Damage Comparison Between Guardian and Bruiser --Updated-- - Page 4

Drulak · 01-12-2006, 09:03 PM

annaspider wrote:
...Which brings me to:
Drulak wrote:
Bruisers can join groups as non MT's as well , guards generally can't. So we get to be the 1 position MT in 1% of the game - thats 0.0417% of the game content.
Who exactly are the people who only play with the optimum group? I often have a 55 Guardian in my guild groups because he's a good player and a decent bloke. As far as I know it's not illegal to play with people who you like, even if they're a few levels lower than you and not the 'optimum' class for the job. And anyway, a well-played character is, even after all this time, something of a rarity and thus useful in any group.
I know that some players will, for example, refuse a Guardian a place because, let's say, in their current group it would be mathematically 1.006785% more efficient to take a zerker - but what does this say about them as people?
It say they're c*nts. That's what it says.

maybe they are what you say they are - but they are out there and whether they are that or not , its kinda irrelevant , as i still don't get in group whether they be nasty or good..

Pre LU13 i could barely log on without a call to come join a group - post LU13 I have had 2 requests to join groups when i was LFG and 1 group i started. Apart from that it is Guild groups or solo.

So yes people will play with you if they know you , but do you always have people on you know when you log on , I certainly don't.

ZIMTOK · 01-12-2006, 09:23 PM

Drulak wrote:
ZIMTOK wrote:
I see some of my colleagues have beaten me here (Gungo, Gaige, and Anna) and responded to this.

I saw Wasuna's post in Testing Feedback forum and wanted to check out what guardians were saying lately and I find this post. I'm not gonna retype what I wrote in the other forum but I just like to inform you that when a certain dev said that "all tanks can tank equally" only meant that in 6 man groups or smaller. Currently there is only one tank chosen for raid MT and that is a guardian.....sometimes a zerker depending on the situation. My point is that is your niche. You tank for raids. I know some of you dont raid which confuses me why you even chose to play a guardian.

Even before LU13 I could tank any group party but never a raid as a level 50 Bruiser (level 60 now). And before LU13 only Guardians were able to tank high end raids. Guess what has changed? NOTHING!!! Thats right folks...nothing has changed. You are still the undisputed Raid MT. If you chose to be a Guardian and weren't interested in raiding then imho, you chose the wrong close. You should of picked something more versatile. You have to give a little to get a little. If you are still playing a Guardian and don't raid, change your class now. You are a meat shield...thats it, nothing else.

Bruisers can't MT for raids, you don't see us complaining (mostly anyways). Just check our boards if you don't believe me. We just accepted our role and moved on.

Stroicthe made the most inciteful post here and suggest you guys read it again. Good luck in your endeavors.
Thats great and thankyou for your comments , but the reason why most guardians probably complain is that we can't all tank raids. How many raids occur every night - how many guardians play EQ2 - You do the maths. That is the most un thought out argument i have ever heard. there is roughly 1% of the game that is raid content. To say that guards are in the game just to be raid MT's is so stupid , it amazes me you could even write it.
I seriously doubt that was ever the developers thoughts , but don't forget they changed the whole combat system when other fighter archetypes cried out because they were not getting to tank raids. I am not saying they are getting to tank raids now , but they are generally happy enough that they could if they needed to.
It is fine to say bruisers don't moan cos they can't tank raids - but if they could tank only raids and not the other 99% of the game , do you still think that they would not be on the forums complaining ?? Bruisers can join groups as non MT's as well , guards generally can't. So we get to be the 1 position MT in 1% of the game - thats 0.0417% of the game content.
as for why did we start guards if we didn't want to be just raid tanks , how about because we wanted to be group tanks and maybe didn't even know what raiding was when we chose ??

Actually I agree with everything you said. In fact it's my entire point. I feel that if you choose to be a Guardian then that 1% of the game (raids) is why you play the game. To be the MT in a raid is like being "the man", in that there is only one of you and the success of the raid is highly dependent on the success of that MT. That's why every guild's MT is catered to with the guild making sure that the MT is all fabled out and has every master. You are saying the same thing I am but differently. Some players just love to raid and that 1% means everything. Personally I would not play a Guardian because I enjoy the game, I don't have to be "the man". In fact Brawlers in general are not sought out in raids that much due to being a "tweener". Raid leaders like to choose the highest dps, best healers, and best MT and MA. Brawlers really dont fall into any of those catagories. But in Heroic encounters, Brawlers just own. But what I don't understand is that I knew that back on Day 1 of this game. You guys didn't? Don't get me wrong, I would love to be the MT one day and have 23 other players depending on me. Being the MT is like being the Quarterback in football. But I wanted to enjoy the other 99% of the game and thats why I choose the class I did.

Now I could be completely wrong about what SoE has in store for Guardians but from Day 1 up to now it seems that my theory holds true. My comments are entirely my opinion and are not to be taken personally.

Pry · 01-12-2006, 09:52 PM

I played a Guardian because my guild needed a Tank, and the Guardian Class seemed most adept at it. It was a close choice between Guardian and Berserker.

