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12-03-2004, 12:00 AM
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#61 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 11
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This thread is quite entertaining. It has inspired me to get out of my healing routine and try something different. I never really used SS like many of the posters have suggested. I'm defently to experiment and come to my own conclusion on this subject. One thing I know from experience is, if you are melee'n and several orange++ mobs aggro on you and pull of a riposte or heroic opportunity, your dead. The tank can taunt them off you.. but multiple mobs just need to hit you once to kill you. Melee'n without the proper aggro buildup - against oranges is asking for death.
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Keegan Kegstalker Inquisistor 47th Level Permafrost Server |
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12-03-2004, 12:02 AM
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#62 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 9
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You guys arguing just to be right at this point because you're both saying roughly the same thing. And let us not through out the my char is bigger than your char. We're all newbs, and everyone here is a probably a EQ1 and MMO vet. - No need for handwaving. 1 - We all rather just have 1 healer in the group, two is safer, but i'd rather have DPS / Bard / Chanter than another heal if i can help it. 2 - SS lets us be more man efficient, too bad the cast time and cycle time is long. 3 - If you're find using only using BoV, Mark of Pawns and a single combat heal is fine. That's great, the mobs aren't hitting your tank so hard that BoV can't keep up. 4- There are times with BoV, Mark and a CH doesn't cut it because your tank is being hit too hard. pull out your other stackable re-active rather than chain cast heals. 3 - None of us are stupid enough to cast SS when the tanks about to go down. We'll use a arch or a combat heal. 4 - Using BoV + SS can give you the time to debuff and recast SS instead of having to spam combat and Arch. And we've all established that SS is more efficent than both Combat and Arch at this point. 5 - You can make decisions on your feet, there's been more than enough times that i've broken various spells, arch to combat or SS to a quick combat in order to react to real world effects. The facts are that SS is mana efficient. End of argument. If you can find time to cast it, fantastic! ie Before the pull when it doesn't matter. Can you cast it mid-fight? Well perhaps now that you've stacked at before the pull you have time to , if you didn't well perhaps you're too busy spamming combat heals to be able to do so. Toesa
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12-03-2004, 12:04 AM
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#63 |
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Posts: 212
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12-03-2004, 12:05 AM
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#64 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 184
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I don't think you can riposte a mob unless it is already hitting you to begin with right? Also, priests don't have much chance to finish off an HO in a fight(at least aggro pulling HO's), unless it is something like Ancient Demise, which is very rare. I fight against ^^ oranges+ all the time, and I have never ever been able to pull agg from the tank with just my weak melee hits, unless of course you aren't assisting the tank....
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12-03-2004, 12:20 AM
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#65 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 11
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I don't think you can riposte a mob unless it is already hitting you to begin with right? Also, priests don't have much chance to finish off an HO in a fight(at least aggro pulling HO's), unless it is something like Ancient Demise, which is very rare. I fight against ^^ oranges+ all the time, and I have never ever been able to pull agg from the tank with just my weak melee hits, unless of course you aren't assisting the tank.... My post could have been clearer - I meant to say when the mobs riposte or HO on you. My tank can be doing an excellent job - but once in a while the mobs turn on me if I'm melee'n (after casting all debuffs and multiple heals). After a few deaths and close calls I stopped melee'n on yellow++ and harder. Is this part of the AI or am I or someone in my group doing something wrong?
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Keegan Kegstalker Inquisistor 47th Level Permafrost Server |
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12-03-2004, 12:21 AM
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#66 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 149
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Exactly. This is especially true if some of your dps are casters and not rogues. For example, Guardian, assassin, wizard, necromancer. Now, do you add 2 healers to that group, knowing that, if the tank dies it's a guaranteed wipe, or do you add 1 healer and a monk/zerk/bruiser so you at least have a chance of pulling it out?
Yes.
Mark of Pawns? Ugh, what an awful spell. Have you ever gotten it to be useful? I've not done much testing on it at all after seeing the pitiful amount it healed and how seldom it did it. I typically just use BoV and CH, and CH only as a filler. For example, I drop BoV on the tank and he's STILL dropping in hp, though the BoV hasn't spent out yet, so casting another BoV is a waste and casting SS would take too long. That means he's taking HARD hits and the BoV can't keep up, so I tap him with a CH then immediately hit the BoV again.
Absolutely. Chain-casting directs is a huge waste of mana.
Arch takes almost as long as SS, at least for me. And I've been in groups where there's been a wipeout because the healer insisted on using SS as it was the most efficient heal. Given we were all dead, including him, I questioned his definition of "efficient".
I think I disagree with that last bit. Given that SS will only heal a part of a hit, and let the rest through, taking the time to cast SS may not be the best solution, as it's possible for a tank to die and still have SS left over. If the tank is taking 400hp hits quickly, SS will only heal 87 of each of those and let the rest through, so in 3 hits the guy is taking 939hp dmg. My CH's heal for 300+ now I believe, and I can get near 3 of them off in the time it takes me to cast SS, so of the 1200 coming at him, he only takes 300 of it. Granted, I'm pouring mana on the floor like I don't care, but there are situations where CH is actually better than SS...again, when you take time as a factor.
