Best Healer

[Timaarit]

stargazer5678 wrote:

I my previous post I tried to show that those 2 spells should be used with caution. I was not trying to defend them. My thoughts were about priests classes overall. My point was that you shouldn't people shouldn't compare apples and oranges.

But since the only part you saw and cared about about is those 2 spells let me talk more about it.

 

Ok, you are saying the tank is dying and you can't do anything. Why is that? My understanding is templars have big direct heals, is it not so? You just casted it, ok, you have more than 1 right? Furies BITF is similar to one of your big heals but has limitations (can't be cast on self and effective only if tank is below 50%). Without BITF furies would be far behing in healing, I understand that's where you want furies to be, but luckily that's not the case.

Hybernation is useless if the tank is dying! It's 10s until it fires. You mean none of your DD heals in on 10s recast that you can use instead??

Furthermore, if you don't agree or don't understand something don't rush to label it silly, adds no value to your post.

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If tank is over 50% health he is not dying is he? No, so the advantage of having 2 extra heals with separate timers is obvious. In addition, the 2 base heals heal equal (there is 5% difference in templars advantage) amount of hitpoints per second. But in addition to this, furies get 2 more direct heals which give furies 60% more direct healing power.

[Kendricke]

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Timaarit wrote:
Put in an avoidance tank...

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Fine, make it an avoidance tank.  The example's still solid no matter what fighter you use.  The numbers scale slightly differently, but the effect is the same.  Regenerations aren't as effective with spike damage as other types of specialty heals.  This doesn't get better with avoidance tanks - it gets worse actually.  Spikes are MUCH more dangerous with a leather tank.  With a mitigation tank, it's a steadier stream of damage.  With an avoidance tank, you have to be on top of the spikes...which are going to be more extreme.  You might have several rounds of little to no damage, then a bad few rounds on the RNG and you're looking at triple the damage a mitigation tank might have to deal with.

It's situations like those that regenerations simply can't compete with reactives or wards.  That's why Furies require faster, bigger situational heals. Templar reactives already handle spikes better.  Our reactives do exactly that - they react.

 

 

[Cowdenic]

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Kendricke wrote:

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Timaarit wrote:
Put in an avoidance tank...

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Fine, make it an avoidance tank.  The example's still solid no matter what fighter you use.  The numbers scale slightly differently, but the effect is the same.  Regenerations aren't as effective with spike damage as other types of specialty heals.  This doesn't get better with avoidance tanks - it gets worse actually.  Spikes are MUCH more dangerous with a leather tank.  With a mitigation tank, it's a steadier stream of damage.  With an avoidance tank, you have to be on top of the spikes...which are going to be more extreme.  You might have several rounds of little to no damage, then a bad few rounds on the RNG and you're looking at triple the damage a mitigation tank might have to deal with.

It's situations like those that regenerations simply can't compete with reactives or wards.  That's why Furies require faster, bigger situational heals. Templar reactives already handle spikes better.  Our reactives do exactly that - they react.

 

 

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Fallacy.

[Kendricke]

It's completely on topic, it's based in factual considerations, and it's relevant.  What part of the post did you feel was fallacy? Which fallacy would that be? 

 

[stargazer5678]

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Timaarit wrote:

stargazer5678 wrote:

I my previous post I tried to show that those 2 spells should be used with caution. I was not trying to defend them. My thoughts were about priests classes overall. My point was that you shouldn't people shouldn't compare apples and oranges.

But since the only part you saw and cared about about is those 2 spells let me talk more about it.

 

Ok, you are saying the tank is dying and you can't do anything. Why is that? My understanding is templars have big direct heals, is it not so? You just casted it, ok, you have more than 1 right? Furies BITF is similar to one of your big heals but has limitations (can't be cast on self and effective only if tank is below 50%). Without BITF furies would be far behing in healing, I understand that's where you want furies to be, but luckily that's not the case.

Hybernation is useless if the tank is dying! It's 10s until it fires. You mean none of your DD heals in on 10s recast that you can use instead??

Furthermore, if you don't agree or don't understand something don't rush to label it silly, adds no value to your post.

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If tank is over 50% health he is not dying is he? No, so the advantage of having 2 extra heals with separate timers is obvious. In addition, the 2 base heals heal equal (there is 5% difference in templars advantage) amount of hitpoints per second. But in addition to this, furies get 2 more direct heals which give furies 60% more direct healing power.

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Yes, they are on seprate timers which is what we, furies, need to keep the group alive. Some templars still don't get it. Realize that with fury healing the tank will be in the orage much more often than with a templar healing. You reactives and direct heals are much more powerful, furies need to have something to compensate and this is BITF. One more time, stop putting Hybernation in one line with BITF and other heals, it's rarely useful and most definitely you don't cast it all the time. Is it a heal on its own timer? Yes. Is this the spell that will save the tank? In 99 out of 100 cases it won't. It mostly makes sense to use right before Porcupine, but I am hesitant to use Porcupine if I am the only healer in the group because it stuns me for 30 seconds.. And also 60% more direct healing power?? Wow, just having 2 more spells separate timers don't translate into 60% more direct healing power, see my comments above.

[zorbdan]

The part of your statement that was false was the part about regens not being good with spike damage and here is why ...

 

 

The mob is hitting for minimal amounts lets say 100's before and after this series of hits - 400's and 500's and a max spike hit of 800  come in at once.

 

mob hits for 400 then 500 then 400 then 800 reactive heals 300x4 =1200 healed of that 2100 damage 900 damage needs to be healed by other means direct or otherwise as a result of the spike.

 

mob hits for 400 then 500 then 400 then 800 regen heals 300 of that damage then over the next 5 ticks it heals for 1500 more so of the 2100 damage 1800 of it was healed leaving only 300 damage that needs to be healed by other means direct or otherwise as a result of the spike.

 

 

Conclusion templar needs a 900hp fast cast heal other healer needs a 300hp fast cast heal to keep up. Templar is short 600hps worth of healing .

 

There are things I am not taking into account here such as when the reactive/regen was cast during the battle so lets look at that .