Literally, I didn't pick a Paladin or an SK because I always saw them as off tanks who could heal, and I didn't choose a Monk or Bruiser because I always saw them as DPS fighters and pullers. This is all of course collides with what Moorgard said 2 weeks into his job about what the SOE vision was....and I know, what I say doesn't match this "vision" they have.

It's unbalanced to people then, only because despite all of those *extra* abilities the other 4 fighter classes had, they wanted the ability to tank as well, without giving Guardians anything in return to compensate for taking the only thing a Guardian *could* do. I don't know on whose universe that's considered balance, but I guess that is why me and thousands of other people don't play this idiotic game anymore.

And the most ludicrious part is the argument is now "Well, you have protection abilities!". Abilities that increase mob dps, don't help you solo, don't help you PvP, don't help you do quests or be productive in groups, but that 1% of the entire game boy, that's where a Guardian is the best (which isn't even entirely true)!

It's a nerf, plain and simple.

Owa · 01-12-2006, 10:33 PM

Prynn wrote:
Not that I want to get into a neopolitical discussion here, but it does warrant a response.
There are a lot of people in the world that think that the world would be a better place if everyone worshipped the same God and nothing else. Now that's not irritating to me at all; as people have their beliefs. It's moreover when someone comes to me, with zero knowledge of my life, and tells me that their way is right and mine is wrong under the auspices of trying to "help" me. When they have walked zero miles in my shoes and therefore could never see my point of view.
What you are saying is that you have no other agenda than to come on here and "help" the overall game. But that is a selfish agenda really, because you think the game is better the way it is now and you want to keep it that way. There's other forums for that, there's other places to express it, but I question why you come here and do it if your intention is not to selfishly keep Guardians where they are so that you can get more groups, more tanking opportunities, more things to do in raids, etc. etc. etc.?
And furthermore, your idea of "balance" is different than someone else's might be. I ask you, who are you to tell them that you are right, and they are wrong?
For example, I don't go posting in the monk forum and as a Guardian say "You know, for the balance of the game I think that stone stance has to be nerfed in some fashion!". Because it's none of my business as I don't play a Monk. I am not an expert, and I dunno, I tend to stay out of things that don't concern me.
I care about Guardians and what happens to our class. I have yet to see one single monk or bruiser come on this forum and say anything remotely that would help a Guardian or contribute to the mystical "fighter balance". Because right now, it's as unbalanced and broken as it was pre-LU13, and there are many examples of it. I know you will go and look up innocuous posts by monks where it is said "I think you should get a small increase in DPS!" or "u r teh best tnk in game + i thk atk is bttr 4 u".

Hum...where to start?

I never said your way was wrong and mine was right. I'm not even sure I have a way, frankly.

It is possible to see another person's point of view without being that person. Only psychopaths and some lawyers lack this ability.

'What you are saying is that you have no other agenda than to come on here and "help" the overall game.' I am? I can't find that post.

I 'think the game is better as it is...and want to keep it that way'? Can't find that post either.

'Your intention is ... to selfishly keep Guardians where they are so that you can get more groups, more tanking opportunities, more things to do in raids, etc. etc. etc' Ok, now you're just being paranoid.

If you want people to merely champion their own agenda to the detriment of everyone else, keep posting - and eventually people like you will end up making people like me be like people like you.

StGeorg · 01-12-2006, 10:36 PM

You know what I love most of all is people coming here and posting we should be happy because, though we do have NO soloability and bring nothing to a group that already has a tank, we can be raid MT once we reach level 50+. That is really is something.

Can someone please explain to me how we are to level to that range only being good a raid-tanking? Are we supposed to level through collection quests or by running city arronds from NQ to QH or something?

Raid encounters is the worst experience out there. One cannot level from Raids alone.

Ante - 58 Gurad Unrest

Storm_Runner · 01-12-2006, 10:51 PM

Zimtok,

Actually I knew nothing about raids or tanking when I chose to play a guardian. I love the fantasy genre. That's why I read that type of book and play that type of game. I've played Baldur's Gate, Diablo, Arcanum, Morrowwind and Neverwinter Nights to name a few, but these are all single player PC RPGs. EQ2 is my first MMORPG and a friend talked me into trying it (not that it took much convincing :smileyhappy SMILEY with her since she had been playing online RPGs for years. I chose a guardian based on 2 things...roleplaying and survivability. For roleplaying I wanted to be the classic RPG fighter...I wanted to be the big guy in the heavy armor with sword and shield slashing away at the enemy. I didn't choose monk or bruiser for that because it doesn't fit in with my view of that type of fighter. I didn't choose Pally or SK because they seem as much priest as fighter to me. That left Guardian or Beserker. It was a really tough choice but I went with Guardian because I was new to this type of game and I wanted to pick a toon that would die less. With the class description of a guardian being more defensive I figured that would be a better choice to start out with. It didn't help though...I still died plenty. In fact I died so often right at the beginning I thought about taking the last name "ofthemanydeaths" :smileyvery-happy:. But if I'd known then what I know now I would have gone with a Beserker. So you see...I didn't pick Guardian to tank raids...I didn't even know raids existed. So to answer your question...no I didn't know that on day one.