Exactly.
Agreed.
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__________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth. |
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12-03-2004, 12:23 AM
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#67 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 149
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Never engage from the front, alwas from behind. First, most mobs past 20 use barrage, which is aoe cone off their nose, so just standing there, fighting or not, can kill you. Second, and I could be wrong, riposte can not fire from behind. I know I'm never riposted and only take damage if I steal the agro with a particularly vicious HO or debuff. Never fight face to face with the mob in a group, always stand behind the dps guys at the mob's rear.
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__________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth. |
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12-03-2004, 12:42 AM
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#68 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 212
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You are correct riposte only hit you from the front. |
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12-03-2004, 12:51 AM
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#69 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 184
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"My post could have been clearer - I meant to say when the mobs riposte or HO on you. My tank can be doing an excellent job - but once in a while the mobs turn on me if I'm melee'n (after casting all debuffs and multiple heals). After a few deaths and close calls I stopped melee'n on yellow++ and harder. Is this part of the AI or am I or someone in my group doing something wrong?" Well, melee itself will have little to no effect on the mob you are fighting unless your tank isn't taunting AND you are somehow outdamaging him with your melee. The main thing you need to focus on are that debuffs draw lots of agg, more so than heals. Forced submission is the biggest agg magnet of them all, so normal you won't want to cast this until you see the tank taunt 2+ times, unless you just don't mind tanking a few hits, or even the whole fight, which most Inquisitors have the AC to do, granted you have a second healer because interupts might well get you killed without backup. The other debuffs combined probably draw the same agg as 1 forced submission, so you might just need to be more careful with the speed of your debuff casting. I find that 2 or more taunts from the tank is enough to keep the agg off if you want to throw down all the debuffs, but it could depend on what skill lvl (app or adept) that your tank's taunts are. Heals will also draw agg, but if your tank is focused on a single mob, you won't have to worry. Any adds, and the extra mobs in a group encounter will be more keen on your healing however, so if you are afraid of taking a few hits, you may want to wait till the tank group taunts before you spam heal. The main staple of the Cleric line of priests is that we can take hits when need be. Druid's supposedly have more HP than clerics, but light armor just doesn't compare to heavy in any way. I don't even bother teaming with monks and bruisers as MT, unless we are fighting double up blues at most, simply cause they are too hard to keep alive. Even in a team with 2 healers, it is far too much of a power drain having a tank with half my AC, let alone half a Guardian's AC. The same holds with druids, they can't tank for anything, but a Cleric can given all their armor is decently on par with their lvl. __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ "Mark of Pawns? Ugh, what an awful spell. Have you ever gotten it to be useful? I've not done much testing on it at all after seeing the pitiful amount it healed and how seldom it did it. I typically just use BoV and CH, and CH only as a filler. For example, I drop BoV on the tank and he's STILL dropping in hp, though the BoV hasn't spent out yet, so casting another BoV is a waste and casting SS would take too long. That means he's taking HARD hits and the BoV can't keep up, so I tap him with a CH then immediately hit the BoV again." Mark of Pawns isn't a main staple debuff or a heal, but it is a supplement. And, it is power cheap too. App3 I have seen to have a regen strength of somewhere around 25-40 at lvl 27, which is decent for 30 power, though I will admit it was better gauged back when you were lvl 20. Also, it adds 100-200 AC which is also nice. And, it is a fast cast. Fighting against double up greens, this spell can almost keep a tank full health by itself. Against ^^ oranges, it is just nice to have, and cheap to cast which is a plus. EDIT: The main problem with MoP, is that it is a triggered debuff. It won't trigger until the tank takes a few hits, and even then it lasts for maybe 30 seconds once triggered. A decent supplement, and the AC can be usefull in orange ^^ encounters. Message Edited by Decimatus on 12-02-2004 12:00 PM
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12-03-2004, 01:17 AM
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#70 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 9
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Well last night i upgrade my SS, Mark of Pawns and the Resounding Fate to III. Does it make mark of pawns and the heal on mob death still suck? Well it's a bit better, but it is kind of weak. The problem is that it proc's so infrequencly that when 2-3 people are hurt a little bit, i might as well let their natural regen catch up. I find it does help when the wars have the skill that allows them to take every 5th hit for the main tank though I find using resounding fate is pretty good if i remember to cast it near the end of the fight. I find using ALT+M (show the current active spells) very useufl. I use to have it turned off, now i leave it on. I now know exactly how long my spells have stuck to my ally or mob, so i can recast when neccessiary. Toesa
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12-03-2004, 01:32 AM
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#71 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 58
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I wouldn't have called it 'almost' - he was comparing "him vs others" with "adult vs kids" and then adding he was however-many-years older than anyone else and has more kids than anyone else, thus having more experience in not only adult vs kids but also with the content of this thread. Do I need to mention he has little clue on anyone else's EQ2 experience, and none of their RL age and family status? Personally I don't think its possible that one post gets made without putting someone down to attempt to further his point. Not in this thread, though perhaps in another later on. MacAllen wrote: I do not understand your insistance upon sitting on the sidelines and belittling the damage I do in melee when you do 0. This is important then I'll try and explain again. I don't know where you got 'sitting on the sidelines' from, I just said meleeing was not a good tactic compared to other things for the situations you were talking about. You are the only person talking about people sitting on the sidelines, which I have to assume is another way of saying "casting your most efficient heal" since otherwise you have severe reading comprehension issues. And I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Note that taken alone, the above quoted statement makes alot of sense (how can someone complain about doing SOME melee damage vs doing NO melee damage right?) but lets throw it in the context of your typical EQ2 battles at your level. You claim you are fighting stuff that really pushes and challenges your group. Let's make the assumption that your group is pretty darn good (notice I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here) so you are working some challanging orange ^ ^ and low red ^ ^ group battles, handling adds as they may appear as you push your way through some dungeon. I'll repeat: I don't want to insult you by suggesting your group can only handle greens or whatever - you are doing really tough stuff for good players. No arguement on that. Now that we have the context, lets examine some of the things you've said. You have been arguing that SS is not a great spell. In fact, given the 5 second cast time you find it advantageous to melee instead. But this really makes no sense. In a battle with an orange++ group mob(s) SS is going to run out before the end of the battle. Well unless you have a bunch of nukers that go bonkers and hit a few HOs and ... no its still probably going to run out. At least in the orange++ I've fought in, and the fights seem to get longer the higher level you get .. certainly by your lofty level you could probably squeeze in multiple SSs. Ok so we are all happy with "if I cast SS instead of melee sometime significantly enough before the end of battle, it will run out and have healed for full" I hope. So thats, lets say, 600 damage that could have been healed by SS. Now, you have to heal that at some point .. you aren't going to heal if its not necessary right? Since you aren't using SS, you are using something else - CH? Its less efficient. AND you have to cast .. ~2 of them to get that 600 damage covered. And the casting time is ... hmm thats longer than SS. And its more power (becuase they are less efficient). So in fact, what you should be asking is "why do you belittle my desire to spend more time casting heals, and use more power, instead of using SS". With that slightly altered wording I hope that you will see why I said that its a poor tactic to avoid using SS but instead melee. Because really, you aren't meleeing instead.. you are replacing your more efficient SS with other heals. I'm going to repeat the important consideration here: SS is healing damage that you'd otherwise have to heal in another way. Before you start ranting about sitting on the sidelines (aka not meleeing) nowhere did I say anyone wasnt meleeing. And given the above, not even counting the other massive benefits reactive heals like SS have over insta heals, I'd say someone not using SS to heal the tank was being very inefficient. A much bigger issue to me than whether or not he's adding 10dps melee or not. However I certainly can't argue that you are doing anything bad since you claim that, chaining very challenging fights you manage to remain at constant power (though I do have an issue with your definition of 'challanging' in that case) then whatever you are doing is perfectly fine ... you can't get better than constant mana. In my usual orange++ group battles, even with another healer in the group, I've run into power issues and usually need a break after a few fights - seems to be getting worse at higher levels.
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12-03-2004, 02:13 AM
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#72 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 149
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This is getting tiresome.
Why must everything with you people be either/or? You cast a spell, whatever spell you're doing. Let's say you have 5 sec before you need to cast another...what are you doing? If you are not in melee range, with your melee active, you are doing nothing. If you are in melee range, with melee active, you are doing damage. You don't do melee INSTEAD of healing, you do it in addition too, during whatever lulls you might have. Even in the tightest fights, I always seem to fire off some kind of shot between casts. The ones that mocked what tiny melee damage I do obviously consider it pointless (or they wouldn't mock it) and are therefore not doing it. If they're not doing it, between casts, what are they adding to the encounter? Nothing. That was my point.
You're leaving a few pieces out of the context that I'd included in prior posts. Using your data, add the fact that your tank is being hit for 400hp/hit, and the hits are falling every 3 sec. Now, I can cast SS...5 sec go by, my tank has taken 400 unstopped and is about to take another 400. The 2nd 400 lands and the SS heals 87, so the tank takes 313. Now what do I do? Let's say I stack a BoV in there, so 2 sec go by and when the 3rd 400 lands, 138 and 87 are healed, so the tank takes 175. At this point, my tank has taken 888dmg, in 9 sec. Now, lets strip out the SS. I lead off with a BoV, which goes off in 2 sec, so the tank takes 400 but 138 is healed in the 3rd sec. I pause for 1 second and start on a CH, seeing how hard the tank is being hit, so in second 6 when he takes 400 again, he is heald 138 from the Bov and 313 from the CH. I pause another second and repeat, so in second 9 the tank takes 400 which is again healed for 138 and 313. I then repeat this process, but lets look at those numbers. In the same 9 seconds, the tank has taken a total net dmg of 160dmg. Now, how much mana did I spend in the 2 scenarios? In the first, I cast 1 SS and 1 BoV, for 124 + 62 = 186. In the second, I cast 1 BoV and 2 CH's, for 62 + 65x2 = 192. So, in the second scenario, I spent 6 more mana and healed 728hp more dmg. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post, and leave you to check my math. BTW, those numbers are from my spells as I made it home for lunch and spent the time doing that checking instead of playing. I'm sure you can bicker over "but what if....", but bottom line, from a dead start, inside the combat, SS is the least effective spell you can cast for healing, except maybe MoP. Ignore time if you want, that's your perogative, but don't lecture me when you have no clue what you're talking about. Even if you quickly slap a CH on the end of scenarion 1, it lowers the 888 dmg your tank has taken to 573 but now you've spent another 65 mana, making your solution cost MORE mana for less healing. But, but, but....but nothing. You aren't fighting mobs that hit that hard, you don't understand, and won't until you get here, which is why I was using my level as context. I'm not 'better', I'm higher level. It means I've done everything you're doing and more. You'll do it eventually, then you'll understand. Or not. I don't care.
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__________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth. |
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12-03-2004, 02:45 AM
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#73 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 184
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**mods 4 teh win!!1!** are you guys fighting that is doing 400 EVERY hit while you can only heal for 400 in a single Arch heal, let alone the rest of your heals? Not even lvl 32 mobs do 400 every hit, or maybe you are letting a monk tank for you? 400 specials maybe, 400 every hit, I don't think so. More like 50-200 a hit, with hard specials and nukes every once in awhile. Sure, we can come up with all kinds of hypothetical situations to outstrip the heals of a certain vitae, but 75%+ hits dealt to the tank are almost, if not fully absorbed by the vitae when fighting ^^ orange mobs with a real tank, and not some paper doll you decided to invite to your group.
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12-03-2004, 03:06 AM
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#74 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 149
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Let me add a couple more examples, so you see my point with more clarity. Example 1: as above, mob hits for 400hp every 3 sec, but leads off with a 1200hp special (clay guardians, fought them last night). You're in the hall, no prep, you've just fought and are resting when the mob pops on you, so no prep time at all. I know you're perfect, never get agro, and this would never happen to you, but humor me with this amazing leap of fiction. Using SS: Start casting SS. Second 3, tank takes 400. Second 4, tank takes 1200. Second 5, SS goes off, CH is queued.. Second 6, tank takes 400, SS heals 87. Second 7 goes by, second 8 your tank is healed for 313. Second 9, tank takes 400, SS heals 87. The numbers - Tank has taken a total of 1913, which means your tank is very likely dead, and you've spent 124 + 65 = 189 mana. Or...Second 5 BoV is queued, and your tank takes 400 on second 6, SS heals 87 of it. Second 7, BoV goes off. Second 8 goes by, second 9 your tank takes 400, SS heals 87, BoV heals 138. Your tank has now taken 2175 dmg and your tank is DEFINATELY dead, but you only spent 186 mana. Using HoV: Start casting BoV. Second 2, BoV goes off, CH is queued. Second 3, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138. Second 4, tank takes 1200, BoV heals 128. Second 5, CH heals 313, I have another queued. Second 6, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH starts. Second 7 goes by, second 8 CH heals 313. Second 9, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138. Numbers - The tank has taken a total of 1222 dmg and is DEFINATELY alive, and I've spent 62 + 65x2 = 192 mana. A difference of 691hp healed over the best of the SS scenario. However, I'm sure my numbers are a complete fiction, no mobs ever hit that hard. So, lets use Kris's numbers in a similar set of scenarios, shall we? I think I can remember the numbers in my low 20's. Example 2: Mob hits for 200hp every 3 sec, with a leadoff wild swing of 400 (Orc guards bottom of WC). Using SS: Start casting SS. Second 3, tank takes 200hp. Second 4, tank takes 400. Second 5, SS goes off, you have CH queued. Second 6, tank takes 200, SS heals 87. Second 7, CH goes off and heals 188, another CH is queued. Second 8 goes by, second 9 the tank takes 200, SS heals 87. Numbers - The tank has taken 638hp and you've spent 105 + 53 = 158 mana. Or, second 6 the tank takes 200, SS heals 87, second 7 BoV goes off. Second 8 goes by, second 9 the tank takes 200, ss heals 87 and BoV heals 102. Here the tank has taken 724hp and you've spent 55 + 105 = 160 mana. Using BoV: Start casting BoV. Second 2, BoV goes off, CH is queued. Second 3, tank takes 200hp, BoV heals 102. Second 4, tank takes 400, BoV heals 102. Second 5, CH goes off, heals 188, CH is queued. Second 6, tank takes 200, BoV heals 102. Second 7 goes by. Second 8, CH goes off, healing 188. Second 9, tank takes 200, BoV heals 102. Numbers - The tank has taken 318hp and you've spent 55 + 53x2 = 161 mana. But I definately see your point and understand why you think SS is great, and time is not a factor. I apologize for any confusion I've caused in my pointless arguing. Enjoy the next 10 levels  Enjoy
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__________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth. |
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12-03-2004, 03:17 AM
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#75 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 28
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Mac, would just like to point out that while, for that 9 second span of time your numbers do come out on top, you're only factoring in a few fires of the SS. If you take that same 9 second span, repeat it 4 or 5 times for a fight, then the numbers begin to shift the other way.
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Estel - 25 Templar - 25 Jeweler Illuvator - 17 Sorcerer - 27 Alchemist Niende Daishar - Guk Server |
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12-03-2004, 03:28 AM
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#76 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 149
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400-600 were the numbers rolling over the lvl 27 guardian's head, and they all seem to dump their special in the first like 10 seconds. These are lvl 31-34 guardians down in Varsoon. The monk's won't tank, it hurts too much Now keep in mind, there are a LOT of other factors here, such as wards, tank buffs, etc. In fact, given they dump their massive dmg up front, my guardians like to hold the line or hunker down for the first 10 sec just to avoid the nightmare and make my life easier. That also helps them get a good grip on the agro and allows the mobs to spend their mana beating on a piece of granite. However, in this debate, we're talking just the role of the cleric and our spells. Sure the tank can have wards, and other buffs, etc, but all that they would do is cloud the issue and have nothing to do with the effectiveness of the spells in question. BTW, what does **mods 4 teh win!!1!** mean?
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__________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth. |
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12-03-2004, 03:37 AM
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#77 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 212
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edit: **mods 4 teh win!!1!** means someone used a word the mods didnt like, no its not always foul language it could be the other word for not smart... or the other word for mentally challegned that starts with an R. Message Edited by Kiris on 12-02-2004 02:39 PM |
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12-03-2004, 03:39 AM
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#78 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 184
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That was actually W T F, Mods 4 teh win is the profanity filter. heh Most of the hits that land on the tank throughout the battle with a guardian are 200ish, since the guardian is using damage mitigation the first half of the battle. Vitaes do pretty well at handling that. I usually throw both vitae's on the tank, and mop up the extra stuff with a CH here and there, fitting debuffs in when I can. The guardians are cake. It is the groups of 8 red skeles that are the fun ones.
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12-03-2004, 03:52 AM
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#79 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Not a problem, let's go to 18 sec to see the full effect of the SS, shall we? I'll cut and paste my example, and add to it: Example 1: as above, mob hits for 400hp every 3 sec, but leads off with a 1200hp special (clay guardians, fought them last night). You're in the hall, no prep, you've just fought and are resting when the mob pops on you, so no prep time at all. I know you're perfect, never get agro, and this would never happen to you, but humor me with this amazing leap of fiction. Using SS: Start casting SS. Second 3, tank takes 400. Second 4, tank takes 1200. Second 5, SS goes off, CH is queued.. Second 6, tank takes 400, SS heals 87. Second 7 goes by, second 8 your tank is healed for 313, another CH is queued. Second 9, tank takes 400, SS heals 87. Second 10, CH heals for 313, CH is queued. Second 11 goes by, second 12 the tank takes 400, SS heals 87, CH heals 313, CH is queued. Second 13 goes by, second 14 the tank is healed 313, CH is queued. Second 15, the tank takes 400, SS heals 87. Second 16, CH heals 313, CH is queued. Second 17 goes by, second 18 SS heals 87, CH heals 313. Numbers - The tank has taken 1287 and you've spent 124 + 65x6 = 514 mana. Or...Second 5 BoV is queued, and your tank takes 400 on second 6, SS heals 87 of it. Second 7, BoV goes off, CH is queued. Second 8 goes by, second 9 your tank takes 400, SS heals 87, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313, CH is queued. Second 10 goes by, second 11 CH heals 313, CH is queued. Second 12, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, SS heals 87. Second 13 goes by, second 14 CH heals 313, CH is queued. Second 15, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, SS heals 87. Second 16, CH heals 313, CH is queued. Second 17 goes by, second 18, the tank takes 400, SS heals 87, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313. Numbers - The tank has taken 1048, but you've spent 124 + 62 + 65*5 = 511 mana. Now, at 27th lvl, with a 67 wisdom, I have 873 mana. So, 18 sec into the fight, I'm 3/4 empty. Using HoV: Start casting BoV. Second 2, BoV goes off, CH is queued. Second 3, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138. Second 4, tank takes 1200, BoV heals 138. Second 5, CH heals 313, I have another queued. Second 6, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH starts. Second 7 goes by, second 8 CH heals 313, BoV is queued. Second 9, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138. Second 10, BoV goes off, CH is queued. Second 11 goes by, second 12 tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313, CH queued. Second 13 goes by, second 14 CH heals 313, CH queued. Second 15, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138. Second 16, CH heals 313, CH queued. Second 17 goes by, second 18, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313. Numbers - The tank has taken 776hp and I have spent 62*2 + 65*5 = 449 mana. Would you like to go for 36 seconds? The curve keeps going down. Knock yourself out. What if the mobs hit for less? Then they hit for less in both situations, and the numbers still bear out. Even with the mobs hitting in the 100's, in my example 2 above, it still shows the same result. Now, the math was done while I was on the phone at work, so please point out arithmetic errors if you see them and I'll correct. Message Edited by MacAllen on 12-02-2004 02:58 PM
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__________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth. |
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12-03-2004, 03:55 AM
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#80 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 149
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LOL Quite a sphincter tightener Edit: Oh, and if you want 200 vs 400, use example 2 above, the results are the same. Now, if you lower your dmg results to < 87, then SS starts to look pretty, so I expect that example to roll out from the opposition soon, as they're big on changing the example to suit their needs. Time? Not a factor. Mobs don't hit that hard. SS is great. Wait, it's not great. Oh, it is great, but only in certain situations. Oh, but you have to have smarts to use it. Whatever. You ask for numbers, I give you numbers. I even use your numbers. Pick a story and stick with it. Or not *shrug* Edit: Oh, and sorry about not knowing the profanity filter. Different forums handle things differently and I try hard not to use profanity here as it's a mixed audience. It doesn't mean I'm nice, it just means I have kids who read these forums too :p Message Edited by MacAllen on 12-02-2004 02:59 PM
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__________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth. |
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12-03-2004, 04:04 AM
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#81 |
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Nope, never once did we change our stance, you just dont know how to get the words from the page, to your brain, then understand it with out every exact scenario being spelled out for you, and us listing when it is and isnt a good spell to use. instead you would rather ignore the fact that 98% of the time its the most effecient healing method, because in that 2% time you are talking about it isnt. Btw gg's on using Chris's level 23 healing levels, in your level 30+ mob breakdown, it really fits!
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12-03-2004, 04:28 AM
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#82 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 30
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Thank you for posting numbers now we can actually get some where.
Since you didnt quite break it down i will try. Correct me if I am wrong. Also, I have no idea what these spells are (app3, adept 1, adept 3)???? LVL 27 INQ CH = 313 HP healed for 65 mana - 4.81 rating This is a very nice improvement over my rating at 23. This spells seems to have scaled very nicely over 4 levels provided it is app3 BoV = 138 with 4 charges = 552 HP for 62 mana - 8.9 rating This spell has also scaled up nicely over 4 lvls provided it is app3. SS = 87 with 8 charges = 696 HP for 124 mana - 5.61 rating This spell has not scaled one bit. In fact, it looks exactly the same as my app1 version at lvl 23. Only the mana cost has scaled by your numbers, which is why the rating has gone down. Ok, so here we have a problem. Either you used my healing power(87) at lvl 23 app1 version and used your mana cost to prove your point by an honest mistake. Or, you did it intentionally because you haven't used SS in several lvls and have no idea what it heals for now. Or, SS is broken and only mana usage scales, not HP healed. I will take you at your word that you are accurately posting your numbers. In that case, the scaling on SS is horribly broken compared to the scaling of other spells and this needs to be brought to the devs attention. If this is the case, then you are 100% right. But, only because it would appear that SS does not scale past lvl 23. I know that it does scale because at lvl 22 it was 81 HP a charge at app1. Again correct me if I am wrong. I would like to get and accurate rating of a INQ's spells at your lvl.
EDIT: Also of note- Your using of SS example vs BoV example is horrible. You do not factor in stacking the reactives in the pre fight routine to heal some of the initial brunt of the encounter. In neither example do you have stacked reactives firing off. WHICH IS WHAT I AM ADVOCATING. Stacking the reactives and finding a way to keep them stacked. I will assume you have made this error as an honest mistake. We are not talking about programing a macro to heal the exact same way every time. In your example of damage taken I would have: (Im not going to type it out second by second.) Prefight stack. Tank takes the intial big hit. I would cast my adept 1 Arch heal(it it scales in a way similar to the way your CH has)or spam 2 CH. Cast BoV so it reapplies as the initial one from the prefight stack fades or shortly there after. Cast SS so it reapplies as the inital one fades or shortly there after. Then heal as necessary(cast another BoV, CH, or whatever) til the fight has ended. I know example is not exact, but niether is yours. Message Edited by Kiris420 on 12-02-2004 03:51 PM
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Myth'd: 80 Coercer 80 Mystic 80 SK 80 Brig Non Myth'd: Necro |
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12-03-2004, 04:37 AM
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#83 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 149
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CH and BoV are adept III, SS is app III...you'll note it's the same as the data you posted for yours. I never upgraded SS because I stopped using it in my low 20's. Spells do not appear to advance per level, but only based upon the spell's level itself, app/ad/master. If you look at the example using your data instead of mine, you'll see that your own data produces the same results.
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__________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth. |
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12-03-2004, 04:56 AM
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#84 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 30
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That is not true. SS was 81 at 22 for me and 87 at 23. It is still app1. Upgrading to app3 tonight to check it out. If my mana cost jumps, but it's still healing for 87
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Myth'd: 80 Coercer 80 Mystic 80 SK 80 Brig Non Myth'd: Necro |
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12-03-2004, 05:03 AM
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#85 |
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Posts: 212
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you could not be farther from the truth my friend. Spells power do increase with level, not with just the level of spell it is (meaning app1, app2, app3). You also say you havent used SS since your early 20's so how can you argue then its not a viable solution at your level if you havent used it? wow, the truth is starting to leak out here.. someone get a bucket I thinks she sunk.
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12-03-2004, 05:13 AM
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#86 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Allow me to be more specific...I stopped using SS in my low 20's for anything other than a pre-fight buff or chaos management when we're on the gold-paved road, and never upgraded. I never upgraded Mark of the Pawn either, though I cast that now and again. I've used SS several times in the last day or so to try to understand what you see in the spell. Adept I's are drop only and Adept III's require a rare, so I don't upgrade spells I don't use regularly, as I'm afraid I'm not just dripping with cash at the moment. And I guess spells do advance a little with level, but the jump I get going from app to appIII and adept III was far greater than anything I get on a level-by-level basis. But my SS does 87 now and did 87 the day I upgraded it to app III, I remember noting that and thinking it odd. Perhaps the spell is broken, and if that's the case then my argument goes out the window. I'm afraid I'm not one to try to decide what the devs intent was and cry for a nerf or buff if it's not what I like. The spell is what it is and sucks or not, based upon the evidence at hand, at least for me.
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__________________________________________________ _ Andrikus Truthbringer - Kerran Inquisitor (48) and Provisioner (50), Befallen If you don't face pain, you won't know fear. If you haven't conquered fear, you will never know the Truth. |
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12-03-2004, 05:51 AM
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#87 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 30
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LVL 23 INQ
Soothing sermon App3 107 healed per charge X 8 charges - 856 HP heal 117 Mana Rating = 7.31
I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. But, over the course of all these posts, I have watched you constantly take things I post out of context, use lopsided examples to prove your points, flat out mistate simple game mechanics that any lvl 4 newb on the isle of refuge notices(spells getting stronger with character lvl). Now, you want me to believe that your character is bugged and your SS did not increase with charcter lvl or by upgrading to app3 while the mana cost did? And by coincidence, it just happened to get bugged at 87 Hp healed - the exact thing I posted before I had any knowledge of what your SS healed for? Taking all of this into account, we were either destined by GOD to have this debate so that you may find out your character is bugged or you are full of it. Hmmm. Tough call.
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Myth'd: 80 Coercer 80 Mystic 80 SK 80 Brig Non Myth'd: Necro |
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12-03-2004, 09:56 AM
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#88 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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BTW Macallen... the clay guardians in Varsoon hit a Guardian with 1700 AC for an average of 60-200 with 400 specials, no where close to 400 average, 1200 specials. 60-200 being well within normal Vitae healing.
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12-03-2004, 10:04 PM
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#89 |
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How can one person be so wrong? I notice an attempt to save ego elsewhere ... Level is actually a factor in determining the potency of spells. I'm going to give up trying to save the readers from any more misinformation in this thread, as it should be evident to any worth saving which posters have little credibility. |
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12-06-2004, 04:06 PM
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#90 |
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I just want to say, that's the most amusing debate I've seen in ages. I am a 26 year old male who graduated from high school, and have attended college for 3 years (though not completed). One of the courses I had to take in BOTH high school and College was Reading Comprehension. After looking at Both Kiris's arguements, MacAllen's rebuttals, and Gronkers occasional statements, this has to be one of the most amusing and entertaining threads I've read in a long time. I'm sure I'll get one starred for saying it, but I still have to comment.What everyone is really arguing about is this, FROM MY PERCEPTION. Is SS worth Casting in place of 2 CH + 1 melee swing During A Battle IN CERTAIN situations? I don't claim to know. You really have to judge JUST that 6 second period. Those are the same time frames (and similar power cost). I'm judging from what I'm reading from you guys, and my own experiences with spell casting & meleeing (as a warlock). SS takes 5 seconds to cast? and CH takes 3? Ok. Second 1 Second 2 Second 3 Second 4 Second 5 Second 6----------------------SS------------------------------------****Melee****---------------CH-------------***Melee***---------------CH---------------There's your time justification. You're getting the SAME amount of melee swings either way, just so you know. Theoretically, you might get an extra before and after, so 2 melee swings. Do you honestly think 12, 24, or even 36 damage is going to make a difference?I'm a 24 Warlock. I'm not a healer. However, several of my guildmates are. After reading this discussion while crafting, I popped in to guild chat and started asking a few numbers off Soothing Sermon & Bestowal of Vitae. From 23 to 31 (on Unrest server) both spells scale every level. App III's from a level 27 do more than App III's from a level 23. Of the 4 templars and 3 inquisitors that my guildmates were grouped with, as well as some from the guild I used to be in, ALL of them used SS before a battle and swore up & down it rocked, and was worth recasting in battle -IF SITUATIONS PERMIIT-. Several said they often didn't have time to recast it right when it wore off, but all of them made an effort to find a moment when they were able to devote 5 seconds to it. I also asked a RL friend who's on Guk, and who knew someone on Runnyeye, if their SS scaled appropriately with their Combat Healing and Arch Healing. So, on Unrest, Guk, and Runnyeye, those spells scale every level, with or without a spell version change. Admittedly, Adept 1 is better than App 3, and significantly so. Now, I don't know which server MacAllen plays on (I have neither desire nor care to hunt up his stats), but unless it's a one server or one character glitch or an act of god, there's no way that a level 27 SS does the exact same healing ratio as a level 23 SS. In that mix of healers, 2 refused to melee anything higher than White. 3 Refused to melee anything higher than yellow+. The rest would melee "as they felt appropriate," meaning they would make a judgement based on the tank, tank's AC, tank's DPS, tank's Taunt levels, tank's capabilities, tank's HP & damage Received per second, their mana, their level vs. the tank's level vs. the mob's level, and a other factors that I don't comprehend (as I'm not a healer). It's a risk. If the mob aggros you, it takes a hit or two to realize it. If the healer is off to the side, it's noticed immediately, and often pulled back to the tank before it even swings at the healer. The level 24 templar I was fighting with tonight melee'd regularly. On whites and lower he'd hit for approximately 7 to 12 damage with the rare crit of around 22. It took him -2- seconds to swing his mace. On higher mobs, he hit less often and hit for less damage. I checked the log, out of 240 swings (that I saw in combat logs) he actually HIT about 75 of those. That means that in that "5 seconds that you could be castings two other spells and get one swing off in between," you've got a 1 in 3 chance of actually doing damage. On the Orange Double++ that I asked him to melee on (to test a theory) he was able to hit the mob 2 out of 27 times. So, you're telling me that that extra 13 damage (one hit for 4 one hit for 9) REALLY makes a difference on a mob with over 2000 hp? When it was killed by a nuke that did 300 damage? Really. Shortened the battle, didn't it? Just checking. I don't know heals, but I live and die by damage. 13 damage means squat in a fight of that nature. Now, 13 a second is another story. But 13 total damage out of an entire fight means squat. That -might- shorten the battle by a total of 2 seconds, i.e. as long as it took him to swing his mace, if a lot of other factors Aligned Perfectly to allow him to make the last swing. Those factors include (but are not limited to) 4 damage over time spells, a nuke ever 2 seconds (max time), a melee swing ever 1.2 seconds (ranger with two daggers, not sure if they swing seperately or not, as an example), God knows what kind of skills the various classes are using, and in general everyone doing their best to kill it. Let's -assume- you actually hit the mob EVERY SINGLE TIME even though a level 31 warden I chat with has her crushing maxed and can't do that against yellows, much less orange ++ mobs. That'd be what, 12 dps (by YOUR reckoning) over maybe 600 seconds (on a really long battle). Now, factor in that you're probably casting for a good portion (80% of the battle, by simple reasoning that "every second counts" and you're casting a lot). That's Not quite the same. That's 120 seconds that you have available to melee. Consider, then, that even fighters miss, and get "low" hits occasionally, it's not quite the "1440" that it sounds like. Try 1/3rd of that. That 400 damage, over the whole fight. That's Two nukes, max. I'm doing 330 per nuke NOW, at level 24. That's up from 310 at 23. You're saying 4 seconds (as long as it takes me to cast my highest & second highest nuke), at the end of a battle, means a full wipe of your party? I don't care WHAT you're using you're probably doing a crappy job of healing. I can't even begin to comprehend your problems. 4 seconds in the MIDDLE of a fight, yes, but does it really help near the end? That's the only place your PUNY damage helps, is cutting down that time. And it's NEVER going to be a significant amount. You might shorten a 30 second battle to 28 seconds. Maybe. Perhaps. If all the planets lined up in a row. On a much longer fight, it adds up. I timed a few of my battles tonight, we ranged from 30 seconds (orange+) to 5 minutes (4 orange++ group with an orange++ add at the end). In that 5 minute fight, you would have MAYBE saved 30 seconds. Maybe. Probably less when you start to add in AoE spells by casters. Melee if you want, we won't complain. Extra damage is Extra damage. Don't try to tell me that 12 damage is worth not having a reactive heal on someone, I get that from my side of the fence. I don't know anything about healing, as I'm not a healer, but I live & die by spells. I've rejoiced in the extra damage my spells do, the extra power regen I get out of battle from my buffs, the extra AC, Int, and various damage mitigation that ALL of my spells ncrease by every level. Some more than others, but the ratios don't change. I just had to comment. It started short, but I just couldn't help myself.
Message Edited by Elahna on 12-06-2004 03:18 AM |
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We opened a door last night to a room filled with red^^ skels, one of which was at the door and they all lit off on us. Tore us apart, I was burning PoA at both ends and, when the evac dust settled, we were all alive but not a one of us had > 20% health