Paladin Feedback Thread

[Bruener]

Maergoth wrote:

So far, EVERY TANK BESIDES PALADINS has a Stoneskin. We're not asking for strikethrough immunity like brawlers have, we're not asking for reinforcement or bloodletter. (Even though Guardians have mini amends now and SKs have a self ward)

Wait, every other class has absorbed the things that made our class desireable? Huh. I wonder if that's a problem.

Currently yes, raid content is "Time your saves to block automatic kills". That's all it takes to handle the primary mob on every fight this expansion. Some aren't as bad as others, but that's the only time an issue arises. The incapability of a paladin in this situation is ridiculous. As stated before, other tanks can survive sets of one shots before needing help. Paladins can survive two to three. One with Reflect, one with Manawall (Assuming we even have the mana to spare). Brawlers can survive an unlimited number, monks at least.

Since practically every AOE hits for upwards of 100k frontal on difficult content, it's guaranteed to kill. Some fights have two AOEs or a death touch component. On those, we're tapped after one round.

It's important to note that because other tanks have more, they can rotate their saves.

Assuming 45 seconds between AOEs/One Shots and ~60% Reuse:

Shadowknights can Blood siphon (Ward, 1:30 recast, every other AOE), Reflect, (3:00 recast, every 4th AOE), Ward, manawall (2:00 Recast, every 3 AOES) , ward ,  Reflect, ward, manawall, ward.. etc. If it's a mana intensive fight and they can't rotate manawall, they can ALLOW DI TRIGGERS TO DROP because they have like 3 triggers. This isn't including priest saves or DI's, myth click or makeshift saves like furor to build up wards).

Paladins looks more like this: Manawall, Reflect, Stonewall + Demonstration of Faith, (Divine Favor), Manawall, Divine Favor.. Then we start yelling in vent for DIs from priests, whether stonewall comes back or not because we can't risk dying using a wimpy last resort combo.

*NOTE* Stonewall is a 1m reuse, only blocks melee for ward purposes, not reliable but better to try while Divine Favor is still up.

Any questions?

Only adjustment on your analysis I would make is counting Blood Siphon as a relaible save, I have died many times putting up Blood Siphon for an AE and having it eat right through it and my hps, it also is a detriment to your group when an AE is incoming because it drains all their health 25% causing a risk of killing group members.

But yeah, you think it is bad on some encounters now...have you pulled Gregore?  Gotta love massive physical AEs like every 18 sec with other huge elemental AE that non of them have casting bars showing.  So basically it is DP or Die as others have coined it.  More mechanics to favor Leathers really.

Good news though, the fix is nerfing encounters to not do as much damage so that it doesn't seem as imbalanced.

At least they nerfed the snot out of strike thru mechanics since that was just stupid.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Enrico@Permafrost wrote:

So if the raid tanking mechanic is "time your saves to block the automatic kills" then all tanks need the saves to do that.  I don't know if that is a content design issue or just a lack of communication between content and class designers?

I disagre, if all tanks get this ability, then all tanks should get every ability.

I stated previously in this thread the reasonable amount of damage prevents crusaders should get and on what max reuse timers.  They should be able to cover more than 50% on their own, probably closer to 75% of them, and the remaining odd hit covered by the many targetable stoneskins avaiable from other classes.  If we're going to give enough of these abilities to every class, then other tanks need to get alot more stuff to.

Do what?  By "this ability" you mean the basic tools to perform the role of tanking in this expansion, regardless of your specific tanking class?

[Buzzing]

/wrists

[Maergoth]

The reason blood siphon isn't saving you is because it's getting chewed through by melee attacks. Try coupling it with Furor or even Divine Aura and you'll notice it being much more reliable. This will also allow you to cast it much earlier, since it has a 15 second duration, without losing much off of it and giving your group time to recover before the AOE hits.

I have pulled everything anyone else has, so yes..  it's a joke. There is no grey area currently. Your class can either survive it, which most can, or your class can't, which is our situation. They wouldn't have to nerf it if they just varied the types of survivability required on a mob to mob basis.

How about a mob that hits much more often for less? How about an AOE that ticks hard and fast, but doesn't one-shot? You can still make it difficult with proper tweaking, but that doesn't really fix the fact that any tank can do anything but Paladins, and to a lesser extent Berserkers.

'You tell Darkonx, 'Your class has too many saves..' Darkonx tells you, 'Lol, don't you have stonewall and heals?'

Shadowknights have better survivability on all fronts, better DPS, better utility, and better aggro tools. How is this not a big red flag? I'm not a fan of irrational complaining, but how is this even remotely fair? People aren't complaining en masse because they simply don't know better, and because nothing gets done.

The heal change was a good idea, but it was a drop of water in an endless sea. Dust in the wind, etc.

[Cellia]

I think Paladin is a defensive Tank.

But  Pal can't survive from massive damage , specially Raid mob's some AoE(death blow)

We have devine favor , but only one time. So I need stoneskin skill.

I need Position up skill & Stoneskin....

[Buzzing]

Cellia@Sebilis wrote:

I think Paladin is a defensive Tank.

But  Pal can't survive from massive damage , specially Raid mob's some AoE(death blow)

We have devine favor , but only one time. So I need stoneskin skill.

I need Position up skill & Stoneskin....

neet, thanks for poping in

[Boli32]

Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.

The paladin ability to tank is FLAWED by the simple matter of we have to take the damage before we can actually heal it.

We are repeating the same thing over and over again because it is that big of an issue. lack of snaps can be a pain but we can *generally* get around it - constantly needing a rez when you are meant to be the "joint equal" or second most defensive tank in the game is not something we can no-longer ignore.

After all... who wants to invite a tank on raids when their ability to survive content is dubious at best. Only guardian's give less to a raid spot as far as DPS and utility is concerned and even then they have the snaps to deal with membluring adds (we do not) and recapture/got your back mean they have a solid selection of OTing tools; all paladins can bring to an OT spot is the ability to annoy the MT by pulling agro.

[Yimway]

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.

Stonewall should be a stoneskin, probably a 2 hit one.  I'd argue the change warants a recast change from 1:30 to ~1:45, but I'd not argue *that* strongly.  I think it would be even more flavor if it was castable on raid friend.

That simple change would go a long way to making the class more viable defensively.

[OrcSlayer96]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.

Stonewall should be a stoneskin, probably a 2 hit one.  I'd argue the change warants a recast change from 1:30 to ~1:45, but I'd not argue *that* strongly.  I think it would be even more flavor if it was castable on raid friend.

That simple change would go a long way to making the class more viable defensively.

Leave Stonewall alone on duration and make it strikethru immune, either that or make it 100% uncontetested dodge during those 8 seconds so it is another way to be a true save versus the RNG  death trap it is now.  With the native recast on this Super Endline on our Shadows tree coupled with aa's and decent recast of 40% or so it is up for those 1 minute timer mega hits like Smash.  If I wanted a 2 hit stoneskin i would roll a guardian have my selection of multiple ones on various timers.  Currently as a paladin i have Stonewall, and if i wish to penalize myself on losing zealous smite i can use the 1-2 hit wonder of manawall if my power is at its peak(the times you need it are usually against mobs with power drains).  Instead of asking to nerf my class on test Atan, maybe you need to look at your own...

[Yimway]

OrcSlayer96 wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.

Stonewall should be a stoneskin, probably a 2 hit one.  I'd argue the change warants a recast change from 1:30 to ~1:45, but I'd not argue *that* strongly.  I think it would be even more flavor if it was castable on raid friend.

That simple change would go a long way to making the class more viable defensively.

 Instead of asking to nerf my class on test Atan, maybe you need to look at your own...

How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? 

I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?

[OrcSlayer96]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

OrcSlayer96 wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.

Stonewall should be a stoneskin, probably a 2 hit one.  I'd argue the change warants a recast change from 1:30 to ~1:45, but I'd not argue *that* strongly.  I think it would be even more flavor if it was castable on raid friend.

That simple change would go a long way to making the class more viable defensively.

 Instead of asking to nerf my class on test Atan, maybe you need to look at your own...

How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? 

I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?

wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.  All Stonewall needs is to be strikethru immune and everything else on it stays the same.  You have megaward classes confused as that is the shadowknight aa, understandable as the devs usually confuse our two classes when they want to adjust aa's anyways.

Funny that guardians seem like everything is "right" with the fact they have a mini amends hate siphon ala amends, but when paladins ask to have their only true stoneskin fixed they want to come into the thread asking for longer recasts and reduced duration for a imiginary improvement on raiding content.  There is other items they need tweaking like the proposed heal on intercept aa that takes a min 40 secs to hit the target and the complete inability to grasp that arch heal in its current form has been relatively worthless as a paladin endline since the heal crit nerf hit fighters and was highly useless before.  There was a idea of having Arch Heal changed to a 2-3 all damage stoneskin on a 1.5 to 2 min recast among others but havent seen anything on test to support the devs even looking at this aa.  Would have been nice also while they changed the knights stance aa to not effect ranged weapons that they changed the use to apply the bonus to primary slot only, allowing 2 handers or 1 hander the increase.  It would counter warrior 20% higher crit bonus they have and be competitive to a dual weilding warrior versus 2 hander crusader.

They should have changed lay on hands aa to be a mush larger reduction on power used, with the final 5th rank causing no power used like the original version was before they changed base recast on it and harm touch and left sk harm touch with no power needed to be cast.  The demonstation of faith ward aa should have a mit buff that lasts 24 secs regardless if the ward is used at max 5 ranks and cannot stack with itself being as the best the recast can be is 30 seconds.  Our death prevent aa should have at 5 points max rank a reduced recast of at least 15 secs in addition to removal of stifle/daze penalty we have on it.

Our shared concentrator in the crusader line should have a small amount of plus weapon and spell skills to help out the crusader's shared casting of combat arts/autoattack and spells and unlike the focus bonus we recieve when we drop below 50% health this would be on at all times.

These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...

[Yimway]

OrcSlayer96 wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? 

I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?

wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.

These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...

I've read the thread and raided on my paladin enough to know the issue isn't surviving MA's, all plate tanks suffer that nearly the same.  What everyone repeatedly complains about is enough abilities to survive the OMG PWN 1-Shot aoes that come on predictable timers.  I understand you don't feel that is where the class lacks in tanking, but it seems most of the raiding paladins I recognize in this thread do.

Several of the other ideas involved heal conversions to wards.  After considering these proposed sollutions and how they will impact things outside of raiding, it is the wrong solution to the right problem.  If you want raid survivability tools, those are spike preventers that do little benefit outside of raids.  If you don't want more raid survivability, fine.

If you want to be competitive with guardian and brawlers, you need more abilty to combat damage that would otherwise one-shot you.  I'm honestly at a loss how you don't see that, and I'd like to see from others how they feel about it.

For the record, I've hated that 'amends-lite' since the idea was introduced, it should be removed from the game.

*Also, stonewall doesn't need strikethru immunity as they're tweaking back strikethru in general.

[OrcSlayer96]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

OrcSlayer96 wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? 

I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?

wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.

These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...

I've read the thread and raided on my paladin enough to know the issue isn't surviving MA's, all plate tanks suffer that nearly the same.  What everyone repeatedly complains about is enough abilities to survive the OMG PWN 1-Shot aoes that come on predictable timers.  I understand you don't feel that is where the class lacks in tanking, but it seems most of the raiding paladins I recognize in this thread do.

Several of the other ideas involved heal conversions to wards.  After considering these proposed sollutions and how they will impact things outside of raiding, it is the wrong solution to the right problem.  If you want raid survivability tools, those are spike preventers that do little benefit outside of raids.  If you don't want more raid survivability, fine.

If you want to be competitive with guardian and brawlers, you need more abilty to combat damage that would otherwise one-shot you.  I'm honestly at a loss how you don't see that, and I'd like to see from others how they feel about it.

For the record, I've hated that 'amends-lite' since the idea was introduced, it should be removed from the game.

*Also, stonewall doesn't need strikethru immunity as they're tweaking back strikethru in general.

You must have misundertood me then, when you proposed a any hit 2 hit stoneskin, you are ignoring the fact that any name is multiattacking before the big hit we are trying to protect ourself from.  Many of these big hits requires the mob to hit you for the effect to hit.  I am not talking about focus damage failures but similar effect like the kreeger fight in kraytoc's where the mob places a curse on you and if he hits you a attack smash occurs and kills you if your death prevent is not up.  Stonewall in current form allows a strikthru name to bypass and still hit you making the smash kill you.  For spell based attacks, Stonewall never before protected you unless you want to count whatever autoattacks the mobs are doing during the spell hit.  Your proposal of extending the stonewall to additional recast and 1-2 hits only makes it highly unlikely it can ever absorb the "big hit" among the other attacks incoming.  Tweaking strikethru on names does not mean elimination, for all we know it is 1% less strikethru then they have before as no numbers are released.

As far as the assumption that i do not want more survival against one shots, that is incorrect again.  I just do not feel changing Stonewall to your version accomplishes this.  As i said in a post above that you failed to quote, change the arch heal endline in paladins to a 2-3 hit all damage stoneskin and it would be infinitely more useful than its current state.

[Buzzing]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

OrcSlayer96 wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? 

I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?

wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.

These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...

I've read the thread and raided on my paladin enough to know the issue isn't surviving MA's, all plate tanks suffer that nearly the same.  What everyone repeatedly complains about is enough abilities to survive the OMG PWN 1-Shot aoes that come on predictable timers.  I understand you don't feel that is where the class lacks in tanking, but it seems most of the raiding paladins I recognize in this thread do.

Several of the other ideas involved heal conversions to wards.  After considering these proposed sollutions and how they will impact things outside of raiding, it is the wrong solution to the right problem.  If you want raid survivability tools, those are spike preventers that do little benefit outside of raids.  If you don't want more raid survivability, fine.

If you want to be competitive with guardian and brawlers, you need more abilty to combat damage that would otherwise one-shot you.  I'm honestly at a loss how you don't see that, and I'd like to see from others how they feel about it.

For the record, I've hated that 'amends-lite' since the idea was introduced, it should be removed from the game.

*Also, stonewall doesn't need strikethru immunity as they're tweaking back strikethru in general.

Sorry, Atan is correct here. Stonewall will be much more effective as is considering the nerf to strikethrew. He is also correct that keeping the heal flavor of paladins and changing some of the heals to be a ward would have a big impact on our roles outside of raiding. Meaning we would dominate group content which is not the solution either. On top of that he is correct to say that most tanks are fairly equal at surviving multi attacks. A good 1:30 stoneskin (2 or 3 hits, maybe 5 seconds at it's greatest) would be the most balanced solution. As much as I would love more snap agro Boli is correct in saying that we get by (though barely) and is a lower concern then the ability to live the one shots.

I need something that stops the one shot wonder.

[Loxus]

I think we're all pretty much talking about the same outcome with slightly different pathways to reach the desired endstate.  In which case I consede to Boli and Maer selected direction given their level of experience and the fact that they are probably 2 of the 3 most respected Pallys in the game. 

I'm on board with their ideas for the changes we need.

[Buzzing]

OrcSlayer96 wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

OrcSlayer96 wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? 

I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?

wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.

These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...

I've read the thread and raided on my paladin enough to know the issue isn't surviving MA's, all plate tanks suffer that nearly the same.  What everyone repeatedly complains about is enough abilities to survive the OMG PWN 1-Shot aoes that come on predictable timers.  I understand you don't feel that is where the class lacks in tanking, but it seems most of the raiding paladins I recognize in this thread do.

Several of the other ideas involved heal conversions to wards.  After considering these proposed sollutions and how they will impact things outside of raiding, it is the wrong solution to the right problem.  If you want raid survivability tools, those are spike preventers that do little benefit outside of raids.  If you don't want more raid survivability, fine.

If you want to be competitive with guardian and brawlers, you need more abilty to combat damage that would otherwise one-shot you.  I'm honestly at a loss how you don't see that, and I'd like to see from others how they feel about it.

For the record, I've hated that 'amends-lite' since the idea was introduced, it should be removed from the game.

*Also, stonewall doesn't need strikethru immunity as they're tweaking back strikethru in general.

You must have misundertood me then, when you proposed a any hit 2 hit stoneskin, you are ignoring the fact that any name is multiattacking before the big hit we are trying to protect ourself from.  Many of these big hits requires the mob to hit you for the effect to hit.  I am not talking about focus damage failures but similar effect like the kreeger fight in kraytoc's where the mob places a curse on you and if he hits you a attack smash occurs and kills you if your death prevent is not up.  Stonewall in current form allows a strikthru name to bypass and still hit you making the smash kill you.  For spell based attacks, Stonewall never before protected you unless you want to count whatever autoattacks the mobs are doing during the spell hit.  Your proposal of extending the stonewall to additional recast and 1-2 hits only makes it highly unlikely it can ever absorb the "big hit" among the other attacks incoming.  Tweaking strikethru on names does not mean elimination, for all we know it is 1% less strikethru then they have before as no numbers are released.

As far as the assumption that i do not want more survival against one shots, that is incorrect again.  I just do not feel changing Stonewall to your version accomplishes this.  As i said in a post above that you failed to quote, change the arch heal endline in paladins to a 2-3 hit all damage stoneskin and it would be infinitely more useful than its current state.

auto attacks thrashing your stoneskins is something all the tanks face, it would then be balanced across. This I would be fine with.

[Yimway]

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

A good 1:30 stoneskin (2 or 3 hits, maybe 5 seconds at it's greatest) would be the most balanced solution.

I need something that stops the one shot wonder.

Having been timing a 3 shot stoneskin for years, I'm confident 1-2 is enough.  With the cast bars and obvious animations now, it is not hard to get them in precisely when they are needed.  Rarely is one shot consumed before I need it, much less 2. With stonewall changed + the endline block, the death prevent becomes more of a stop-gap than something you rely on to prevent damage.

Paldin natural DR from myth, plus the instant heal, plus their own healing ability provides sufficiently equal footing on MA damage.

The alternative proposed change to Divine Aura could be done instead, however I feel the stonewall change would benefit Paladins more.  We'd get a longer survive time with DA, but the long recast is required due to the longer duratoin of the ability.  If its re-use was dropped enough to solve the paladin problem, its effectiveness would have to be greatly decreased as well.

Lastly, I would prefer archheal changed to provide an extra tick on Divine Favor.  This might be controversial to those that don't raid, but its the right direction for a crusader IMO.

[Buzzing]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Having been timing a 3 shot stoneskin for years, I'm confident 1-2 is enough.  With the cast bars and obvious animations now, it is not hard to get them in precisely when they are needed.  Rarely is one shot consumed before I need it, much less 2. With stonewall changed + the endline block, the death prevent becomes more of a stop-gap than something you rely on to prevent damage.

Paldin natural DR from myth, plus the instant heal, plus their own healing ability provides sufficiently equal footing on MA damage.

The alternative proposed change to Divine Aura could be done instead, however I feel the stonewall change would benefit Paladins more.  We'd get a longer survive time with DA, but the long recast is required due to the longer duratoin of the ability.  If its re-use was dropped enough to solve the paladin problem, its effectiveness would have to be greatly decreased as well.

Lastly, I would prefer archheal changed to provide an extra tick on Divine Favor.  This might be controversial to those that don't raid, but its the right direction for a crusader IMO.

+1

an extra tick on divine favor and fix DA to be half the duration and actually prevent the other half of the damage would give SK and Pali the CHANGES that we need to be competitive in the end game.

I highlight changes as we don't actually need to be boosted just tweeked to match the current content.

P.S. Arch Heal is useless so the extra tick would be extremely worth taking if it is changed.

[OrcSlayer96]

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Having been timing a 3 shot stoneskin for years, I'm confident 1-2 is enough.  With the cast bars and obvious animations now, it is not hard to get them in precisely when they are needed.  Rarely is one shot consumed before I need it, much less 2. With stonewall changed + the endline block, the death prevent becomes more of a stop-gap than something you rely on to prevent damage.

Paldin natural DR from myth, plus the instant heal, plus their own healing ability provides sufficiently equal footing on MA damage.

The alternative proposed change to Divine Aura could be done instead, however I feel the stonewall change would benefit Paladins more.  We'd get a longer survive time with DA, but the long recast is required due to the longer duratoin of the ability.  If its re-use was dropped enough to solve the paladin problem, its effectiveness would have to be greatly decreased as well.

Lastly, I would prefer archheal changed to provide an extra tick on Divine Favor.  This might be controversial to those that don't raid, but its the right direction for a crusader IMO.

+1

an extra tick on divine favor and fix DA to be half the duration and actually prevent the other half of the damage would give SK and Pali the CHANGES that we need to be competitive in the end game.

I highlight changes as we don't actually need to be boosted just tweeked to match the current content.

P.S. Arch Heal is useless so the extra tick would be extremely worth taking if it is changed.

If Stonewall is kept at the same recast as current and changed to a 3 hit all damage stoneskin, then it would be perfect, changing it to a 1 hit stoneskin and no other options to back it up would keep us still at the back of the line on comabtting the one hot kills.  I also like the extra trigger on Divine favor to replace the small heal of arch heal endline as like many others stated the current arch heal is worthless.  If Divine Aura duration was has halved to make it 100% stoneskin it would be a small price to pay as the current form does not scale at all from group to raid.  Would the SF addition to divine aura need to be tweaked to accomadate the change too?

[Buzzing]

OrcSlayer96 wrote:

If Stonewall is kept at the same recast as current and changed to a 3 hit all damage stoneskin, then it would be perfect, changing it to a 1 hit stoneskin and no other options to back it up would keep us still at the back of the line on comabtting the one hot kills.  I also like the extra trigger on Divine favor to replace the small heal of arch heal endline as like many others stated the current arch heal is worthless.  If Divine Aura duration was has halved to make it 100% stoneskin it would be a small price to pay as the current form does not scale at all from group to raid.  Would the SF addition to divine aura need to be tweaked to accomadate the change too?

I think the only other change would be if it was given more then the single trigger increase. If you put two more on it (3 total like bloodletter) you would need to make it not cast in combat as many of the other saves are. Adding one more trigger isn't to big and we give up another end line.

DA would be my prefered path as it would be a boost to the SK as well and though they are in a better position then paladins the ability is broken as it stands when raiding.

[Boli32]

Stonewall: should stay the same

BUT on the herioc tree there is an AA which effects Stonewall / Furor - currently reduces recast by 20%

What they should do is at 10 ranks they should:

- add a SINGLE MAGICAL stoneskin trigger with a 30% max health requirement to Stonewall

and just to make it fair

- add a SINGLE MAGICAL REFLECT to furor (given its recast is about double that of Stonewall and SKs are the more offensive tank.

That wouldn't step on anyones toes and add a NEEDED stoneskin to the paaldin class... it only needs to be magical stoneskin and fits more as the crusader class than pure physcial stoneskin or a stoneskin to work on both. Recast will be 45s at cap.. but more likely to be ~ 50s so its every other AoE (given average 45s recast)

Arch heal should do somethign healing wise... maybe for a short duration 10-15s) every 2min or somethgin massively increase all heals AND wards on the target... less reliable than a pure stoneskin and keeping with the flavour of the paladin class.

[Yimway]

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

Stonewall: should stay the same

BUT on the herioc tree there is an AA which effects Stonewall / Furor - currently reduces recast by 20%

What they should do is at 10 ranks they should:

- add a SINGLE MAGICAL stoneskin trigger with a 30% max health requirement to Stonewall

and just to make it fair

- add a SINGLE MAGICAL REFLECT to furor (given its recast is about double that of Stonewall and SKs are the more offensive tank.

Arch heal should do somethign healing wise... maybe for a short duration 10-15s) every 2min or somethgin massively increase all heals AND wards on the target... less reliable than a pure stoneskin and keeping with the flavour of the paladin class.

I lke this alternative as well.  I really like it if this version of Arch Heal was castable on self or raid friend.

[OrcSlayer96]

I like Boli's ideas also, but it would still be nice to add a extra trigger on Divine Favor in the paladin tree where most paladins only spend 2-3 of 5 points into it(the focus plus reuse % makes it where you normally do not need anymore points).  Toss the extra trigger at 5 points max rank and it would be perfect.

[Buzzing]

That works too.

Thanks Boli

[Maergoth]

I've been frustrated with this thread enough to leave it alone for a day. No dev response, and endless landslides of suggestions.

Suggestions are good, but you have to realize.. balance is in their hands, and specifics are going to change. If you give them something to work with, they're going to assume you're looking after your own class unfairly. They will take your 2 hit stoneskin on a 1:30 recast and bastardize it into a 1 hit stoneskin on a 2 minute recast until an expansion later when it's fixed with a new AA or class focus.

It's much better to point out the shortcomings than suggest changes to fix said shortcomings. They're not going to admit that some part time players know more about class balance than them, which is basically what adopting a player suggested change would do.

On a lighter note, I'd like to thank Boli and Buzzing and a few others for keeping the reins on this for the last page or so of posts.

As for Stonewall, I am all for adding to it, but not removing from it. The idea of a melee block and spell stoneskin in one ability is refreshing.

Seeing the final point in Heroic add a one trigger spell block would be amazing, since no one in their right mind would ever select a few seconds off of one save versus 10% reuse.

Changing it to ONLY be a stoneskin however restricts its uses.. keep in mind, this ability is currently one of the reasons we AREN'T bad at dealing with melee hits. Ditching it would surface a whole slew of new problems.. because these mobs DO melee hard as well.

I don't like the extra trigger on our DI. Call me crazy, but it doesn't give us more rotation potential on saves, just a delay in when we will run out.  Lower reuse on it would be better.

[Darkonx]

Paladins blow right now. There's really no contesting that. The problem is they have the most passive damage reduction in game with their mythical, so it's a fine line to walk in terms of giving spike survivability as well.

First off, Shadowknights have TWO triggers on a DI that can NOT be recast in combat. Any more triggers on your DI would be OP considering the passive damage reduction that Paladins have.

Paladins do need a stoneskin. I'd suggest adding a single trigger stoneskin on a ~3 min recast, similar to a Shadowknights Respite as even a single stoneskin can go a long way to rotating abilitys. Obviously it would be modifiable, so would end up on a 1:40-1:50 recast with reuse calculated.

How the devs want to add it doesn't really matter. Right now a Paladin tanking any mob with a single true one shot AOE, much less two, is amusing.

[Irgun]

Why I like the idea having a stoneskin around connected to archheal, I think it should add something like a huge damagereduction to incoming damage for a short duration + somekind of self-equillibrium if oneshots occur - so: if we are just taking reduced damage we could heal ourselves up + if self-equillibrium-trigger would go off healing us by,  dunno - maybe 65% or so, we could use our heals there too.

So, no stoneskin needed, oneshot-problem solved and a reliable ability where our heals come into play.

All you need is to define the reuse, duration, damage-reduction and heal-trigger to make it fine and balanced.

example:

Reuse: 2mins 30seconds

Duration: 8seconds

Damage reduction: reduces all incoming damage by 50%

Heal-trigger: if the target would take fatal damage it gets healed by 65%

If the reuse should be modifiable or not is another question, I`d say with these numbers: no

[Ufabao]

mythical pet should last for 5 seconds, pops directly on top of the paladin and does not move, if u have a mob targetted when u cast it it uses a 1,000,000 position snap with a 1,000,000,000,000 hate taunt instantly, and casts a standard non-direct aoe prevent on the paladin, if no mob targetted it just gives u the aoe prevent

30 second reuse

make it happen devs.

[Maergoth]

1,000,000 positions might be a little much..

Oh, it was a joke. Hard to tell with this thread, some peoples' concepts of balance are.. wrong.

[Darkonx]

Irgin@Valor wrote:

Why I like the idea having a stoneskin around connected to archheal, I think it should add something like a huge damagereduction to incoming damage for a short duration + somekind of self-equillibrium if oneshots occur - so: if we are just taking reduced damage we could heal ourselves up + if self-equillibrium-trigger would go off healing us by,  dunno - maybe 65% or so, we could use our heals there too.

So, no stoneskin needed, oneshot-problem solved and a reliable ability where our heals come into play.

All you need is to define the reuse, duration, damage-reduction and heal-trigger to make it fine and balanced.

example:

Reuse: 2mins 30seconds

Duration: 8seconds

Damage reduction: reduces all incoming damage by 50%

Heal-trigger: if the target would take fatal damage it gets healed by 65%

If the reuse should be modifiable or not is another question, I`d say with these numbers: no

What's the point of anything else (eg, the damage reduction) if you're immune to death for that time period?

Bad idea. Giving any tank complete death immunity for 8 seconds is OP.