Pally AA's - Page 3

Anariale · 02-12-2006, 02:42 AM

"When Paladins realize that they are not intended to be the go-to raid tank, and settle into the role they ARE intended as (support, back up tank, specialist tanks) then they will be much happier. I'm more than happy to hand off my mitigation buff to a tank if it means bigger better success for my group or raid. Its my role. I play my part to help assist in a win, not to boost my own ego."

No one tank was designed to be MT for every encounter. Paladins have an edge against heavy casting raid mobs while Guardians have an edge when the mobs are heavy melee. Noone, nowhere said that Guardians were intended to be the give-all, end-all raid tank. In fact, SOE has said the exact opposite... that it is more player-based than class-based and certain circumstances will orient themselves slightly better to one class over another.

The problem lies more with the common misconceptions of classes. People want to believe that there is one best way to do something, when its simply not true. Furthermore, its attitudes like this that reinforce player rumor and conjecture as to the abilities of a tank class... reinforcing the false notion of the "only one tank".

Thus, dont even start the crap of "Paladins arent meant to tank". Noone here wants to hear it anyways, and no matter how misconceived your notions may be youre not going to convince people who do it every day that we are wrong.

Message Edited by Anariale on 02-11-200604:42 PM

Rhianni · 02-12-2006, 02:53 AM

Kahuna5150 wrote:
What are AA's?
I'm a lvl44 Paladin and was wondering what these are. Are they for lvl50+?
Any info would be nice.

On Feb 21 (or 22) the next expansion comes out. It allows lvl 20 and up to get additional powers. You get it by doing what we already do (quest, kill, explore) and it is another experiance bar to fill up. We get 50 points (I am assuming 50 levels here) to go towards the powers listed above.

Leawyn · 02-12-2006, 02:55 AM

Anariale wrote:
"When Paladins realize that they are not intended to be the go-to raid tank, and settle into the role they ARE intended as (support, back up tank, specialist tanks) then they will be much happier. I'm more than happy to hand off my mitigation buff to a tank if it means bigger better success for my group or raid. Its my role. I play my part to help assist in a win, not to boost my own ego."

No one tank was designed to be MT for every encounter. Paladins have an edge against heavy casting raid mobs while Guardians have an edge when the mobs are heavy melee. Noone, nowhere said that Guardians were intended to be the give-all, end-all raid tank. In fact, SOE has said the exact opposite... that it is more player-based than class-based and certain circumstances will orient themselves slightly better to one class over another.

The problem lies more with the common misconceptions of classes. People want to believe that there is one best way to do something, when its simply not true. Furthermore, its attitudes like this that reinforce player rumor and conjecture as to the abilities of a tank class... reinforcing the false notion of the "only one tank".

Thus, dont even start the crap of "Paladins arent meant to tank". Noone here wants to hear it anyways, and no matter how misconceived your notions may be youre not going to convince people who do it every day that we are wrong.

Message Edited by Anariale on 02-11-200604:42 PM

I *NEVER* said Paladins weren't meant to tank. I said we were meant to tank is certain situations (aka "Specialist tank&quot SMILEY

. I also agree Guards are not the "end all, be all raid tank". In most cases they are the obvious choice, especially when facing a mob for the first time of which you have little to no knowledge. Find out what it does, then rearrange accordingly. But they should never be considered the ONLY choice.What I'm tired of hearing is Paladins wanting to tank EVERYTHING. Well, I'm sorry, but we're not meant to tank EVERYTHING. We are designed to better withstand certain spells and tank in certain circumstances (I'm not nearly high enough level to pretend I know what those are). But I'm tired of other Pallies whining because they don't have mitigation or hps like a Guard. Well... you want hps and mit like a guard, play a guard. You want to be something special, more than just a meat sheild, then continue to play your Pally.I consider myself a pretty good tank, I get complimented alot when I am in groups. But I will be the first one to admit that I am no expert. I played a pally for 70 levels in EQ1 and I knew my role then and I am confident I played it well. I am only 47 but leveling fast to join my guild in raids. Raiding is what I want to do. But, I have learned in my many years of MMOing, that no matter what, there will always be people who think their class needs to be improved, they want to be the best tank, best heals, best dps out there. Well, you can't be the best at everything. If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.Now I'm getting off my soap box.

Pathin Merrithay · 02-12-2006, 04:45 AM

I couldn't have said it better myself Leawyn.

MeridianR · 02-12-2006, 05:27 AM

Leawyn wrote:
Anariale wrote:
"When Paladins realize that they are not intended to be the go-to raid tank, and settle into the role they ARE intended as (support, back up tank, specialist tanks) then they will be much happier. I'm more than happy to hand off my mitigation buff to a tank if it means bigger better success for my group or raid. Its my role. I play my part to help assist in a win, not to boost my own ego."

No one tank was designed to be MT for every encounter. Paladins have an edge against heavy casting raid mobs while Guardians have an edge when the mobs are heavy melee. Noone, nowhere said that Guardians were intended to be the give-all, end-all raid tank. In fact, SOE has said the exact opposite... that it is more player-based than class-based and certain circumstances will orient themselves slightly better to one class over another.

The problem lies more with the common misconceptions of classes. People want to believe that there is one best way to do something, when its simply not true. Furthermore, its attitudes like this that reinforce player rumor and conjecture as to the abilities of a tank class... reinforcing the false notion of the "only one tank".

Thus, dont even start the crap of "Paladins arent meant to tank". Noone here wants to hear it anyways, and no matter how misconceived your notions may be youre not going to convince people who do it every day that we are wrong.

Message Edited by Anariale on 02-11-200604:42 PM
I *NEVER* said Paladins weren't meant to tank. I said we were meant to tank is certain situations (aka "Specialist tank&quot. I also agree Guards are not the "end all, be all raid tank". In most cases they are the obvious choice, especially when facing a mob for the first time of which you have little to no knowledge. Find out what it does, then rearrange accordingly. But they should never be considered the ONLY choice.Where did you see this? I would love to have known before I rolled a Paladin that I was going to be a "Specialist tank", and not able to tank anything in the game like a Warrior. The only thing that has ever been said to that effect is by the player community themselves. Fact of the matter now, is that there isn't a reason for a Paladin in any group on a raid....sure we can add mitigation (which I never quite understood since well, why would we give our mitigation away when we are supposed to be tanks....we should have a self buff), and resists in the MT group. Or we can add a little dps, but there is no clearly defined role that we have. Ok so someone is going to say, but we have amends and that is uber!! ...but lets look at all the above points:-- Mitigation Buff - Shadowknights do the same thing, and they buff HP as well (Stamina buff)...plus add more dps, and some decent debuffs - Winner SK-- Resists - With Master 1 Crusade we give about 150ish resists....ok buy a potion for the specifc resists you need and get 600, or buy a +47 Wis/Int potion ... - Winner Potion-- Amends - We can xfer some of a high DPS hate to us, so they don't pull aggro....ok, form a dps group (or 2) place a Troubador in those groups and watch all 5 dps burn like crazy - Winner TroubLastly people will come up with "We are arcane tanks" - ummm ok like I said before if you count us being able to have some pretty nice Divine / Magic resists (especially in a MT group with a Templar) then I guess I can buy that argument....but any mobs who have say a Divine/Magic DD or AE also hit for crazy Physical Damage as well.....and we fall far behind a Warrior in Phyiscal Mitigation because of there self buff, and also because of there ancient teaching. Now with AA's they will have even more, which should bode well for us tanking anything....I consider myself a pretty decent Paladin...I am geared pretty decent (I believe), have a good knowledge of our skills, and understand the game fairly well.....The fact of the matter is though, that there is no real need for a Paladin MT in a raid setting at the moment. Let's face facts, we are a Tank, not a healer....not dps, not a buff class. While we may be able to do those things, we are not specialized in them.... If we are supposed to be a Tank, then we need the tools to be a tank. I am fine with not getting the same Physical Mitigation buffs as a Warrior, BUT if our role is supposed to be that of an Arcane Tank, then something needs to be done to distinguish us in that regards. Give us a temporary +300 Resist Buff....let us absorb x amount of casting mobs incoming attacks....something!!What I'm tired of hearing is Paladins wanting to tank EVERYTHING. Well, I'm sorry, but we're not meant to tank EVERYTHING. We are designed to better withstand certain spells and tank in certain circumstances (I'm not nearly high enough level to pretend I know what those are). But I'm tired of other Pallies whining because they don't have mitigation or hps like a Guard. Well... you want hps and mit like a guard, play a guard. You want to be something special, more than just a meat sheild, then continue to play your Pally.Get to L60 start raiding T6 instances, and then tell me which epics we are better suited to tank then a Guardian. Some people might think The Black Queen because of Magic Resists....fine and dandy til she hits you with her Piercing attack 2 rounds in a row. I am fine with the HP position because with potions we can get right around them, but mitigation is king still.I consider myself a pretty good tank, I get complimented alot when I am in groups. But I will be the first one to admit that I am no expert. I played a pally for 70 levels in EQ1 and I knew my role then and I am confident I played it well. I am only 47 but leveling fast to join my guild in raids. Raiding is what I want to do. But, I have learned in my many years of MMOing, that no matter what, there will always be people who think their class needs to be improved, they want to be the best tank, best heals, best dps out there. Well, you can't be the best at everything. If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.See my above comments, since I have to get back to work and don't have time to respond to this part Now I'm getting off my soap box.

Summary:I signed up to be a tank, and while I understand that we can't be a copy of a Warrior tank...we still need some type of advantage over a Warrior in tanking. As I stated above, there are ways to do that, without giving us the same Physical Mitigation (by giving us the same types of skills but arcane based).When you get to L60 and start raiding, you will fast find out that unless you consider tanking yard trash to be fullfilling, that I was indeed correct SMILEY

-- and dont' get my started on aggro control, because I am hoping with LU20 fixing Sigil that we can at least get some help with that.^^ re-reading this it seems I might have came off pretty harsh....if I did sound that way I am sorry.. I didn't mean for it to come out that way (as most people here can attest, I am a pretty nice guy)

Leawyn · 02-12-2006, 05:50 AM

I stand by my final statement:If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.You chose to play a hybrid. Hybrids are a combination of two singularly focused beings, making us duo-focused. I'm sorry, but if you picked a pally to be a mitigating, hp wh*re of a tank machine, you made the wrong choice. If you chose a pally to be diverse, to be able to do something OTHER thank JUST tank, then you made the right choice.And yes, actually, I do find being a specialized tank to be rather fulfilling. In EQ1 I never tanked a named except when we went back and killed everything in Luclin after beating Quarm. And I was more than content in my role as a back up tank, off tank, and oh-sh*t tank. When I am able to raid, I will find satisfaction in being able to keep my group alive, being able to taunt an add off a healer that might have resulted in a wipe, in being able to lead a raid thru trash mobs, so that our better-suited-to-the-encounter tank can take over and kill a named.If you look up Paladin in the dictionary, the definition is:

pal·a·dinn.
A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.
A strong supporter or defender of a cause: “the paladin of plain speaking” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).
Any of the 12 peers of Charlemagne's court.
*copied and pasted from dictionary.com*

Paladins are a paragon of chivalry. That means we take from ourselves to bestow onto others, as in our Armament line to bestow mitigation. We also are a hero, with lay of hands and other heals to assist in that regard. We are also a defender, a tank, able to take the blows for our fellow adventurers so that we may advance farther. I'm sorry if you think that the idea of being "second best" was granted to Paladins from "the player base" you are wrong. It is not "second best" if you understand the meaning of a Paladin. It doesn't mean you can tank a dragon. It means you are there, always working for the right, doing what it takes to overcome. And sometimes, that means bowing out so that someone better suited can take over. If your ego is too much for that, consider another class.

Iustus · 02-12-2006, 05:52 AM

I agree with Phov, the previous poster.

I signed up to be a tank. That was the whole promise of EQ2, back when it was a gleam in the developers eyes, that all fighters would be able to tank.

Being able to tank in groups but not in raids does not do it for me.

How would a shaman feel if they were told they could not heal or debuff on raids, but had to just melee attack? How would a guardian feel if they were told their job was to debuff the mob with hex dolls and to make sure they got a full set of the debuffs dolls?

Doing one of these things on one encounter is fine, but being told this is your job night after night is not going to wash.

If I cannot be a raid tank as a paladin, then I am not sure I want to keep playing.

Thats the bottom line for me, personally. I do not want to play a guardian. I want to play a paladin and raid tank, without severly crippling my guild by doing so.

I raid tank now, but I suspect that it is to the guilds detriment. While we have beat the godking, we have been unable to beat the black queen, and ped of sky is not even close. It is beyond frustrating to think that we are losing not because we have a poor strat, or because we execute poorly, but because I am tanking as a paladin.

I thought the whole point was no one class was essential to raid? It sure does not seem like that is turning out to be true if you want to kill the hardest mobs.

I am very discouraged right now.

-I

Iustus · 02-12-2006, 06:06 AM

There is no such thing as a hybrid in this game, you are stuck in EQ1 terms.

According to the original idea of EQ2, when it was concieved, all fighters would be able to tank.

All priests would be able to heal

All scouts and mages would do dps.

That was the concept.

There is no such thing as a hybrid in this game.

----------------------------------------------------

Now, to those who want more specific issues, my problem is the scaling of abilites from group to raid. From others to self.

A heal for 1000 heals the same amount for a 1x mob that hits for 700 than it does for a 4x mob that hits for 7000. Wards are the same.

A mitigation self buff scales with how hard the mob hits. It reduces that damage, a lot more of a raid mob. (This is both physical mitigation, or crushing/slashing/piercing mitigation increases).

Self buffs help you tank better, targeted buffs and heals help anyone tank better.

Guardians get sell buffs which only they can use, which help them to tank better. Paladins get targetable heals and wards which work just as well on a guardian as they do on the paladin himself.

I found out recently that every fighter except crusaders get a +parry or +deflection with their defensive stance, only crusaders only get +defense (and its the same amount, not more for paladins).

Crusaders get less hp per sta.

At every turn, crusaders get less, and the whole justification is that, well, you get heals??!? I dont buy it. Heals dont work for raid mobs, all that other stuff does.

Some way needs to be found to make guardians viable without gimping every other fighter so they cannot tank.

-I

Pathin Merrithay · 02-12-2006, 06:09 AM

MeridianR wrote:
*SNIP* This is going to get long, so I pulled out most of Leawyn's post*
I *NEVER* said Paladins weren't meant to tank. I said we were meant to tank is certain situations (aka "Specialist tank&quot. I also agree Guards are not the "end all, be all raid tank". In most cases they are the obvious choice, especially when facing a mob for the first time of which you have little to no knowledge. Find out what it does, then rearrange accordingly. But they should never be considered the ONLY choice.Where did you see this? I would love to have known before I rolled a Paladin that I was going to be a "Specialist tank", and not able to tank anything in the game like a Warrior. The only thing that has ever been said to that effect is by the player community themselves. Fact of the matter now, is that there isn't a reason for a Paladin in any group on a raid....sure we can add mitigation (which I never quite understood since well, why would we give our mitigation away when we are supposed to be tanks....we should have a self buff), and resists in the MT group. Or we can add a little dps, but there is no clearly defined role that we have. Ok so someone is going to say, but we have amends and that is uber!! ...but lets look at all the above points:
Every tank class is a specialist tank. We're a healer/agro control specialist. Monks are single target specialist. Guardians are raid tanking specialists. Every tank, played properly, an fill every role. Some tanks just do a slightly better job then others. This, in NO uncertain terms, makes them inferior, it just means they're different.-- Mitigation Buff - Shadowknights do the same thing, and they buff HP as well (Stamina buff)...plus add more dps, and some decent debuffs - Winner SK
Not even close here. Resolute pledge being a wash for avoidance, and Pledge being equal, Paladins bring something HUGE to the table no SK can ever match. Wards and Heals. In the MT group, a paladin should be able to toss out 800 HP single target heals, a similar ward, an even higher group heal...-- Resists - With Master 1 Crusade we give about 150ish resists....ok buy a potion for the specifc resists you need and get 600, or buy a +47 Wis/Int potion ... - Winner Potion
You can buy the potion plus have Crusade and get the effects of both. Add onto this, Crusade is also buffing the wisom of -every- other member of the MT group, so with Master 1 cruade, you've in fact helped out everyone in the very key MT group with resists. Usually half of the MT group are healers anyway, so... Further bonus.
-- Amends - We can xfer some of a high DPS hate to us, so they don't pull aggro....ok, form a dps group (or 2) place a Troubador in those groups and watch all 5 dps burn like crazy - Winner Troub
I will give you this one... But Amends shouldn't even be an issue most of the time.
Lastly people will come up with "We are arcane tanks" - ummm ok like I said before if you count us being able to have some pretty nice Divine / Magic resists (especially in a MT group with a Templar) then I guess I can buy that argument....but any mobs who have say a Divine/Magic DD or AE also hit for crazy Physical Damage as well.....and we fall far behind a Warrior in Phyiscal Mitigation because of there self buff, and also because of there ancient teaching. Now with AA's they will have even more, which should bode well for us tanking anything....
They've always had more. No, I don't really see us as specialist tanks against divine mobs, I just see us as viable tanks that are slightly less suited to go up against high end raid mobs... BUT ARE NO LESS CAPABLE OF DOING SO. 10 more levels means that, yes, that gap will probbaly increase a little bit. But, our capability to heal/ward/etc etc will outpac those of other tanks. We're all getting better in different ways, playing to our strengths.I consider myself a pretty decent Paladin...I am geared pretty decent (I believe), have a good knowledge of our skills, and understand the game fairly well.....The fact of the matter is though, that there is no real need for a Paladin MT in a raid setting at the moment. Let's face facts, we are a Tank, not a healer....not dps, not a buff class. While we may be able to do those things, we are not specialized in them.... If we are supposed to be a Tank, then we need the tools to be a tank. I am fine with not getting the same Physical Mitigation buffs as a Warrior, BUT if our role is supposed to be that of an Arcane Tank, then something needs to be done to distinguish us in that regards. Give us a temporary +300 Resist Buff....let us absorb x amount of casting mobs incoming attacks....something!!
Peple have gotten so caught up in this one buff that Guardians get, they've missed ALL the other abilities that we can choose. They -have- given us exactly that. Our 50% damage absorb ability effects incoming damage -sources- which I read as physical and spell damage. One of our spell lines is a -reflect- ability. The AA's provide all the tools necessary, but I think that here, Meridian, you're falling trap to the same though process so many others have. That the AA line is meant to make us just as good end game raid mobs as Guardians in every respect. If that happens though, what role is the Guardian left?What I'm tired of hearing is Paladins wanting to tank EVERYTHING. Well, I'm sorry, but we're not meant to tank EVERYTHING. We are designed to better withstand certain spells and tank in certain circumstances (I'm not nearly high enough level to pretend I know what those are). But I'm tired of other Pallies whining because they don't have mitigation or hps like a Guard. Well... you want hps and mit like a guard, play a guard. You want to be something special, more than just a meat sheild, then continue to play your Pally.Get to L60 start raiding T6 instances, and then tell me which epics we are better suited to tank then a Guardian. Some people might think The Black Queen because of Magic Resists....fine and dandy til she hits you with her Piercing attack 2 rounds in a row. I am fine with the HP position because with potions we can get right around them, but mitigation is king still.
Covering this part for Leawyn. There is no mob that a Pally can't tank. No mob an SK can't tak even. But some will be slightly better then others. That's the point in class diversity. I think we are much better general tanks then Guardians, and I don't begrudge them being slightly better raid tanks because of that. Being slightly better doesn't mean that you can't swap out if necessar, or that a Paladin is incapable of doing the job. I've seen crusaders tank through most everything a Guardian can... And sometimes to even better effect. I consider myself a pretty good tank, I get complimented alot when I am in groups. But I will be the first one to admit that I am no expert. I played a pally for 70 levels in EQ1 and I knew my role then and I am confident I played it well. I am only 47 but leveling fast to join my guild in raids. Raiding is what I want to do. But, I have learned in my many years of MMOing, that no matter what, there will always be people who think their class needs to be improved, they want to be the best tank, best heals, best dps out there. Well, you can't be the best at everything. If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.See my above comments, since I have to get back to work and don't have time to respond to this part Now I'm getting off my soap box.
Hopefully my points will be more valid, being both 60 and in a high end raid guild.
Summary:I signed up to be a tank, and while I understand that we can't be a copy of a Warrior tank...we still need some type of advantage over a Warrior in tanking. As I stated above, there are ways to do that, without giving us the same Physical Mitigation (by giving us the same types of skills but arcane based).When you get to L60 and start raiding, you will fast find out that unless you consider tanking yard trash to be fullfilling, that I was indeed correct -- and dont' get my started on aggro control, because I am hoping with LU20 fixing Sigil that we can at least get some help with that.^^ re-reading this it seems I might have came off pretty harsh....if I did sound that way I am sorry.. I didn't mean for it to come out that way (as most people here can attest, I am a pretty nice guy)
Not harsh, and I completely respect your view Phov. In my opinion, You, Iustus, Uzihel, -jb and a few others here are probably the most knowledgeable about the paladin class that I've ever seen... But I think what you're asking for is already there. The AA's -have- given us extra abilities to tank that can make up for physical mitigation... But they are not meant to be used to have us replace a Guardian in the one area they really excel.

Pathin Merrithay · 02-12-2006, 06:13 AM

Iustus wrote:
I agree with Phov, the previous poster.
I signed up to be a tank. That was the whole promise of EQ2, back when it was a gleam in the developers eyes, that all fighters would be able to tank.
Being able to tank in groups but not in raids does not do it for me.
How would a shaman feel if they were told they could not heal or debuff on raids, but had to just melee attack? How would a guardian feel if they were told their job was to debuff the mob with hex dolls and to make sure they got a full set of the debuffs dolls?
Doing one of these things on one encounter is fine, but being told this is your job night after night is not going to wash.
If I cannot be a raid tank as a paladin, then I am not sure I want to keep playing.
Thats the bottom line for me, personally. I do not want to play a guardian. I want to play a paladin and raid tank, without severly crippling my guild by doing so.
I raid tank now, but I suspect that it is to the guilds detriment. While we have beat the godking, we have been unable to beat the black queen, and ped of sky is not even close. It is beyond frustrating to think that we are losing not because we have a poor strat, or because we execute poorly, but because I am tanking as a paladin.
I thought the whole point was no one class was essential to raid? It sure does not seem like that is turning out to be true if you want to kill the hardest mobs.
I am very discouraged right now.
-I

In a blue mood today

Nobody here, I think, is arguing that a palsdin cannot tank end game mobs. That's simply not the case. And no, no one class is essential on a raid, but from what I also remember of chat conversations Iustus, you stated that you were missing several classes in your guild that I would consider key in effective, high end raiding situations. Sometimes, to kill a mob, you have to be nearly perfect. NPU proved that recently taking down the Djinn Master. No class is -essential- but when you're missing multiple key ones, it isn't making things easier. The AA's have given us awesome tools... It's just up to us to use them and not argue about who's grass is greener. An extra 340 mit (If we were to get that buff instead of Guards) still doesn't instantly propel us into the top teir, always there, tank of choice for raiding.

MeridianR · 02-12-2006, 10:29 AM

The funny thing is, I believe NPU doesn't even have a Paladin anymore SMILEY

- So we are one of those un-needed classes...lol(just checked they don't have a Paladin - and they just beat Djinn Master again)Oh and sorry about earlier, I was at work and didn't want to be there SMILEY

Cu · 02-12-2006, 04:03 PM

They don't have a pally and they're not looking for one either. Quite honestly, why would they want one? I'm glad people here still defend the class and argue we're not completely useless (we aren't), that's true pally spirit SMILEY

Though doesn't change the fact that for high end encounters pallies are semi-useless and AAs aren't gonna make it better, they're gonna make it worse.

It's not the end of the world, of course, and sure you can still have a lot of fun with pallies but I'm seeing this trend with A LOT of high end raid pallies either quitting or rolling an alt and high end guilds not needing any pallies. I think that's pretty alarming and discouraging.

SniperKitty · 02-12-2006, 08:14 PM

I chose Fighter on the Isle of Refuge because I wanted to be a tank. I became a Crusader and then a Paladin because that style of play intrigued me the most. I wanted to stand fast against any foe set before me through strength at arms and the faith I placed in myself, my allies, and the divine. I wanted to be a zealous leader. Fanatical almost in my determination to destroy my foes. Implacable in my wrath.At no point during the class quests did the trainer tell me I would not be able to tank certain things. From the beginning, I was always a fighter first and foremost. I was a tank. Every fighter, regardless of class or sub-class must be able to tank 100% of the content in game. Otherwise if there is one fighter that can tank all the content, they become the default tank for everything and we end up devolving back into the bullcrap from EQ1 with the warrior being the only tank for raiding.The archetype system promised equality, or at least interchangeability. The MT group set up would be Fighter, Cleric, Shaman, Druid, Scout/Mage. Or if the raid was easy enough, replace one of the three priests with either a scout or mage, depending on what you already have. The ideal group setup would be Fighter, Priest, Scout/Mage x 4. Regardless of the class or sub-class, that would be the ideal setup for either the mt group or your average xp group. That's what was promised to us by the devs before EQ2 released and I'm going to hold them to that promise.I want all content to be able to be tanked or healed or dps'd by any group setup using the above guidelines. There absolutely cannot be a single class that is favored above all others for the majority of the content. There absolutely cannot be a single class that is a one trick pony. All classes must have diversity and a role in all tiers of content.I am a fighter. I am a crusader. I am a paladin. Above all, I am a tank and I will spit in the face of anyone that says I cannot be the main tank in a raid and I will fight for the improvements needed to make all tanks equally capable on all raids. If guardians become the default raid tank, then there's no reason to include any other type of fighter in the game. Just give guardians some of the key abilities from the other fighters and get rid of the rest.The reason for the archetype system was to create diversity with interchangeablility. Any paladin who claims they're not meant to raid tank should just keep their fingers tied and stop posting that horrible opinion. Paladins are a member of the fighter archetype and thus are meant to be tanks... regardless of the content.

Leawyn · 02-12-2006, 10:03 PM

SniperKitty wrote:The reason for the archetype system was to create diversity with interchangeablility. Any paladin who claims they're not meant to raid tank should just keep their fingers tied and stop posting that horrible opinion. Paladins are a member of the fighter archetype and thus are meant to be tanks... regardless of the content.

I don't think anyone is saying that Paladins are not meant to raid tank. Pallies are perfectly capable of being the MT on anything. But also understand that they may not be the ideal candidate for every job. Just as guardians are not the ideal candidate for every job. Just like SK's, bruisers, monks, and zerkers are not as well. Each of those classes can tank raid mobs (and I've seen them do it). *BUT* if you want to match the HP and Mitigation of a guardian/zerker, AND have your specialized abilities to heal and ward yourself, you are asking to put guardians out of business. They deserve to have something better than we do, because we DO have the ability to heal ourselves and others. I don't know why this concept seems difficult to grasp for some people.

SniperKitty · 02-12-2006, 10:31 PM

No, I perfectly understand guardians need to be better at something. I just don't agree that it should be raid tanking. If there's one fighter that's the best at raid tanking, they become the de facto, the only raid tank. However the guardians specialty, group defense, is counter to the tanks job of maintaining aggro. Which is why I would make a radical change that would throw everyone in game or any mmo for a loop.Get rid of taunts.I believe that taunts are the single most overpowering ability in any game and force the designers to create everything with that in mind. If I had the chance to design the combat aspect of a mmo, I would remove taunts, give everyone the ability to achieve the same armor class (completely avoidance based), and a damage reduction aspect (what mitigation is). Each class would have similar dps capability as well. The differences would be their specialty, their style of attacks (animations/effects/etc), appearance, and hit points.With everyone having the same capability of AC/DR/DPS, the only balancing factor becomes the specialty aspect which makes it much easier to balance. Priests specialty would be healing. Paladins would be divine damage/healing. Guardians would be defensive, making the entire group harder to kill. Shadowknights would be unholy and so on and so forth. Combat would be a heckuva lot more interesting too with larger groups of foes, since even a mage would be able to stand toe-to-toe with most creatures.Instead of giving an epic creature devestatingly high damage attacks... give them attack routines that target multiple people in a group/raid and inflict various status effects. It would make the game much more interesting. At least in my opinion. I'd have much more fun playing a game like that instead of one where a single person taunts everything and everyone else blasts the same target and them moves on to the next.

RBent72 · 02-12-2006, 11:43 PM

Wow Sniperkitty, you "spit in the face of anyone that says I cannot be the main tank in a raid...."? Take it easy, bud, it's not that big of a deal. :smileyhappy:

Listen, I raid about 2-3 times a week, usually multiple raids each time. While a Pally certainly CAN be the MT, I have yet to see a specific T5 or T6 raid where that is the best option. I know, I know, SOE said that different tanks would be needed for certain raids, but it just hasn't worked out that way as far as I can see. SOE says lots of things that don't pan out. My divine resist is off the charts, but what raid mob uses only divine attacks? Our mitigation buff is the best in the game (as far as I know), and our group heal is pretty nice too. I spend much of my raid time in the main group largely because of these two abilities, which means I certainly contribute to the raid, and that's good isn't it? I mean, if you MT, and a guardian is in the raid, what is he gonna do, DPS? :smileywink:

The majority of my playing time is spent outside of raids, where I am the MT almost all of the time. So you ARE a tank. Pallys are simply not the best tank for raids at this time. I have a feeling that AA that ends with an Immunity to Fear might come in handy on some future T7 raid, but we'll have to see. I appreciate how you would like to change things, but SOE seems pretty set on the formula they have been using, and I don't expect them to make the fundamental changes you discussed. Sorry you are so unhappy, but try to look at all the positive things you have going for your character. They're there, you just have to look hard for them sometimes.

Chemos Andon

60 Paladin/Weaponsmith

Siege Guild

Najena Server

SniperKitty · 02-12-2006, 11:48 PM

I want to be the MT. I started a guild for that reason and am in the process of making friends on my server and leading open raids on T4/5 content as I level through the 40's. I shouldn't be forced to play a guardian just to be a raid tank. That's not what SOE promised and I'm going to hold them to that promise.

Anariale · 02-13-2006, 03:03 AM

I mean, if you MT, and a guardian is in the raid, what is he gonna do, DPS?Um, offtank? Guard the MT to keep them up. Intercede some heavy hits to spread out the massive damage a bit?Pull stragglers back to the MT... Guardians have the best ST taunts, allows them to fill that role well.There are a ton of roles for a Guardian, just like there are a ton of roles for a Paladin. Dont close your mind to options and use that cop-out.

SniperKitty · 02-13-2006, 03:36 AM

Anariale wrote:I mean, if you MT, and a guardian is in the raid, what is he gonna do, DPS?Um, offtank? Guard the MT to keep them up. Intercede some heavy hits to spread out the massive damage a bit?Pull stragglers back to the MT... Guardians have the best ST taunts, allows them to fill that role well. There are a ton of roles for a Guardian, just like there are a ton of roles for a Paladin. Dont close your mind to options and use that cop-out.
Heh, try teaching that to the guardians. They are staid in their stubborn minded determination that they are to be the best and only raid tank, regardless of what SOE does or any of the other players want. I personally think there are far too many fighters in the game period. About 75% of them need to be culled. I'm tired of joining a pick up raid early on and then seeing seven or eight other fighters invited as well. Slow raid day... *sighs* Replace all of 'em with dps and it'd cut the time to clear by half.And if you ask guardians... they hate intercede and any other abilities that take damage from other people. Their only defense against it is that it makes the healer work harder. Bullcrap. I play a healer and I love it when another tank can spread out the hits on multiple people instead of just one person. It's not like they're taking constant damage by doing that. Which means in between main heals on the main tank, I can toss out a regen or a group heal and fix 'em right up before they can intercede again.Group heals for my warden are by far the most efficient heal I have. While I prefer to run xp groups with only one tank, I can understand the value of having a second tank in the MT group if you don't need all three healers and/or the buffer. I haven't looked, but if they allowed intercede and other similar abilities to work raid wide, it'd be awesome. I'd love to have multiple tanks eating the damage across the entire raid, rather than one tank eating it all.

Anariale · 02-13-2006, 03:45 AM

Guardians are "in power" because the rumor mill keeps them there. Its in their best interests to keep it that way, so they keep saying "dont use X ability" or argue that their only role is to tank, when its simply not true. Even so, that doesnt matter, because Perception > Reality in MMO's.All the more reason not to persist these rumors on the Paladin boards, where we KNOW better.

Message Edited by Anariale on 02-12-200605:46 PM

Emo · 02-13-2006, 04:01 AM

Intercede [Master I]

Target: Raid or Group Friend

every fighter gets it at lvl 34...

as for us not capable tanking raid mobs...

I duo tanked sunchild before he was dimmed down with the removal of imunities, now without the immunities I can tank him no problem...

I tanked about every mob in PP:r, Court of Al afaz, I tanked several contested mobs...I'm probably forgetting certain stuff

My point is that Paladins can tank almost as well as Guardians, it's a little bit of shuffling around in groups, but believe it or not..some encounters go a bit smoother with a paladin, some not...

tanking is not the issue here tho...some people seem to assume that the Achievements are suddenly gonna give us abilities that are undreamed of...they do not...they should not, they are achievements, we achieved something..they give us a nifty ability or something extra, they shouldn't give us an unfair advantage against other things...don't look at guardians all the time...have we come to the point that we are the envious little brother who wants everything?

If you want to know guardians are envious of us...we have greater utility, with the achievements they are getting..they are getting shoved into their little corner yet again...tank...thats all they are good for, while we as crusader/paladin, we can heal, we can dps when we are attacking group mobs, we have greater attacks against undead, we have good group buffs and with those achievements, our strong points are getting a little bit improved, we're getting greater group utility with buffs, we are getting some nifty new attacks that'll improve our dps, solo mobs as well as group mobs, and yes...our defensive capabilities are getting improved too we are getting resistances against most stuns...thats no small feature...

try looking at the whole picture instead of looking at only ONE aspect of our class, we can tank, we sure can, but we are so much more too, don't stare yourself blind on what other classes are getting and be glad with what we got

Anariale · 02-13-2006, 04:28 AM

we are getting resistances against most stuns.I would be shocked to see any Paladins putting 24 points into the Agility / Spear / Horseback lineAnd it reads "knockdowns" not stuns... and only works while on horseback

Message Edited by Anariale on 02-12-200606:44 PM

Pathin Merrithay · 02-13-2006, 05:03 AM

SniperKitty wrote:
Anariale wrote:I mean, if you MT, and a guardian is in the raid, what is he gonna do, DPS?Um, offtank? Guard the MT to keep them up. Intercede some heavy hits to spread out the massive damage a bit?Pull stragglers back to the MT... Guardians have the best ST taunts, allows them to fill that role well. There are a ton of roles for a Guardian, just like there are a ton of roles for a Paladin. Dont close your mind to options and use that cop-out.
Heh, try teaching that to the guardians. They are staid in their stubborn minded determination that they are to be the best and only raid tank, regardless of what SOE does or any of the other players want. I personally think there are far too many fighters in the game period. About 75% of them need to be culled. I'm tired of joining a pick up raid early on and then seeing seven or eight other fighters invited as well. Slow raid day... *sighs* Replace all of 'em with dps and it'd cut the time to clear by half.And if you ask guardians... they hate intercede and any other abilities that take damage from other people. Their only defense against it is that it makes the healer work harder. Bullcrap. I play a healer and I love it when another tank can spread out the hits on multiple people instead of just one person. It's not like they're taking constant damage by doing that. Which means in between main heals on the main tank, I can toss out a regen or a group heal and fix 'em right up before they can intercede again.Group heals for my warden are by far the most efficient heal I have. While I prefer to run xp groups with only one tank, I can understand the value of having a second tank in the MT group if you don't need all three healers and/or the buffer. I haven't looked, but if they allowed intercede and other similar abilities to work raid wide, it'd be awesome. I'd love to have multiple tanks eating the damage across the entire raid, rather than one tank eating it all.

That's why you have off tanks and off-tank groups. Something else Paladins can also do. Intercede is usually a poor idea on raids. It works once, and can drop you like a stone if you're not fully buffed... You'll likely experience that, as you get higher in raiding, that the MT is there for a reason... To take the hits.

But all of this aside, the last dozen or so posts all I've seen are posts about how SoE is horrible, are slapping us in the face, etc etc because Paladins can't raid MT... I don't know how I could have been more clear in previous posts, so, here, once again...

WE CAN

NOBODY has said that we can't. People are reading too much into these posts (except apparently, mine) because the -only- thing that's been stated is that Guardians can MT raids -better-. That doesn't make us a completely invalid option. That doesn't make us horrible an inferior. It just means, in one aspect of the game, they do something better. And this is the concept that I myself am having trouble wrapping my mind around, so I'm going to try phrasing it another way...

Paladins are a better standard tank choice then a guardian. So, you want to shift this so Paladins also are their equal at Raid tanking. If that is the case, what exactly are you willing to give up to accomplish this?

I'm throwing this challenge out to anyone. If you want to make Paladins as good at tanking raids as Guardians, show us what we should get to close that gap... And then show me what you are willing to sacrifice in our present abilities to receive that. Then bear in mind, that not only must it be ok with the general Paladin community, but it also must not make Guardians an inviable option. (ie: If we tank standard groups better then Guardians, and raid mobs just as well, then what role are you going to give them that they'd be happy with?)

Anyone up for it?

Anariale · 02-13-2006, 05:30 AM

"thing that's been stated is that Guardians can MT raids -better-"And once again, youre wrong. They cant do it better, they do it differently. Paladins can be just as effective of a MT as a Guardian can, end of story.

Pathin Merrithay · 02-13-2006, 05:40 AM

Anariale wrote:"thing that's been stated is that Guardians can MT raids -better-"And once again, youre wrong. They cant do it better, they do it differently. Paladins can be just as effective of a MT as a Guardian can, end of story.

No, actually, I'm not. A Paladin -can- MT raids well. A Guardian -can- do it better. I assure you, I am not inexperienced in this and can back up my resume/first-hand knowledge if you wish.

I also notice... No response to my challenge?

SniperKitty · 02-13-2006, 05:52 AM

Pathin Merrithay wrote:
No, actually, I'm not. A Paladin -can- MT raids well. A Guardian -can- do it better. I assure you, I am not inexperienced in this and can back up my resume/first-hand knowledge if you wish. I also notice... No response to my challenge?
Well let's see. Guardians have an advantage for tanking raid mobs because of their defensive buffs, hp buffs, and tower shield. I don't really care about the tower shield, it's not the big of a factor anyway compared to our kite shields. It would be nice to have some hp buffs like paladin's used to. The brell's line comes to mind. That would close the gap some. Maybe add a small defensive buff to it as well. Hell, make it targetable on only one person so if we aren't the main tank, we can use it on whomever is. Give guardians something similar.As for what else to give the guardian... well, aside from /yell and running, they really don't have much in the way of an escape method. Paladins don't have much of one either though. How about a 15 minute recast AE knockdown/stun for six seconds. Affects heroics and solos only and automatically breaks the encounter. That way it's not used for normal xp'ing. It's only an escape power. Guardians could also use their up front dps increased a little bit. Currently, they match a bruiser for dps while tanking every thirty seconds of a fight. Increase that to maybe every 15 seconds for a smoother comparison.The other option I would suggest is revamping them to be a reactive tank utilizing parries, ripostes, trips, and shield bashing. Or you could give them more shield only abilities that up their dps slightly.

MeridianR · 02-13-2006, 09:11 AM

Tower Shield becomes a non issue is KoS - Paladins can use Tower Shields...just an fyiGranted we can tank raids (hell I just ended up tanking a bunch of the final 3 named in Poets)....I guess what I really want to get at is a true diversity then.Guardians > Paladins for Phyiscal Mitigation named epics.Paladins > Guardians for Arcane named epics.While it seemed that this was going to be the case, with the right classes, gear and potions it is not. Guardians are head and shoulders above us for Physical, but we are not heads and shoulders above for arcane.Make it so that we are the preferred Arcane tanks (with skills that help that) and I am happy SMILEY

Iustus · 02-13-2006, 10:07 AM

Leawyn wrote:
SniperKitty wrote:The reason for the archetype system was to create diversity with interchangeablility. Any paladin who claims they're not meant to raid tank should just keep their fingers tied and stop posting that horrible opinion. Paladins are a member of the fighter archetype and thus are meant to be tanks... regardless of the content.
I don't think anyone is saying that Paladins are not meant to raid tank. Pallies are perfectly capable of being the MT on anything. But also understand that they may not be the ideal candidate for every job. Just as guardians are not the ideal candidate for every job. Just like SK's, bruisers, monks, and zerkers are not as well. Each of those classes can tank raid mobs (and I've seen them do it). *BUT* if you want to match the HP and Mitigation of a guardian/zerker, AND have your specialized abilities to heal and ward yourself, you are asking to put guardians out of business. They deserve to have something better than we do, because we DO have the ability to heal ourselves and others. I don't know why this concept seems difficult to grasp for some people.

I added the red. This is just not the case. I wish it was.

The way the game balance stacks, in reality, not how it should be, is that some mobs cannot be realistically tanked with a paladin (or a SK for that matter, or a brawler).

Guardians get a whole slew of abilites that are ideal for raid tanking. Their abilites (1) scale with the power of the mob, so that their tanking abilites scale to those 4x mobs that hit for 5k-10k points plus, and (2) are self only, they cannot be used on other tanks

Paladins get abilites which are both fixed in value, so they do not scale with the difficulty of the mob (a heal heals the same 1k points, whether the mob is hitting you for 500 once every 2 seconds, or 4k 3 times a second.), so paladins fail in both these areas: (1) no scaling with mob difficulty, and (2) you can use this abilities on a guardian, to make him a better tank. So, in as much as they are useful, its more useful to a raid for you to heal the tank, rather than heal yourself tanking.

----------------------

Brainstorming Solutions (some prob not all of the following):

(1) Give crusaders some mitigation (straight up, or crushing/piercing/slashing, or both) self buffs

(2) add +parry to the crusader defensive stance

(3) give crusaders some 30 sec duration tanking buffs: perhaps like the other fighters get, perhaps a total immunity to magic and divine damage for 30 sec, this would be better balanced (at least on some mobs) with the guardian higher mitigation vs all physical, than just having 1850 more resists, which frankly is nearly insignificant even on the worst mobs.

(4) change paladins self-heal to be fast cast, not interruptable, and scale with the power of the mob (perhaps heal for more the more you are hurt) (honestly I think this would be really hard to balance, but for those purists that want to keep paladin balance through heals, something needs to be added that scales with the speed and intensity of the mob hits

(5) add stance which increases mitigation vs physical/crushing/percing/slashing but does not allow us to cast heals or wards while it is up.

(6) throw a non-tanking bone to guardians if one is needed. There has to be a reason to play a guardian if crusaders can tank as well on raids. (I do not know what the reason is though)

-I

Scadie · 02-13-2006, 06:05 PM

I´m raiding 3-4 times a week all the T6 Epics... and my experience ist that Paladins sometimes can tank better than Guardians and sometimes Guardian better than Paladins.. Allmost its Encounter based which class do the job better.. At Dinree in GoAA for example our Raid wiped 3 time till i do the job as MT and at first try it was a succes the same thing at the Great Gardener in CoAA..

I just want that the role Paladins are actually playing will stay in Future.. and Paladin will still rule.. Paladin Rules SMILEY

Guiddian · 02-13-2006, 06:09 PM

i was just trying to say these aa's would have been better suited on a paladin, rather than a templar.

i can just see it now fighting an undead epic.... pallies to the back and heal templars to the front and dps. something is just plain wrong about this

Message Edited by Guiddian on 02-13-200605:13 AM

02-12-2006, 02:42 AM	#61
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	"When Paladins realize that they are not intended to be the go-to raid tank, and settle into the role they ARE intended as (support, back up tank, specialist tanks) then they will be much happier. I'm more than happy to hand off my mitigation buff to a tank if it means bigger better success for my group or raid. Its my role. I play my part to help assist in a win, not to boost my own ego." No one tank was designed to be MT for every encounter. Paladins have an edge against heavy casting raid mobs while Guardians have an edge when the mobs are heavy melee. Noone, nowhere said that Guardians were intended to be the give-all, end-all raid tank. In fact, SOE has said the exact opposite... that it is more player-based than class-based and certain circumstances will orient themselves slightly better to one class over another. The problem lies more with the common misconceptions of classes. People want to believe that there is one best way to do something, when its simply not true. Furthermore, its attitudes like this that reinforce player rumor and conjecture as to the abilities of a tank class... reinforcing the false notion of the "only one tank". Thus, dont even start the crap of "Paladins arent meant to tank". Noone here wants to hear it anyways, and no matter how misconceived your notions may be youre not going to convince people who do it every day that we are wrong. Message Edited by Anariale on 02-11-200604:42 PM __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

02-12-2006, 02:53 AM	#62
Rhianni Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 187	Kahuna5150 wrote: What are AA's? I'm a lvl44 Paladin and was wondering what these are. Are they for lvl50+? Any info would be nice. On Feb 21 (or 22) the next expansion comes out. It allows lvl 20 and up to get additional powers. You get it by doing what we already do (quest, kill, explore) and it is another experiance bar to fill up. We get 50 points (I am assuming 50 levels here) to go towards the powers listed above.

02-12-2006, 02:55 AM	#63
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	Anariale wrote: "When Paladins realize that they are not intended to be the go-to raid tank, and settle into the role they ARE intended as (support, back up tank, specialist tanks) then they will be much happier. I'm more than happy to hand off my mitigation buff to a tank if it means bigger better success for my group or raid. Its my role. I play my part to help assist in a win, not to boost my own ego." No one tank was designed to be MT for every encounter. Paladins have an edge against heavy casting raid mobs while Guardians have an edge when the mobs are heavy melee. Noone, nowhere said that Guardians were intended to be the give-all, end-all raid tank. In fact, SOE has said the exact opposite... that it is more player-based than class-based and certain circumstances will orient themselves slightly better to one class over another. The problem lies more with the common misconceptions of classes. People want to believe that there is one best way to do something, when its simply not true. Furthermore, its attitudes like this that reinforce player rumor and conjecture as to the abilities of a tank class... reinforcing the false notion of the "only one tank". Thus, dont even start the crap of "Paladins arent meant to tank". Noone here wants to hear it anyways, and no matter how misconceived your notions may be youre not going to convince people who do it every day that we are wrong. Message Edited by Anariale on 02-11-200604:42 PM I NEVER said Paladins weren't meant to tank. I said we were meant to tank is certain situations (aka "Specialist tank&quot. I also agree Guards are not the "end all, be all raid tank". In most cases they are the obvious choice, especially when facing a mob for the first time of which you have little to no knowledge. Find out what it does, then rearrange accordingly. But they should never be considered the ONLY choice.What I'm tired of hearing is Paladins wanting to tank EVERYTHING. Well, I'm sorry, but we're not meant to tank EVERYTHING. We are designed to better withstand certain spells and tank in certain circumstances (I'm not nearly high enough level to pretend I know what those are). But I'm tired of other Pallies whining because they don't have mitigation or hps like a Guard. Well... you want hps and mit like a guard, play a guard. You want to be something special, more than just a meat sheild, then continue to play your Pally.I consider myself a pretty good tank, I get complimented alot when I am in groups. But I will be the first one to admit that I am no expert. I played a pally for 70 levels in EQ1 and I knew my role then and I am confident I played it well. I am only 47 but leveling fast to join my guild in raids. Raiding is what I want to do. But, I have learned in my many years of MMOing, that no matter what, there will always be people who think their class needs to be improved, they want to be the best tank, best heals, best dps out there. Well, you can't be the best at everything. If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.Now I'm getting off my soap box. __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

02-12-2006, 05:27 AM	#65
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	Leawyn wrote: Anariale wrote: "When Paladins realize that they are not intended to be the go-to raid tank, and settle into the role they ARE intended as (support, back up tank, specialist tanks) then they will be much happier. I'm more than happy to hand off my mitigation buff to a tank if it means bigger better success for my group or raid. Its my role. I play my part to help assist in a win, not to boost my own ego." No one tank was designed to be MT for every encounter. Paladins have an edge against heavy casting raid mobs while Guardians have an edge when the mobs are heavy melee. Noone, nowhere said that Guardians were intended to be the give-all, end-all raid tank. In fact, SOE has said the exact opposite... that it is more player-based than class-based and certain circumstances will orient themselves slightly better to one class over another. The problem lies more with the common misconceptions of classes. People want to believe that there is one best way to do something, when its simply not true. Furthermore, its attitudes like this that reinforce player rumor and conjecture as to the abilities of a tank class... reinforcing the false notion of the "only one tank". Thus, dont even start the crap of "Paladins arent meant to tank". Noone here wants to hear it anyways, and no matter how misconceived your notions may be youre not going to convince people who do it every day that we are wrong. Message Edited by Anariale on 02-11-200604:42 PM I NEVER said Paladins weren't meant to tank. I said we were meant to tank is certain situations (aka "Specialist tank&quot. I also agree Guards are not the "end all, be all raid tank". In most cases they are the obvious choice, especially when facing a mob for the first time of which you have little to no knowledge. Find out what it does, then rearrange accordingly. But they should never be considered the ONLY choice.Where did you see this? I would love to have known before I rolled a Paladin that I was going to be a "Specialist tank", and not able to tank anything in the game like a Warrior. The only thing that has ever been said to that effect is by the player community themselves. Fact of the matter now, is that there isn't a reason for a Paladin in any group on a raid....sure we can add mitigation (which I never quite understood since well, why would we give our mitigation away when we are supposed to be tanks....we should have a self buff), and resists in the MT group. Or we can add a little dps, but there is no clearly defined role that we have. Ok so someone is going to say, but we have amends and that is uber!! ...but lets look at all the above points:-- Mitigation Buff - Shadowknights do the same thing, and they buff HP as well (Stamina buff)...plus add more dps, and some decent debuffs - Winner SK-- Resists - With Master 1 Crusade we give about 150ish resists....ok buy a potion for the specifc resists you need and get 600, or buy a +47 Wis/Int potion ... - Winner Potion-- Amends - We can xfer some of a high DPS hate to us, so they don't pull aggro....ok, form a dps group (or 2) place a Troubador in those groups and watch all 5 dps burn like crazy - Winner TroubLastly people will come up with "We are arcane tanks" - ummm ok like I said before if you count us being able to have some pretty nice Divine / Magic resists (especially in a MT group with a Templar) then I guess I can buy that argument....but any mobs who have say a Divine/Magic DD or AE also hit for crazy Physical Damage as well.....and we fall far behind a Warrior in Phyiscal Mitigation because of there self buff, and also because of there ancient teaching. Now with AA's they will have even more, which should bode well for us tanking anything....I consider myself a pretty decent Paladin...I am geared pretty decent (I believe), have a good knowledge of our skills, and understand the game fairly well.....The fact of the matter is though, that there is no real need for a Paladin MT in a raid setting at the moment. Let's face facts, we are a Tank, not a healer....not dps, not a buff class. While we may be able to do those things, we are not specialized in them.... If we are supposed to be a Tank, then we need the tools to be a tank. I am fine with not getting the same Physical Mitigation buffs as a Warrior, BUT if our role is supposed to be that of an Arcane Tank, then something needs to be done to distinguish us in that regards. Give us a temporary +300 Resist Buff....let us absorb x amount of casting mobs incoming attacks....something!!What I'm tired of hearing is Paladins wanting to tank EVERYTHING. Well, I'm sorry, but we're not meant to tank EVERYTHING. We are designed to better withstand certain spells and tank in certain circumstances (I'm not nearly high enough level to pretend I know what those are). But I'm tired of other Pallies whining because they don't have mitigation or hps like a Guard. Well... you want hps and mit like a guard, play a guard. You want to be something special, more than just a meat sheild, then continue to play your Pally.Get to L60 start raiding T6 instances, and then tell me which epics we are better suited to tank then a Guardian. Some people might think The Black Queen because of Magic Resists....fine and dandy til she hits you with her Piercing attack 2 rounds in a row. I am fine with the HP position because with potions we can get right around them, but mitigation is king still.I consider myself a pretty good tank, I get complimented alot when I am in groups. But I will be the first one to admit that I am no expert. I played a pally for 70 levels in EQ1 and I knew my role then and I am confident I played it well. I am only 47 but leveling fast to join my guild in raids. Raiding is what I want to do. But, I have learned in my many years of MMOing, that no matter what, there will always be people who think their class needs to be improved, they want to be the best tank, best heals, best dps out there. Well, you can't be the best at everything. If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.See my above comments, since I have to get back to work and don't have time to respond to this part Now I'm getting off my soap box. Summary:I signed up to be a tank, and while I understand that we can't be a copy of a Warrior tank...we still need some type of advantage over a Warrior in tanking. As I stated above, there are ways to do that, without giving us the same Physical Mitigation (by giving us the same types of skills but arcane based).When you get to L60 and start raiding, you will fast find out that unless you consider tanking yard trash to be fullfilling, that I was indeed correct -- and dont' get my started on aggro control, because I am hoping with LU20 fixing Sigil that we can at least get some help with that.^^ re-reading this it seems I might have came off pretty harsh....if I did sound that way I am sorry.. I didn't mean for it to come out that way (as most people here can attest, I am a pretty nice guy) __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

02-12-2006, 05:50 AM	#66
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	I stand by my final statement:If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.You chose to play a hybrid. Hybrids are a combination of two singularly focused beings, making us duo-focused. I'm sorry, but if you picked a pally to be a mitigating, hp whre of a tank machine, you made the wrong choice. If you chose a pally to be diverse, to be able to do something OTHER thank JUST tank, then you made the right choice.And yes, actually, I do find being a specialized tank to be rather fulfilling. In EQ1 I never tanked a named except when we went back and killed everything in Luclin after beating Quarm. And I was more than content in my role as a back up tank, off tank, and oh-sht tank. When I am able to raid, I will find satisfaction in being able to keep my group alive, being able to taunt an add off a healer that might have resulted in a wipe, in being able to lead a raid thru trash mobs, so that our better-suited-to-the-encounter tank can take over and kill a named.If you look up Paladin in the dictionary, the definition is: pal·a·dinn. A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion. A strong supporter or defender of a cause: “the paladin of plain speaking” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.). Any of the 12 peers of Charlemagne's court. copied and pasted from dictionary.com Paladins are a paragon of chivalry. That means we take from ourselves to bestow onto others, as in our Armament line to bestow mitigation. We also are a hero, with lay of hands and other heals to assist in that regard. We are also a defender, a tank, able to take the blows for our fellow adventurers so that we may advance farther. I'm sorry if you think that the idea of being "second best" was granted to Paladins from "the player base" you are wrong. It is not "second best" if you understand the meaning of a Paladin. It doesn't mean you can tank a dragon. It means you are there, always working for the right, doing what it takes to overcome. And sometimes, that means bowing out so that someone better suited can take over. If your ego is too much for that, consider another class. __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

02-12-2006, 04:45 AM	#64
Pathin Merrithay Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 473	I couldn't have said it better myself Leawyn.

02-12-2006, 05:52 AM	#67
Iustus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 133	I agree with Phov, the previous poster. I signed up to be a tank. That was the whole promise of EQ2, back when it was a gleam in the developers eyes, that all fighters would be able to tank. Being able to tank in groups but not in raids does not do it for me. How would a shaman feel if they were told they could not heal or debuff on raids, but had to just melee attack? How would a guardian feel if they were told their job was to debuff the mob with hex dolls and to make sure they got a full set of the debuffs dolls? Doing one of these things on one encounter is fine, but being told this is your job night after night is not going to wash. If I cannot be a raid tank as a paladin, then I am not sure I want to keep playing. Thats the bottom line for me, personally. I do not want to play a guardian. I want to play a paladin and raid tank, without severly crippling my guild by doing so. I raid tank now, but I suspect that it is to the guilds detriment. While we have beat the godking, we have been unable to beat the black queen, and ped of sky is not even close. It is beyond frustrating to think that we are losing not because we have a poor strat, or because we execute poorly, but because I am tanking as a paladin. I thought the whole point was no one class was essential to raid? It sure does not seem like that is turning out to be true if you want to kill the hardest mobs. I am very discouraged right now. -I

02-12-2006, 06:06 AM	#68
Iustus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 133	There is no such thing as a hybrid in this game, you are stuck in EQ1 terms. According to the original idea of EQ2, when it was concieved, all fighters would be able to tank. All priests would be able to heal All scouts and mages would do dps. That was the concept. There is no such thing as a hybrid in this game. ---------------------------------------------------- Now, to those who want more specific issues, my problem is the scaling of abilites from group to raid. From others to self. A heal for 1000 heals the same amount for a 1x mob that hits for 700 than it does for a 4x mob that hits for 7000. Wards are the same. A mitigation self buff scales with how hard the mob hits. It reduces that damage, a lot more of a raid mob. (This is both physical mitigation, or crushing/slashing/piercing mitigation increases). Self buffs help you tank better, targeted buffs and heals help anyone tank better. Guardians get sell buffs which only they can use, which help them to tank better. Paladins get targetable heals and wards which work just as well on a guardian as they do on the paladin himself. I found out recently that every fighter except crusaders get a +parry or +deflection with their defensive stance, only crusaders only get +defense (and its the same amount, not more for paladins). Crusaders get less hp per sta. At every turn, crusaders get less, and the whole justification is that, well, you get heals??!? I dont buy it. Heals dont work for raid mobs, all that other stuff does. Some way needs to be found to make guardians viable without gimping every other fighter so they cannot tank. -I

02-12-2006, 06:09 AM	#69
Pathin Merrithay Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 473	MeridianR wrote: SNIP This is going to get long, so I pulled out most of Leawyn's post* I NEVER said Paladins weren't meant to tank. I said we were meant to tank is certain situations (aka "Specialist tank&quot. I also agree Guards are not the "end all, be all raid tank". In most cases they are the obvious choice, especially when facing a mob for the first time of which you have little to no knowledge. Find out what it does, then rearrange accordingly. But they should never be considered the ONLY choice.Where did you see this? I would love to have known before I rolled a Paladin that I was going to be a "Specialist tank", and not able to tank anything in the game like a Warrior. The only thing that has ever been said to that effect is by the player community themselves. Fact of the matter now, is that there isn't a reason for a Paladin in any group on a raid....sure we can add mitigation (which I never quite understood since well, why would we give our mitigation away when we are supposed to be tanks....we should have a self buff), and resists in the MT group. Or we can add a little dps, but there is no clearly defined role that we have. Ok so someone is going to say, but we have amends and that is uber!! ...but lets look at all the above points: Every tank class is a specialist tank. We're a healer/agro control specialist. Monks are single target specialist. Guardians are raid tanking specialists. Every tank, played properly, an fill every role. Some tanks just do a slightly better job then others. This, in NO uncertain terms, makes them inferior, it just means they're different.-- Mitigation Buff - Shadowknights do the same thing, and they buff HP as well (Stamina buff)...plus add more dps, and some decent debuffs - Winner SK Not even close here. Resolute pledge being a wash for avoidance, and Pledge being equal, Paladins bring something HUGE to the table no SK can ever match. Wards and Heals. In the MT group, a paladin should be able to toss out 800 HP single target heals, a similar ward, an even higher group heal...-- Resists - With Master 1 Crusade we give about 150ish resists....ok buy a potion for the specifc resists you need and get 600, or buy a +47 Wis/Int potion ... - Winner Potion You can buy the potion plus have Crusade and get the effects of both. Add onto this, Crusade is also buffing the wisom of -every- other member of the MT group, so with Master 1 cruade, you've in fact helped out everyone in the very key MT group with resists. Usually half of the MT group are healers anyway, so... Further bonus. -- Amends - We can xfer some of a high DPS hate to us, so they don't pull aggro....ok, form a dps group (or 2) place a Troubador in those groups and watch all 5 dps burn like crazy - Winner Troub *I will give you this one... But Amends shouldn't even be an issue most of the time.* Lastly people will come up with "We are arcane tanks" - ummm ok like I said before if you count us being able to have some pretty nice Divine / Magic resists (especially in a MT group with a Templar) then I guess I can buy that argument....but any mobs who have say a Divine/Magic DD or AE also hit for crazy Physical Damage as well.....and we fall far behind a Warrior in Phyiscal Mitigation because of there self buff, and also because of there ancient teaching. Now with AA's they will have even more, which should bode well for us tanking anything.... They've always had more. No, I don't really see us as specialist tanks against divine mobs, I just see us as viable tanks that are slightly less suited to go up against high end raid mobs... BUT ARE NO LESS CAPABLE OF DOING SO. 10 more levels means that, yes, that gap will probbaly increase a little bit. But, our capability to heal/ward/etc etc will outpac those of other tanks. We're all getting better in different ways, playing to our strengths.I consider myself a pretty decent Paladin...I am geared pretty decent (I believe), have a good knowledge of our skills, and understand the game fairly well.....The fact of the matter is though, that there is no real need for a Paladin MT in a raid setting at the moment. Let's face facts, we are a Tank, not a healer....not dps, not a buff class. While we may be able to do those things, we are not specialized in them.... If we are supposed to be a Tank, then we need the tools to be a tank. I am fine with not getting the same Physical Mitigation buffs as a Warrior, BUT if our role is supposed to be that of an Arcane Tank, then something needs to be done to distinguish us in that regards. Give us a temporary +300 Resist Buff....let us absorb x amount of casting mobs incoming attacks....something!! Peple have gotten so caught up in this one buff that Guardians get, they've missed ALL the other abilities that we can choose. They -have- given us exactly that. Our 50% damage absorb ability effects incoming damage -sources- which I read as physical and spell damage. One of our spell lines is a -reflect- ability. The AA's provide all the tools necessary, but I think that here, Meridian, you're falling trap to the same though process so many others have. That the AA line is meant to make us just as good end game raid mobs as Guardians in every respect. If that happens though, what role is the Guardian left?What I'm tired of hearing is Paladins wanting to tank EVERYTHING. Well, I'm sorry, but we're not meant to tank EVERYTHING. We are designed to better withstand certain spells and tank in certain circumstances (I'm not nearly high enough level to pretend I know what those are). But I'm tired of other Pallies whining because they don't have mitigation or hps like a Guard. Well... you want hps and mit like a guard, play a guard. You want to be something special, more than just a meat sheild, then continue to play your Pally.Get to L60 start raiding T6 instances, and then tell me which epics we are better suited to tank then a Guardian. Some people might think The Black Queen because of Magic Resists....fine and dandy til she hits you with her Piercing attack 2 rounds in a row. I am fine with the HP position because with potions we can get right around them, but mitigation is king still. Covering this part for Leawyn. There is no mob that a Pally can't tank. No mob an SK can't tak even. But some will be slightly better then others. That's the point in class diversity. I think we are much better general tanks then Guardians, and I don't begrudge them being slightly better raid tanks because of that. Being slightly better doesn't mean that you can't swap out if necessar, or that a Paladin is incapable of doing the job. I've seen crusaders tank through most everything a Guardian can... And sometimes to even better effect. I consider myself a pretty good tank, I get complimented alot when I am in groups. But I will be the first one to admit that I am no expert. I played a pally for 70 levels in EQ1 and I knew my role then and I am confident I played it well. I am only 47 but leveling fast to join my guild in raids. Raiding is what I want to do. But, I have learned in my many years of MMOing, that no matter what, there will always be people who think their class needs to be improved, they want to be the best tank, best heals, best dps out there. Well, you can't be the best at everything. If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.See my above comments, since I have to get back to work and don't have time to respond to this part Now I'm getting off my soap box. *Hopefully my points will be more valid, being both 60 and in a high end raid guild.* Summary:I signed up to be a tank, and while I understand that we can't be a copy of a Warrior tank...we still need some type of advantage over a Warrior in tanking. As I stated above, there are ways to do that, without giving us the same Physical Mitigation (by giving us the same types of skills but arcane based).When you get to L60 and start raiding, you will fast find out that unless you consider tanking yard trash to be fullfilling, that I was indeed correct -- and dont' get my started on aggro control, because I am hoping with LU20 fixing Sigil that we can at least get some help with that.^^ re-reading this it seems I might have came off pretty harsh....if I did sound that way I am sorry.. I didn't mean for it to come out that way (as most people here can attest, I am a pretty nice guy) Not harsh, and I completely respect your view Phov. In my opinion, You, Iustus, Uzihel, -jb and a few others here are probably the most knowledgeable about the paladin class that I've ever seen... But I think what you're asking for is already there. The AA's -have- given us extra abilities to tank that can make up for physical mitigation... But they are not meant to be used to have us replace a Guardian in the one area they really excel.

02-12-2006, 06:13 AM	#70
Pathin Merrithay Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 473	Iustus wrote: I agree with Phov, the previous poster. I signed up to be a tank. That was the whole promise of EQ2, back when it was a gleam in the developers eyes, that all fighters would be able to tank. Being able to tank in groups but not in raids does not do it for me. How would a shaman feel if they were told they could not heal or debuff on raids, but had to just melee attack? How would a guardian feel if they were told their job was to debuff the mob with hex dolls and to make sure they got a full set of the debuffs dolls? Doing one of these things on one encounter is fine, but being told this is your job night after night is not going to wash. If I cannot be a raid tank as a paladin, then I am not sure I want to keep playing. Thats the bottom line for me, personally. I do not want to play a guardian. I want to play a paladin and raid tank, without severly crippling my guild by doing so. I raid tank now, but I suspect that it is to the guilds detriment. While we have beat the godking, we have been unable to beat the black queen, and ped of sky is not even close. It is beyond frustrating to think that we are losing not because we have a poor strat, or because we execute poorly, but because I am tanking as a paladin. I thought the whole point was no one class was essential to raid? It sure does not seem like that is turning out to be true if you want to kill the hardest mobs. I am very discouraged right now. -I *In a blue mood today* Nobody here, I think, is arguing that a palsdin cannot tank end game mobs. That's simply not the case. And no, no one class is essential on a raid, but from what I also remember of chat conversations Iustus, you stated that you were missing several classes in your guild that I would consider key in effective, high end raiding situations. Sometimes, to kill a mob, you have to be nearly perfect. NPU proved that recently taking down the Djinn Master. No class is -essential- but when you're missing multiple key ones, it isn't making things easier. The AA's have given us awesome tools... It's just up to us to use them and not argue about who's grass is greener. An extra 340 mit (If we were to get that buff instead of Guards) still doesn't instantly propel us into the top teir, always there, tank of choice for raiding.

02-12-2006, 10:29 AM	#71
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	The funny thing is, I believe NPU doesn't even have a Paladin anymore - So we are one of those un-needed classes...lol(just checked they don't have a Paladin - and they just beat Djinn Master again)Oh and sorry about earlier, I was at work and didn't want to be there __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

02-12-2006, 04:03 PM	#72
Cu Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 72	They don't have a pally and they're not looking for one either. Quite honestly, why would they want one? I'm glad people here still defend the class and argue we're not completely useless (we aren't), that's true pally spirit Though doesn't change the fact that for high end encounters pallies are semi-useless and AAs aren't gonna make it better, they're gonna make it worse. It's not the end of the world, of course, and sure you can still have a lot of fun with pallies but I'm seeing this trend with A LOT of high end raid pallies either quitting or rolling an alt and high end guilds not needing any pallies. I think that's pretty alarming and discouraging. __________________ Deydra, Paladin of Cadre Starlyn Clickingheels, the gnome Britney Spears Toxxulia

02-12-2006, 08:14 PM	#73
SniperKitty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	I chose Fighter on the Isle of Refuge because I wanted to be a tank. I became a Crusader and then a Paladin because that style of play intrigued me the most. I wanted to stand fast against any foe set before me through strength at arms and the faith I placed in myself, my allies, and the divine. I wanted to be a zealous leader. Fanatical almost in my determination to destroy my foes. Implacable in my wrath.At no point during the class quests did the trainer tell me I would not be able to tank certain things. From the beginning, I was always a fighter first and foremost. I was a tank. Every fighter, regardless of class or sub-class must be able to tank 100% of the content in game. Otherwise if there is one fighter that can tank all the content, they become the default tank for everything and we end up devolving back into the bullcrap from EQ1 with the warrior being the only tank for raiding.The archetype system promised equality, or at least interchangeability. The MT group set up would be Fighter, Cleric, Shaman, Druid, Scout/Mage. Or if the raid was easy enough, replace one of the three priests with either a scout or mage, depending on what you already have. The ideal group setup would be Fighter, Priest, Scout/Mage x 4. Regardless of the class or sub-class, that would be the ideal setup for either the mt group or your average xp group. That's what was promised to us by the devs before EQ2 released and I'm going to hold them to that promise.I want all content to be able to be tanked or healed or dps'd by any group setup using the above guidelines. There absolutely cannot be a single class that is favored above all others for the majority of the content. There absolutely cannot be a single class that is a one trick pony. All classes must have diversity and a role in all tiers of content.I am a fighter. I am a crusader. I am a paladin. Above all, I am a tank and I will spit in the face of anyone that says I cannot be the main tank in a raid and I will fight for the improvements needed to make all tanks equally capable on all raids. If guardians become the default raid tank, then there's no reason to include any other type of fighter in the game. Just give guardians some of the key abilities from the other fighters and get rid of the rest.The reason for the archetype system was to create diversity with interchangeablility. Any paladin who claims they're not meant to raid tank should just keep their fingers tied and stop posting that horrible opinion. Paladins are a member of the fighter archetype and thus are meant to be tanks... regardless of the content. __________________ ... in bed.

02-12-2006, 10:03 PM	#74
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	SniperKitty wrote:The reason for the archetype system was to create diversity with interchangeablility. Any paladin who claims they're not meant to raid tank should just keep their fingers tied and stop posting that horrible opinion. Paladins are a member of the fighter archetype and thus are meant to be tanks... regardless of the content. I don't think anyone is saying that Paladins are not meant to raid tank. Pallies are perfectly capable of being the MT on anything. But also understand that they may not be the ideal candidate for every job. Just as guardians are not the ideal candidate for every job. Just like SK's, bruisers, monks, and zerkers are not as well. Each of those classes can tank raid mobs (and I've seen them do it). *BUT* if you want to match the HP and Mitigation of a guardian/zerker, AND have your specialized abilities to heal and ward yourself, you are asking to put guardians out of business. They deserve to have something better than we do, because we DO have the ability to heal ourselves and others. I don't know why this concept seems difficult to grasp for some people. __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

02-12-2006, 10:31 PM	#75
SniperKitty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	No, I perfectly understand guardians need to be better at something. I just don't agree that it should be raid tanking. If there's one fighter that's the best at raid tanking, they become the de facto, the only raid tank. However the guardians specialty, group defense, is counter to the tanks job of maintaining aggro. Which is why I would make a radical change that would throw everyone in game or any mmo for a loop.Get rid of taunts.I believe that taunts are the single most overpowering ability in any game and force the designers to create everything with that in mind. If I had the chance to design the combat aspect of a mmo, I would remove taunts, give everyone the ability to achieve the same armor class (completely avoidance based), and a damage reduction aspect (what mitigation is). Each class would have similar dps capability as well. The differences would be their specialty, their style of attacks (animations/effects/etc), appearance, and hit points.With everyone having the same capability of AC/DR/DPS, the only balancing factor becomes the specialty aspect which makes it much easier to balance. Priests specialty would be healing. Paladins would be divine damage/healing. Guardians would be defensive, making the entire group harder to kill. Shadowknights would be unholy and so on and so forth. Combat would be a heckuva lot more interesting too with larger groups of foes, since even a mage would be able to stand toe-to-toe with most creatures.Instead of giving an epic creature devestatingly high damage attacks... give them attack routines that target multiple people in a group/raid and inflict various status effects. It would make the game much more interesting. At least in my opinion. I'd have much more fun playing a game like that instead of one where a single person taunts everything and everyone else blasts the same target and them moves on to the next. __________________ ... in bed.

02-12-2006, 11:43 PM	#76
RBent72 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 10	Wow Sniperkitty, you "spit in the face of anyone that says I cannot be the main tank in a raid...."? Take it easy, bud, it's not that big of a deal. :smileyhappy: Listen, I raid about 2-3 times a week, usually multiple raids each time. While a Pally certainly CAN be the MT, I have yet to see a specific T5 or T6 raid where that is the best option. I know, I know, SOE said that different tanks would be needed for certain raids, but it just hasn't worked out that way as far as I can see. SOE says lots of things that don't pan out. My divine resist is off the charts, but what raid mob uses only divine attacks? Our mitigation buff is the best in the game (as far as I know), and our group heal is pretty nice too. I spend much of my raid time in the main group largely because of these two abilities, which means I certainly contribute to the raid, and that's good isn't it? I mean, if you MT, and a guardian is in the raid, what is he gonna do, DPS? :smileywink: The majority of my playing time is spent outside of raids, where I am the MT almost all of the time. So you ARE a tank. Pallys are simply not the best tank for raids at this time. I have a feeling that AA that ends with an Immunity to Fear might come in handy on some future T7 raid, but we'll have to see. I appreciate how you would like to change things, but SOE seems pretty set on the formula they have been using, and I don't expect them to make the fundamental changes you discussed. Sorry you are so unhappy, but try to look at all the positive things you have going for your character. They're there, you just have to look hard for them sometimes. Chemos Andon 60 Paladin/Weaponsmith Siege Guild Najena Server

02-12-2006, 11:48 PM	#77
SniperKitty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	I want to be the MT. I started a guild for that reason and am in the process of making friends on my server and leading open raids on T4/5 content as I level through the 40's. I shouldn't be forced to play a guardian just to be a raid tank. That's not what SOE promised and I'm going to hold them to that promise. __________________ ... in bed.

02-13-2006, 03:03 AM	#78
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	I mean, if you MT, and a guardian is in the raid, what is he gonna do, DPS?Um, offtank? Guard the MT to keep them up. Intercede some heavy hits to spread out the massive damage a bit?Pull stragglers back to the MT... Guardians have the best ST taunts, allows them to fill that role well.There are a ton of roles for a Guardian, just like there are a ton of roles for a Paladin. Dont close your mind to options and use that cop-out. __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

02-13-2006, 03:36 AM	#79
SniperKitty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	Anariale wrote:I mean, if you MT, and a guardian is in the raid, what is he gonna do, DPS?Um, offtank? Guard the MT to keep them up. Intercede some heavy hits to spread out the massive damage a bit?Pull stragglers back to the MT... Guardians have the best ST taunts, allows them to fill that role well. There are a ton of roles for a Guardian, just like there are a ton of roles for a Paladin. Dont close your mind to options and use that cop-out. Heh, try teaching that to the guardians. They are staid in their stubborn minded determination that they are to be the best and only raid tank, regardless of what SOE does or any of the other players want. I personally think there are far too many fighters in the game period. About 75% of them need to be culled. I'm tired of joining a pick up raid early on and then seeing seven or eight other fighters invited as well. Slow raid day... sighs Replace all of 'em with dps and it'd cut the time to clear by half.And if you ask guardians... they hate intercede and any other abilities that take damage from other people. Their only defense against it is that it makes the healer work harder. Bullcrap. I play a healer and I love it when another tank can spread out the hits on multiple people instead of just one person. It's not like they're taking constant damage by doing that. Which means in between main heals on the main tank, I can toss out a regen or a group heal and fix 'em right up before they can intercede again.Group heals for my warden are by far the most efficient heal I have. While I prefer to run xp groups with only one tank, I can understand the value of having a second tank in the MT group if you don't need all three healers and/or the buffer. I haven't looked, but if they allowed intercede and other similar abilities to work raid wide, it'd be awesome. I'd love to have multiple tanks eating the damage across the entire raid, rather than one tank eating it all. __________________ ... in bed.

02-13-2006, 03:45 AM	#80
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Guardians are "in power" because the rumor mill keeps them there. Its in their best interests to keep it that way, so they keep saying "dont use X ability" or argue that their only role is to tank, when its simply not true. Even so, that doesnt matter, because Perception > Reality in MMO's.All the more reason not to persist these rumors on the Paladin boards, where we KNOW better. Message Edited by Anariale on 02-12-200605:46 PM __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

02-13-2006, 04:01 AM	#81
Emo General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 86	Intercede [Master I] Target: Raid or Group Friend every fighter gets it at lvl 34... as for us not capable tanking raid mobs... I duo tanked sunchild before he was dimmed down with the removal of imunities, now without the immunities I can tank him no problem... I tanked about every mob in PP:r, Court of Al afaz, I tanked several contested mobs...I'm probably forgetting certain stuff My point is that Paladins can tank almost as well as Guardians, it's a little bit of shuffling around in groups, but believe it or not..some encounters go a bit smoother with a paladin, some not... tanking is not the issue here tho...some people seem to assume that the Achievements are suddenly gonna give us abilities that are undreamed of...they do not...they should not, they are achievements, we achieved something..they give us a nifty ability or something extra, they shouldn't give us an unfair advantage against other things...don't look at guardians all the time...have we come to the point that we are the envious little brother who wants everything? If you want to know guardians are envious of us...we have greater utility, with the achievements they are getting..they are getting shoved into their little corner yet again...tank...thats all they are good for, while we as crusader/paladin, we can heal, we can dps when we are attacking group mobs, we have greater attacks against undead, we have good group buffs and with those achievements, our strong points are getting a little bit improved, we're getting greater group utility with buffs, we are getting some nifty new attacks that'll improve our dps, solo mobs as well as group mobs, and yes...our defensive capabilities are getting improved too we are getting resistances against most stuns...thats no small feature... try looking at the whole picture instead of looking at only ONE aspect of our class, we can tank, we sure can, but we are so much more too, don't stare yourself blind on what other classes are getting and be glad with what we got

02-13-2006, 04:28 AM	#82
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	we are getting resistances against most stuns.I would be shocked to see any Paladins putting 24 points into the Agility / Spear / Horseback lineAnd it reads "knockdowns" not stuns... and only works while on horseback Message Edited by Anariale on 02-12-200606:44 PM __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

02-13-2006, 05:03 AM	#83
Pathin Merrithay Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 473	SniperKitty wrote: Anariale wrote:I mean, if you MT, and a guardian is in the raid, what is he gonna do, DPS?Um, offtank? Guard the MT to keep them up. Intercede some heavy hits to spread out the massive damage a bit?Pull stragglers back to the MT... Guardians have the best ST taunts, allows them to fill that role well. There are a ton of roles for a Guardian, just like there are a ton of roles for a Paladin. Dont close your mind to options and use that cop-out. Heh, try teaching that to the guardians. They are staid in their stubborn minded determination that they are to be the best and only raid tank, regardless of what SOE does or any of the other players want. I personally think there are far too many fighters in the game period. About 75% of them need to be culled. I'm tired of joining a pick up raid early on and then seeing seven or eight other fighters invited as well. Slow raid day... sighs Replace all of 'em with dps and it'd cut the time to clear by half.And if you ask guardians... they hate intercede and any other abilities that take damage from other people. Their only defense against it is that it makes the healer work harder. Bullcrap. I play a healer and I love it when another tank can spread out the hits on multiple people instead of just one person. It's not like they're taking constant damage by doing that. Which means in between main heals on the main tank, I can toss out a regen or a group heal and fix 'em right up before they can intercede again.Group heals for my warden are by far the most efficient heal I have. While I prefer to run xp groups with only one tank, I can understand the value of having a second tank in the MT group if you don't need all three healers and/or the buffer. I haven't looked, but if they allowed intercede and other similar abilities to work raid wide, it'd be awesome. I'd love to have multiple tanks eating the damage across the entire raid, rather than one tank eating it all. That's why you have off tanks and off-tank groups. Something else Paladins can also do. Intercede is usually a poor idea on raids. It works once, and can drop you like a stone if you're not fully buffed... You'll likely experience that, as you get higher in raiding, that the MT is there for a reason... To take the hits. But all of this aside, the last dozen or so posts all I've seen are posts about how SoE is horrible, are slapping us in the face, etc etc because Paladins can't raid MT... I don't know how I could have been more clear in previous posts, so, here, once again... WE CAN NOBODY has said that we can't. People are reading too much into these posts (except apparently, mine) because the -only- thing that's been stated is that Guardians can MT raids -better-. That doesn't make us a completely invalid option. That doesn't make us horrible an inferior. It just means, in one aspect of the game, they do something better. And this is the concept that I myself am having trouble wrapping my mind around, so I'm going to try phrasing it another way... Paladins are a better standard tank choice then a guardian. So, you want to shift this so Paladins also are their equal at Raid tanking. If that is the case, what exactly are you willing to give up to accomplish this? I'm throwing this challenge out to anyone. If you want to make Paladins as good at tanking raids as Guardians, show us what we should get to close that gap... And then show me what you are willing to sacrifice in our present abilities to receive that. Then bear in mind, that not only must it be ok with the general Paladin community, but it also must not make Guardians an inviable option. (ie: If we tank standard groups better then Guardians, and raid mobs just as well, then what role are you going to give them that they'd be happy with?) Anyone up for it?

02-13-2006, 05:30 AM	#84
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	"thing that's been stated is that Guardians can MT raids -better-"And once again, youre wrong. They cant do it better, they do it differently. Paladins can be just as effective of a MT as a Guardian can, end of story. __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

02-13-2006, 05:40 AM	#85
Pathin Merrithay Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 473	Anariale wrote:"thing that's been stated is that Guardians can MT raids -better-"And once again, youre wrong. They cant do it better, they do it differently. Paladins can be just as effective of a MT as a Guardian can, end of story. No, actually, I'm not. A Paladin -can- MT raids well. A Guardian -can- do it better. I assure you, I am not inexperienced in this and can back up my resume/first-hand knowledge if you wish. I also notice... No response to my challenge?

02-13-2006, 05:52 AM	#86
SniperKitty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	Pathin Merrithay wrote: No, actually, I'm not. A Paladin -can- MT raids well. A Guardian -can- do it better. I assure you, I am not inexperienced in this and can back up my resume/first-hand knowledge if you wish. I also notice... No response to my challenge? Well let's see. Guardians have an advantage for tanking raid mobs because of their defensive buffs, hp buffs, and tower shield. I don't really care about the tower shield, it's not the big of a factor anyway compared to our kite shields. It would be nice to have some hp buffs like paladin's used to. The brell's line comes to mind. That would close the gap some. Maybe add a small defensive buff to it as well. Hell, make it targetable on only one person so if we aren't the main tank, we can use it on whomever is. Give guardians something similar.As for what else to give the guardian... well, aside from /yell and running, they really don't have much in the way of an escape method. Paladins don't have much of one either though. How about a 15 minute recast AE knockdown/stun for six seconds. Affects heroics and solos only and automatically breaks the encounter. That way it's not used for normal xp'ing. It's only an escape power. Guardians could also use their up front dps increased a little bit. Currently, they match a bruiser for dps while tanking every thirty seconds of a fight. Increase that to maybe every 15 seconds for a smoother comparison.The other option I would suggest is revamping them to be a reactive tank utilizing parries, ripostes, trips, and shield bashing. Or you could give them more shield only abilities that up their dps slightly. __________________ ... in bed.

02-13-2006, 09:11 AM	#87
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	Tower Shield becomes a non issue is KoS - Paladins can use Tower Shields...just an fyiGranted we can tank raids (hell I just ended up tanking a bunch of the final 3 named in Poets)....I guess what I really want to get at is a true diversity then.Guardians > Paladins for Phyiscal Mitigation named epics.Paladins > Guardians for Arcane named epics.While it seemed that this was going to be the case, with the right classes, gear and potions it is not. Guardians are head and shoulders above us for Physical, but we are not heads and shoulders above for arcane.Make it so that we are the preferred Arcane tanks (with skills that help that) and I am happy __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

02-13-2006, 10:07 AM	#88
Iustus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 133	Leawyn wrote: SniperKitty wrote:The reason for the archetype system was to create diversity with interchangeablility. Any paladin who claims they're not meant to raid tank should just keep their fingers tied and stop posting that horrible opinion. Paladins are a member of the fighter archetype and thus are meant to be tanks... regardless of the content. I don't think anyone is saying that Paladins are not meant to raid tank. Pallies are perfectly capable of being the MT on anything. But also understand that they may not be the ideal candidate for every job. Just as guardians are not the ideal candidate for every job. Just like SK's, bruisers, monks, and zerkers are not as well. Each of those classes can tank raid mobs (and I've seen them do it). *BUT* if you want to match the HP and Mitigation of a guardian/zerker, AND have your specialized abilities to heal and ward yourself, you are asking to put guardians out of business. They deserve to have something better than we do, because we DO have the ability to heal ourselves and others. I don't know why this concept seems difficult to grasp for some people. I added the red. This is just not the case. I wish it was. The way the game balance stacks, in reality, not how it should be, is that some mobs cannot be realistically tanked with a paladin (or a SK for that matter, or a brawler). Guardians get a whole slew of abilites that are ideal for raid tanking. Their abilites (1) scale with the power of the mob, so that their tanking abilites scale to those 4x mobs that hit for 5k-10k points plus, and (2) are self only, they cannot be used on other tanks Paladins get abilites which are both fixed in value, so they do not scale with the difficulty of the mob (a heal heals the same 1k points, whether the mob is hitting you for 500 once every 2 seconds, or 4k 3 times a second.), so paladins fail in both these areas: (1) no scaling with mob difficulty, and (2) you can use this abilities on a guardian, to make him a better tank. So, in as much as they are useful, its more useful to a raid for you to heal the tank, rather than heal yourself tanking. ---------------------- Brainstorming Solutions (some prob not all of the following): (1) Give crusaders some mitigation (straight up, or crushing/piercing/slashing, or both) self buffs (2) add +parry to the crusader defensive stance (3) give crusaders some 30 sec duration tanking buffs: perhaps like the other fighters get, perhaps a total immunity to magic and divine damage for 30 sec, this would be better balanced (at least on some mobs) with the guardian higher mitigation vs all physical, than just having 1850 more resists, which frankly is nearly insignificant even on the worst mobs. (4) change paladins self-heal to be fast cast, not interruptable, and scale with the power of the mob (perhaps heal for more the more you are hurt) (honestly I think this would be really hard to balance, but for those purists that want to keep paladin balance through heals, something needs to be added that scales with the speed and intensity of the mob hits (5) add stance which increases mitigation vs physical/crushing/percing/slashing but does not allow us to cast heals or wards while it is up. (6) throw a non-tanking bone to guardians if one is needed. There has to be a reason to play a guardian if crusaders can tank as well on raids. (I do not know what the reason is though) -I

02-13-2006, 06:05 PM	#89
Scadie Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: Hamburg Posts: 52	I´m raiding 3-4 times a week all the T6 Epics... and my experience ist that Paladins sometimes can tank better than Guardians and sometimes Guardian better than Paladins.. Allmost its Encounter based which class do the job better.. At Dinree in GoAA for example our Raid wiped 3 time till i do the job as MT and at first try it was a succes the same thing at the Great Gardener in CoAA.. I just want that the role Paladins are actually playing will stay in Future.. and Paladin will still rule.. Paladin Rules __________________ Phenomax - 70 Guardian of Valor - Scadie - 70 Paladin [Retired] Xandro - 70 Bruiser [Farmbot ^^] Cinon LVL 48 Zerker - Actually playin on PVP onyl..

02-13-2006, 06:09 PM	#90
Guiddian Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 98	i was just trying to say these aa's would have been better suited on a paladin, rather than a templar. i can just see it now fighting an undead epic.... pallies to the back and heal templars to the front and dps. something is just plain wrong about this Message Edited by Guiddian on 02-13-200605:13 AM