Racial Balance

[Guld_Ulrish]

I hope I can change race then because I dont want to restata a lvl 80 char with 200AAs just cause I want other good traits. And if you give some classes track give us a track iteam too cause there will only be races with track on the pvp server.

[Oakum]

Gungo wrote:

I think he is saying aerilik he would rather have 2 seperate racial trees.1 for tradeskill and 1 for adventuring.This way you dont have to shaft yourself by choosing both.

As it currently lies even with the current racials. Most will simple choose the most adventure oreinted or if its a tradeskill alt the most tradeskill oriented.

If at all possible make the tradeskill racials seperate and give them every 20 levels based on tradeskill level. And make the adventure racials seperate and give them every 10 levels based on adventure level.

I am sure you can get plenty of ideas here for some more tradeskill related AA's.

Lol, that has been ask for for before along with a pure tradeskill related AA tree.

[Barx]

Guld_Ulrish wrote:

I hope I can change race then because I dont want to restata a lvl 80 char with 200AAs just cause I want other good traits. And if you give some classes track give us a track iteam too cause there will only be races with track on the pvp server.

Race change potion will be launching on the marketplace right around the same time as these changes go live.

PVP-wise... I definately see that as an issue, but they have not specifically said how these changes will apply to PVP, it may be that such a trait will be changed to something else for the PVP servers.

[Rainmare]

Is your SK a wood elf? is your SK a gnome?

a gnome would have a natural intricate knowledge to disarm traps, because they naturally tinker. you have to think of it from more then a 'mechanics' perspective. these racial traits are based more on 'lore' then 'mechanics'.

a woodelf would know how to track. they have to. they live in a treetop city in the middle of a massive forest. they have to know how to do it to do natural things like say, hunt for food. not to mention, woodelves naturally follow Tunare, and thus have very strong attachments to the power of Growth, and take care of the forests and those within it like family. can't help animals you can't find.

I mean really which races do you see that have a lore based natural affinity to tracking. I can only think of 2. woodelves and maybe halfelves.

and disarm..which races do we know have a natural affinity to mechanical objects. Gnomes and recently revealed Ratonga.

my concern is that some classes that lorewise fit very well. (High elf Paladin, Iksar Shaman) might find very little in the racials becuase of the 'two package' deal. the bulk fo the Iksar historically were mages and fighters. (warrior, skadowknight, monk, necro, wizard, illy) they only had 1 priest class (shaman ). does that mean they won't get the 'priest' package option? favoring fighter/mage?

there were some races that spaned 3 archtypes, but one was obviously the 'fringe' archtype. for high elves it was thier fighters. Wood elves it was fighters as well. they had high lore numbers of 2 archtypes, then 1 of the others. Iksar had lots of fighters and mages but few on the scout/priest side. woodelves had lots of scouts and priests but few fighters. high elfes were mage/priest heavy, adn again little on the fighter.

I worry that people that picked lore based class/race combos that weren't 'mainstream' for thier race are going to find very little that is helpful in the racials. ie high elf paladin, iksar shaman, barbarian rogue, dwarf rogue...things like that.

or that thier 'primary' choice will become the 'well-rounded' package, which we'll find is pretty much inferior to any of the 'primary' archtypes.

I mean you made a mage/priest combo set. why didn't you just take it the whole way and offer fighter/priest fighter/mage scout/fighter as well?

fighter/mage covers SKs and 'damage minded' paladins

figher/priest covers melee specced priests and paladins that are looking to up thier healing side.

Scout/fighter can be used for racial tradition for races like barbarians/dwarves/gnomes that had established rogue guilds, but thier mainstream talents were fighters/mages (gnomes) fighters/priests. (barbs and dwarves) or for those that had fighters but thier primary jobs were scouts and priests (halflings)

[Golbezz]

Oakum wrote:

LoL, yes, as was brought up. Unique archtype abilities should not be shared. You know, like priests heal/rez  and tanks have defensive stances, and taunting. Wait a minute, scouts can do all that along with FDing like brawlers lol.

Sounds like a case of scouts wanting the only archtype to not share their "class" abilities while they use everyone elses, lol. Oh, yeah, wait a minute, scouts are still the prima donna's, they can use poisons which no other archtype can but can do everything that fighter and priest archtypes can. 

