Wizard/Warlock Aggro Transfer - Page 3

SalBlu · 09-07-2006, 03:54 PM

Just so you all know, this spell is 2% transfer at Adept III, not 3%. I also tested this out thoroughly last night in our Lyceum raid and the transfer is pathetic.

1) It will not stack with other Sorceror transfer spells. YES, this means that a Wizard and a Warlock cannot put the spell on the same person.

2) I had a Troubador and Pally Ammends on me last night, parsing about 1200-1300 damage and was steal pulling aggro if I let loose. I was only able to cast Fusion twice in the zone having allowed a good 30+ seconds of hate gain only to draw aggro on a 22k+ crit, and die in one swat. After those deaths I gave up on the spell for the zone. Yes i was using Concussive and Cease as well and it was not helping.

3) Our Warlock had just as many deaths last night as any other night. Her 2% transfer to the main tank didnt help worth beans.

2% at Adept III is a frickin joke.

IllusiveThoughts · 09-07-2006, 06:32 PM

SalBluee wrote:

Just so you all know, this spell is 2% transfer at Adept III, not 3%. I also tested this out thoroughly last night in our Lyceum raid and the transfer is pathetic.

1) It will not stack with other Sorceror transfer spells. YES, this means that a Wizard and a Warlock cannot put the spell on the same person.

2) I had a Troubador and Pally Ammends on me last night, parsing about 1200-1300 damage and was steal pulling aggro if I let loose. I was only able to cast Fusion twice in the zone having allowed a good 30+ seconds of hate gain only to draw aggro on a 22k+ crit, and die in one swat. After those deaths I gave up on the spell for the zone. Yes i was using Concussive and Cease as well and it was not helping.

3) Our Warlock had just as many deaths last night as any other night. Her 2% transfer to the main tank didnt help worth beans.

2% at Adept III is a frickin joke.

so far it seems this does not stack with amends, another wizard tested this in the forums and for what ever reason accord when placed on a fighter cancelles amends's hate siphon.

also debuff's were ninja boosted wizards with m1 rending icicles got about a 18% boost in dps (previously buff gave 5.5% boost now it gives roughly 23% boost.)

Oakum · 09-07-2006, 07:15 PM

As I have read this thread and from observations of friends and guild wizards and talking to them, I believe sorcerers do have an aggro problem and 3 percent more may not do anything to fix it.

From what I have seen though, the problem is that the big nukes/dots are too much at one time if cast too early. A 10 or 30 thousand point nuke or dot before the tank has built up that much hate doesn't work and the small nukes don't do enough damage by themselves unless very well played to place sorcerers above other raid T-1 DPS like assasins and summoners. Assassins have a good hate transfer which lets them use their bigger attacks as they come up and summoners damage is in low enough increments that the tank can keep up with the hate if they hold back a little at the beginning normally.

Now IF sorcerors should be above all others in raid damage parses, and that is a really big if since rangers who are supposed to be T1 also and have to buy their dps with poisons and arrows are generally below them now, then I see two ways of fixing it.

1) Bigger hate transfer.

2) smaller big nukes and bigger small nukes so that they can just hold back some like summoners do in the start of a fight and not pull aggro with too much instant hate with their big nukes/dots. Bigger "small" nukes would up the over all damage.

The problem with hate transfer has been listed as basically meaning the tank would never be in danger of lose aggro if its big enough to help with the perceived agro problem. That the dev's have long stated should never happen. All dps classes should have to watch their aggro to some extent. The assasin will not use their biggest attack as the first attack and expect the tank to keep aggro and the conjurer can plane shift at the start of a named fight. Sorcerers should not be able to fire off their big nuke/dot at the start of the fight or go all out the whole time and expect not to get aggro.

With the last in mind, the best answer to your problem may be number two with a rescaling of the damaging in the nukes/dots. Then only two classes would have to be changed and not every class that has a hate tranfer/reducer ect.

Of course some people like the "coolness factor" of a 10 or 30 thousand point and would rather lose some overall dps then have it reduced. Some do play sorcerers cause they consider them to be fun and not just to be the only number one on a raid parse.

Not saying that is the case of all those who posted here so don't get me wrong. Wardens can be out DPS'ed by Defilers, Inquisitors and Fury's and according to the tier structure wardens are supposed to be equal to Fury's and above the other priest and needs to be adjusted too but I don't think it will ever be done. I like being a warden even with that imbalance and would like to see it fixed and I am sure most sorcerers are the same with the aggro problem.

wizard · 09-08-2006, 02:47 AM

just a side note: if a warlock/wizzy try to duo with a paladin, the new buff doesnt stack with amends, henceforth, you cant equip the buff anymore on the pally, since amends > 3%

Message Edited by wizardpc on 09-07-2006 03:47 PM

Pins · 09-08-2006, 06:07 PM

wizardpc wrote:
just a side note: if a warlock/wizzy try to duo with a paladin, the new buff doesnt stack with amends, henceforth, you cant equip the buff anymore on the pally, since amends > 3%
Message Edited by wizardpc on 09-07-2006 03:47 PM

Welcome to stacking multiple hate transfers = broken since LU13.

MilkToa · 09-08-2006, 06:52 PM

Pinski wrote:

wizardpc wrote:
just a side note:

if a warlock/wizzy try to duo with a paladin, the new buff doesnt stack with amends, henceforth, you cant equip the buff anymore on the pally, since amends > 3%

Message Edited by wizardpc on 09-07-2006 03:47 PM

Welcome to stacking multiple hate transfers = broken since LU13.

SOE obviously knew this but still gave it to sorcerers just compounding the problem. This just seems like the wrong way to deal with the aggro problem.

Splatterpunk28 · 09-12-2006, 04:27 PM

Oakum wrote:
Now IF sorcerors should be above all others in raid damage parses, and that is a really big if since rangers who are supposed to be T1 also and have to buy their dps with poisons and arrows are generally below them now, then I see two ways of fixing it. Ranger and Assassin imbalanced dps is a separate issue altogether. Everyone knows the famous dps pyramid laid out by MG and it was Wizard/Warlock, Ranger/Assasin in T1.
1) Bigger hate transfer.
-I'm not sure this is the ideal answer, but if this is their only solution or 'quick fix' -- it does need to be much more.

2) smaller big nukes and bigger small nukes so that they can just hold back some like summoners do in the start of a fight and not pull aggro with too much instant hate with their big nukes/dots. Bigger "small" nukes would up the over all damage.
-I don't think this is the answer. We are burst dps, just as rangers/assassins are burst dps. They have better hate transfers than we do so it isn't about changing up how we deal dps, the problem is how we can manage it. I think #1 or #3 are the better choices.
3) Change up our concussive, vulian and boon lines so that it is in balance with other high dps classes as far as transferring and/or just evading hate. There should be a buff that's useful for the tank (better version of boon), a buff maybe for us (make concussive a self buff or a longer duration spell similar to corrupt gift/netherous realm) and a short nuke type of de-aggro (better version of vulian).
Wardens can be out DPS'ed by Defilers, Inquisitors and Fury's and according to the tier structure wardens are supposed to be equal to Fury's and above the other priest and needs to be adjusted too but I don't think it will ever be done. I like being a warden even with that imbalance and would like to see it fixed and I am sure most sorcerers are the same with the aggro problem.
I understand that is imbalanced and unfair, but that isn't even comparable. A Warden's main function is to heal, those are secondary imbalances. Our main goal is to be dps, that's our primary reason to be invited to raids/groups. A better comparison would be that without the proper classes to fix how broke you are, a Warden can be out healed by a Paladin. So, yeah, that's a joke.

Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on 09-12-2006 06:47 AM

Ri · 09-13-2006, 09:14 AM

I haven't actually seen anyone do a side-by-side of who has what, so thought I'd put one together. . .unfortunatly I wanted to compare Master Is to Master Is, but was unable to find screenshots. If someone could provide the numbers with the recast times, would help out.Wiz:Cease:Anomalism: 3% Aggro TransferConcussive: 1470 - 2450 every 25sWarlock:Vulian Nullification:Boon of the Damned: 3% Aggro TransferConcussive: 1470 - 2450 every 25sAssassin:Surveillance: 1776 - 1960 every 30sElude: 960 - 1600 every 20sMurderous Design: 29% Aggro TransferPoison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line) : 15% chance to proc -1203 hate (Grandmasters Ignorant Bliss)Concealment : -40% Hate Gain for 7s every 1 minRanger:Surveillance: 1776 - 1960 every 30sElude: 960 - 1600 every 20sPrimal Agility: Decreases Hate Gain by 41%Poison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line): 15% chance to proc -1203 hate (Grandmasters Ignorant Bliss)These are all the spells that these classes have to directly lose aggro. Spells are in order that correspond to their sister classes spell (eg: Anomalism/Boon of the Damned). In addition to these, Rangers have Confounding Arrow which increases the hate gain of the next person hit (+30% for 10seconds every 30s) as well as Hawk Dive which siphons hate from every non-fighter in the group (Hate increase not listed on the spell).Maybe this'll help put things a little better into order of where each class stands.Edit: Removed Mail of Frost and Nullmail from list as these no longer reduce aggro. Added Concealment for assassins. Added numbers for scout spells and mage spells.

Message Edited by Rish on 09-13-2006 02:19 AM

IllusiveThoughts · 09-13-2006, 10:13 AM

Rish wrote:
I haven't actually seen anyone do a side-by-side of who has what, so thought I'd put one together. . .unfortunatly I wanted to compare Master Is to Master Is, but was unable to find screenshots. If someone could provide the numbers with the recast times, would help out.

Wiz:
Cease
Anomalism
Concussive

Warlock:
Vulian Nullification
Boon of the Damned
Concussive

Assassin:
Surveillance
Elude
Murderous Design
Poison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line)

concealment

Ranger:
Surveillance
Elude
Primal Agility
Poison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line)

These are all the spells that these classes have to directly lose aggro. Spells are in order that correspond to their sister classes spell (eg: Anomalism/Boon of the Damned). In addition to these, Wizards have Mail of Frost and Warlocks have Nullmail. According to the spell description, aggro is lost when hit. Rangers have Confounding Arrow which increases the hate gain of the next person hit as well as Hawk Dive which siphons hate from every non-fighter in the group.

Maybe this'll help put things a little better into order of where each class stands.

mail of frost no longer de-agro's. that was changed a few lu's ago.

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 09-12-2006 11:14 PM

09-07-2006, 06:32 PM	#62
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	SalBluee wrote: Just so you all know, this spell is 2% transfer at Adept III, not 3%. I also tested this out thoroughly last night in our Lyceum raid and the transfer is pathetic. 1) It will not stack with other Sorceror transfer spells. YES, this means that a Wizard and a Warlock cannot put the spell on the same person. 2) I had a Troubador and Pally Ammends on me last night, parsing about 1200-1300 damage and was steal pulling aggro if I let loose. I was only able to cast Fusion twice in the zone having allowed a good 30+ seconds of hate gain only to draw aggro on a 22k+ crit, and die in one swat. After those deaths I gave up on the spell for the zone. Yes i was using Concussive and Cease as well and it was not helping. 3) Our Warlock had just as many deaths last night as any other night. Her 2% transfer to the main tank didnt help worth beans. 2% at Adept III is a frickin joke. so far it seems this does not stack with amends, another wizard tested this in the forums and for what ever reason accord when placed on a fighter cancelles amends's hate siphon. also debuff's were ninja boosted wizards with m1 rending icicles got about a 18% boost in dps (previously buff gave 5.5% boost now it gives roughly 23% boost.) __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.

