Leaf Covered Tome of the Warden (Compiled List of Bugs and Suggestions; Updated: 26 Nov 2006)

[mikemcmodmi]

I believe HPs would work.  I don't want them to dumb down content, it's easy enough as is :smileysurprised:

I also like that there's variety in the different types of heals.  Templars are the most defensive and have low dps, Inquisators have offensive buffs along with debuffs for the mob (some offensive), shamans debuff the mob with good offensive buffs, furies get offensive buffs and have good dps, wardens get 321 health and add 700 to all resists....  yea, that's our problem right there, buffs.

I say NOOOOO to getting debuffs.  If I wanted debuffs I'd have rolled a shaman.  Atm our buffs are subpar compared to the offensive cleric, the inquisator.... maybe that's the root of the problem.  The way I see it, our buffs are subpar compared to every class save furies, where some people feel furies have better buffs with porcupine.

I like class diversity, no melting pot where all healers are the same so maybe.... turn our power buff into a hp buff.  Aspect of the hawk adds 700 power or so so maybe turn that into hps.  The reason I asked for a spell shield is because one doesn't exist atm too, it would be something similar to the troub's ability but still nothing too similar.

I'm thinking if this would be outside of the class definition when I first started the game...  Wardens were meant to be the defensive variant of the druid with powerful buffs for our group.  Well that never panned out after combatrevamp but maybe a couple of tweaks would help.  Having us add hps isn't really outside of the scope of the class too I believe.  It might just be the current setup where only clerics and shamans add hps, don't believe it has to be that way and would be treading into someone else's territory.

[Sorano]

Leave my power buff alone ty I don't really think we should be asking to buff hps. Druids seem to be channeled down the resist pathway. They just need to go all the way and give us more mitigation buffs than the other priets. Furies already get that with porc, they just need to give wardens something.

[mikemcmodmi]

Well I believe if we added even 1 more point of mitigation then other priests we would be overpowered.  Each healer class adds the same base mitigation and then has a secondary ability attacked to the buff.  For us it's magic resists.  That seems to be the starting point for devs.  Same added mit and roughly equivalent healing.  Porcupine is the exception but also stuns the fury.

Now if we added say a passive 300 to mitigation, we would be overpowered.  Before combatrevamp templars and guardians added the most mitigation and that was stripped away from them and they were given tower of stone and stoneskin for good reason.  This was for balance because adding mitigation is powerful where mobs hit for physical damage with 80% of their attacks.  You would have an outright best healer.  I also don't think they'd give us stoneskin to help with damage spikes since Templars already have it and should have the outright best defensive buffs.

So how do you fix the spike damage issue?  Don't think you can go down the road of mitigation with it being overpowered which only leaves adding hps.  Either that or a spell shield, not that it would help a ton with damage spikes but at least it would let us be the strongest healer vs certain kinds of mobs.  We would become magical mob specialized, so instead of just resists a spell shield would be neat.

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-06-200602:50 PM

[Sorano]

Actually I don't think it would. We still don't buff any hps bar the one on our resist buff, so adding another 300hp more mit is not going to do much. It will however give us the extra bit of breathing room we need against spike damage by mitigating it a little. And it will only be a little because 300 more mit is not going to do all that much.

[mikemcmodmi]

Maybe you're right.  But I have a feeling if we buffed more mitigation then Templars they'd be screaming nurf :smileyhappy:

[Crimson Dragon]

you know... i was thinking (go figure).i'm trying to think of some things that would add to and fit with the flavor of the class and still not "overpower" the warden class.i think instead of new pets or recycled mystic spells (*cough*tranquility*cough*) something like a group wolf form buff would be cool.... perhaps even bring back some of our pre-combat-change procs from our group buffs - chance to proc heals, etc.i dunno... just thinking... bit of a crazy day :smileyvery-happy:

[Touryn]

As the board doesn't clearly signal when a post is edited, I'm replying here to mark the revision.As I threatened to do earlier, I collapsed the itemized shortcomings and strengths into a section describing the situation for each style of playing.  It's likely to be revised several times in the immediate future.  Language and wording are especially important here.[Edit]  Other "bugs" I might include:Is anyone still complaining about the fizzle rate or was it decided that focus is a sufficient stat to prevent it?  I'm still a bit angry that healers are taking the blunt of it.Should I complain about the shortage of certain adepts versus others?