 

 

Tank has 4000 hps

 

mob hits 9 times to start things off

 

100, 100, 100, 400, 500, 400, 800, 100, 100 = 2600 damage

 

reactive and regen being cast before pull

 

the reactive only works on the first 5 hits absorbing up to 300 per hit 0, 0, 0, 100, 200, 400, 800,100,100 leaving the tank down 1600 damage = tank now has 2400hps left

 

 

the regen ticks off 300 hps healing on the tank for 5 ticks, the first tick occurs after the 3rd hit second tick occurs after 6th hit, 3rd tick at 9th hit . After 3 hits the tank is down 0 hps 6 hits the tank is down 1000 hps, on 9 hits the tank will be down a total of 1700 but guess what the regen still has two more ticks left following the spike that will heal for another 600 leaving the tank down only 1100 hps = tank now has 3100 hps left

 

 

At the end of 9 hits the mob is still alive tank is at - 2400/temp 2300/druid ... the templar is left scrambling for direct heals to get his tanks hps back up while the druid sits back and lets his 2 additional ticks of regen do the job.

 

 Templar throws down a 1000hps slow cast heal and tank is now comfortably at 3400, meanwhile druid throws down a fast cast heal of 800 plus nukes for 1000 damage in the time it took the templar to cast his 1 heal also his 2 ticks of regen left 600hps worth of regen ticks puts the tank at 3700 hps . 

 

Again templar comes up 300hps short and about 1000 damage too !

 

Now if this tank only had 1700 hps the tank would be dead with the druid and would have survived by 100hps with the templar.

 

 

Message Edited by zorbdan on 11-23-2005 04:08 PM

[bigmak20]

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Kendricke wrote:

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bigmak2010 wrote:

You are just the best healers.  And have the best DPS.  And the best utility.  Triple Gratz.

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What!? 

So a monster rushes three identical parties in three different, yet identical instances.  The ONLY difference in each party is the healer.  In one group, there's a Templar...in another a Mystic...and in the last group, a Fury.

The first monster slams into the fighter in each group for five hits at 200 damage a pop in the first round of combat.  Each healer had managed to fire off one single group specialty heal 4 seconds prior to the pull and that's in effect right now.

In the first group, the Templar's group reactive fired off five times and healed the fighter for ~1000 health when only 1000 damage was taken.  In the second group, the Mystic's group ward blocked 1500 points of damage when only 1000 damage was taken.  In the third group, the Fury's Regeneration has already healed about ~300 health out of 1000...but it's already fired 3 times out of the 5 total it's going to. 

Group 1 has a fighter with no damage and a reactive still up with 4 more triggers left at around ~200 healing per trigger.  Group 2 has a fighter with no damage and a ~500 point ward still up.  Group 3's fighter is down 700 health, but has a regneration that will heal most of that over the next couple rounds of combat...while the monster is still attacking for around 1000 damage per round.

The Templar's already casting his single target reactive.  The Mystic's already casting her single target ward.  The Furie's switching to a direct heal because the 5000 health fighter is down about 14-15% already.  He's not going to cast Back into the Fray or Hibernation in this situation because that's a waste of health and casting the single target regeneration isn't going to be fast enough to bring the fighter's health back up fast enough. 

...

Care to continue?

 

NOTE:  Hypothetical situation.  I can use exact numbers and exact spell names (not to mention casting times and power costs) if someone wants to complain though. 

 

 

Message Edited by Kendricke on 11-23-2005 01:18 PM

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Since we're making fantasy arguments here....

So the Fury pops an AoE and a DD spell and the MoB drops dead before anyone takes any damage... lol

Direct heals on seperate timers.  IF you think that's balanced then you are saying the game is out of balance with the great balancing of LU13.  Please show me how Furies are somehow inferior healers at L50 and L51.

They suffer from the same difficulties we have.  Heals are spent and are waiting for timers.  The difference is they get 2 more direct heals to help with that -- on short timers.  Not minutes.  Not lotto.  Not a utility trick.  Two direct heals on relatively short recast timers.

It's obvious to me Sony forgot to consider "Healing Balance" when they were handing out ancient spells.  I think it's obvious to everyone; except those that want Furies to continue to be the uber healers at 58+

 

[Cowdenic]

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zorbdan wrote:

The part of your statement that was false was the part about regens not being good with spike damage and here is why ...

 

 

The mob is hitting for minimal amounts lets say 100's before and after this series of hits - 400's and 500's and a max spike hit of 800  come in at once.

 

mob hits for 400 then 500 then 400 then 800 reactive heals 300x4 =1200 healed of that 2100 damage 900 damage needs to be healed by other means direct or otherwise as a result of the spike.

 

mob hits for 400 then 500 then 400 then 800 regen heals 300 of that damage then over the next 5 ticks it heals for 1500 more so of the 2100 damage 1800 of it was healed leaving only 300 damage that needs to be healed by other means direct or otherwise as a result of the spike.

 

 

Conclusion templar needs a 900hp fast cast heal other healer needs a 300hp fast cast heal to keep up. Templar is short 600hps worth of healing .

 

There are things I am not taking into account here such as when the reactive/regen was cast during the battle so lets look at that .

 

 

Tank has 4000 hps

 

mob hits 9 times to start things off

 

100, 100, 100, 400, 500, 400, 800, 100, 100 = 2600 damage

 

reactive and regen being cast before pull

 

the reactive only works on the first 5 hits absorbing up to 300 per hit 0, 0, 0, 100, 200, 400, 800,100,100 leaving the tank down 1600 damage = tank now has 2400hps left

 

 

the regen ticks off 300 hps healing on the tank for 5 ticks, the first tick occurs after the 3rd hit second tick occurs after 6th hit, 3rd tick at 9th hit . After 3 hits the tank is down 0 hps 6 hits the tank is down 1000 hps, on 9 hits the tank will be down a total of 1700 but guess what the regen still has two more ticks left following the spike that will heal for another 600 leaving the tank down only 1100 hps = tank now has 3100 hps left

 

 

At the end of 9 hits the mob is still alive tank is at - 2400/temp 2300/druid ... the templar is left scrambling for direct heals to get his tanks hps back up while the druid sits back and lets his 2 additional ticks of regen do the job.

 

 Templar throws down a 1000hps slow cast heal and tank is now comfortably at 3400, meanwhile druid throws down a fast cast heal of 800 plus nukes for 1000 damage in the time it took the templar to cast his 1 heal also his 2 ticks of regen left 600hps worth of regen ticks puts the tank at 3700 hps . 

 

Again templar comes up 300hps short and about 1000 damage too !

 

Now if this tank only had 1700 hps the tank would be dead with the druid and would have survived by 100hps with the templar.