Must be a whole bunch of pvp scouts crying about now, lol.

Seriously though. While I understand the "concerns" of the don't give away our archtype unique abilities away, the scout archtypes can already do all of the fighter and priest "unique" abilities so the point is wasted trying to use it as a reason why non scouts should not be able to track like they  did for years in this games precurser.

I suspect the rogue FD was the easy way out of making a version of the escape type AA rogues had in EQ that removed them from the hate list. No serious raiding rogue will take the int line to get FD as it gives up DPS. Would I care if rogues lost the option to FD? No, I would not as long as it was replaced with some useful rogue type skill.

Poisons aren't exactly the best thing considering rogues and preds are BUYING their DPS that way. If you want to buy your DPS with poisons /feedback it to SoE. I'm sure the alchemists will love you for it.

Dirge rez? It seems many are too busy trying to DPS and the healers end up rezzing anyway. Would any dirges be upset if they didn't have a rez?

If you want to go back to EQ balance I would be all for letting non-scouts track if as a rogue my invis was actually effective in most places, traps were more lethal (as in requiring a scout for group instances) and adding doors that required lock picking.

[Barx]

Golbezz wrote:

Dirge rez? It seems many are too busy trying to DPS and the healers end up rezzing anyway. Would any dirges be upset if they didn't have a rez?

Dirge rez is a HUGE part of the utility there, if you ask me. In my raids, dirges and necros are the main rezzers. Healers should not have to be rezzing in raid, they should be doing what they are there for... healing. So yes, plenty of dirges (and otheres) would be upset if they lost that rez.

[Golbezz]

Rainmare@Oasis wrote:

Is your SK a wood elf? is your SK a gnome?

a gnome would have a natural intricate knowledge to disarm traps, because they naturally tinker. you have to think of it from more then a 'mechanics' perspective. these racial traits are based more on 'lore' then 'mechanics'.

a woodelf would know how to track. they have to. they live in a treetop city in the middle of a massive forest. they have to know how to do it to do natural things like say, hunt for food. not to mention, woodelves naturally follow Tunare, and thus have very strong attachments to the power of Growth, and take care of the forests and those within it like family. can't help animals you can't find.

I mean really which races do you see that have a lore based natural affinity to tracking. I can only think of 2. woodelves and maybe halfelves.

and disarm..which races do we know have a natural affinity to mechanical objects. Gnomes and recently revealed Ratonga.

Lets take the tracking for example, you mention wood and half elves. I would also add kerra and possibly sarnak to that list. Iksar could end up tracking since it would make as much sense in the jungles of kunark as it does in the forests. What about barbarians tracking? It could make sense for them as well as tracking prey in everfrost would have been necessary for survival.

So that original 2 you mentioned for tracking could end up including:Wood ElfHalf ElfKerraSarnakIksarBarbarian

Disarm I would have to agree with just gnome/ratonga as I can't think of any real good reason for other races to care much about tinkering type activities.

I really don't think these skills should be assigned to races though. It has the potential to cause racial balance issues (if you think solo farmers are bad now just wait until they can track) while also making scouts less desired.

[Rijacki]

I'm just hoping my Sarnak bruiser doesn't lose her fire breathing. It's not for the damage I don't want to lose it (though it does give her an extra AoE), it's for the.. umm.. coool factor *chuckle*

[Neskonlith]

Disarm Trap is a useless skill that is no longer needed in-game, so give the Gnomes something that is actually useful!

If an ability as powerful as track is going to be given away as a freebie racial innate, then Gnomes should be given a Tinkered Terminator Tank pet with Harm Touch!

Stop overlooking the Gnomes!

[Kiara]

Alrighty then.  I think I've removed all the nastiness...

Let's not have it creep back into the thread please and thank you.

[aislynn00]

I think you will be seeing less, not more, diversity by forcing two stereotypical ability packages on every given race. 

I, for one, don't see why, say, a high elf is condemned to being an inferior fighter than, for instance, a dwarf.  There is certainly no lore support for it.  The simple fact that most high elves player characters are mages or priests doesn't change that.

On the other hand, it would be just as unfair to shoehorn all the current high elf mages into a race equipped with the priest and fighter packages.

My point being, I don't think it is a good idea to force specific ability packages on all members of a given race.  Let anyone pick abilities freely, I say, but only from two packages per character.  Once you have picked abilities from two different packages, all other packages should be disabled for that character (at least until a respec).

My proposal would guarantee that people picked races based on what they considered interesting or otherwise appealing, not simply min/maxing of combat-relevant stats.

[Andok]

Karnos@Nektulos wrote:

I think you will be seeing less, not more, diversity by forcing two stereotypical ability packages on every given race. 

I, for one, don't see why, say, a high elf is condemned to being an inferior fighter than, for instance, a dwarf.  There is certainly no lore support for it.  The simple fact that most high elves player characters are mages or priests doesn't change that.

On the other hand, it would be just as unfair to shoehorn all the current high elf mages into a race equipped with the priest and fighter packages.

My point being, I don't think it is a good idea to force specific ability packages on all members of a given race.  Let anyone pick abilities freely, I say, but only from two packages per character.  Once you have picked abilities from two different packages, all other packages should be disabled for that character (at least until a respec).

My proposal would guarantee that people picked races based on what they considered interesting or otherwise appealing, not simply min/maxing of combat-relevant stats.

How is every race having the same abilities more interesting?  I’m sorry, but that sounds very dull to me.

[x82nd77]

One question from someone who has 7 ogres... Will be be keeping our Racial Growth spell? 

It seems like you have put much thought into the idea of balancing the races,  and I love the idea of having tracking on non-scout toons seeing as it is VERY useful for us questers (as scouts do not make the best overall soloers). . .

That said - I hate to bring this up but didn't we just have radical racial changes like a year ago? If memory serves me we didn't get a racial respec at that time.

[Xalmat]

Are there still going to be special level 90 Racials like announced at Fan Faire?

[Bratface]

Andok wrote:

Karnos@Nektulos wrote:

I think you will be seeing less, not more, diversity by forcing two stereotypical ability packages on every given race. 

I, for one, don't see why, say, a high elf is condemned to being an inferior fighter than, for instance, a dwarf.  There is certainly no lore support for it.  The simple fact that most high elves player characters are mages or priests doesn't change that.

On the other hand, it would be just as unfair to shoehorn all the current high elf mages into a race equipped with the priest and fighter packages.

My point being, I don't think it is a good idea to force specific ability packages on all members of a given race.  Let anyone pick abilities freely, I say, but only from two packages per character.  Once you have picked abilities from two different packages, all other packages should be disabled for that character (at least until a respec).

My proposal would guarantee that people picked races based on what they considered interesting or otherwise appealing, not simply min/maxing of combat-relevant stats.

How is every race having the same abilities more interesting?  I’m sorry, but that sounds very dull to me.

Actually gving everyone a choice of all choices provides for the most diversity, instead of having certain choices restricted to certain classes you can have any class with any choices, which means more differences between the races since no one will be forced to choose from a small palette of options.

With such an abundance of choices for everyone to choose from the chance of having duplicate choices is reduced. Unlike what we have now with some races always choosing the same options (Dark Elf comes to mind) making all racial choices pretty much the same for every race.

[Aeralik]

Xalmat wrote:

Are there still going to be special level 90 Racials like announced at Fan Faire?

Those are no longer planned because of this change unfortunately.  It works the same way though to give you additional choices now instead of with the expansion.

[Sehk]

Guld_Ulrish wrote:

And if you give some (races) track ... there will only be races with track on the pvp server.

I'd like to echo the above concern.

Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers? If so, then will the above-quoted scenario be prevented, and how?

[Cusashorn]

Rijacki wrote:

I'm just hoping my Sarnak bruiser doesn't lose her fire breathing. It's not for the damage I don't want to lose it (though it does give her an extra AoE), it's for the.. umm.. coool factor *chuckle*

Betray to a monk and you get it as a normal class skill.

[Frizznik]

Sehk wrote:

Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers?

It has.  I don't want to give any major details right now because it is still in progress.  You should be able to see this system on test the middle to end of next week.

[Andok]

Bratface wrote:

Andok wrote:

Karnos@Nektulos wrote:

I think you will be seeing less, not more, diversity by forcing two stereotypical ability packages on every given race. 

I, for one, don't see why, say, a high elf is condemned to being an inferior fighter than, for instance, a dwarf.  There is certainly no lore support for it.  The simple fact that most high elves player characters are mages or priests doesn't change that.

On the other hand, it would be just as unfair to shoehorn all the current high elf mages into a race equipped with the priest and fighter packages.

My point being, I don't think it is a good idea to force specific ability packages on all members of a given race.  Let anyone pick abilities freely, I say, but only from two packages per character.  Once you have picked abilities from two different packages, all other packages should be disabled for that character (at least until a respec).

My proposal would guarantee that people picked races based on what they considered interesting or otherwise appealing, not simply min/maxing of combat-relevant stats.

How is every race having the same abilities more interesting?  I’m sorry, but that sounds very dull to me.

Actually gving everyone a choice of all choices provides for the most diversity, instead of having certain choices restricted to certain classes you can have any class with any choices, which means more differences between the races since no one will be forced to choose from a small palette of options.

With such an abundance of choices for everyone to choose from the chance of having duplicate choices is reduced. Unlike what we have now with some races always choosing the same options (Dark Elf comes to mind) making all racial choices pretty much the same for every race.

While that may be true, diversity is pointless if every race has the same abilities. "Here ya go - you can have your choice of these 19 desserts that look different, but they all taste like vanilla pudding."If the only difference in races is appearance, then you might as well just have one race and make the way races appear as appearance options.Again, that sounds very dull to me.

[Rijacki]

Bratface wrote:

Andok wrote:

Karnos@Nektulos wrote:

I think you will be seeing less, not more, diversity by forcing two stereotypical ability packages on every given race. 

I, for one, don't see why, say, a high elf is condemned to being an inferior fighter than, for instance, a dwarf.  There is certainly no lore support for it.  The simple fact that most high elves player characters are mages or priests doesn't change that.

On the other hand, it would be just as unfair to shoehorn all the current high elf mages into a race equipped with the priest and fighter packages.

My point being, I don't think it is a good idea to force specific ability packages on all members of a given race.  Let anyone pick abilities freely, I say, but only from two packages per character.  Once you have picked abilities from two different packages, all other packages should be disabled for that character (at least until a respec).

My proposal would guarantee that people picked races based on what they considered interesting or otherwise appealing, not simply min/maxing of combat-relevant stats.

How is every race having the same abilities more interesting?  I’m sorry, but that sounds very dull to me.

Actually gving everyone a choice of all choices provides for the most diversity, instead of having certain choices restricted to certain classes you can have any class with any choices, which means more differences between the races since no one will be forced to choose from a small palette of options.

With such an abundance of choices for everyone to choose from the chance of having duplicate choices is reduced. Unlike what we have now with some races always choosing the same options (Dark Elf comes to mind) making all racial choices pretty much the same for every race.

Having ALL options available to ALL races doesn't make them -racial- traits because they would have absolutely no relationship, and connection to the race. They would then be simply character traits.

[Sacra Magice]

I will repeat my concern (and don't answer me with those race tokens they are gonna sell in the marketplace): are we going to have a free race change when this go live? Everytime there has been a major change like this (AAs wise, for example) we got a free respec.If we are not allowed to change our race once (if we want to, maybe with like 10 days to decide or you loose the chance) but at the same time SOE starts selling tokens to change race when these changes go live, I will feel completely cheated and this change will just seem a way SOE though about to earn a few extra bucks making all that wierd (like ogre healer) combinations buy a race token to them.If that's the way SOE is gonna work, it's for sure not the way I like to be treated.

[Gisallo]

Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Tell me Wood Elves get track (which they should have had from the start)! Someone earlier expressed issues with it, such as needing to have it relatively low skill to balance scouts -- I'm fine with that, just so long as racial track has a reasonable enough radius and a fair enough reuse (ie not 30 minutes in between uses).

I'm also glad to have you back. You were one of the better Devs back in the day (and helped fix up Tradeskills in your relatively brief time there). And much kudos for the presentation on the revamp, we absolutely love getting info like this in advance of things actually changing.