09-07-2006, 07:15 PM	#63
Oakum Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,441	As I have read this thread and from observations of friends and guild wizards and talking to them, I believe sorcerers do have an aggro problem and 3 percent more may not do anything to fix it. From what I have seen though, the problem is that the big nukes/dots are too much at one time if cast too early. A 10 or 30 thousand point nuke or dot before the tank has built up that much hate doesn't work and the small nukes don't do enough damage by themselves unless very well played to place sorcerers above other raid T-1 DPS like assasins and summoners. Assassins have a good hate transfer which lets them use their bigger attacks as they come up and summoners damage is in low enough increments that the tank can keep up with the hate if they hold back a little at the beginning normally. Now IF sorcerors should be above all others in raid damage parses, and that is a really big if since rangers who are supposed to be T1 also and have to buy their dps with poisons and arrows are generally below them now, then I see two ways of fixing it. 1) Bigger hate transfer. 2) smaller big nukes and bigger small nukes so that they can just hold back some like summoners do in the start of a fight and not pull aggro with too much instant hate with their big nukes/dots. Bigger "small" nukes would up the over all damage. The problem with hate transfer has been listed as basically meaning the tank would never be in danger of lose aggro if its big enough to help with the perceived agro problem. That the dev's have long stated should never happen. All dps classes should have to watch their aggro to some extent. The assasin will not use their biggest attack as the first attack and expect the tank to keep aggro and the conjurer can plane shift at the start of a named fight. Sorcerers should not be able to fire off their big nuke/dot at the start of the fight or go all out the whole time and expect not to get aggro. With the last in mind, the best answer to your problem may be number two with a rescaling of the damaging in the nukes/dots. Then only two classes would have to be changed and not every class that has a hate tranfer/reducer ect. Of course some people like the "coolness factor" of a 10 or 30 thousand point and would rather lose some overall dps then have it reduced. Some do play sorcerers cause they consider them to be fun and not just to be the only number one on a raid parse. Not saying that is the case of all those who posted here so don't get me wrong. Wardens can be out DPS'ed by Defilers, Inquisitors and Fury's and according to the tier structure wardens are supposed to be equal to Fury's and above the other priest and needs to be adjusted too but I don't think it will ever be done. I like being a warden even with that imbalance and would like to see it fixed and I am sure most sorcerers are the same with the aggro problem. __________________

09-08-2006, 06:07 PM	#65
Pins General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,040	wizardpc wrote: just a side note: if a warlock/wizzy try to duo with a paladin, the new buff doesnt stack with amends, henceforth, you cant equip the buff anymore on the pally, since amends > 3% Message Edited by wizardpc on 09-07-2006 03:47 PM Welcome to stacking multiple hate transfers = broken since LU13. __________________ Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Dissolution on Nektulos Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Confirmed on Unrest

09-08-2006, 06:52 PM	#66
MilkToa General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Pinski wrote: wizardpc wrote: just a side note: if a warlock/wizzy try to duo with a paladin, the new buff doesnt stack with amends, henceforth, you cant equip the buff anymore on the pally, since amends > 3% Message Edited by wizardpc on 09-07-2006 03:47 PM Welcome to stacking multiple hate transfers = broken since LU13. SOE obviously knew this but still gave it to sorcerers just compounding the problem. This just seems like the wrong way to deal with the aggro problem.

09-12-2006, 04:27 PM	#67
Splatterpunk28 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 447	Oakum wrote: Now IF sorcerors should be above all others in raid damage parses, and that is a really big if since rangers who are supposed to be T1 also and have to buy their dps with poisons and arrows are generally below them now, then I see two ways of fixing it. Ranger and Assassin imbalanced dps is a separate issue altogether. Everyone knows the famous dps pyramid laid out by MG and it was Wizard/Warlock, Ranger/Assasin in T1. 1) Bigger hate transfer. -I'm not sure this is the ideal answer, but if this is their only solution or 'quick fix' -- it does need to be much more. 2) smaller big nukes and bigger small nukes so that they can just hold back some like summoners do in the start of a fight and not pull aggro with too much instant hate with their big nukes/dots. Bigger "small" nukes would up the over all damage. -I don't think this is the answer. We are burst dps, just as rangers/assassins are burst dps. They have better hate transfers than we do so it isn't about changing up how we deal dps, the problem is how we can manage it. I think #1 or #3 are the better choices. 3) Change up our concussive, vulian and boon lines so that it is in balance with other high dps classes as far as transferring and/or just evading hate. There should be a buff that's useful for the tank (better version of boon), a buff maybe for us (make concussive a self buff or a longer duration spell similar to corrupt gift/netherous realm) and a short nuke type of de-aggro (better version of vulian). Wardens can be out DPS'ed by Defilers, Inquisitors and Fury's and according to the tier structure wardens are supposed to be equal to Fury's and above the other priest and needs to be adjusted too but I don't think it will ever be done. I like being a warden even with that imbalance and would like to see it fixed and I am sure most sorcerers are the same with the aggro problem. I understand that is imbalanced and unfair, but that isn't even comparable. A Warden's main function is to heal, those are secondary imbalances. Our main goal is to be dps, that's our primary reason to be invited to raids/groups. A better comparison would be that without the proper classes to fix how broke you are, a Warden can be out healed by a Paladin. So, yeah, that's a joke. Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on 09-12-2006 06:47 AM

09-07-2006, 03:54 PM	#61
SalBlu Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 439	Just so you all know, this spell is 2% transfer at Adept III, not 3%. I also tested this out thoroughly last night in our Lyceum raid and the transfer is pathetic. 1) It will not stack with other Sorceror transfer spells. YES, this means that a Wizard and a Warlock cannot put the spell on the same person. 2) I had a Troubador and Pally Ammends on me last night, parsing about 1200-1300 damage and was steal pulling aggro if I let loose. I was only able to cast Fusion twice in the zone having allowed a good 30+ seconds of hate gain only to draw aggro on a 22k+ crit, and die in one swat. After those deaths I gave up on the spell for the zone. Yes i was using Concussive and Cease as well and it was not helping. 3) Our Warlock had just as many deaths last night as any other night. Her 2% transfer to the main tank didnt help worth beans. 2% at Adept III is a frickin joke.

09-08-2006, 02:47 AM	#64
wizard Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 11	just a side note: if a warlock/wizzy try to duo with a paladin, the new buff doesnt stack with amends, henceforth, you cant equip the buff anymore on the pally, since amends > 3% Message Edited by wizardpc on 09-07-2006 03:47 PM

09-13-2006, 09:14 AM	#68
Ri General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 154	I haven't actually seen anyone do a side-by-side of who has what, so thought I'd put one together. . .unfortunatly I wanted to compare Master Is to Master Is, but was unable to find screenshots. If someone could provide the numbers with the recast times, would help out.Wiz:Cease:Anomalism: 3% Aggro TransferConcussive: 1470 - 2450 every 25sWarlock:Vulian Nullification:Boon of the Damned: 3% Aggro TransferConcussive: 1470 - 2450 every 25sAssassin:Surveillance: 1776 - 1960 every 30sElude: 960 - 1600 every 20sMurderous Design: 29% Aggro TransferPoison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line) : 15% chance to proc -1203 hate (Grandmasters Ignorant Bliss)Concealment : -40% Hate Gain for 7s every 1 minRanger:Surveillance: 1776 - 1960 every 30sElude: 960 - 1600 every 20sPrimal Agility: Decreases Hate Gain by 41%Poison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line): 15% chance to proc -1203 hate (Grandmasters Ignorant Bliss)These are all the spells that these classes have to directly lose aggro. Spells are in order that correspond to their sister classes spell (eg: Anomalism/Boon of the Damned). In addition to these, Rangers have Confounding Arrow which increases the hate gain of the next person hit (+30% for 10seconds every 30s) as well as Hawk Dive which siphons hate from every non-fighter in the group (Hate increase not listed on the spell).Maybe this'll help put things a little better into order of where each class stands.Edit: Removed Mail of Frost and Nullmail from list as these no longer reduce aggro. Added Concealment for assassins. Added numbers for scout spells and mage spells. Message Edited by Rish on 09-13-2006 02:19 AM

09-13-2006, 10:13 AM	#69
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	Rish wrote: I haven't actually seen anyone do a side-by-side of who has what, so thought I'd put one together. . .unfortunatly I wanted to compare Master Is to Master Is, but was unable to find screenshots. If someone could provide the numbers with the recast times, would help out. Wiz: Cease Anomalism Concussive Warlock: Vulian Nullification Boon of the Damned Concussive Assassin: Surveillance Elude Murderous Design Poison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line) *concealment* Ranger: Surveillance Elude Primal Agility Poison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line) These are all the spells that these classes have to directly lose aggro. Spells are in order that correspond to their sister classes spell (eg: Anomalism/Boon of the Damned). In addition to these, Wizards have Mail of Frost and Warlocks have Nullmail. According to the spell description, aggro is lost when hit. Rangers have Confounding Arrow which increases the hate gain of the next person hit as well as Hawk Dive which siphons hate from every non-fighter in the group. Maybe this'll help put things a little better into order of where each class stands. mail of frost no longer de-agro's. that was changed a few lu's ago. Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 09-12-2006 11:14 PM __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.