 

 

Message Edited by zorbdan on 11-23-2005 04:08 PM

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exactly. Thank you for not making me spend my time explaining and probably flaming. That all being said.

Druids do not need to cast prepull, they react to damage. Templars need to assume (with single target spells of course) that somebody is going to hold agro. Not always the case when you consider things like adds, agro wipe (yes more and more mobs erase agro at certain points in the battle.) and the such. Regens are also all faster cast than Reactives. The regen portions of direct heals stack. So you can literally in under 6 secs have 4 regens popping, and with them now being more front heavy than ever before it deals with damage easily. So what do Furies do at level 27 when they are waiting for their 4 recasts to pop up. Throwing out 600 and 700 pt nukes.

I dont want a nerf to Furies. I love my new Fury. (She is the cutest tiniest little gnome fury.) I just want to see other disadvantaged healers brought up close to them. The good news is I can always farm with my Templar for my little Fury.

[Cowdenic]

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Kendricke wrote:

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bigmak2010 wrote:

You are just the best healers.  And have the best DPS.  And the best utility.  Triple Gratz.

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What!? 

So a monster rushes three identical parties in three different, yet identical instances.  The ONLY difference in each party is the healer.  In one group, there's a Templar...in another a Mystic...and in the last group, a Fury.

The first monster slams into the fighter in each group for five hits at 200 damage a pop in the first round of combat.  Each healer had managed to fire off one single group specialty heal 4 seconds prior to the pull and that's in effect right now.

In the first group, the Templar's group reactive fired off five times and healed the fighter for ~1000 health when only 1000 damage was taken.  In the second group, the Mystic's group ward blocked 1500 points of damage when only 1000 damage was taken.  In the third group, the Fury's Regeneration has already healed about ~300 health out of 1000...but it's already fired 3 times out of the 5 total it's going to. 

Group 1 has a fighter with no damage and a reactive still up with 4 more triggers left at around ~200 healing per trigger.  Group 2 has a fighter with no damage and a ~500 point ward still up.  Group 3's fighter is down 700 health, but has a regneration that will heal most of that over the next couple rounds of combat...while the monster is still attacking for around 1000 damage per round.

The Templar's already casting his single target reactive.  The Mystic's already casting her single target ward.  The Furie's switching to a direct heal because the 5000 health fighter is down about 14-15% already.  He's not going to cast Back into the Fray or Hibernation in this situation because that's a waste of health and casting the single target regeneration isn't going to be fast enough to bring the fighter's health back up fast enough. 

...

Care to continue?

 

NOTE:  Hypothetical situation.  I can use exact numbers and exact spell names (not to mention casting times and power costs) if someone wants to complain though. 

 

 

Message Edited by Kendricke on 11-23-2005 01:18 PM

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The problem with this example is you assume a druid will cast regen prior to pull. My Fury always casts after 1st hit, and it is always only after first hit as my Furies cast time is 1 sec.

[Kendricke]

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Cowdenicus wrote:

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Kendricke wrote:

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bigmak2010 wrote:

You are just the best healers.  And have the best DPS.  And the best utility.  Triple Gratz.

---

What!? 

So a monster rushes three identical parties in three different, yet identical instances.  The ONLY difference in each party is the healer.  In one group, there's a Templar...in another a Mystic...and in the last group, a Fury.

The first monster slams into the fighter in each group for five hits at 200 damage a pop in the first round of combat.  Each healer had managed to fire off one single group specialty heal 4 seconds prior to the pull and that's in effect right now.

In the first group, the Templar's group reactive fired off five times and healed the fighter for ~1000 health when only 1000 damage was taken.  In the second group, the Mystic's group ward blocked 1500 points of damage when only 1000 damage was taken.  In the third group, the Fury's Regeneration has already healed about ~300 health out of 1000...but it's already fired 3 times out of the 5 total it's going to. 

Group 1 has a fighter with no damage and a reactive still up with 4 more triggers left at around ~200 healing per trigger.  Group 2 has a fighter with no damage and a ~500 point ward still up.  Group 3's fighter is down 700 health, but has a regneration that will heal most of that over the next couple rounds of combat...while the monster is still attacking for around 1000 damage per round.

The Templar's already casting his single target reactive.  The Mystic's already casting her single target ward.  The Furie's switching to a direct heal because the 5000 health fighter is down about 14-15% already.  He's not going to cast Back into the Fray or Hibernation in this situation because that's a waste of health and casting the single target regeneration isn't going to be fast enough to bring the fighter's health back up fast enough. 

...

Care to continue?

 

NOTE:  Hypothetical situation.  I can use exact numbers and exact spell names (not to mention casting times and power costs) if someone wants to complain though. 

 

 

Message Edited by Kendricke on 11-23-2005 01:18 PM

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The problem with this example is you assume a druid will cast regen prior to pull. My Fury always casts after 1st hit, and it is always only after first hit as my Furies cast time is 1 sec.

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Fair enough.  So you cast after the pull.  You're still casting consistent healing as opposed to dealing with damage as it's dealt.  It's really just two different flavors of ice cream.  A few months back, everyone preferred Templar because it was the flavor of the month down at 32 SOE's.  Now, the new big thing is Fury.  Whatever brand you want to buy...buy.  It's a personal preference.

I still prefer Templar flavor.  You apparantly prefer the new big thing.  Whatever floats your banana split boat is good for you, right? 

In short:  If you're not happy with Templars, then do something constructive about that unhappiness.  Either pick a new class; pick a new game; or find a way to constructively word your suggestions to the developers. 

I've finally tired of trying to convince folks that what I like is what I like.  If you don't like what I like, then go grab a different flavor or hit a different store.  Whatever you do, just do something other than sitting in the corner with a flavor you obviously hate dripping all over you griping to anyone within earshot how lousy the ice cream is and how horrible the store is for making it.  Some of us are still pretty happy with the Templar flavor in front of us. 

 

 

[Cowdenic]

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Kendricke wrote:

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Cowdenicus wrote:

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Kendricke wrote:

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bigmak2010 wrote:

You are just the best healers.  And have the best DPS.  And the best utility.  Triple Gratz.

---

What!? 

So a monster rushes three identical parties in three different, yet identical instances.  The ONLY difference in each party is the healer.  In one group, there's a Templar...in another a Mystic...and in the last group, a Fury.

The first monster slams into the fighter in each group for five hits at 200 damage a pop in the first round of combat.  Each healer had managed to fire off one single group specialty heal 4 seconds prior to the pull and that's in effect right now.

In the first group, the Templar's group reactive fired off five times and healed the fighter for ~1000 health when only 1000 damage was taken.  In the second group, the Mystic's group ward blocked 1500 points of damage when only 1000 damage was taken.  In the third group, the Fury's Regeneration has already healed about ~300 health out of 1000...but it's already fired 3 times out of the 5 total it's going to. 

Group 1 has a fighter with no damage and a reactive still up with 4 more triggers left at around ~200 healing per trigger.  Group 2 has a fighter with no damage and a ~500 point ward still up.  Group 3's fighter is down 700 health, but has a regneration that will heal most of that over the next couple rounds of combat...while the monster is still attacking for around 1000 damage per round.

The Templar's already casting his single target reactive.  The Mystic's already casting her single target ward.  The Furie's switching to a direct heal because the 5000 health fighter is down about 14-15% already.  He's not going to cast Back into the Fray or Hibernation in this situation because that's a waste of health and casting the single target regeneration isn't going to be fast enough to bring the fighter's health back up fast enough. 

...

Care to continue?

 

NOTE:  Hypothetical situation.  I can use exact numbers and exact spell names (not to mention casting times and power costs) if someone wants to complain though. 

 

 

Message Edited by Kendricke on 11-23-2005 01:18 PM

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The problem with this example is you assume a druid will cast regen prior to pull. My Fury always casts after 1st hit, and it is always only after first hit as my Furies cast time is 1 sec.

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Fair enough.  So you cast after the pull.  You're still casting consistent healing as opposed to dealing with damage as it's dealt.  It's really just two different flavors of ice cream.  A few months back, everyone preferred Templar because it was the flavor of the month down at 32 SOE's.  Now, the new big thing is Fury.  Whatever brand you want to buy...buy.  It's a personal preference.

I still prefer Templar flavor.  You apparantly prefer the new big thing.  Whatever floats your banana split boat is good for you, right? 

In short:  If you're not happy with Templars, then do something constructive about that unhappiness.  Either pick a new class; pick a new game; or find a way to constructively word your suggestions to the developers. 

I've finally tired of trying to convince folks that what I like is what I like.  If you don't like what I like, then go grab a different flavor or hit a different store.  Whatever you do, just do something other than sitting in the corner with a flavor you obviously hate dripping all over you griping to anyone within earshot how lousy the ice cream is and how horrible the store is for making it.  Some of us are still pretty happy with the Templar flavor in front of us. 

 

 

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I have invested 9 months into my Templar. I want to be happy with him again. The only way to do that is to

A. Bring it to peoples attention that we have a problem.

B. Work on a solution for said problem.

Now everything that I want to have happen for Templars wont, some of it wont be balanced, some of it wont follow SoE's new vision of Templars. Some of it will. The objective of the discourse here is to get ideas solidified (multiple ideas) and submit them to SoE.

Some will find that Templars are pretty ok and just need some tweaks. Some will think some spells need to be dumped and overhauled. Some will think our shields and melee Danage need to be looked into. Some think we need an offensive stance. Some think armor is broke currently. Some think lottery heals (I love that new term for some of our spells) are not popping enough. Some will find we need a third DH line on another timer. Some say our reactives are too strong, some say not strong enough. Some say our buffs need work. Some say our debuffs need work. Some say Wis should affect healing.

These are the ideas we need to bring forward as a group, and it would be nice to see Dev response on them, even if it is a flat out no, so that we can move on with a new idea.

But Kendricke my friend, you are not a Dev. Your input is valued when you are not belittling people. Condescension is not necessary for civil discourse, so please just ratchet it down a notch for us.

[Dalchar]

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Timaarit wrote:

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Dalcharis wrote: I'm personally guessing the reason furies have BITF is for two reasons: the strongest upfront fastest healing, and the complete lack of defensive utility (other than 1 core priest concentration buff variations we all get), rather than give something defensive to prevent incoming damage, the ability to replace damage was provided.

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So where is templar DPS version of BITF? Templars have no offensive utility so where is it? Or do you mean there is a double standard here? One for templars (= defensive class, no attack capability needed) and one for furies (= offensive class, needs best healing because they have no defensive utility).

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Nope, no double standard, come up with one that makes sense and I'll support ya 100% Timmy!  Nuke that does additional dmg when target is over 50%   I dunno something funky.  Funny thing is that (if I remember right) templars hated having consecrate in beta instead of DA, it got swapped and people still aren't happy   I personally thought consecrate would have been a great addition to the arsenal...and sounds like something a devout priest would have over a pally... but that's just me. I'm just trying to encourage people to look at more than "another heal on a different timer". Yes, it is that, but you have to look at the class itself, what it does and doesn't have, and how things play out based on those.  Focusing entirely on the fact that it is a spell on separate timer doesn't provide any indication of why it may be as such in the first place, when there very well may be a reason for it.  Granting a separate timer heal doesn't strike me as something that'd be just done "just because and to spite everyone else", I don't think the developers actually have it out to make anyone miserable or less desireable.  The way I look at it... Druids look like they take care of healing by replenishing it more with higher hp/s (almost exclusively Directs and regens).  Shamen look to be primarily preventitive (debuffs, wards, slows) to taking care of healing.  Clerics seem to be a combination of extra healing (albeit lamely  lotto), reactionary, and preventative (benefaction? absorbing  hits entirely, reactive heals, stuns, pacifies). I think a neat way to try and alter the lotto heal (that so many seem to hate) would be to maybe look at Fury's Fae Flames honestly though, make it so temps can have people meleeing proc 3 consecutive heals when they hit the mob within the 20s buff duration.  All you gotta do is hit.

[kenji]

Dalcharis told the funny things abt Reverence is great heal .

for a long fight, lets say longer than 3 mins. u play with Reverence and ask the MT to burn 1000 power every 15 sec so it can compare to BITF, the tank must have 4000 power to use every min... must be kidding me, even a priest myself i cant burn 4k power every min and keep it up 3 mins /grin.

as i said in another post (or this...dont wanna look again) Reverence is GREAT when your target isnt Stunned or Stifled or OOP. it's 0 heal if they have 1 of them landed.

u cant spam Reverence on same target and ask him to powerburn all the time.

u cant let 2+ Templar casting Reverence on MT, but u can find 6 fury to cast same BITF on MT.

who still think Reverence is better in any case? except it can cast on self? /grin

and i dont care how weak Fury can buff, if Templar doesnt have better HPS / DPS , we are just a buffbot to boost 1 person (or a few if need aggro switch).

if u are offensive priest, why on earth will have extra healing power to add-up, while defensive priest dont? =)

[Dalchar]

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kenjiso wrote:

Dalcharis told the funny things abt Reverence is great heal .

for a long fight, lets say longer than 3 mins. u play with Reverence and ask the MT to burn 1000 power every 15 sec so it can compare to BITF, the tank must have 4000 power to use every min... must be kidding me, even a priest myself i cant burn 4k power every min and keep it up 3 mins /grin.

as i said in another post (or this...dont wanna look again) Reverence is GREAT when your target isnt Stunned or Stifled or OOP. it's 0 heal if they have 1 of them landed.

u cant spam Reverence on same target and ask him to powerburn all the time.

u cant let 2+ Templar casting Reverence on MT, but u can find 6 fury to cast same BITF on MT.

who still think Reverence is better in any case? except it can cast on self? /grin

and i dont care how weak Fury can buff, if Templar doesnt have better HPS / DPS , we are just a buffbot to boost 1 person (or a few if need aggro switch).

if u are offensive priest, why on earth will have extra healing power to add-up, while defensive priest dont? =)

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My guess was that if you can't prevent it, you throw hp/s at it.  I think that we can all agree that all 6 priests, regardless of what they do or don't have, how effective a soloer or anything else, all priests need to be viable for solo healing a group in 99% of the situations where things are considered a one-group encounter.  As that is their primary function.  My personal guess was that since fury has nothing preventative in nature against high damage mobs (named for example), that the developers chose the route of "throw hp at it" (which is similar to the way wardens heal).  The tank still took the damage, and it's still got to be replaced.  And in a tougher encounter, tiny heals combined with lack of defenses (unless the recast time on the heals were approximately 2-3s), the small heals as they are currently, wouldn't hold up in those tough situations.  The power had to be burned, there was no chance of a lucky lotto, no absorbing of any hits ever, no bigger hp buffer, no several second stun, no pacify named and kill the surrounding mobs, no slows, essentially no nothing.  I think that's why the extra heal was thrown in, for the more challenging 50+ content.  Pre-50, mobs didn't tend to have ice comet, devastation, assassination, or any other odd and end spells that progressively get nastier.  You could argue that we burned the mob down faster... but... I can assure you, I almost never have an opportunity to nuke even once and likely not able to cast a single offensive spell on a tough encounter, and the tank regardless of if the fight lasts 5-10s less, still got the bejesus beaten out of him due to all the lack of defenses.  My regen didn't heal for 1500 in mere seconds when the mob let loose a flurry of attacks, all I really have to depend on are the direct heals. Is that fair, or the right choice?  I'm not sure.  I never claimed all was "fair" and "right".   Some people would argue preventing the damage from happening in the first place is best.  I can tell you I'd not be able to keep a tank up w/o it in poet's palace.  I can just tell you that it's all that allows me to keep a group up and functioning through places like Poet's, and deeper Silent City etc. even with adept3s across the board.  About all I can do is tell you how things pan out for me.  I'm sure several people don't believe it for one minute and regardless of anything don't begin to care, they see something and they demand it, they don't care about any possible reasons why something may be in place or care to contemplate it.  All I can do is try and explain how my class does work (without all the wild claims and misinformation), and read up and try and come up with ideas for why things may be the way they are.  I've never claimed templar didn't need this, that or the other.  I even try to even make suggestions and see what other people may think and maybe get them suggested into the big long list of suggestions you guys have.  Although I don't post them in that thread as I'm not a templar to make the suggestion, and I imagine I would generally would get hollered at regardless... because I don't play that class, ironically though they'll feel free to tell me how my class works and functions because they read all about it and therefore know how everything works all the way up to 60 in even the more rare of circumstances and will further dictate why we do or don't need what we do or don't have.

[Zapo]

---

Dalcharis wrote:

 I can tell you I'd not be able to keep a tank up w/o it in poet's palace.  I can just tell you that it's all that allows me to keep a group up and functioning through places like Poet's, and deeper Silent City etc. even with adept3s across the board. 

---

You know, I read this several times now that some healers (saw it from wardens and furies) are able to keep a group in Poet's Palace alive as only healer in group.

I can tell you, me as a templar, I can't. Maybe it's just me, or that I am "only" 58, or I am simply a bad healer. Although most of my primary heal spells are adept 3 and I don't think I am that bad at doing my job. But I tried and we died 9 times to the named eye (64+++ needed for the access to third floor) trying everything I had in repertoire to keep the tank alive. Maybe it was because we had a lvl 59 paladin (doubt that). But with my current spells there is no way I can keep up with the damage that little eye is doing. And I never was short on power. Maybe sometime if I am lucky and any of those lotto spells triggers.....

btw, have all those ancient spells, not that they do help a lot in there.

P.S. Please don't start now a Fury/Templar flame war again. That is not my intention.

 

Message Edited by Anthur on 11-24-2005 08:07 AM

[kenji]

i agree that Fury should heal the same if Templar can do same dps as Furies but not Furies heal the same as others and out dps everyone.

 

it's plain sux when a Fury can do 300 dps while Templar can only do 100 dps.

 

Ancient Spells should pump the class to better at what they should, not defend their weakness, u can never see Wiz can get a Plate armor buff just to make them survive longer. they got more DPS from their Ancient Spells.

 

Templar is a better in nothing, not better in Heal , not better in DPS , not better in buffs (all priests work completely different)

 

what i dont understand is, if Templar and Fury has same burst heal (some post earlier said they can heal same 8-9k dmg per min) why u only think Fury should get their extra heal, while Templar shouldnt? bigger heal longer recast, smaller heal shorter recast, why should Fury get EXTRA heal? if Fury cant keep up with 2 direct heals, Templar cant keep up as well.

 

Stuns, Slows - this only lower the speed with RH proc. the slower the mob hit, the slower the RH proc, but BETTER for regen heals.

 

str debuffs - this only affect numbers, like 550 becomes 500, 1050 becomes 1000, not working as well as Slow, which drop by %, with the increase of pure melee dps, slow >>>> str debuffs now.

 

with Big Hits, Reactive wont be better than Regen, thus Templar need to burn direct heals while facing Big Hits Named, i am sure Templar wont heal better than Furies on big hits like IceComet / Devastation (group regen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> group reactive in AoE dmg, i think people 200% agree on this.. and Extra Hib?!)

 

templar isnt broken, but just fury too shine, in dps, in burst heal, in group healing.

[kenji]

/Counter Fury mode on

Dalcharis : The power had to be burned, there was no chance of a lucky lotto, no absorbing of any hits ever, no bigger hp buffer, no several second stun, no pacify named and kill the surrounding mobs, no slows, essentially no nothing.

the power

58 Ferine Vim - (Adept III) Increases INT of target by 95. Increases Max Power of target by 646.

 

no chance of a lucky lotto

47 Ferine Mask - (Master 1) Increases in-combat health regen Per-tick of Group member (AE) by 62. Increases mitigation of group members (AE) vs all physical damage by 564.

 

each tick 62 hp, who needs a lotto heal that may proc once or twice a min / fight ?

 

no bigger hp buffer

48 Incomparable Predator - (Master 1) Increases STA + AGI of caster by 90.

 

essentially no nothing

35 Spirit of the Bat - Increase In-Combat power regen

52 Thornskin - Damage Shield

60 Primal Spirit - (Adept III) Increases INT and WIS of group members (AE) by 65. (3 resist every wis, 195 all resist, int boost dmg)

47 Irritating Swarm - (Master 1)Decreases power of trg by 84 every 6 seconds. Interrupts target. Decreases focus of target by 45. Decreases disruption, ordination, ministration and subjugation of target by 23.

 

u seriously playing a fury? or u dont think they are advantage? the more DPS your group doing the faster the fight end, the less heals required, the less power burnt by group, the more time u gain to rest which does have extra regen value due to SoE's setting.

 

HP buffs isnt a reason furies get so much extras

[quetzaqotl]

Man, pick some nice spells from the fury line and dont compare em against templar spells yes thats the right way to go.

 

ferine vim takes 1 conc yes we buff int

 

Inc pred is self only and crap sta and agi even +90 doesnt increase anything much try it yourself its kind of useless.

 

Thornskin yes our offensive utility yay

 

Primal spirit yes we buff int and wis again

 

Irritating swarm is crap it doesnt do anything against mobs its a useless spell and you made me laugh cause if you read the fury boards youd know this ones crap, in pvp its cool tho but against mobs its useless its a big nerf compared to how cool this one was.

 

What extras do we get kenj I havent seen you post any templar spells to compare we dont have more spells than templars do we?

Its cool you at least took the effort to look up spells but looking at things on paper doesnt make it great in game.

Also you should take that /counter fury mode off that isnt so nice is it?

Also saying furies shine to much isnt even a very well veiled call for a nerf, you can do what you want but maybe you should focus you attention on your own class or perhaps compare yourself to another healer class as I dont see many healers unhappy on the boards except for templars.

Furies are the target of a lot of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on these boards and it has to stop you might believe we are overpowered and want us getting nerfed or whatever but maybe you should try and compare yourself to other classes who have other things over templars hmm maybe better debuffs omg no another class overpowered compared to templars or perhaps have more effeciency.

You begin with thinking everyone has the same stuff templars have and the speciality another class has, furies for instance: added dmg is an extra we get on top of our templar skills.

That is bs if some spells are broken go and try to get those fixed as you have a different toolbox than furies have.

All healers have the same ammount of spells we dont have anything extra over you if we have an offensive oreintated spell you can bet your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you have another spell to counter that (some spells are maybe underpowered or not working as intended so try and get your act together to get those spells fixed).

 

 

Templars are more set up for preventing dmg and buffing defense (no I dont mean the stat def but defensivish spells) furies do more offensively.

Put some templar spells next to the fury spells and lets see which ones are cooler, as this is a bit silly. 

Message Edited by quetzaqotl on 11-24-2005 06:51 PM

[Dalchar]

---

kenjiso wrote:

/Counter Fury mode on Well this sounds kinda rude when I'm attempting to be pleasant.

Dalcharis : The power had to be burned, there was no chance of a lucky lotto, no absorbing of any hits ever, no bigger hp buffer, no several second stun, no pacify named and kill the surrounding mobs, no slows, essentially no nothing.

the power

58 Ferine Vim - (Adept III) Increases INT of target by 95. Increases Max Power of target by 646. This is the reason there's no big hp buffer

 

no chance of a lucky lotto

47 Ferine Mask - (Master 1) Increases in-combat health regen Per-tick of Group member (AE) by 62. Increases mitigation of group members (AE) vs all physical damage by 564.

 

each tick 62 hp, who needs a lotto heal that may proc once or twice a min / fight ? This is the only defensive buff furies get, it's a variation on the same one all priests get.  And I've mentioned it before as the only buff before albeit maybe not in this post or directly.  Nor do I believe it is that 62 hp every 3s it's like very 6.

 

no bigger hp buffer

48 Incomparable Predator - (Master 1) Increases STA + AGI of caster by 90. Self only buff

 

essentially no nothing

35 Spirit of the Bat - Increase In-Combat power regen

52 Thornskin - Damage Shield

60 Primal Spirit - (Adept III) Increases INT and WIS of group members (AE) by 65. (3 resist every wis, 195 all resist, int boost dmg)

47 Irritating Swarm - (Master 1)Decreases power of trg by 84 every 6 seconds. Interrupts target. Decreases focus of target by 45. Decreases disruption, ordination, ministration and subjugation of target by 23. None of these actively prevent your tank from getting smacked for full--an interrupt is not a stun and you'll also notice if you check various other forums, disruption, etc debuffs affect nearly nothing unless it's pvp.

 

u seriously playing a fury? Since Day 1, thank you. or u dont think they are advantage Did I ever once claim everything was 100% blanaced?? the more DPS your group doing the faster the fight end, the less heals required, the less power burnt by group, the more time u gain to rest which does have extra regen value due to SoE's setting.

 

HP buffs isnt a reason furies get so much extras

---

As I said, none of this is going to change the tank from not getting smacked or decreaseing incoming dps at all.  The fight may last 5-10s less than the 30s it may normally have taken.  In the mean time the tank is taking the full damage at all times, that was the key point I was tring to make.  That was my possible suggestion as to why things may be the way they are.  I'm not saying everything is the way it should be by any means.  All I've been suggesting is things I observe within my class based on playing it daily since day 1 and then  things I've learned and read about from other players and guildies.  I'm not trying to tell you how everything should be or what's needed by others.  Or that everything's just fine and dandy, I'm telling you what I observe. Now if you really really wanna compare...These 5 provide additional healing or halt incoming dps.  Now, if they're effective as they should be, is another matter but that's not the heart of the matter.  These are all different spell lines, sorry I didn't go through and include ancients and include everything, but you get the idea. Sign of Weakness Placate Mark of Princes Vigilant Benediction Force Submission Those are 5 spells that in addition to the Bravery/Valor line (The fury's variation of this line is the Ferine Mask you pointed out) that decrease incoming dps on your tank/party or alternatively can randomly add some healing.  Plus the HP buffer that Clerics provide instead of power, however, power has to be spent to be of use, you can argue til you're blue in the face which would be better

Message Edited by Dalcharis on 11-24-2005 07:07 PM

[Dalchar]

---

Anthur wrote:

---

Dalcharis wrote: I can tell you I'd not be able to keep a tank up w/o it in poet's palace.  I can just tell you that it's all that allows me to keep a group up and functioning through places like Poet's, and deeper Silent City etc. even with adept3s across the board. 

---

You know, I read this several times now that some healers (saw it from wardens and furies) are able to keep a group in Poet's Palace alive as only healer in group.

I can tell you, me as a templar, I can't. Maybe it's just me, or that I am "only" 58, or I am simply a bad healer. Although most of my primary heal spells are adept 3 and I don't think I am that bad at doing my job. But I tried and we died 9 times to the named eye (64+++ needed for the access to third floor) trying everything I had in repertoire to keep the tank alive. Maybe it was because we had a lvl 59 paladin (doubt that). But with my current spells there is no way I can keep up with the damage that little eye is doing. And I never was short on power. Maybe sometime if I am lucky and any of those lotto spells triggers.....

btw, have all those ancient spells, not that they do help a lot in there.

P.S. Please don't start now a Fury/Templar flame war again. That is not my intention.

 

Message Edited by Anthur on 11-24-2005 08:07 AM

---

Actually you will notice a huge difference based on your tank, I have close calls even with a fully fabled tank, with him at 60.  I'd give it another shot if your tank is cobalt+fabled geared and 60.  it's rather surprisingly night and day as to what spells and combat arts land when you get to 60, I noticed and so did several guildies.  The sub 60 tank we needed a second healer but still couldn't do the top floor named, the 60 tank I was able to do it all alone, but those guys are also geared very nicely too.  But yes, I'd never be able to solo heal on the named cyclops or the eye w/o BITF.  The fully fabled tank goes from full green to orange or red in a matter of about 2 seconds.

[kenji]

group WIS buff is actually cutting down the dmg with it's resist gained. templar has 1, but it only work on 1 target.

 

if the Fury believe that nothing is 100% balanced, then there IS actually a best healer. and ATM, the best "healer" clearly is Fury.

 

the best buffbot maybe templar, but i dont have interest to be one

 

Sign of Weakness -- currently this 1 prevent aoe... and after it breaks sometimes will charge u (maybe intented, maybe bugged), so u mez a boss and this happen you are 100% dead
Placate -- emergency spell...recast...mystic one is stun....pacify doesnt stop casting.
Mark of Princes -- doesnt proc if not melee... and u have to play with lotto
Vigilant Benediction -- lotto absorber... which i never read "the hit is absorbed for xx dmg" ... sounds different to ward... and it's not yet work .... on Test : The proc from Unyielding Benediction will once again absorb physical attacks. (which... T5 and T6 results same proc %... same use...)

Force Submission -- good stun i must say, 30 sec recast, 3 sec cast, stun for 8 sec at M1?

anyways...stun is good idea, and pacify is good, but if the mob is stunned, Reactive Heals wont proc, and wasted. stop the DPS from mobs also stop the HPS from us. so good for templar? maybe. or not.

 

we have the same HPS with base direct heal, but u got an extra heal now... if u still claim we are balanced, fine. if the lack of defensive buffs can ask for extra heals, i think the lack of DPS from templar can also ask for extra buffs... but then fury will ask for utilties boost? we will  Never balanced. why must our healing ability balanced?

[Timaarit]

---

quetzaqotl wrote:

Man, pick some nice spells from the fury line and dont compare em against templar spells yes thats the right way to go.

---

How about Spirit of the Bat vs. templar spell? Furies get an incombat power reg. What do templars get? A very small heal that gives some power back to caster. But - like most templar spells, it is useless in real situation since it shares the timer with out other single target heal. And btw, nice for you to give such a good comparison of fury and templar spells and then criticizing others for doing the same as you...

[Timaarit]

---

Dalcharis wrote Sign of Weakness Placate Mark of Princes Vigilant Benediction Force Submission Those are 5 spells that in addition to the Bravery/Valor line (The fury's variation of this line is the Ferine Mask you pointed out) that decrease incoming dps on your tank/party or alternatively can randomly add some healing.  Plus the HP buffer that Clerics provide instead of power, however, power has to be spent to be of use, you can argue til you're blue in the face which would be better

Message Edited by Dalcharis on 11-24-2005 07:07 PM

---

With Sign and Force Submission, a templar can keep one target out of fight for a while, at lvl 55 I can keep it off from fight for good with those 2 spells. Unless someone misses the macros /gsay. But then if I get aggro from this, I have to start swithching targets from mt to this one and if I can do that, well, then that one is not actually anything to worry so the mezzing is useless. And if I need to heal mt, well, then I really cannot start soloing with add. These are fun to play with for a few fights, but in the end, the mez are useless. I still use the stun to reduce targets DPS, but then again, this means that my core healing will not work while target is stunned since the mob is not hitting. How useful... Mark line is a divine resist debuff and gives some minor lotto healing (30 / 2s at 55 and adept III). Vigilant benediction doesn't even work, it will be patched in lu17. But yet another lottery spell. As for Placate, every priest gets an aggro reducer so this is not a templar only spell.

[Dalchar]

---

kenjiso wrote:

we have the same HPS with base direct heal, but u got an extra heal now... if u still claim we are balanced, fine. if the lack of defensive buffs can ask for extra heals, i think the lack of DPS from templar can also ask for extra buffs... but then fury will ask for utilties boost? we will  Never balanced. why must our healing ability balanced?

---

I didn't claim balance was achieved, not once.  Just how things at least seem to work within my own class and illustrate it's probably not always heal = heal and dps out = dps in or stun = invis, or leather options = plate options.  Perhaps maybe more along the lines of what I'm thinking is what things seem to look more like EQ2 is TRYING to do is:  excessive healing (druid)= prevenative healing (shaman) = preventative buffs/lotto heals/react (cleric).  That's just how things seem to be looking set up.  Warden base heals heal for about 25% more over a duration than templars (33% more than fury until 52 where furies start being anywhere between base state and warden) with the two direct heal lines.  But we all watched what happened when their heal = templar heal, they slowly watched tanks die, almost 100% of the time, unless the mob was like, green to the tank.  So what works for one class, may not work or suffice for another. And yes I fully support that lotto = lame boring buffing and something more reliable should be in place.  I'd also fully support pacifies and stuns being worked over too, as half the problem seems to arise from how effective they seem to be.  You'll also note that a lot of the fury community is generally rather pleasant and generally level-headed, and would fully support templars getting altered as necessary.  What they don't like, is being told what they can or cannot do by those whom don't have the full story or accurrate information or only take things at complete face value w/o looking farther than the nose.  Just because someone ran a parser and presents it as fact, doesn't mean everything you need to know to evaluate how those results were obtained and what's balanced. Right now though, I think all priests should be happy they heal enough that groups can and do succeed, even if things aren't quite right... there's like 3-4 classes that lack sorely in their primary function (assassins doing only fighter-ish dps and enchanters generaly lame in about 90% of everything) before we worry immensely about balancing, they need to get those classes to actually function LOL.

Message Edited by Dalcharis on 11-25-2005 03:19 AM

[Zapo]

Ok, as final update on Poet's Palace. We did succeed yesterday. Solution was easy, we included a Warden (54) into the group. This time it was a good but sure fight (no death at all against the eye). Only time I really felt that I as a Templar  was needed in that special fight was when the eye did some spike damage (which usually seems to be at around 40% health or below). I casted my direct heals ( as slow as ever) and we managed the situation. Kept up my regens and other lotto spells during the fight anyway but they didn't do much at all. Btw, paladin was 60 now, but same gear as before (was already legendary, like rest of group too, only very few fabled items per character).

So my conclusion for this fight is that the Templar is a good secondary healer. But you need a different healer class to do that fight with one healer (warden or fury seems to be ok). That feeling I got in many tough fights, which are not doable with a templar only but when a different healer is included there isn't much left to do for the Templar.

Anyway, this doesn't really prove anything. Just a personal report from a special encounter. In my oppinion only developers have the means to do real tests in order to compare different healer classes in different situations. All that we can do is provide very situational data/input.

P.S. Looks like even SOE tried to bribe me. A no-trade fabled plate helm dropped. Helm of True Insight if I remember correct (was late). It' a better helm than the cobalt helm as it has more WIS, resists and other stats but has about 9 Int less than the cobalt one. So now I can also swap my helm for solo (cobalt) and group (fabled) too.

 

[SirStike]

Borekai wrote:

 

Furies are the best healers.  Gratz.  Doesn't mean you aren't balanced in your own right. 

You are just the best healers.  And have the best DPS.  And the best utility.  Triple Gratz.

__________________________________________________ _______________________

 

 

Nice that you think Furies are best healers in game.  Was just glad that we were made more group worthy.  Furies were a secondary thought as a group healer prior to expansion.   Nice to be on same level for a change, which is what I am  sensing the Templars are most unhappy about.   

 

As for DPS, we always did have the bigger nukes in the game for healers, so that hasnt changed, just got more damage output, but I think all healers nukes got increased to some capacity post expansion, didn't they?.    And while we have good Nukes, we have crap for debuffs, so when mob hits us, we getting the full damage the mob is offering, not a debuffed version of it.

 

And best utility?  You talking group invis.  Honestly, you can have it.  Its more of a curse than a blessing.  I would take the ability to call home whenever I want, vs. waiting an hour or running back through the zones.   I can't count how many wasted hours doing quests we wasted running across zones because my timers we just used getting a update.    And group invis was also a huge time waster.  Lets see how many trips I have taken guild groups down to Naggy in SE, only to wipe because someone broke invis half way down, and we have to do run all over.  Not to forget, that during the prismatic runs, was taking guildies down daily, because Invis Totems were not available, so there was not alot of options for them.  If that is the same benefit you were talking about I would gladly trade now, as invis totems are safer, easier, and really makes this benefit Furies have with group invis alot less of a benefit. 

 

 

Hellion lvl58 Fury

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andu]

Take a look at this thread from the Abilities forum.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=70101

The emphasis is on enchanters/bards not being required and so noone has even mentioned healing in particular.

Now look at how many of those suggestions include fury and how many include other healing classes.

The fact is, whether it's merely perceived or not, furies are being picked over other healing classes on a regular basis because of their DPS. The fact their healing is 5%, 10% even 20% worse (which it isn't) than other healers is of total irrelevance because most mobs get dropped so fast it makes no difference.

[quetzaqotl]

Well they mentioned a templar in there too noone mentioned a warden, mystic, defiler or an inquisitor guess theyre more broken than templars then eh?

If someone starts building a group with mages and a dps tank like a bruiser people add things to it sure if you group with a couple of mages it's not strange that you want a fury for the int buffs when your grouping with more than 2 mages.

If the group ste up is fury friendly sure go with a fury but there are different circumstances where another healer would shine more.

Also who died and made them god btw? So if 4 people pick a fury  cause the previous poster had a fury in group, does that prove anything?

No dont think so, nice of you to drag a thread in here guess youll now link the thread of the perfect raid force:  8 bruisers+16 furies and say how unbeatable that is lol.

People are blinded.

And again maybe it would be fun to try and compare yourself to another healing class who think theyre fine, cause that would make em overpowered eh.

Hmm maybe do a templars vs inq comparison or maybe against a defiler or mystic or whatever as this whole fury do more dps and heal like templars bs is getting stale.

Message Edited by quetzaqotl on 11-25-2005 05:10 AM

[Timaarit]

---

quetzaqotl wrote:

If the group ste up is fury friendly sure go with a fury but there are different circumstances where another healer would shine more.

---

But that wouldn't be a good xp group then anymore. Fact no. 1: for XP setup, brawler tank is best. Fact no. 2 :  fury is by far the best healer for brawler class.

[quetzaqotl]

Oh my then its not the furies fault then I blame those pesky brawlers!

Really now tim :smileyvery-happy: