and mastered out both of my level 70 toons, all pretty much on Tailoring proceeds alone and only stocking a small segment of the T6/T7 Tailor product list.

*I levelled up to 50 as a Weaponsmith before DoF. There is currently no grind in crafting regardless of class. My Carpenter is only level 65 because the Tailor market is better than the Carpenter market, and I don't have time to waste messing around with shuffling items from toon to toon for sales. I barely have time to restock my Tailor wares every day as it is, and again I only focus on sub-sections of T6 and T7.

*Yeah, I thought it was nice when I made myself a cobalt weapon in DoF and sold enough to fund my cobalt armor. It was good stuff. But eventually never even looking at drops that weren't fabled got really old. Everything was vendor trash. Everything. If you weren't raiding there was really no reason to adventure other than to level up. Loot was pointless. Yay, how fun.

*I would jump into the fray and try to make money with my Weaponsmith too if it were easier to list products from multiple toons. I just have one Ironwood Salesman Crate a little under half full (or a little over half empty). If my Weaponsmith and Carpenter could dump items directly into it, that would be all I ask.

Obviously you don't play a tank. For tanks mitigation was king, and LU24 lowered the mitigation of armour. I was in mostly handcrafted armour before LU24 - but had just reached T6 and did all I could to get some pre-nerf cobalt - 4 pieces. I finished the set afterwards. The new pieces had higher stats, but that was insignigicant compared to the lower mit. It was also less important than the reduced resists. For my main I would upgrade armour before anything else. For all my other alts spell upgrades come first, and armour generally doesn't even make second place. My main is also a jeweler. The stuff he made dropped in quality by more than a tier at LU24. Currently he normally wears only 3 pieces he has made himself. With regard to weapons I looked at the crafted stuff, but I haven't bought a crafted weapon for my main since T3. Even before LU24 they wern't worth buying comparing to the legendary stuff you could quest for, or the fabled stuff that is common on raids. Amongst my other 5 alts only one of them has bought a weaponsmith product after T3 - my fury uses an imbued scimitar. Tailors do seem to be doing pretty well currently. Their armour is competative, bags are useful, cloaks were a nice bonus, and the fluff outfits reduce the grind. By grind I mean creating items for the sole purpose of gaining xp. Unless you are trying to level your guild with writs (mine is level 60) you will need to do that to keep up with the adventurers, even at the slow rate mine progress. Writs help, but is is still grinding.  I have a tailor who is wearing mostly stuff he made for himself, but when he reaches level 50 (currently 49)  my aim is to replace 4 pieces with other stuff - a fabled robe that is in the bank, jboots (part way through the quest),  and hopefully gloves and cap from guild writ raids. As far as I am concerned the point of adventuring is to do quests, that reason exists even when loot is rarely an upgrade.

[masterwho]

Jida wrote:

For those who say "don't combine them, fix them" I pose this question... How? Be specific, and don't say "take something from someone else and ..." I support the change of all 4 classes to 2. Increased competition may happen, but the usefulness in the trade skills will equal the rest.

Check my last post that I did awhile back (page 5, top) ...done

[Terron]

Jida wrote:

You had decent ideas till you broke it by saying take away from transmuters...

That definitely is a decent idea, which has been suggested many times before (and not just by me). As far as I am concerned transmuting is a broken mess. It is a form of harvesting mixed with a bit of crafting. It should be converted into purely a skill that provides materials for crafting. Then transmuters could level up by transmuting stuff, not by creating tons of stuff to vendor. There would be a decent supply of lower level transmuted materials for all crafters to make adornments from, instead of transmuters hoarding their materials to level themselves. A wider range of lower level adornments would be available to adventurers at reasionable prices, instead of cheap transmuter items and expensive non-transmuter adornments.

[Kiara-]

It is an attractive notion especially with regards to blacksmithing.  In all honesty, I've never seen the point for weaponsmiths and armoursmiths to be separate entities.  Weaponsmithing isn't even a remotely viable standalone skill.

It definitely wouldn't be something to undertake lightly, as with the calls to combine certain adventuring classes, combining tradeskilling classes present significant difficulties.

Naturally there are going to be concerns and I'm certain you've taken them into account, and will continue to do so.

I give huge props for recognizing that there is a problem and approaching solutions as well as taking input about the possibilities.

Currently, I'd vote yes, with reservations.  If such a thing were to go forward I'm sure those reservations would be cleared up.

One of my biggest questions is:  Would a class merge be necessary?  Are there other avenues to explore to fix these classes instead of absorbing their function into other classes?

Which of course leads to:  If merging the classes ends up being the most viable option, what steps will be taken for the people directly affected by this?  Will they be given the opportunity to change their tradeskill to something else and retain their level?  It doesn't seem fair for them to have to start over from scratch in anything.  Or will they only be given the option to become one of the new combined classes?

[Fenrock]

I think combining the Armorsmiths and Qeaponsmiths would be a good idea sense the two classes fit together so well.  But I don't think combining a Carpenter and Woodworker is a very good idea.  The two classes are so different that they just don't seem to meld well to me.  I myself am a Carpenter and while I wouldn't mind having more recipes to make the combination just doesn't sit well.  So there is my 2 cence.

[Snapdragyn]

Smiths:

• Both subclasses need more recipes -- combining fixes this.
• Both have have limited markets of low viability -- combining does not fix this, as it increases supply rather than demand.
• RP-wise, I think both fit together with no real 'identity' loss (right now it seems like they're only half of a smith each).

Overall, I'd say go for it -- the greater ease of leveling would be worth it IMO (though note that I am not a market-focused crafter, & the 2nd point above may factor more strongly in the view of those who are).

Woodcarpers:

• Both need more recipes -- combining fixes this.
• Both have limited but viable markets -- combining threatens the viability by increasing supply.
• RP-wise, both have a very different flavor & focus.

While my initial thought was that this would be good (I'm a big fan of easy TS leveling), I'm really coming around to the 'no thanks' side on this one. Carpenters have a market (& I've done my share to contribute to it), & new recipes have been added to help this. Woodworkers are probably in worse shape, but the changes to ammo will help.

Suggested alternative fixes:

• Carpenters: a few more recipes (the fireplaces are great).
• Woodwoorkers: musical instruments for bards (would also help bards; more recipes and slightly increased market).
• Woodworkers: copy the arrow changes to thrown weapons (more recipes and increased market).
• Woodworkers: add specific resist-based proc bows, similar to the wands (more recipes and increased market).

TS respecs:

Your second post at least suggests that TS respecs would be considered if this idea moves into development. I hope that you will consider this even if the TS class restructuring idea does NOT move forward, and make it available for ALL TS classes, not just those affected by any hypothetical class combines. TS classes changed dramatically with the loss of subcombines, & while I personally am glad of the changes which that brought overall, I do wish that respecs had been permitted then -- there were classes I avoided pre-revamp which looked much more fun post (*eyes alchemist*) & others where the balance shifted the other way IMO (I haven't even tried to level my prov since the revamp). If the coding to make TS respecs does come about, please open it up to everyone (with suitable difficulty; something like betrayal would be fine by me, as would resetting to TS level 1).

[Ronin SpoilSpot]

I'm voting firmly against both combinations. First of all, the problem that a merger is proposed as a solution to appears to be lacking market viability for weapon smiths, carpenters and woodworkers. Merging Weapons Smith and Armorer will not increase the marketability of weapons, which is the real problem, but would merely give weapon smiths an easy entry into the armorer market. As others have pointed out, that would merely make armor smithing less viable, due to increased competition. Removing weapon smithing completely and allowing weapon smiths to become another tradeskill class of their choice would also "solve" the problem, and probably be better for everybody. The problem for Carpenters and Woodworkers sounds like it's not total lack of marketability, but too few viable recipies. Merging these would double the number of marketable recipies for each "carpentryworker", but also double the number of people producing them. All in all, I don't believe combining classes will address the problem at hand. Only making the products more desireable will do that. Another common complaint about carpenters and woodworkers (and provisioners) is that the low number of recipies makes leveling hard. They sure are at a disadvantage wrt. discovery xp compared to other classes (scholars in particular). However, combining the classes for this reason would not even be enough (the two together still has fewer recipies than an armorer). A better solution would be to fix the amount of discovery xp that a class can get for a level (e.g. 20% of the level) and distribute it over the available recipies. That would even the playing field. /RS (Armorer and up-and-coming Carpenter)

[SenorPhrog]

I'm not sure I like the idea.  Is it because I think those are viable classes seperately?  Not at all.  I have a 40..8ish? Armorsmith.  I quit trying because honestly it become tedious to level.  My concern wouldn't be so much that blacksmiths would be able to make weapons and armor, but that it would give an unfair leveling advantage to these crafting classes.  With Bonus XP for first pristines, you'd be almost doubling what they could make.  I have no problem with that, but what about the other classes?  Doesn't quite seem fair. 

[Alrunes]

First of all, thank you for looking into the tradeskill issue. You are brave man, and I do not envy the long nights this issue may bring to you.   