I see NO problem with some races just getting straight up track at full level.  My first too and always my main in my heart is  ranger.  That said Scouts already can do lots.  You have scouts that can manage aggro as well as tanks through taunts and other abilities.  You have scouts that can feign death, scouts that can heal and scouts that can rez, scouts that have control effects.  Hello pot calling kettle?

Tracking is something that is marginal outside of soloing at low levels to the point its almost a fluff ability.  ALso once you get to higher levels disarm was only useful once you had traps in instances again.  After you get past level 50 how many people die to chests? 

[Bookbunny]

Frizznik wrote:

Sehk wrote:

Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers?

It has.  I don't want to give any major details right now because it is still in progress.  You should be able to see this system on test the middle to end of next week.

My suggestion would be that racial tracking only work for tracking NPCs.  If you want to track players then roll a scout.

[Bratface]

Rijacki wrote:

Bratface wrote:

Andok wrote:

Karnos@Nektulos wrote:

I think you will be seeing less, not more, diversity by forcing two stereotypical ability packages on every given race. 

I, for one, don't see why, say, a high elf is condemned to being an inferior fighter than, for instance, a dwarf.  There is certainly no lore support for it.  The simple fact that most high elves player characters are mages or priests doesn't change that.

On the other hand, it would be just as unfair to shoehorn all the current high elf mages into a race equipped with the priest and fighter packages.

My point being, I don't think it is a good idea to force specific ability packages on all members of a given race.  Let anyone pick abilities freely, I say, but only from two packages per character.  Once you have picked abilities from two different packages, all other packages should be disabled for that character (at least until a respec).

My proposal would guarantee that people picked races based on what they considered interesting or otherwise appealing, not simply min/maxing of combat-relevant stats.

How is every race having the same abilities more interesting?  I’m sorry, but that sounds very dull to me.

Actually gving everyone a choice of all choices provides for the most diversity, instead of having certain choices restricted to certain classes you can have any class with any choices, which means more differences between the races since no one will be forced to choose from a small palette of options.

With such an abundance of choices for everyone to choose from the chance of having duplicate choices is reduced. Unlike what we have now with some races always choosing the same options (Dark Elf comes to mind) making all racial choices pretty much the same for every race.

Having ALL options available to ALL races doesn't make them -racial- traits because they would have absolutely no relationship, and connection to the race. They would then be simply character traits.

My point was simply that more choices means more diversity, not less.

I never said I wanted them all opened to everyone (I don't care either way), I just said that doing so is not going to make everyone the same, it would be the opposite in fact, it would provide more ways for characters to be different.

[Cusashorn]

Bookbunny wrote:

Frizznik wrote:

Sehk wrote:

Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers?

It has.  I don't want to give any major details right now because it is still in progress.  You should be able to see this system on test the middle to end of next week.

My suggestion would be that racial tracking only work for tracking NPCs.  If you want to track players then roll a scout.

Or maybe they could just outright disable tracking on the PVP servers or something.

I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud without really caring one way or another how they do it, since I don't play PVP.

Back to the combat issue: that's the whole point. they need to make sure that no race actually gets any advantage in COMBAT for being that race. If they give everyone 19 choices, and of those 19 choices, getting say... +2 DA/Crit is available for ALL RACES, then that is equality in combat. It would become that player's choice to take it or not, and not get shoehorned into having it, making them feel inferior to other races. That way, they don't have to buy a race change potion just to become a superior race.

There can still be racial individualities... just as long as none of them are individual to combat itself.

That archetype thing though.. Us Humans better be able to choose from all 4. From a lore perspective, there's no archetype we've never been out of place with.

I like vanilla pudding, btw.

[Golbezz]

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

I see NO problem with some races just getting straight up track at full level.  My first too and always my main in my heart is  ranger.  That said Scouts already can do lots.  You have scouts that can manage aggro as well as tanks through taunts and other abilities.  You have scouts that can feign death, scouts that can heal and scouts that can rez, scouts that have control effects.  Hello pot calling kettle?

Tracking is something that is marginal outside of soloing at low levels to the point its almost a fluff ability.  ALso once you get to higher levels disarm was only useful once you had traps in instances again.  After you get past level 50 how many people die to chests? 

It's only a fluff ability until any non-scout can use it for named hunting. Other than tracking and disarming traps, what can a scout do that no other classes can do?