Message Edited by Touryn on 04-06-200608:20 PM

[mikemcmodmi]

That's an ok idea... sorta like our AA line.  I was just thinking, 300 mitigation as a passive buff is overpowered.  Here's why.  The difference between a tank with all legendary gear and all fabled gear in t7 is ~400 mitigation.  So with us in group we're raise the mitigation of the tank that much?  Sounds overpowered to me.

If anything give templar's the passive mitigation buff and give us stoneskin.  I'm not sure which one is more powerful but give us the weaker of the 2.  It would suck to be given something and then have to be nurfed down for balance and cause other problems.

For balance reasons the best defensive buffers should be:  Templars > Warden > Mystics > Defilers > Inquisators > Furies

That's the way I understood the game when I began.  Defilers, I believe, are supposed to have more potent debuffs then Mystics so should be behind them in buffs.  Atm I would rank the healers as:  Templar > Defiler > Mystic > Inquisators > Wardens > Furies.

I'm no expert on shamans but I believe Mystics should have better buffs and to compensate Defilers have better debuffs.  I could be wrong.  A buff that puts us up where we belong would be good.  The above ranking at least is why I rolled my Warden in the first place, because of the awesome ability of duststorm i.e. buffs ~  I could be wrong given the combatrevamp but the spirit of each class shouldn't have changed so where are our good buffs .

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-06-200605:26 PM

[Sorano]

If you going to use that reasoning then conj mit buffs need to be removed as well. They increase mit by around 250, and that will be the diff between fabled and non fabled armour. In fact any class that buffs mit like the Pally/SK Gift of Armament and the Zerker and Guard AAs need to be taken out as well as well.

[mikemcmodmi]

Well conjs buff around 326 mitigation, crusaders by around 360 I believe.  Conjs also buff resists by 806 to cold and 1008 to heat, power of group by 576.  You could argue that conjs are better buffers then wardens atm... sigh.  Still, they aren't healers and the point is balance between healing classes.

If they did give us an extra mitigation buff I'd be happy, but I don't believe they will.  I'd be happy if they do though

[Rappy]

I still prefer plain and simple HP, more to work with when we are tickling regens.  It makes perfect sense to give the class that relies on the tank being below full health for the heals to work properly to have a better HP buff so that there is more health to work with.Edit: - I mean why give shamen the best HP buffs when the tank doesnt have to take any damage to get a heal?

Message Edited by Rappy on 04-07-200603:18 AM

[slayerwarrior]

no text sry

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-07-200612:03 PM

[slayerwarrior]

Duststorm/SandstormWith many tanks at or near their avoidance cap and many raid mobs ignoring avoidance as a function of level difference, this spell is nothing but a mana drain in raids. Even in groups, its use can be limited as the root component interferes with the general tendency for groups to remain mobile.Suggestion: This spell needs to be modified to provide measurable benefit against orange and epic mobs.Priority: HighI don't want this spell touch just for fact of it not being useful in raiding! OUT of all spell we got that not at all in high Priority. I 100% agree with Rappy! Even tho people might not agree with me i still want see some help for are class.

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-07-200602:50 PM

[heel]

---

Unmasked wrote:

---

mikemcmodmike wrote:

We by far got the raw end of the deal unless you use sandstorm which gives the tank a hefty amount of avoidance

I'm not sure what you mean by hefty but it only adds about 0.2% avoidance to the lvl 70 tank's I've tested (I have it at master).  It's much more useful in a group because of the stun.

---

Correct. What was broken down as Avoidance and Defense had been readjusted again some time ago(can't remember exactly when off-hand). A plate tank with a shield equipped would not benefit much from Sandstorm, partially by the issue with the tank capping avoidance with added agi and shield, but also they have revamped the existing defense rating of a shield - making it belong to the category of avoidance. Sandstorm at current state, does offer most benefit to mages / brawler classes, which is helpful still along with stifle factor it carries. Also it is no longer pbae.

Sandstorm has many potential. It needs to follow the math of current avoidance rating correctly without being negated somewhat by the shield factor, or should go wholly to the defense(physical mitigation) rating in my opinion.

Message Edited by heelox on 04-07-200607:37 PM

[mikemcmodmi]

Now there's an idea that would help us and not overpower us.  Take away the defense portion from sandstorm and instead make it a group mitigation buff.  Say around 400.  Since it's a cast spell and not a passive mitigation buff I don't believe it would overpower us.  It sucks our power dry as well so it's not like we would use it too liberally too, just when we needed it.

So Sandstorm from a defense of 28 buff that stuns mobs when they hit the tank to a 400 mitigation buff that stuns mobs when they hit the tank.  It might be outside of the design of each of the classes to have us add hps (a written in weakness in our class given our dps) so this would be perfect.  Plus it would make our 'marquee' buff have some raid utility.

Then reduce the cast time on tranquility to 1 sec or 1.5 secs and we're gtg.  Atm I have tranquility M1 but never use it.  I was in HoF solo healing once and 2 debuffs hit as I was spam healing a damage spike.  I had just got the tank to full health and went for tranquility.  By the time the spell went off the tank was dead.... I'm never going to use it again unless they reduce the cast time.  Plus, have it dispell pacifies and stifles too please like ancient balm

Damage spikes should then be more manageable since we're mitigating more of the damage... think it would be a win-win situation for everyone without overpowering us.

The only downside is how would the mitigation buff affect crusaders?  Would us adding just as much mitigation as them lessen their utility?  Personally, I don't believe so but we would definitely give the bump to anyone who puts conjs in G1.  If anything, us adding mitigation might offset the overpowered warrior AA that lets them self buff ~400 mitigation allowing crusaders to make viable raid tanks again.  Crusader mt, Temp, Shaman, Warden, Conj and dirge in G1 without losing mitigation.

Mayi - LoC

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-08-200611:19 AM

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-08-200611:46 AM

[mikemcmodmi]

Wow, so does silence mean a concensus?  Can we put the recommendations above forward to devs as something like, 'we the wardens feel tranquility should have a shorter cast time, and believe the defense portion of sandstorm should become a mitigation buff' to get a bunch of happy Wardens?

[slayerwarrior]

NO sandstorm should not be touch! u get that change it will just get nerf!

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-09-200611:47 AM

[Touryn]

Yeah, I'm just waiting for some arguments before I run through another update to the list.  Changing duststorm is a solution to bringing parity in raid utility, but definately not the only option.  I'm sure there are a large contengent of people that would rather duststorm be left alone, if for no other reason than to make sure sure the proc stays untouched.

This is also, in part, why I went to the current layout.  Some spells (like Duststorm) aren't really broken, per say.  However, coupled with a variety of other factors, it leads to an aspect of the game having the appearence of being unbalanced (namely, raiding).  This way, I can remove the not-so-broken spells from the Broken list and then visit them during the balance section as a possible solution.  Unless someone can argue that Duststorm being ineffective against orange/epic mobs is actual brokeness, and not merely a possible solution to raid buff inequality, I'll probably yank it from the broken list in the next update and include it when fleshing out the raid section.Edit: Huk'd Un Fonics Werked Fer Me!

Message Edited by Touryn on 04-09-200604:39 PM

[Ridea]

thank you for that list. I do agree with a lot of those things. Our poor ability to pick up on raids may be eliminated with more buffs than no other class could get. To make a reference to WoW(sorry guys), the druids in that game got a buff that no one else could give, and still did decent damage and even better healing.

[slayerwarrior]

So instead helping a mit mt with aviodance , u just change it to were u help aviodance mt with mit what about us who have mit tanks that have their mit cap allready? But their aviodance has not reach cap! How many time's u going see aviodance mt?

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-09-200604:24 PM

[mikemcmodmi]

Nurfing the stun on sandstorm down wouldn't be good if they added mitigation, but it's just atm 28 defense should be a good thing while raiding but it just isn't.  I also don't believe it would have to be nurfed, they designed sandstorm to add defense when defense was a really good thing to buff.  It's just now where even lvl 74 epics hits the tank hit ~86% of the time on a tank with good avoidance with a shielder giving a % chance to use his avoidance... just doesn't seem to have anywhere near the kick it once had.  I imagine vs oranges it would be worse.

Like I said before though.  Wardens are SUPPOSED to have good buffs.  It's in the basic class description   The combat system changed and our buffs haven't changed along with it so we no longer do, so maybe change the effects so that our buffs are once more good again is all.  Like I said, atm our buffs are worse then any cleric or shaman, that's just wrong.  We're supposed to be better buffers then any shaman and better then inquis because we get no debuffs.  We've gone astray hence this thread.  If you add that it's roughly equal healing amongst all priest classes with us having poor buffs with no debuffs the 'you have dps' argument just doesn't cut it imo.  Need buffs for balance reasons.

Btw, you can almost never cap mit.  Even if you hit 6k mit that's only vs a lvl 70 mob.  Vs a lvl 74 or so mob you'd need a lot higher mitigation.  Our raid tank atm (full fabled but missing gloves) only hits 6100 or so with a conj and shielder..... not capped vs any lvl 72+ mob if we tried to cap it.

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-10-200601:35 AM

[Sorano]

Yes turning Sandstorm into a  400 mit increase rather than 28 defence is a good idea. It does suck our power majorly and roots us so  I think it's a fair tradeoff. As someone mentioned in another thread, they use Duststorm instead of Sandstorm while grouping because at the moment the defence means nothing and Duststorm's stun is just as effective with less power drain. That clearly demonstrates that the buff itself needs to change into something more uselful like more mitigation. 

[Rappy]

Plenty of mitigation boosts around, fury still have a much better than 400 mit boost.Maybe if sandstorm added 10 to 20% hp?  Now thats a buff, it works better with our healing method, it wouldnt have stacking issues.

[mikemcmodmi]

Furies would then have a stronger mitigation buff, but in exchange it stuns them.  Hps would work too, just anything but defense   I don't know of a single tank that buffs defense atm or avoidance.  Most tanks I see even prefer shields that give mitigation over the ones that a add higher shield factor.

Remember the days of having a troub, warden and guardian tanking?  100% avoidance made a huge difference.  Those days are long gone.

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-10-200610:23 AM

[slayerwarrior]

I still agree with rappy all the way! I just don't agree with sandstorm being played with, and it will make other healing classes focus on trying get it nerf since some all ready think it's overpowering.We should focus on are buff's that are [Removed for Content] now, and i also think it should be a combo of buff's not just 1 to bring us back in line.ADD note: Everone says are buff's are [Removed for Content] but no one has ever said anything about are group hp buff and how [Removed for Content] it is. I not sure what all was done in revamp, but this buff is [Removed for Content] imo.

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-10-200611:39 AM

[Dragonreal]

if they change the grp hp buff then they have to do it for every other hlr because the buff is the exact same across the board for all hlr classes; the only difference is in which resists it does for each hlr.

[mikemcmodmi]

I don't think they're going to give us an outright new buff.  We already have more buffs then other healers, the problem is their eficacy and strength.

 

We have:

 

Group buffs:

 

Essence of the Great Bear - standard healer hp and resist buff given to each healer

Benediction of the wild - Agi and Wis buff - somewhat weak considering we're a defensive healer but a good buff.

Aspect of the hawk - Wis and power buff - power is not defensive.  You can cast this on mt or another healer for power.

Protection of the wild - standard mit buff where for us it adds resists across the board.

 

Solo buffs: 

 

Regenerative Spores - procs heal - I love this spell. 

Spikecoat - damage shield - standard druid buff.  It isn't going to be changed.

Primitive Instinct - attack buff - meant for tank, helps in hitting orange mobs but wardens generally taken out of g1 for hps so debatable usefulness.  Helps to hold aggro and is a druid buff with furies getting their own variant.

Spirit of the bat - mana regen + some agility.

 

Cast buffs: 

 

Sandstorm - group defense and proc's stun - this is the one I'm suggesting to change

Tunare's watch - anti death group buff - not sure if most people keep it on their hotbars.

Exhaltation of the untamed - standard resist buff given to wardens (elemental), Temps (arcane) and Mystics (nox).

 

Now some of these buffs aren't going to change.  Primitive instinct and spikecoat is a druid spell where furies have their own variant.  I like regenerative spores so don't want to change that   Spirit of the bat is an xpac spell.  Protection of the wild and essence of the great bear are standard healer buffs. 

 

Our specialized buffs are benediction of the wild and aspect of the hawk.  You could argue to replace one of these for a mit/hp buff.  Could work.  Either that or change sandstorm.  The problem with changing tunare's watch into a buff is it would only help from lvl 52-70 because it's a training spell and won't get upgraded. 

 

If we were to change one of our buffs it would have to be either sandstorm, benediction of the wild or aspect of the hawk.  There isn't really another choice.

 

Now from looking at other class forums I see whining everywhere... I hope that's not what I'm doing.  Hard to tell but I do believe we have a bigger issue then most where we can point at our deficiency and say there's a problem.  If we are designed after revamp to be weaker buffers and in exchange got subzero (one extra nuke) I'd like to know.  That wasn't my expectation. 

Now it's obvious that defense is sort of useless for raiding.  Vs even coned opponents in grouping it's good though.  That's why I suggest we remove the defense portion of duststorm and make it mitigation.  The reason for mitigation is it might be by design that we don't add hps.  The thinking might be hps are the realm of shamans and clerics.  It certainly has been up to this point.  Mitigation, if it was changed to add mitigation, would be useful through all realms of the game.  Soloing, grouping and raiding.  That's why I suggest it change to mitigation.  If druids adding hps isn't outside of the structure of the game then hps would be a good alternative as well.  Asking for too much is just dumb imo too.  You just end up getting nurfed down in the end and getting the class envy of other healers making for reblancing issues later.

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 04-10-200603:20 PM

[slayerwarrior]

benediction of the wild now that a good ideal having it change to mit/hp buff so fare is best ideal i have seen. We have a wisdom buff and make good sense in not haveing 2 buff of same type, and little over kill imo.Mikemcmodmike keep your brain going atleast your trying hard please everone !!!!!!!!!!! I also like say thanks to Touryn in making this thread!!!! You guys are very good people!

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-10-200604:36 PM

Message Edited by slayerwarrior on 04-10-200605:02 PM

[Barand]

I wouldn't mind to drop one of our wis buff. I think we are the priest who cap it the more easily. At least it will give use to all of this useless +30WIS stuff.In exchange having hp buff or mitig buff or something usefull would be great.

[frostbane]

Whats wrong with benediction?  Thats a nice amount of wisdom, for the group and for the warden.  The reason warden's cap their wisdom so easily is because with full adept 3 spells benediction adds 66 wisdom, and aspect adds 95.  Thats a 161 wisdom....take even one of those away and i guarentee you will feel it.  Besides it's GREAT having those buffs, because when we tackle an especially nasty mob and we need to up our resists, i can swap out 4 jewelry slots for t7 resist jewelry and not lose any of my effectiveness because i still have so much wisdom.

Instinct is useful on ANY melee based DPS class, not just the MT.  Aspect CAN be placed on a mage for an extra 646 power, but wouldn't it be MUCH better on say your MT?  If your not in that group then give it to the backup tank, or if your not even in that group a mage will work.    No one will complain about getting extra resists and power.

Duststorm works GREAT in groups, and so asking for it to change so you can get some raid utility out of it is dumb because then it's usefulness in groups will change. 

Thats like saying well i'm a warden, and my damage spells don't have a whole lot of raid usefulness, so i want them changed to have some.  Not every spell is made to work in every situation.

But i would like to see Essence of the great bear, or protection of the oak get a revamp.  Adding say some more mitigation to Essence other then the standard healer mititgation would be nice.  Or maybe add an HP component to Protection!