Having said that I do believe you are looking down the wrong road for tradeskills. Merging the classes does not solve the issues that the classes are facing. Sure, it will help with the number of receipies available for those seeking to level up, but what then? Now you have even more people at level 70 trying to sell products that are not in a huge demand, and they come to knock on Sony's door to complain even more out of fustration.

If you want to solve the issue, you need to address 2 primary issues : 1. desirability of products 2. The leveling difficulty  imbalance between the classes.

My personal solution to the trouble is first to go to your boss and tell him you dont need one developer, although I am sure you have more then that, working on tradeskills, but 3X the number till tradeskills are a force in attracting new customers to game. I am sure that if you ask, most of the posters here can tell you about a friend that was a pure crafter who has left the game. Your goal should be in finding ways to make them come screaming back and wondering why they ever left.  

Now that you have the people, put them to work developing an "AA" system for crafters, or in other words specialize in products. I will use weaponsmiths for an example. You could give them a 3 branched AA tree, one branch for improved weapon procs, one for improved base weapons stats, one for converting/improving dropped weapons. Obviously the first 2 branches will need some regulating, but allow them to make items with similiar stats to legendary, or slightly below. This can be further regulated though the use one time receipe drops from critters or quests, and if you are still concerned about twinking make the character that intends to use the weapon go though a reasonable quest before they can attune and use the weapon. For the conversion branch, would take dropped weapons, for weaponsmiths of a metallic nature, and convert them to different types within a reasonable set of boundaries with an accompanying adjustment of stats. Obviously we couldnt make a dagger into a greatsword, but maybe we could make that greatsword into 2 nifty daggers, or take a two handed staff, for carpenters, and make a couple wands. I would rather see this open and no-trade but I could understand if we had to use the commision system so that the person had to seek out a weaponsmith rather then look for the end products on a broker.

Anyways, a system like that would accomplish a few things. One it would increase the diversity and the desire for highly skilled tradeskillers. Two, it would give those at 70 a new goal to strive for, much like you gave the 70 adventurers.

As for problem 2, I have seen many excellant suggestions, but most simply boil down to evening out the balance for experience in levels. Would my weaponsmith object to have a few "grinding" receipies that only sold back to the vendor, for example making plowheads, or wagon components, well it is not as exciting as making something to sell to community, but for learning his craft he would certainly do it and happily if the exp was good.

Alrunes 

P.S. Let the tradeskillers make much better thrown weapons for the rogue genre since the people in itemiziation and heritage quests seem to focus primarily on bows for ranged weapons.  

[Wrapye]

As to the hypothetical question, I would say nice idea, but implementation needs work.  If nothing else, there is a symmetry to the classes in EQ2, and having two classes for Craftsman and Outfitter but three for Scholar isn't balanced. I have level a level 70 alchemist, woodworker, tailor and provisioner, as well as a 40 carpenter, 39 jeweler and 37 armorer.  I don't pretend to believe that much of what any of my crafters can make is readily marketable.  The best sellers are the backpacks from the tailor and totems from the woodworker, without going into mastercrafted items.  My armorer either sells things back to the vendor, does writs (so has nothing to sell back) or sacrifices them to Mithaniel Marr on his altar. I remember at last Fan Faire asking Beghn about the marketability of items that crafters can make, and he said that he felt that anyone who wasn't in a raid guild would buy handcrafted armor and weapons upon reaching a new tier.  That got quite a few laughs from the audience (this was the tradeskill panel session).  Beghn was out of touch with how the crafts were used in practice, and I believe some of the issue we have with some classes feeling useless results from that.  I hope that with a new developer taking the reigns of the TS coding at some point in the future, and with Ilucide filling that spot for the moment, that we will see some improvement along those lines.

[Diera]

Bayne wrote:

Please don't... I have a level 70 woodworker, and a 70 carpenter... I would hate to have 2 70 builders... Unless you let me change one to a 70 blacksmith then go for it!!

Er, he addressed this a few pages ago, saying there's no way they *wouldn't* think about that, so don't worry about it.

I'm paraphrasing, but...its accurate enough.

[Jai]

Well I'm half and half on this. I do think combining Armorer and Weaponsmith is a great idea. I have both, and have always found it funny in an RP sense that they were seperate. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of combining Carpenter and Woodworker. To me these are distinctly different crafters. I've always, in a sense, thought of woodworkers as more of a fletcher...a whittler if you will. Funny but I don't see someone sitting down to whittle a bed or chair. See what I mean? So yes to Blacksmith and no to Builder...not to mention all the "Bob the Builder" jokes that would be made.