Evac? -  Nope, other classes get it.Hate transfer? - Other classes have this too.Self/group invis? - Sorry, try again.Movement speed buffs? - Druid/Shaman have speed buffsFeign Death? Brawlers, SK, Necro can all do this too as well as any higher level tinkerer.Pick pocket? Any ratonga can already do this.

So looking at what scouts do you will see that the scout archetype is a collection of many different skills with really only a few skills that are scout only. Giving away these few skills that are currently scout only is damaging to the scout archetype since a scout is no longer needed to provide these skills. A healer is still needed to keep the group alive, a tank is still needed to hold aggro and mages are still the best AoE dps.

None of this should be changed. How many healers would be happy if bards were given a heal song that made them as good as any average healer? How many fighters would be happy if mages were given magical shield spells to take hits better than a fighter? How many mages would be happy if a healer was out DPS'ing them?

Keep exclusive scout abilities as scout only and do the same for other archetypes.

[MrWolfie]

Bratface wrote:

My point was simply that more choices means more diversity, not less.

Correct.If all assassins are better off as Dark Elves then almost every assassin is going to be a Dark Elf. That does nothing to promote racial diversity in Norrath.1. INHERENT TRAITS.I think we need inherent traits, which are immediately unlocked at level 1, to add racial identity and uniqueness to the races of Norrath. But we don't need a lot; three, pretty much like we already have. But common sense must prevail when gifting these inherent traits. For example: no race without wings would be able to glide or "feather-fall" - there never was lore for any type of elf being able to levitate, glide or feather-fall because of their race, not in EQ2 nor any fantasy fiction - so only Fae and Arasai should get that skill as a Racial Trait. Some races will get extra speed, some may get tracking, some may get both! Some may get sneak or hide...etc. Anyway, all races should get some abilities which are inherent, specific and relatively unique to that race.2. RACIAL CHOICE.After those initial abilities, all other racial abilities should be chosen from two tables: Adventuring and Tradeskill. A completely free choice from all the abilities available should be dependant only on the character's level in that particular field (Adventuring or Tradeskill). You'd be able to choose a new one, much like you do now but from ALL the traits, without any pre-requisites. Both sets of traits should remain independant. No-one should be worrying about losing points or abilities in their Adventuring traits because they also happen to be a Tradeskiller.There is no reason a Rat (or an Erudite) cannot be a fighter and pick abilites which suit. This is training. It's what allows the races of Earth the possibility to excel at whatever they want. Anyone can be a doctor, an engineer, a stage magician, a dancer, a master of martial arts. Body size, shape and even disability is no restriction to high achievement with any ability or ambition.We should not arbitrarily impose restrictions on High Elves, Kerrans, Frogloks or any race of Norrath. Equal Opportunities for all the races!!

[Cyliena]

Aeralik wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

Deson wrote:

First off welcome back!

Why are Tradeskills not innates? There is no way a tradeskiller can gain traits unless that is changing and while nice, thus far the traits don't carry over trade to trade;unlike adventuring, tradeskill traits are very profession specific.

Are you giving a unique trait to each race? Your innates read like you are.

Looks good prelim but hard to judge without seeing.

We can take a look into using the higher of tradeskill or adventure level.  It definitely makes sense with the two all purpose tradeskill choices you have now anyways.  No promises there but its definitely something we can discuss and it would be quick to update.

This is now completed and ready for gu53.  We will just take the higher of the two for racial traditions.  The rest of the window is still based on adventurer level though.

Ok, I'm pretty sure I understand this, but at the same time my mind wants to be befuddled by it. From what I see, because my Swashy/Tailor is level 80 in Tailor, but only level 79 in Swashy, I will be forced to have tradeskill innates over adventuring innates?

[Korven]

Cyliena@Everfrost wrote:

Ok, I'm pretty sure I understand this, but at the same time my mind wants to be befuddled by it. From what I see, because my Swashy/Tailor is level 80 in Tailor, but only level 79 in Swashy, I will be forced to have tradeskill innates over adventuring innates?

No, there is no seperation between the adventuring and tradeskill traits, this change means that now you'll be able to select 8 traits at 79 because of your TS 80 instead of the usual 7.