Guardians need some work. They need to have a secondary role when they aren't MT or doing what you feel is why we chose our class. Guardians should be able to get just as much fun and enjoyment out of the game as any other class and that means being able to experience all aspects of the game and have fun doing so. That includes soloing and small grouping not just raiding. I didn't choose this class to be just a raid MT and only a raid MT. I chose it (and so did many other guards I'm sure) because it fit my style and to play as much of the game as possible and have fun doing so. LU13 changed much of that and now we need some fixing to bring that enjoyment back. There is no class named Raid Main Tank. There are 6 classes of tank and all of them should be able to enjoy all aspects of the game. Currently for many guards (and other classes of tank possibly but I won't comment on them since I'm not familiar with their class or their problems) that isn't possible. I don't want any other class nerfed. I don't want anything taken away from anyone. I just want some things added to guardians to bring back that sense of wonder and excitement I felt when I first started playing this game. Is that too much to ask for?

Pry · 01-12-2006, 11:14 PM

annaspider wrote:
If you want people to merely champion their own agenda to the detriment of everyone else, keep posting - and eventually people like you will end up making people like me be like people like you.

All I have to say is stop, take a look around and it happens all over these boards. Not just here, and not just by me.

Ultimately, I would like for there to be a game where everyone is happy, and feels good about it because then there would be more people to play and have fun with. But you can't please all of the people all of the time, that is a pipe dream. You can work toward the goal of synergy but it is impossible to ever achieve it in an environment such as a MMOG.

So given that if I am displeased with the game, and as someone who pays for it just like everyone else does, what are my options? Sit back and pretend as if there is nothing wrong, or wait for ineffectual developers to realise that there is a problem? Or perhaps I should just swallow all of those things that are wrong with the product I am paying for because it makes other people happy?

And then I am reminded of a couple of things Abraham Lincoln said. First was:

Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other thing.

And then:

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.

Anyway, I am simply not paranoid. Someone close to me plays a Fury, but I don't go stinking up their forums with B.S. rhetoric about a class I don't play. I don't go into a Doctor's office and point at patients and say "You're wrong! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thermometers are better!", and say I am doing it in the name of medicine as a whole. And I certainly don't drive down the street pulling vehicles over because the big trucks take up more of the road and block traffic, to attempt to improve the overall traffic flow. I take a different route instead, because that is what normal, sane people do.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Owa · 01-13-2006, 12:15 AM

Prynn wrote:
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I dunno about giving you the 'serenity to accept the things [you] cannot change, the courage to change the things [you] can, and the wisdom to know the difference,' but he's doing a helluva job helping you to see the words that no one wrote.

Pry · 01-13-2006, 01:05 AM

Monk forums are over there ------>

Krooner · 01-13-2006, 01:19 AM

Actually its down there I on the forum

I

/

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 01-12-200612:21 PM

Pry · 01-13-2006, 01:24 AM

I was not leet enough to make a down arrow!

Krooner · 01-13-2006, 02:00 AM

Prynn.

Sorry man. :smileytongue:

ZIMTOK · 01-13-2006, 03:15 AM

Storm_Runner wrote:
Zimtok,
Actually I knew nothing about raids or tanking when I chose to play a guardian. I love the fantasy genre. That's why I read that type of book and play that type of game. I've played Baldur's Gate, Diablo, Arcanum, Morrowwind and Neverwinter Nights to name a few, but these are all single player PC RPGs. EQ2 is my first MMORPG and a friend talked me into trying it (not that it took much convincing :smileyhappy with her since she had been playing online RPGs for years. I chose a guardian based on 2 things...roleplaying and survivability. For roleplaying I wanted to be the classic RPG fighter...I wanted to be the big guy in the heavy armor with sword and shield slashing away at the enemy. I didn't choose monk or bruiser for that because it doesn't fit in with my view of that type of fighter. I didn't choose Pally or SK because they seem as much priest as fighter to me. That left Guardian or Beserker. It was a really tough choice but I went with Guardian because I was new to this type of game and I wanted to pick a toon that would die less. With the class description of a guardian being more defensive I figured that would be a better choice to start out with. It didn't help though...I still died plenty. In fact I died so often right at the beginning I thought about taking the last name "ofthemanydeaths" :smileyvery-happy:. But if I'd known then what I know now I would have gone with a Beserker. So you see...I didn't pick Guardian to tank raids...I didn't even know raids existed. So to answer your question...no I didn't know that on day one.
Guardians need some work. They need to have a secondary role when they aren't MT or doing what you feel is why we chose our class. Guardians should be able to get just as much fun and enjoyment out of the game as any other class and that means being able to experience all aspects of the game and have fun doing so. That includes soloing and small grouping not just raiding. I didn't choose this class to be just a raid MT and only a raid MT. I chose it (and so did many other guards I'm sure) because it fit my style and to play as much of the game as possible and have fun doing so. LU13 changed much of that and now we need some fixing to bring that enjoyment back. There is no class named Raid Main Tank. There are 6 classes of tank and all of them should be able to enjoy all aspects of the game. Currently for many guards (and other classes of tank possibly but I won't comment on them since I'm not familiar with their class or their problems) that isn't possible. I don't want any other class nerfed. I don't want anything taken away from anyone. I just want some things added to guardians to bring back that sense of wonder and excitement I felt when I first started playing this game. Is that too much to ask for?

Bro I feel for yah. SoE says alot of stuff and doesnt' back it up. I stopped trying to ask for this fix and that fix long ago. Like when they said "All tanks can tank equally". My first reaction was "Awesome! I can MT for raids now!"....not:smileysad:. That and other claims they havent come through with have just made me accept things the way they are. I'm tired of being disappointed so I go with what's working best. I know its a crappy way to look at things but do I really have a choice? I just see things of how they are not what someone says they should be.

One thing I want to apologize for was to the Guardians who didn't have this main goal of being the MT for raids. If you have this class and you chose it for just general gameplay then I hope that SOE finds some way of satisfying you. But if it was me, I would just reroll. I just don't think SoE is gonna come through. It's no different when it comes to the DPS and Healing Tiers. Everyone is in the same boat...I just decided to find the side of the boat where I don't get wet.:smileytongue:

Krooner · 01-13-2006, 03:41 AM

ZIMTOK wrote: It's no different when it comes to the DPS and Healing Tiers. Everyone is in the same boat...I just decided to find the side of the boat where I don't get wet.

There were 3 Irishmen lost at sea. One sees a bottle and plucks it from the water. He pulls the cork from it hoping to find something tasty to drink. Out pops a genie and tells him he can have one wish.

One asks the Irishmen.

Yes says the genie I have been in there a long time and Im pretty sore about that so one is all you get.

The Irishmens two buddies are thinking wish us home when the thirsty man brurts out. I want the whole sea to to be the most delicious stout in the world. poof the sea is now a rich dark tastey brew.

The men angry at first decide it wasnt such a bad wish and sit back for a long refreshing drink. Some time later one of the Irishmen looks over to his buddy who made the wish.. He thinks for a second then smacks him up side the head..

Good Going you dolt now we have to P in the boat.

Get what I mean.... were all gonna get wet sooner or later.

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 01-12-200602:44 PM

Drulak · 01-13-2006, 05:57 PM

Zimtok , not sure how many are like me , but i definately did not create a guardian to tank raids. I wanted to tank in groups , but I left EQ1 before i was of a level to raid properly and so didn't know anything about raids and had certainly never been on one.

I had a warrior in EQ1 (main was a druid though) and i understood that at higher levels , he was the class chosen to tank for groups (from me joining those groups with my druid), thats why i chose a guardian in EQ2 for group tanking and a lot bigger percentage of the game.

I am sure most raid MT's especially the guild ones are die hard MTers and knew exactly what they were doing when they chose Guardian.

I didn't , But considering how many guards are in game and how many Raid MT positions there are , i am sure i am not alone.

ADD to that the fact it was not like that for a year of playing and you have the current situation and why we are upset. Yes we could reroll , but it would have been so much easier to have rerolled at 20th , than now at 55th. I have built a monk to 30th (post LU13) but i just cannot go through the whole ZEK / EL / FEERROTT again , i just can't do it. In the end the solution was easy for me. But i would have much rather stayed with EQ2 and carried on with my Guardian.

(NB if the warrior tank situation changed after i left EQ1 , i apologise , no need to discuss it here , was like that when i left EQ1(a while back))

Message Edited by Drulak on 01-13-200601:02 PM

Terron · 01-13-2006, 06:03 PM

Have you been reading my mind Storm_runner? :smileyhappy:I as going to write something very similar.Based on the descriptions Guardian appeared to suit how I wanted to play best. Even when I got to make the choice I had very little experience of tanking (and was not impressed by being insulted for "not knowing my job" - I didn't but I was new to the game and I died too). I was happy that warrior was the right choice, being a raging berserker was not what I wanted, and extra defense to help me survive my mistakes seemed a good idea.

Storm_Runner · 01-13-2006, 06:24 PM

Zimtok,

No worries man and no need to apologize to me. It's all good. I just wanted to let you know where I was coming from. Personally I'm rapidly getting to the point you're at and moving to the other side of the boat :smileyhappy: . That's why I have a Ranger, Conjuror, and a Warlock as alts. And it may be Guardian blasphemy but I'm considering making a Bruiser after all the changes from LU19A + B go live. Moving to the other side of the boat may not do us any good though because there's someone drilling holes in the bottom of it :smileytongue: .

Pjackson,

Warped minds think alike eh? :smileyvery-happy:

ZIMTOK · 01-13-2006, 07:30 PM

Storm_Runner wrote:
Moving to the other side of the boat may not do us any good though because there's someone drilling holes in the bottom of it :smileytongue: .
Pjackson,
Warped minds think alike eh? :smileyvery-happy:

LOL...so true. Look there's another ship over there! Flag says "Vanguard". Hmmmm:smileywink:

01-12-2006, 09:03 PM	#91
Drulak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 234	annaspider wrote: ...Which brings me to: Drulak wrote: Bruisers can join groups as non MT's as well , guards generally can't. So we get to be the 1 position MT in 1% of the game - thats 0.0417% of the game content. Who exactly are the people who only play with the optimum group? I often have a 55 Guardian in my guild groups because he's a good player and a decent bloke. As far as I know it's not illegal to play with people who you like, even if they're a few levels lower than you and not the 'optimum' class for the job. And anyway, a well-played character is, even after all this time, something of a rarity and thus useful in any group. I know that some players will, for example, refuse a Guardian a place because, let's say, in their current group it would be mathematically 1.006785% more efficient to take a zerker - but what does this say about them as people? It say they're c*nts. That's what it says. maybe they are what you say they are - but they are out there and whether they are that or not , its kinda irrelevant , as i still don't get in group whether they be nasty or good.. Pre LU13 i could barely log on without a call to come join a group - post LU13 I have had 2 requests to join groups when i was LFG and 1 group i started. Apart from that it is Guild groups or solo. So yes people will play with you if they know you , but do you always have people on you know when you log on , I certainly don't. __________________ Zobiex 90 Bezerker -EX-Guardian Cyan 42 EX-provisioner Drulakx 90Reinstated EX-Alchemist Tattood 38Reinstated EX-Monk Zobios 90 Warlock

01-12-2006, 09:23 PM	#92
ZIMTOK Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 34	Drulak wrote: ZIMTOK wrote: I see some of my colleagues have beaten me here (Gungo, Gaige, and Anna) and responded to this. I saw Wasuna's post in Testing Feedback forum and wanted to check out what guardians were saying lately and I find this post. I'm not gonna retype what I wrote in the other forum but I just like to inform you that when a certain dev said that "all tanks can tank equally" only meant that in 6 man groups or smaller. Currently there is only one tank chosen for raid MT and that is a guardian.....sometimes a zerker depending on the situation. My point is that is your niche. You tank for raids. I know some of you dont raid which confuses me why you even chose to play a guardian. Even before LU13 I could tank any group party but never a raid as a level 50 Bruiser (level 60 now). And before LU13 only Guardians were able to tank high end raids. Guess what has changed? NOTHING!!! Thats right folks...nothing has changed. You are still the undisputed Raid MT. If you chose to be a Guardian and weren't interested in raiding then imho, you chose the wrong close. You should of picked something more versatile. You have to give a little to get a little. If you are still playing a Guardian and don't raid, change your class now. You are a meat shield...thats it, nothing else. Bruisers can't MT for raids, you don't see us complaining (mostly anyways). Just check our boards if you don't believe me. We just accepted our role and moved on. Stroicthe made the most inciteful post here and suggest you guys read it again. Good luck in your endeavors. Thats great and thankyou for your comments , but the reason why most guardians probably complain is that we can't all tank raids. How many raids occur every night - how many guardians play EQ2 - You do the maths. That is the most un thought out argument i have ever heard. there is roughly 1% of the game that is raid content. To say that guards are in the game just to be raid MT's is so stupid , it amazes me you could even write it. I seriously doubt that was ever the developers thoughts , but don't forget they changed the whole combat system when other fighter archetypes cried out because they were not getting to tank raids. I am not saying they are getting to tank raids now , but they are generally happy enough that they could if they needed to. It is fine to say bruisers don't moan cos they can't tank raids - but if they could tank only raids and not the other 99% of the game , do you still think that they would not be on the forums complaining ?? Bruisers can join groups as non MT's as well , guards generally can't. So we get to be the 1 position MT in 1% of the game - thats 0.0417% of the game content. as for why did we start guards if we didn't want to be just raid tanks , how about because we wanted to be group tanks and maybe didn't even know what raiding was when we chose ?? Actually I agree with everything you said. In fact it's my entire point. I feel that if you choose to be a Guardian then that 1% of the game (raids) is why you play the game. To be the MT in a raid is like being "the man", in that there is only one of you and the success of the raid is highly dependent on the success of that MT. That's why every guild's MT is catered to with the guild making sure that the MT is all fabled out and has every master. You are saying the same thing I am but differently. Some players just love to raid and that 1% means everything. Personally I would not play a Guardian because I enjoy the game, I don't have to be "the man". In fact Brawlers in general are not sought out in raids that much due to being a "tweener". Raid leaders like to choose the highest dps, best healers, and best MT and MA. Brawlers really dont fall into any of those catagories. But in Heroic encounters, Brawlers just own. But what I don't understand is that I knew that back on Day 1 of this game. You guys didn't? Don't get me wrong, I would love to be the MT one day and have 23 other players depending on me. Being the MT is like being the Quarterback in football. But I wanted to enjoy the other 99% of the game and thats why I choose the class I did. Now I could be completely wrong about what SoE has in store for Guardians but from Day 1 up to now it seems that my theory holds true. My comments are entirely my opinion and are not to be taken personally.

01-12-2006, 10:33 PM	#94
Owa General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 944	Prynn wrote: Not that I want to get into a neopolitical discussion here, but it does warrant a response. There are a lot of people in the world that think that the world would be a better place if everyone worshipped the same God and nothing else. Now that's not irritating to me at all; as people have their beliefs. It's moreover when someone comes to me, with zero knowledge of my life, and tells me that their way is right and mine is wrong under the auspices of trying to "help" me. When they have walked zero miles in my shoes and therefore could never see my point of view. What you are saying is that you have no other agenda than to come on here and "help" the overall game. But that is a selfish agenda really, because you think the game is better the way it is now and you want to keep it that way. There's other forums for that, there's other places to express it, but I question why you come here and do it if your intention is not to selfishly keep Guardians where they are so that you can get more groups, more tanking opportunities, more things to do in raids, etc. etc. etc.? And furthermore, your idea of "balance" is different than someone else's might be. I ask you, who are you to tell them that you are right, and they are wrong? For example, I don't go posting in the monk forum and as a Guardian say "You know, for the balance of the game I think that stone stance has to be nerfed in some fashion!". Because it's none of my business as I don't play a Monk. I am not an expert, and I dunno, I tend to stay out of things that don't concern me. I care about Guardians and what happens to our class. I have yet to see one single monk or bruiser come on this forum and say anything remotely that would help a Guardian or contribute to the mystical "fighter balance". Because right now, it's as unbalanced and broken as it was pre-LU13, and there are many examples of it. I know you will go and look up innocuous posts by monks where it is said "I think you should get a small increase in DPS!" or "u r teh best tnk in game + i thk atk is bttr 4 u". Hum...where to start? I never said your way was wrong and mine was right. I'm not even sure I have a way, frankly. It is possible to see another person's point of view without being that person. Only psychopaths and some lawyers lack this ability. 'What you are saying is that you have no other agenda than to come on here and "help" the overall game.' I am? I can't find that post. I 'think the game is better as it is...and want to keep it that way'? Can't find that post either. 'Your intention is ... to selfishly keep Guardians where they are so that you can get more groups, more tanking opportunities, more things to do in raids, etc. etc. etc' Ok, now you're just being paranoid. If you want people to merely champion their own agenda to the detriment of everyone else, keep posting - and eventually people like you will end up making people like me be like people like you. __________________

01-12-2006, 10:51 PM	#96
Storm_Runner Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 131	Zimtok, Actually I knew nothing about raids or tanking when I chose to play a guardian. I love the fantasy genre. That's why I read that type of book and play that type of game. I've played Baldur's Gate, Diablo, Arcanum, Morrowwind and Neverwinter Nights to name a few, but these are all single player PC RPGs. EQ2 is my first MMORPG and a friend talked me into trying it (not that it took much convincing :smileyhappy with her since she had been playing online RPGs for years. I chose a guardian based on 2 things...roleplaying and survivability. For roleplaying I wanted to be the classic RPG fighter...I wanted to be the big guy in the heavy armor with sword and shield slashing away at the enemy. I didn't choose monk or bruiser for that because it doesn't fit in with my view of that type of fighter. I didn't choose Pally or SK because they seem as much priest as fighter to me. That left Guardian or Beserker. It was a really tough choice but I went with Guardian because I was new to this type of game and I wanted to pick a toon that would die less. With the class description of a guardian being more defensive I figured that would be a better choice to start out with. It didn't help though...I still died plenty. In fact I died so often right at the beginning I thought about taking the last name "ofthemanydeaths" :smileyvery-happy:. But if I'd known then what I know now I would have gone with a Beserker. So you see...I didn't pick Guardian to tank raids...I didn't even know raids existed. So to answer your question...no I didn't know that on day one. Guardians need some work. They need to have a secondary role when they aren't MT or doing what you feel is why we chose our class. Guardians should be able to get just as much fun and enjoyment out of the game as any other class and that means being able to experience all aspects of the game and have fun doing so. That includes soloing and small grouping not just raiding. I didn't choose this class to be just a raid MT and only a raid MT. I chose it (and so did many other guards I'm sure) because it fit my style and to play as much of the game as possible and have fun doing so. LU13 changed much of that and now we need some fixing to bring that enjoyment back. There is no class named Raid Main Tank. There are 6 classes of tank and all of them should be able to enjoy all aspects of the game. Currently for many guards (and other classes of tank possibly but I won't comment on them since I'm not familiar with their class or their problems) that isn't possible. I don't want any other class nerfed. I don't want anything taken away from anyone. I just want some things added to guardians to bring back that sense of wonder and excitement I felt when I first started playing this game. Is that too much to ask for? __________________ Balyn - Barbarian Berserker; Tuatha - Fae Swashbuckler Krishall - Kerran Ranger; Leejon - Gnome Conjuror Kruhl - Ogre Bruiser; Sthyss - Iksar Fury Residents of Butcherblock

01-12-2006, 11:14 PM	#97
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	annaspider wrote: If you want people to merely champion their own agenda to the detriment of everyone else, keep posting - and eventually people like you will end up making people like me be like people like you. All I have to say is stop, take a look around and it happens all over these boards. Not just here, and not just by me. Ultimately, I would like for there to be a game where everyone is happy, and feels good about it because then there would be more people to play and have fun with. But you can't please all of the people all of the time, that is a pipe dream. You can work toward the goal of synergy but it is impossible to ever achieve it in an environment such as a MMOG. So given that if I am displeased with the game, and as someone who pays for it just like everyone else does, what are my options? Sit back and pretend as if there is nothing wrong, or wait for ineffectual developers to realise that there is a problem? Or perhaps I should just swallow all of those things that are wrong with the product I am paying for because it makes other people happy? And then I am reminded of a couple of things Abraham Lincoln said. First was: Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other thing. And then: You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. Anyway, I am simply not paranoid. Someone close to me plays a Fury, but I don't go stinking up their forums with B.S. rhetoric about a class I don't play. I don't go into a Doctor's office and point at patients and say "You're wrong! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thermometers are better!", and say I am doing it in the name of medicine as a whole. And I certainly don't drive down the street pulling vehicles over because the big trucks take up more of the road and block traffic, to attempt to improve the overall traffic flow. I take a different route instead, because that is what normal, sane people do. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

01-12-2006, 09:52 PM	#93
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	I played a Guardian because my guild needed a Tank, and the Guardian Class seemed most adept at it. It was a close choice between Guardian and Berserker. Literally, I didn't pick a Paladin or an SK because I always saw them as off tanks who could heal, and I didn't choose a Monk or Bruiser because I always saw them as DPS fighters and pullers. This is all of course collides with what Moorgard said 2 weeks into his job about what the SOE vision was....and I know, what I say doesn't match this "vision" they have. It's unbalanced to people then, only because despite all of those extra abilities the other 4 fighter classes had, they wanted the ability to tank as well, without giving Guardians anything in return to compensate for taking the only thing a Guardian could do. I don't know on whose universe that's considered balance, but I guess that is why me and thousands of other people don't play this idiotic game anymore. And the most ludicrious part is the argument is now "Well, you have protection abilities!". Abilities that increase mob dps, don't help you solo, don't help you PvP, don't help you do quests or be productive in groups, but that 1% of the entire game boy, that's where a Guardian is the best (which isn't even entirely true)! It's a nerf, plain and simple.

01-12-2006, 10:36 PM	#95
StGeorg Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 44	You know what I love most of all is people coming here and posting we should be happy because, though we do have NO soloability and bring nothing to a group that already has a tank, we can be raid MT once we reach level 50+. That is really is something. Can someone please explain to me how we are to level to that range only being good a raid-tanking? Are we supposed to level through collection quests or by running city arronds from NQ to QH or something? Raid encounters is the worst experience out there. One cannot level from Raids alone. Ante - 58 Gurad Unrest

01-13-2006, 12:15 AM	#98
Owa General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 944	Prynn wrote: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. I dunno about giving you the 'serenity to accept the things [you] cannot change, the courage to change the things [you] can, and the wisdom to know the difference,' but he's doing a helluva job helping you to see the words that no one wrote. __________________

01-13-2006, 01:05 AM	#99
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	Monk forums are over there ------>

01-13-2006, 01:19 AM	#100
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	Actually its down there I on the forum I I / Message Edited by Warbird1 on 01-12-200612:21 PM

01-13-2006, 01:24 AM	#101
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	I was not leet enough to make a down arrow!

01-13-2006, 02:00 AM	#102
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	Prynn. Sorry man. :smileytongue:

01-13-2006, 03:15 AM	#103
ZIMTOK Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 34	Storm_Runner wrote: Zimtok, Actually I knew nothing about raids or tanking when I chose to play a guardian. I love the fantasy genre. That's why I read that type of book and play that type of game. I've played Baldur's Gate, Diablo, Arcanum, Morrowwind and Neverwinter Nights to name a few, but these are all single player PC RPGs. EQ2 is my first MMORPG and a friend talked me into trying it (not that it took much convincing :smileyhappy with her since she had been playing online RPGs for years. I chose a guardian based on 2 things...roleplaying and survivability. For roleplaying I wanted to be the classic RPG fighter...I wanted to be the big guy in the heavy armor with sword and shield slashing away at the enemy. I didn't choose monk or bruiser for that because it doesn't fit in with my view of that type of fighter. I didn't choose Pally or SK because they seem as much priest as fighter to me. That left Guardian or Beserker. It was a really tough choice but I went with Guardian because I was new to this type of game and I wanted to pick a toon that would die less. With the class description of a guardian being more defensive I figured that would be a better choice to start out with. It didn't help though...I still died plenty. In fact I died so often right at the beginning I thought about taking the last name "ofthemanydeaths" :smileyvery-happy:. But if I'd known then what I know now I would have gone with a Beserker. So you see...I didn't pick Guardian to tank raids...I didn't even know raids existed. So to answer your question...no I didn't know that on day one. Guardians need some work. They need to have a secondary role when they aren't MT or doing what you feel is why we chose our class. Guardians should be able to get just as much fun and enjoyment out of the game as any other class and that means being able to experience all aspects of the game and have fun doing so. That includes soloing and small grouping not just raiding. I didn't choose this class to be just a raid MT and only a raid MT. I chose it (and so did many other guards I'm sure) because it fit my style and to play as much of the game as possible and have fun doing so. LU13 changed much of that and now we need some fixing to bring that enjoyment back. There is no class named Raid Main Tank. There are 6 classes of tank and all of them should be able to enjoy all aspects of the game. Currently for many guards (and other classes of tank possibly but I won't comment on them since I'm not familiar with their class or their problems) that isn't possible. I don't want any other class nerfed. I don't want anything taken away from anyone. I just want some things added to guardians to bring back that sense of wonder and excitement I felt when I first started playing this game. Is that too much to ask for? Bro I feel for yah. SoE says alot of stuff and doesnt' back it up. I stopped trying to ask for this fix and that fix long ago. Like when they said "All tanks can tank equally". My first reaction was "Awesome! I can MT for raids now!"....not:smileysad:. That and other claims they havent come through with have just made me accept things the way they are. I'm tired of being disappointed so I go with what's working best. I know its a crappy way to look at things but do I really have a choice? I just see things of how they are not what someone says they should be. One thing I want to apologize for was to the Guardians who didn't have this main goal of being the MT for raids. If you have this class and you chose it for just general gameplay then I hope that SOE finds some way of satisfying you. But if it was me, I would just reroll. I just don't think SoE is gonna come through. It's no different when it comes to the DPS and Healing Tiers. Everyone is in the same boat...I just decided to find the side of the boat where I don't get wet.:smileytongue:

01-13-2006, 03:41 AM	#104
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	ZIMTOK wrote: It's no different when it comes to the DPS and Healing Tiers. Everyone is in the same boat...I just decided to find the side of the boat where I don't get wet. There were 3 Irishmen lost at sea. One sees a bottle and plucks it from the water. He pulls the cork from it hoping to find something tasty to drink. Out pops a genie and tells him he can have one wish. One asks the Irishmen. Yes says the genie I have been in there a long time and Im pretty sore about that so one is all you get. The Irishmens two buddies are thinking wish us home when the thirsty man brurts out. I want the whole sea to to be the most delicious stout in the world. poof the sea is now a rich dark tastey brew. The men angry at first decide it wasnt such a bad wish and sit back for a long refreshing drink. Some time later one of the Irishmen looks over to his buddy who made the wish.. He thinks for a second then smacks him up side the head.. Good Going you dolt now we have to P in the boat. Get what I mean.... were all gonna get wet sooner or later. Message Edited by Warbird1 on 01-12-200602:44 PM

01-13-2006, 05:57 PM	#105
Drulak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 234	Zimtok , not sure how many are like me , but i definately did not create a guardian to tank raids. I wanted to tank in groups , but I left EQ1 before i was of a level to raid properly and so didn't know anything about raids and had certainly never been on one. I had a warrior in EQ1 (main was a druid though) and i understood that at higher levels , he was the class chosen to tank for groups (from me joining those groups with my druid), thats why i chose a guardian in EQ2 for group tanking and a lot bigger percentage of the game. I am sure most raid MT's especially the guild ones are die hard MTers and knew exactly what they were doing when they chose Guardian. I didn't , But considering how many guards are in game and how many Raid MT positions there are , i am sure i am not alone. ADD to that the fact it was not like that for a year of playing and you have the current situation and why we are upset. Yes we could reroll , but it would have been so much easier to have rerolled at 20th , than now at 55th. I have built a monk to 30th (post LU13) but i just cannot go through the whole ZEK / EL / FEERROTT again , i just can't do it. In the end the solution was easy for me. But i would have much rather stayed with EQ2 and carried on with my Guardian. (NB if the warrior tank situation changed after i left EQ1 , i apologise , no need to discuss it here , was like that when i left EQ1(a while back)) Message Edited by Drulak on 01-13-200601:02 PM __________________ Zobiex 90 Bezerker -EX-Guardian Cyan 42 EX-provisioner Drulakx 90Reinstated EX-Alchemist Tattood 38Reinstated EX-Monk Zobios 90 Warlock

01-13-2006, 06:03 PM	#106
Terron Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, England Posts: 2,309	Have you been reading my mind Storm_runner? :smileyhappy:I as going to write something very similar.Based on the descriptions Guardian appeared to suit how I wanted to play best. Even when I got to make the choice I had very little experience of tanking (and was not impressed by being insulted for "not knowing my job" - I didn't but I was new to the game and I died too). I was happy that warrior was the right choice, being a raging berserker was not what I wanted, and extra defense to help me survive my mistakes seemed a good idea. __________________

01-13-2006, 06:24 PM	#107
Storm_Runner Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 131	Zimtok, No worries man and no need to apologize to me. It's all good. I just wanted to let you know where I was coming from. Personally I'm rapidly getting to the point you're at and moving to the other side of the boat :smileyhappy: . That's why I have a Ranger, Conjuror, and a Warlock as alts. And it may be Guardian blasphemy but I'm considering making a Bruiser after all the changes from LU19A + B go live. Moving to the other side of the boat may not do us any good though because there's someone drilling holes in the bottom of it :smileytongue: . Pjackson, Warped minds think alike eh? :smileyvery-happy: __________________ Balyn - Barbarian Berserker; Tuatha - Fae Swashbuckler Krishall - Kerran Ranger; Leejon - Gnome Conjuror Kruhl - Ogre Bruiser; Sthyss - Iksar Fury Residents of Butcherblock

01-13-2006, 07:30 PM	#108
ZIMTOK Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 34	Storm_Runner wrote: Moving to the other side of the boat may not do us any good though because there's someone drilling holes in the bottom of it :smileytongue: . Pjackson, Warped minds think alike eh? :smileyvery-happy: LOL...so true. Look there's another ship over there! Flag says "Vanguard". Hmmmm:smileywink: